Episode 163 – Medicinal Mycology, Neurogenesis, Psychedelics, Kundalini Awakening w/ Clint Ginn

tonight is mr. Clinton again Clint is an entrepreneur mushroom farmer and my ecology lab tech he is the director of a commercial spawn and research laboratory Clint acquired his degree in psychology from Arizona State University and he worked as a counselor with at-risk youth

which after six years convinced him of the futility of the current paradigm of mental health care he went on to become a medicinal mycologist in 2009 and has spent more than ten years using what he learned to ready some of the pain he witnessed in the mental health fields

Clint it's a pleasure welcome to hxp hi thanks for having me it's pleasure to be here so Clint I mean you've got some really amazing story and an amazing beard which I've got on the screen that people can see let's I mean the world seems like it's in complete chaos right

now but let's let's talk a little bit about your history how you got to where you are your experience with psychology and you know what was the turning point for you that turned the corner and how did you get into medicinal mycology specifically please so my entire life

coming up as a teenager and going into university was bent on how can I help how can I serve and through circumstances of different anthea epi in genic plants and my experience is working in the mental health field eventually came to medicinal mycology at

the age of essentially 28 so there's old 10 years before that of how I got to become so dedicated to psychedelic medicine and the mushrooms in general okay and so what were some of the things that you were seeing in the mental health field with Western medicine where

you felt like okay this is this is wrong you know what where did you how did you feel you know how did you start Seve that with the work that you were doing the people that you were working with who were you working with kids right yeah so I ended up working with

the younger set of kids generally just naturally having a general gentle way about me so I was working with children young boys is at the age of six and a lot of these people young men came from horrible traumatic columns and experiences and I realized that a lot of

what we were doing was warehousing and feeding you know pharmaceuticals in a maintenance level thing and there's a lot of compassion in that and that but if that does take a toll on you because you ought to be making you know the world a better place you wanted to be

making a difference in people's lives but you find that what the situation is in the current paradigm is really just a warehousing and institutionalization of these young Souls yeah I mean there's something about Western medicine that is so robotic and you know it it seems like

what Western medicine seeks to do is treat symptoms they're not looking at the root causes of what is causing mental illness or and or any of this dysfunction you know it's about sort of treating the symptoms and you know mandating it as much as possible and

then just sending you on your way until next month right so fundamentally we're working on a cognitive behavioral therapy program where you know it's a five star program it's the field as you can imagine you get so many stars for doing X tasks and

you get you know an A and you get you know so many goodie points but what you're talking about when it comes to it an actual human being is their emotional well-being and their their experience of life and have found that the pharmaceutical route and the cognitive

behavioral therapy Rob in the sense of how it's being implemented in these institutional grade halfway houses or what have you for these children is it's just it's lacking and it's really not something to say that it's not given that the people that work there aren't

don't have hearts of gold and then the finest effort is being made but me personally needed to look for something more and the emotional trauma and how do you heal that and how do you go back into that that's something that isn't inside the paradigm of Western medicine

that's where you look into an Theo botany and entheogens and essentially the psilocybin mushroom to find how can we go into an experience that allows you to explore these things from the different perspectives and potentially have some really breakthrough healing

and that's where what's really been driving me over the last 10 years all right I love that I love that Segway let's get into that let's let's get into mushrooms okay so you know psilocybin is I've heard it being used in micro dosing quite a bit and there are some

breakthrough studies I mean I know that it creates something called neurogenesis in the brain so let's let's talk about that a little bit I mean why did you pick psilocybin and mushrooms specifically why not I you asked I went on DMT why not something else well the beauty of

psilocybin is that it is a very low-cost option and very amenable to an average person growing their own medicine it doesn't emit require an admixture it doesn't require a laboratory also it's very healing and natural the compound psilocybin and the way that it breaks

down in the body is very much close to the actual human biochemistry so it's not something in the realm of a research chemical or pharmaceutical it's actually something it's just quite natural and easy so it lends itself fairly easily to these types of applications now the

mental health aspect or the different things these are a little bit more deeper contexts that we can go into mm-hmm okay okay so let's say you know let's say that I come to you and I say hey Clint you know I'm I feel like I'd like to explore this as an avenue that I

want to go down as far as using psychedelics using mush psychedelic mushrooms to help me cope with a trauma that that I've had in my life where where would we go from that point well right now these substances are all Schedule one and prohibited

through the war on drugs but I do work for as a chief operating officer for a nonprofit called pledge which does provide sponsorship to people for people to attend legal and safe and supportive retreats where they can do psilocybin assisted therapy so that's a good place

to start is pledged org and what I would recommend is that if you are very much committed to doing the healing because you can't save a drowning person regardless of the addiction or the trauma or what have you person that has to personally hit their

own rock bottom admit that they want to do the work to do that like that's the thing that I mmm is the issue with all treatments and with all mental health applications be the pharmaceutical talk therapy psilocybin what have you is that the willingness of the participant to

get better and to do their own journey of healing is absolutely paramount so if you did come to me and you were consistent and and really wanting to see this through because it is not the easiest way to go about it I think that the limit ating limitation filter on

psilocybin assisted therapy is people's willingness to actually doing the work beyond that if you are willing to come in and do the work the trauma was so bad the pain was so fronting the depression the anxiety it was hitting you at such a hard point then I would absolutely

recommend you to several the retreats that we work with worldwide where we can help you get into the place where you need to be to have a supportive set and setting with the right organic mushroom type material for you to do not have the experience and potentially have some

breakthrough insights okay and you know yeah I agree I agree with you I think it's important to be at a certain point where you're willing to do the work there's no magic pill or magic bullet or magic mushroom that will you know automatically fix

things for you you know in your brain you have to be willing to sort of go to the gym and lift the weights you know in your mind and so you know but but I you know how do we how do we start to understand the grips of trauma I mean what is the mushroom doing that

traditional psychology that traditional medicine Western medicine where is it failing that the mushroom is succeeding the how is beyond me but the what it is and how it works in the sense of how you experience it the human mind the human psyche has an ability to bury Trung we

all know this and accept this this is like essentially a scientific psychological fact that a certain level of trauma becomes too much for the organism to maintain in their conscious awareness so it's suppressed into the subconscious now what happens in a

psilocybin assistive therapy session where the psilocybin activates the 5-htt to a 5ht - hey receptors and starts to really activate that prefrontal cortex essentially taking psilocybin is a lot like turning up the volume on your your mental device from about 75 to about 95

98 I'm not gonna say it's a hundred because that would be essentially approaching infinity but if it takes you to the point of maximum awareness and a lot of times if the sentence setting in the context and the intention is to approach that awareness into your own

personal evolution of who you are and why you are sitting where you are emotionally or addictively or life circumstance the ability of the mind to experience and remember and the perspective change that that allows it's kind of like viewing your life from a

hundred feet up or a thousand feet up from balloon and saying there's a level of things that I hadn't seen before and so oftentimes people have traumatic memories that you know they repress that come back up and then they're able to look at them at the same time that same

perspective allows you to look at the perpetrator or the situation or whatever you are in and realize that that was also those people working on that same level so it has this wonderful ability of giving you the perspective to say there's not so much blame and anger

there either there's just a situation that happened and then there's the healing that needs to happen in response and that's the next stage of it when you come out of the therapy when you're done with the afterglow because psilocybin and the psychedelics are one of the most

potent denta anti-inflammatories known to science so a lot of the afterglow a lot of the positive effects that are experienced in the realms of depression and mood altering things are the anti-inflammatory compounds so if you imagine your inflammation response being

brought down to close to zero the feelings are amazing particularly for older individuals like myself I mean I'm not too old I'm 40 but I do deal with chronic inflammatory conditions and so the feeling of being 1415 physically and that afterglow well that feels wonderful

but that does fade and so what then is left is the psychological care is the mental health aspect is what we call integration psychedelic integration okay that's that's fascinating so it so there's a process of making the experience somewhat neutral in the mind

but also there is an aspect of kind of opening a closet door where we buried our trauma and then turning on the light and maybe taking out one piece of trauma at a time so that you can look at it from you know 360 degrees 100 feet up and you're examining it in a way that

you know is is a way that you can process more clearly better in a higher perspective maybe so that you're not taking on this victim role you know this happened to me and you know poor me kind of thing sure you know therapies like the Maps protocol on the MDMA do a

really good strong response on the amygdala to remove fear response for particularly things like PTSD but I feel and it's been my experience that also psilocybin and these other hallucinogens ayahuasca LSD you name it these classic ones can also be effective in similar

roles as far as getting different perspective getting a higher perspective so yeah okay so I mean there's there's five that I know about on the planet that are capable of neurogenesis and amongst other things that happen within the synapses in the brain there's

a osku LSD i boga psilocybin I'm not sure if I'm missing DMT ayahuasca same I mean pretty much the same thing I'm not sure if I'm missing one in there somewhere but there's only a few of these compounds that exist on the planet I mean I'm not sure I mean you've

probably heard of this before but in the 1990s you know there was just campaigns just say no to drugs and as you know the war on drugs abject failure and there was these scientists these neuro scientists are pitching this idea of the brain being this static thing that once

you eliminated you know these brain cells gray matter whatever once you killed these neuro transmitters they would never go back you know it was very scary phenomena there is I don't know if you remember the commercials like there they had this chick with cooking eggs

she's like slamming the oven I don't know if you remember that I had police officers in my classroom you know with the DARE program and all of that screaming us you know wearing their full gear with you know weapons and it's very intimidating and it's it's very

inappropriate to have an armed officer in your classroom I don't care what the context is but yes absolutely the complete opposite is actually actually true in that psilocybin mushrooms plus these other compounds ayahuasca not to denigrate or

take away from any of them but particularly psilocybin because it is so natural and goes through the system in such a clear way it's very similar to DMT in ayahuasca is also a dying novel tryptamine no carrying the thing so it does stimulate neurogenesis and then

there is the Stamets tak which is a you know a catchphrase that is catched on because her aciem and these Lions Mane's type mushrooms also have these nerve growth factors so you can do certain mushroom stacks and adaptogens to actually stimulate neurogenesis which is

growing of your brain and and the different nerve cells and this is treating things even into things like MS and people that are having nerve growth problems throughout their entire body so yes this is absolutely a revelation that is happening over the last couple years

and thank God for it so I took my hat to all of the institutions that have been doing their work at John Hopkins and why you you know UCLA at AG nauseam yeah because they have definitely shown us unequivocally with functional MRIs and what-have-you the to the general

population that yes this does work these things that people have been talking about in the realms of creativity in the realms of micro dosing and you know creativity and business ideas like in the realms like Apple and jobs in Silicon Valley now we have the

scientific fact and protocol to back that up and so it's on the onus of the producers of these materials these things to produce a good product and so we're just getting into that we're just exploring that space right now as we speak yeah I mean this this has become

sort of an echo on this show is because I believe so much in psychedelic medicine that you know I bring on guests after guests that preaches this at this point and you know we've had Rick Doblin on the show Rick Strassman we've had all these people on

the show and you know rick has as you know I mean he's got a really fascinating story where he was down at New College in Florida and he said regardless of you know what the law says or regardless of what happens to us we are going to do this work we're going to

make sure that this work happens and that humanity has access to this so you know in my own personal belief I feel that you know psychedelics are not for everyone I mean I don't think any everyone should just be doing it and going out and looking for this as a

cure-all as I said and let's I think we should clarify this I think that you know I think the correct setting having you know a licensed therapist with you is so crucial to this process being in the right setting and around the right people that know how to hold that space

for you is so important yes that's been one of the most beautiful revelations that's happened in the last I'd say really only the last two or three years has been they focus on having someone there with you who's either experienced or has the right

ability to deal with the situation an absolutely experience is is a prerequisite so the thing that I work on is on the people's aspect the people's healing movement I call it the right to heal movement I say when we're talking about plant medicines be they fungal or

ayahuasca or what have you this these are natural compounds that the earth is freely provided for the legal structure to have put them in the category of verboten and prohibited is absolutely insane so the decriminalized nature movement is something I am a thousand

percent high the decriminalized Denver situation really was a nuclear explosion that rounded throughout the universe it was such a massive breakthrough so my hats are off to all of the people involved with that and they are building upon that but we can come back to that the

issue is that these things are natural and something that as Terence Mckenna would say are something that has been in our diet for as long as humans have been on this planet and it's something that really when you talk into micro dosing when you talk into the psychedelic

experience of going deeper and as we know as being experienced there are different levels of how you can use this so the lab coat medicalization model of psychedelic therapy is absolutely beautiful and warranted and they are paving the road for the regular human

common person to have access but what I and others are very much considered concerned with is the ability for people to have low-cost access to you know I'm not going to name prices or get into it but essentially what we're talking about is a generational healing that is a

potential in that that has ripple effects that can go beyond what we could even imagine so if you look at the generational trauma you know Gavin mate' who I believe you've had on your show Zoomers times yeah has been wonderfully expounding that the relationships of

emotional trauma and how that compounds generationally and transforms into addictions and maladaptive behaviors and so well we have to do I strongly believe is allow people to get into the emotional trauma healing space and the only way to do that that

I've experienced and I've been doing this for 20 years I've been looking I've been searching of them doing what I can is through the entheogens and it's right there it's right there and it's free nature provides it lovingly and beautifully it does need to be curated

as much as I am for people having open access and then living their lives and going to festivals and enjoying themselves that's absolutely a part of the beautiful existence that we live there is a therapeutic aspect where it does need to be tightly controlled and

if do and so as much as we need licensed social workers and PhDs to be working with the hardest of the hard cases we also need open access to where people can go where people have that right vision I mean there is not a degree problem I know that they do exist and

they are being built right now but this is a paradigm that is a people's healing movement and so if you have a quote-unquote grandmotherly way about you and you are able to deal and process and sit with someone then you are qualified to be doing psilocybin

assisted therapy to a certain degree with a certain amount of training with a short amount of experience yeah I mean there was a guest that we had on the show and he he I mean he one of his quotes is as as long as nature is illegal humans will never be free I

could not agree more than that Clinton I want to switch gears a little bit I mean in the in the title for this show I put community awakening I I want to talk about this because in my in Mike onik personal experience this is something that I I would say suffered from I think

you would have a different perspective but you know I did have a spontaneous Kundalini awakening in my 20s I'm in my 30s now and so I mean it was it was it changed the trajectory of my life forever I mean I can feel it now sort of resonating in my back and I mean it

opened these channels that I never even knew really existed I was just you know sort of meditating quite a bit and so this is something that you list like sort of in your bio it's a feature it's listed there so I wanna I want to cover it you know I want to cover

Kundalini you have a different perspective right so what you know why don't you tell us when you share about your perspective on Kundalini yeah thank you I mean it's something that happened to me when I was 23 years old I am 39 now so this was something that I have

lived with and moved through and Beyond but I wouldn't say that it was a negative experience at all so I was absolutely looking for a Kundalini awakening I had only been studying yoga and meditation for about four to six months when it happened so there are

certain hacks and things that you can do to create this process and I'm more than happy to talk about that personally maybe not something that I want to broadcast online but the experience itself as far as raising your kundalini energy through your crown chakra and and

dispelling all disbelief that you possibly had about the potential of this human experience is something that I would never give back regardless of whatever else happened so you know to be fair I felt like a flower blooming in the desert because as it as a matter of

fact this occurred in a strip mall in Mesa Arizona which is the East Valley Phoenix which is essentially a strip mall at the strip mall it's dusty and it's hot and it's not exactly like the most aesthetic little beatific mountainside that you would imagine this

happening so when I looked around and I looked to my community there was no community and to be fair that was my own experience and there are people in Phoenix and there are people that hold this that space and that have that experience but when I was there and when

that happened I would I felt very much alone and so it was very scary and given that I was born in a Western philosophical context in the sense of the judeo-christian religion I did go through a sense of megalomania I thought like well well here we are this is

enlightenment and I guess I'm like you know the neck the noon coming which was hilarious you know in retrospect but for about a couple weeks there I really had to deal with grapple with that and so that brings me to you know where I come at this point at the age of almost forty

looking at the teachings of Alan Watts or around us or Krishnamurti are all these beautiful teachers that are all available to us at any time to say yeah well actually that happens quite a bit I mean quite a bit meaning probably less than 1% of the average population but it

what my message in my experience is that it's actually quite easy and it's it's quite a beautiful experience that anyone should have so I mean feel free to give me some feedback on that to have your experience because you know there are a lot of details and intricacies so I'll

lead out from Seco I mean I do my best to not make the show about me but I mean I'll share this story which I wouldn't ever think to share you know in a live broadcast but for me I was just meditating you know very very heavily just asking really big

questions like why are we here is there a god what happens when we die just meditating every single day you know sometimes I would come home from class and just met go into my room and meditate meditate meditate every single day I did this and I remember one day I

was I was I was living at my parents place at the time and I was walking into my bedroom and I my whole body just locked up like it was just completely locked up and I fell and luckily my bed was right there to my left and I and I fell to my left and when I hit the bed I

shot out of my body like completely out of my body and I'm sort I start feeling this like sort of like I'm going up you know and I mean I'm this sort of newb I've never studied this I had never heard the term Kundalini before I didn't even know what that was

so to me I'm like losing my mind you know while this is happening and as as I'm sort of ascending I mean that's what was happening I was feeling this rising sensation I'm seeing these little bubbles all around me and I recognized them as my other incarnations and

they're telling me you know congratulations welcome and above me I see this larger sort of bubble this higher self bubble I guess and and I eventually sort of rise all the way up until I merge into the bubble and it starts showing me these different

visions I'm seeing like this geometry in my mind and it was bananas in my experience and one of the things that it showed me it was odd we won't go there but you know for me it was it was pretty traumatizing just because I didn't know how to process any of that and you know

there was no literature online at the time there was nothing I didn't have any frame of reference of okay like this is what happened to you so this is what you should look for I just thought I was going insane so you know it took me a long time just

to get to a point where I understood what was going on and you know so it it I think you know I meet a lot of people in my line of work and just running this show and I think maybe I've met you know 11 or 12 people not even that that say that they you know their Kundalini is

awake and they have had a you know either spontaneous or purposeful awakening yeah Wow that's beautiful and yes it is quite rare and that is the question that I've always asked myself is that if it's so spontaneous and for me I wouldn't say I mean easy is such a

catch-all phrase I had started meditating at the age of 13 under to the direction of my stepfather and he had a guru and I was listening to the Grateful Dead at the age of 8 so that a huge influence I joke but you know I had prepared myself and always looked in

that realm of way things would go and I read autobiography of a yogi' and that influenced me as a young man and all these things but what I realized was that the the paradigm is supreme effort with ultimate release and you can do the yoga I mean for instance I was

practicing Kundalini Yoga which was brought to the US by yogi bhajan yogi bhajan and he came to America under death threats from the people that he essentially quote-unquote stole these sacred kriyas and or practices from to bring them to the United States and so when I

actually raised my Kundalini using the set and the setting and the indoctrinate indoctrination the the instructions of this yoga it was quite alarming to me because again I had grown up in a judeo-christian mindset where this is not actually something that we deal with

because in the way that is talked biblically currently in the realm of modern Christianity in America is that Jesus is pedestal eyes and that these types of experiences are not really for the common human so that's why the experience immediately catapulted me

into a sense of megalomania rather than into a sense of in the Eastern tradition of saying yes congratulations welcome to the team right as something along the lines of what Alan Watts would say so my experience in the sense was very much along the lines of Alex gray in when I

pulled my Kundalini you know purposefully meditatively through my crown chakra I got to follow it it came up through each one on my chakras it's at sat in my heart for a long time and had to work with all kinds of problems in their itch which continues to this

day and we could talk about that because I feel that psilocybin is absolutely something that is a heart opener that is something that is absolutely required for us to move forward but I did bring it up my crown chakra and through all of the central channels through my third

eye and then it raised up through the front of my head and up through the top of my head and into a basically a beatific geometric vision of a bunch of orange and yellow colored eyeballs and this was this is a closed eye vision to which I completely at that moment stop

the process so I do not continue and go off into Samadhi or into some Satori realms I'd rather just opened the gate and looked inside and as a skittish young man with no ones no concept basically shut the door but that has lived with me and I have to continue to

develop that relationship for the last you know 15 plus years huh Wow amazing amazing story I you know I would just say for anyone listening to this I do not recommend purposely awakening your Kundalini until you turn 50 or 60 years old just wait you have to learn to

become enlightened there's no rush you don't need to run and chase that it ends wakening your Kundalini will not bring you closer to that so yeah so that's like let me just love that topic like spiritual bypass spiritual materialism right so as a 23 year old

and I'm sure you're young men as well like it doesn't necessarily serve you if you don't have the integration it's a lot like psilocybin and sister therapy you can have these peak experiences but what you really need to do is be a good person

and make sure your garbage gets taken out on time and your bills are paid and then you show up to work and then you're friendly and because that's the day to day life and that is the spiritual life like ultimately they're all one in the same but it absolutely is and contradict

you I would say it is absolutely critical critical in to that you do have those experiences that you do realize that there is a higher perspective because otherwise you're going with the mainstream ideation of what life is without any actual perception of the

other realms and so does it matter that you've had that like no you shouldn't be walking around with this chip on your shoulder you shouldn't be at the age I if I was to go found an ashram at the age of 24 following that I would have been a

complete massive and ridiculous I would have you know fallen into the traps that so many spiritual teachers have have done where they have harems and Rolls Royces and all kinds of different profiles and weird things I mean that's absolutely not what you should be doing

but creating perspective you know looking at the different variations of what your consciousness can be and where you can hold it and where you can be looking at life it's absolutely necessary and critically necessary to what is ailing us in the modern context

I mean let's get let's connect it together let's connect the dots together a bit how do you find that the psilocybin effects your spiritual process and the Kundalini itself so the Kundalini is the spiritual energy of the body it's a spiritual energy of the soul and

these are all words that don't really mean much but it is a real it's a realistic energy and it does have a vibration it feels like an electric current the the mushrooms and things do a certain D filter ization of the mind the default mode network they open you

up to the possibility of perceiving Li smoke these energies that are constantly already flowing through your body so in conjunction yes this to my mind in some kind of kung-fu ancient history path mountaintop experience fantasy is where you have your sweepingly ashram and you

are learning the yoga and you're learning the crias and you're learning the ancient ways and the the the Tai Chi and the different ways of moving energies and the modalities the final task is to take an entheogen be it a mushroom or something along

those lines because it becomes this complete activator it causes and this enzyme to your ego that allows you to see the energies that you've been cultivating this whole life and so the discipline becomes part of how you have to work with this and this is where we

come into the problems of the 60s is that in their mindset these things these compounds were not illegal I mean absolutely they were fully legal this was we had made it we've been practicing yoga we've realized these things now we've got these compounds we are going to be a

spacefaring race we are going to end all war and poverty all we have to do is climb onto these things but there was no discipline and so what you're seeing now literally 50 60 years later is the maturation where it says perhaps we have forgotten how to deal with things things

but there is a discipline that is required absolutely required because you mind Unleashed can be a beatific or hellacious thing to deal with okay okay I mean I I know I know my audience and so I just want to say I just want to say for anyone out there

listening to this and thinking you know you're gonna combine psilocybin and then try to have a Kundalini awakening there's an old saying you know that I want to repeat to you there's an old Buddhist saying and it goes something like before enlightenment chop wood

carry water after enlightenment chop wood carry water I mean it it's hold so true but you know I sorry so the gate was Kate yeah absolutely so I mean Clint you know your work with these two things I think are so huge I mean here you're dealing with I mean I

guess you I mean I guess maybe your answer would be is that they're not so different you know they're they're one of the same yeah they they collaborate and that's something that I've been looking there's a synergy there there's a synergy to spiritual evolution and

there's a synergy with anti entheogenic plants and there's a synergy with the human experience and the plan to experience the fungal experience that can be created I mean everyone from for the last few years and I hesitate to get into this but they have spoken that

psilocybin has a voice and there is a communication that encouraged in that space and so we are talking about synergies and we are talking about discipline and guidance and how do you use these things in in a social context that is beneficial right because one

thing that the sixties taught us is that you can throw a compound like LSD into the mix and it will almost completely obliterate the standards of what was you know conservatively progressing now what we're looking at here in essentially the third wave of

psychedelic revolution is you know a maturation how does it how does it bind into how does it collaborate how does it coalesce into and not to be careful to bring it into a macro capitalist model of feel-good and don't worry about the future right we don't lock that Huxley

in the future but what we do want is the people's version of healing recognizing the trauma and using these compounds and the disciplines of alternative medicine into something that's really integrated into a holistic lifestyle yeah okay I mean it's definitely an interesting

perspective and you know I think I think some purists would say you know you either have cannellini or you have psychedelics but you don't mix the two you know and and so it's it's interesting to hear you know a combination of those two things and

especially since this is your profession and this is what you do especially in regards to healing trauma and and working with people who are seeking to heal trauma so Clint we've got about 17 minutes give or take I mean the world is in pandemonium it seems it there's it's

so chaotic everyone is operating on fear and you know I I just is there a way we can wrap this together this conversation this beautiful conversation we've had is there a way that we can wrap this together somehow to those people that are listening to us tonight right now

and you know something that we can offer to them in the midst of what looks like the beginning of something that is going to change our society for a very very long time well obviously if speaking about the current pandemic of the coronavirus and

you know these things are going to happen there was the SARS outbreak in 2003 and it seems to be escalating one of the things that seems to be effective is you know for boosting the immune system is medicinal mushrooms and that's something that I've been working my

entire life on our entire life but it feels like such for the last 10 years so not necessarily the psilocybin mushrooms or any of those classic psychedelics and getting a totally away from that but rather boosting the human immune system through the natural pharmaceutical

factories that are sitio Corpse medicinal mushrooms you mean like lion's mane and stuff like that yes reishi chaga even something as simple as shiitake I mean you can buy shiitake at your local market and it has some of the most immune stimulating

boosting compounds there we are working with I was working with a company recently and we were having amazing results just dealing with shiitake as far as battling cancer as far as immune response and all these things and if you go to Japan or China these places

particularly Japan they will treat you with any kind of immunological or cancer disease particularly first and foremost with these compounds that are pharmaceutically extracted from medicinal mushrooms so we in the West in America and in Europe have a lot to

learn from the medicinal mushroom aspect so traditional Chinese medicine has brought us to that there's a lot of aspects of traditional Chinese medicine that we probably should let go of and as far as poaching in these different aspects but clearly the realm of

mycology which is its own Kingdom I mean to call me a mycologist it's like call me a botanist is to say there's someone who studies plants we have a a complete Kingdom of things that needs to be explored and they absolutely a wealth of young mycologists

that are burgeoning in north america with entrepreneurial businesses with creating realistic medicines and extractions that you should look into I mean if in your local area I can almost guarantee you there's someone struggling to bring you the best medicine that the

Mushroom Kingdom can provide so look at I didn't encourage your listeners to look into you know what's locally sourced what's grown organically there's something beautiful about the way that these exotic mushrooms and medicinal mushrooms are grown the requires the

highest standards so you guess these young people who are working out of greenhouses and sheds can't access exactly afford organic certification and all of these things but the mushroom make sure that you provide that or it will not grow so a lot of times what

you're getting at your local farmers market is the best medicine you could possibly take for any type of virus bacterial issue that you could actually think very nice very nice so is there a specific stack or different species that you would recommend to the listeners

like that they can order no actually I'm not gonna go there you know I'd advise everyone to do their own due diligence there is a particular compounds and things in the fungal medicine I'd say the freshest the best so go to your local farmers market if

you're worried about coronavirus what are you look like a farmers market bison lions maybe some shiitake some reishi or some local teen chosen and find it online most that the people that are genuinely interested in my ecology because it is a tiny tiny field are

people that are completely invested in heart and mind into producing really good medicines if you go into the larger higher name stacks and things a lot of this is brought in from China and a lot of this is done and on industrial scale and not to say that it's not valid I

mean if if your only option is to go into Whole Foods or sprouts or what have you any your local stores and get what's on the shelf you know that's going to serve you I absolutely believe it will serve you but know that it was only to be taken

under certain conditions in the sense of you wanting to actually excite your immune system and potentially not something you want to be taking every day I love that love that answer shop locally organically it's it's the best way to go especially now and you

know this special you're exactly with Sarge yeah no no absolutely I mean if we're supposed to be staying luckily and not inviting all of those things from overseas then exactly I mean yeah so let's let's talk a little bit about pledge and hi because I love the hive

defense fund I would like you to just tell us more about that please yeah so the hive Defense Fund is a soon-to-be nonprofit essentially what it stands right now is this an open association of Concerned individuals inside the right to heal plant medicine psychedelic

Renaissance community so that's a big net but it's what I want to talk about when it comes to the hive is that we need to have the education and the backbone to stand behind our practitioners who are actually working in the healing capacity with these

medicines and there are other funds and organizations such as ICS or the ayahuasca Defense Fund that work specifically with ayahuasca and they've had several if not into the hundreds of cases of persecution for their practitioners so looking at the other

medicines particularly mushrooms in the United States if there are people that are working for the healing aspect then we want to support them because my experience I've had some legal issues is that you know pretty much everyone in America doesn't want anything to do with

you become a ten-foot pole type person and so I've created the hive to say let's protect the community let's serve the people that are serving the people and make sure that if they do get indicated in you know and if it's legitimate I'm not interested in

supporting people that are dealing meth or heroin or these other compounds only plant medicines then we're gonna be there to support you legally explain to the prosecution exactly why we're happening in and in the realm of these messages being put

out on 60 minutes and thank God for John Hopkins for all the beautiful things there is a lot of traction there with people they realized that the opioid epidemic and the meth epidemic and these things are problems I work with sheriff in los horsemen on this task in lawyers

and they are very much pleased to have us on board in the sense of just a sober straight education of of what is going on here in the streets they all know that psilocybin mushrooms or LSD are not the cause of these social issues these are actually things under the right

proper set and setting in context or actually working against them to make their lives better so that's essentially the mission of what the HDF stands for the hive defense fund I love it I love it I really truly hope you all the success in the world for what you're

doing I think it's so so needed i I think it's I mean it feels like it's in the early stages but I feel like as things evolve and people are waking up to the truth of what's going on around them they're waking up to the idea that Western medicine has failed them completely and

you know shows like this and and hopefully you get more exposure with the work that you're doing and we can bring more awareness into this field and it's no longer I mean places like Oakland in California have legalized you know anything that's plant related including

solid psilocybin so why not everywhere what I mean why are we so why is the system so archaic and why are we punishing people that are growing plants I mean what it makes no sense whatsoever right so the the decriminalize nature movement is pushing forward there based

on decriminalised Denver and decriminalized nature's run in all the plants and they are essentially saying that same thing is that realistically the the impetus of all of this is the right to heal and so it's just a paradigm shift as I say there's a liminal period and that's what

the HDF serves is that there is going to be a time where the public consciousness moves into the new paradigm yet the institutions are still working that and we are living hopefully my my prayer sincerely is that we are living on the shoulder of the drug war and then we can

get into more of a treatment style paradigm and I don't support any type of narcotics situations or any of those things I think it's deplorable and horrible but I recognize as a mental health practitioner that the drug lords are not the problem is the traumatized

children that are the problem and we need to help them first and foremost to you know heal what is going on what that need to remove reality from so the psychedelic compounds truthfully in my experience cold-heartedly our anti-drug position they fulfill the

neurotransmitters in a way they put they positively put into those receptors without the dopant dopaminergic effects and all these addictive behaviors and they can do wonders micro dosing macro dosing the cognitive behavioral therapy the talk therapy that exists after the

fact is is absolutely nothing short of revolutionary to what we can be doing so that's actually a huge threat to the current paradigm pharmaceutical and provide in things so it's going to be a long long journey and so that's why when I talk to people in the mint when I talk

to yourself and I very much appreciate you taking the time to speak with me is that we need to have even though there's been this gigantic leap out of the gate we need to build on that and we need you to have continued to have a khole collaborative 20

30 year effect because this is something that is absolutely transformational for the entire humanity I mean there's nothing that I could say that would be I could put my 100% you know heart behind besides that is that this is what it is this was a when they you know dropped

the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima and then we're doing all these tests you know that's when they discovered the mushroom in the 50s that was at the height of the Cold War's all of this things so there is this certain mentality that these entheogens have come through to suppress

the dominator culture to let us experience ourselves to let us heal from some of the generational trauma from World War well you know over one World War two I myself am a descendant of World War two veterans and I have gone into psilocybin assisted therapy

sessions where I've expressly experienced that actual connection and the reasons of why I'm addicted to alcohol or nicotine or these certain variations of my personal problems so I don't claim sainthood I don't claim spiritual materialism activating my

Kundalini was part of the process for me to become a person who found freedom and then turn that freedom into service and so service without freedom is slavery right so get to a point of freedom and I would tell you it's like a peak it's like when you jump out of a rock you

know I don't know you jump up into this complete stall right and you're just going straight up in a rocket you feel alternate freedom the next thought that hits you is service as you as you we you know bring yourself back into what it is that you are here to do let me let me

let's expand on that a little bit I want to ask you just cuz you opened a new thread there I don't want to leave it that it what do you mean I mean by freedom like you you mean this inner sense of freedom that you feel within yourself or what do you mean by that

yeah I mean I think a lot of us work inside of freedom concepts and there's emotional freedom there's financial freedom there's all these things the sense of freedom is different for everyone but for me the personal experience of evolution of going through

spiritual evolution has been a focus on freedom I mean that's always been my Drive was why is this pain so so vibrant for me or why is the do I feel oppressed in this way and if I could just be free from that then I would be able to decide a different path and my own experience

is that when I did achieve that freedom the first thing I wanted to do is turn around and provide service so maybe I'm repeating myself but I think its individual okay all right um Clint I mean I love this conversation is there is there something that we

should have covered something that I should have asked you about that I didn't ask you about that you'd like to talk about tonight no I mean this has been wonderful and I hope that I haven't been too rambly with you know I don't know I think when we're talking about

plant medicine and the psychedelic Renaissance let's one thing that I have been contemplating is the role that psychedelics have played in all of these traditional movements from the 60s forward so if you're talking about civil rights movement the LGBTQ movement

environmentalism the anti-war I question whether or not there hasn't been some entheogenic presence in all of those movements in that level of awareness and I don't want to like go to the stake on that one per se but I think that it's time for the psychedelic

plants to be you know liberated to be decriminalize to allow people to heal and that the dominator culture that has come across the crossed oceans and continents to be here has found the backboard in the mountains of central Mexico and the jungles of Peru on the

new world of these psychedelic compounds and say hey let's turn around let's push back let's give back let's create a more collaborative incorporating you know beatific world Clint what a conversation this was amazing I loved it loved your words I love the the warmness in your

voice I love your beard at love what you're doing where can people find your work where can people go to find out more about hive the Defense Fund how can people find pledge how can people find out more about what you're doing yeah so first and foremost go to pledge done or

check out what we're doing consider donating consider applying get in contact with us we really are in a building stage of building a new paradigm for psychedelic assisted therapy which is inclusive and provides access an ongoing holistic integration

into the whole thing so we're looking at the larger paradigm and we want to build that so yes also hive defense fund it is my own personal category you can read about me you can read about people like William Leonard Picard is providing amazing

authorship and potentially life-changing compounds depending on your perspective and other things and people that we are supporting so if you want to get behind people that are supporting their First Amendment rights there's their rights to

heal people that are really working on that we'd love your support and hear from you and we're looking to build team and all this stuff is just as we go we are putting one step in front of the other because this is a brand new paradigm not that it hasn't been

building for 50 years but the the floodgates are open so thank you for the opportunity to share the message with you xavier and it's been a wonderful evening perfect friends you here to hurt here first I mean this if you feel passionate about this this is definitely where you

need to go to get involved especially if you connect with you know what Clinton is saying and and psychedelic medicine and I really think those are a couple different avenues that you can go down and you know lend yourself to service if that is the direction that you want to

go but thank you guys so much for listening I know we took a week off there was some personal stuff that I was dealing with but we're we're back we got there's an amazing show next week with Richard Hoagland that I'm really looking forward to so don't bite the hype with

the coronavirus don't bite into the fear so much and thank you guys so much for listening and being part of this show I really appreciate each and every one of you goodnight