Episode 160 – Plant Medicine, Ayahuasca, Healing Trauma/PTSD From Shock to Awe w/ Matt Kahl

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human experiences in session my name is

Xavier katana my guest for tonight is

Matthew Cale matt is a US military

combat veteran PTSD survivor and founder

matt has been on the frontlines of drug

policy advocacy and reform in regards to

plant medicine and using unorthodox

treatment methods to treat PTSD and

trauma since 2013

Matt served in the hundred and first

Airborne Division in Afghanistan where

an accident sent him home sent him sent

him home injured traumatized and

suffering from crippling PTSD Matt is

the founder of veterans for natural

rights and organization that aims to

build community support and resources

for veterans that are suffering with

PTSD and trauma he is also the president

of we the weed for warriors project in

Colorado and host of the 1620 show on

the veterans Channel he is one of the

people featured in the documentary we’re

gonna be talking about tonight from

shock to aw Matt it’s such a pleasure

welcome to hxp thank you for having me

so Matt I mean where do we begin

let’s let’s tie mean I love the

documentary I watched I got a chance to

watch it a couple times and I mean let’s

let’s start with a little bit of your

background what what led you to choose

military service why did you decide to

do that with your life oh wow

that is a whole can of worms right there

it’s actually not clear at what drove me

to military service I grew up with a

father who was

colonel in the Marine Corps and he’s

pretty authoritarian and his parenting

style and we just didn’t really get

along so I kind of swore off military

service early on in my life but by the

time I had a son of my own I was working

in I was working in a music recording

studio as an audio engineer and the

money was good but it was intermittent

I’d get a contract and it’d be great for

a little while and then you know there’d

be a month or two where I didn’t have

any work and that that kind of lifestyle

works well for a single guy but not so

well for people with dependents so I

started examining other options and one

of the things that has been constant in

my life is pushing my own boundaries and

doing things that I never thought that I

would do and one of those things was

kicking down doors blowing stuff up and

and unfortunately part of the job is

killing people and I really didn’t know

if I was up to the task but I was

willing to challenge myself to see if I

was so I signed on the dotted line and I

raised my hand and I swore to support

and defend the Constitution of the

United States and was deployed shortly

after but unfortunately it turns out

that not many military people are really

charged with supporting and defending

the Constitution of the United States

and the oath of enlistment is all but

bankrupt in its meaning these days so

there’s a definite sense of moral injury

when someone who signs up for all the

right reasons ends up being a

stormtrooper for the empire essentially

yeah you know and so moral injury actual

trauma and then survivor’s guilt

I really characterizes three separate

things but they’re all very comorbid and

they have a lot of the same symptoms but

the three are very different but I have

all three definitely from both of my

deployments

it’s incredible and you know let me just

thank you for your service because it’s

important I think to cover you know this

and it led you to exploring plant

medicine because Western medicine had

failed you

you know you had tried to commit suicide

and you you were you lost all hope right

absolutely I was completely at below

rock bottom

there was no bottom to this this whole

that what I was in it just kept going

down and I was completely hopeless

bereft of any kind of idea of a normal

life that there was there was not even

the the inkling of a normal life in in

my head I believed that I was a murderer

and that I deserved die

you know I don’t I don’t think that the

human brain and psychologically I don’t

think the human brain is wired to take

another life you know and so when when

soldiers come back from combat they’re

they’re mostly forgotten about you know

we forget about you know our combat

veterans and and there’s so many

suicides that happen and it’s horrifying

you know what happens to these people

that serve our country and like you said

I mean it’s it’s morally bankrupt

so eventually you came to a point where

I mean how did you hear about ayahuasca

how did you find out about this

believe it or not I actually studied all

of the Indo alkyl amine hallucinogens

slash entheogens in college back in the

late 90s I was a behavioral neuroscience

student at Appalachian State University

and I did a lot of my work on the

anatomy and how it corresponds to the

function of the brain but I spent all of

my spare time researching the

psychopharmacology of endo kill amines

and cannabinoids so I was kind of well

prepared for my life after the service

but but I had to overcome my hasn’t my

hesitancy to re-engage these substances

again

I mean a when you first get out of the

military its transition is very

difficult for almost everyone they spend

so much time teaching you to be a killer

but they don’t spend any time to

deprogram that killer and so when I got

back to the civilian arena you know I

was still trying to be the good soldier

and still trying to do everything that I

was told everything I was ordered to

which included taking this massive and

debilitating regimen of pharmaceutical

pills so this this constant stuffing my

face full of pills really kept me in a

sort of psychological stasis and I

wasn’t able to address the trauma or

even recognize the trauma that I had

undergone not just in the military but

in my childhood too believe it or not

that the common thread for all of this

stuff whether it’s PTSD suicide or

addiction is childhood trauma dr. Gabor

Monta does an amazing piece about how

the the roots of addiction are based in

childhood trauma and people are trying

to medicate the pain away and they use

all of the the tools that are readily

available but extremely harmful you know

things like cocaine heroin

methamphetamine or in my case it was the

opiate pills and the benzodiazepine

pills and all of these other substances

that kind of numbed me to the pain but

it also numbed me to the variations and

the goods and Bad’s in life so I was

just completely destroyed I mean my body

was starting to fall apart

I gained massive amounts of weight I was

a zombie in every sense of the word I

would fall asleep in the middle of my

sentences I wasn’t able to carry a

conversation it was it was horrible the

the quality of life was absolutely

terrible and eventually I had to

start looking for other options and

that’s really when I stepped outside the

VA system and their method of trying to

treat these illnesses which falls far

short but that the plant medicines are

particularly good at treating yeah yeah

I mean we’ve had dr. Korb or amante on

the show several times and I mean I’ve

I’ve been such a huge proponent of of

this research for so long you know Rick

Doblin has been on the show Rick

Strassman Dennis McKenna so I mean this

is right down our alley and everything

you’re doing with from shock to odd and

like I said I’d love the documentary

because in the beginning it really kind

of showcases the the I mean the the pure

pain of coming back and trying to

reassimilate and being unable to and and

then you know it changes its shifts I

mean you can feel this perceptual shift

when you get to a point where you drink

the tea and I mean I want to get into

that you know there you know Western

medicine has failed you you’ve tried to

commit suicide nothing is working for

you whatsoever you get to this place and

you’re about to drink this

hallucinogenic tea which you’ve

researched

I mean neurologically tell me about that

first session how did it go for you oh

wow

it was absolutely revelatory I mean it

changed everything the first session

just in itself and it seemed actually

pretty simple at the time but in

actuality I I was sitting there and you

know that he kept coming around with the

cups of tea and I kept drinking every

booster that was offered and I think I

got up two to four cups and I was

sitting there and my I keep you know

making these faces he’s trying to like

kind of contain my stomach because my

stomach started acting up and it was

just like okay shut up stomach that we

got this hold it together and so you

know I was kind of like you know just

making faces in an attempt to kind of

keep it down

and the the facilitator there came by

and he said hey how you doing man

and I said well you know I’m a little

bit uncomfortable but I’m not really

entirely sure I don’t know what I’m

supposed to be feeling really I don’t

know what’s supposed to be different and

and he said okay we’ll try a few more

things and he came around with these

little kichaka’s they’re they’re like

palm fronds sort of rattles and he would

he spread this like flowery water onto

the the kichaka’s and shake them around

your head and um there was something

about that sound that set me off and I

just couldn’t contain it anymore it just

started coming up and I grabbed the the

bucket really quickly and I just started

hurling as hard as I could into that

bucket and I puked up everything it was

not just the contents of my stomach

it was the contents of my soul for the

previous couple years and what I found

is is I I was I was purging out a kind

of a demon almost it I looked at the

bottom I could see through my white

plastic bucket I could see the the vomit

at the bottom of the bucket and it was

dark black and it just looked like demon

to me so I kind of personified it that

way and I realized oh man I just I just

expelled a demon out of me how the hell

did that demon get in there and then I

realized oh wait a second you put that

demon in there so you have wronged

yourself by putting this demon in there

and then your entire struggle over the

previous couple years has all been an

attempt to control this thing that is

now imprisoned inside of you and I keep

pushing it back down and pushing it back

down and pushing it back down and

holding on to it

trying to control it but it kept

bothering me it kept screwing up my life

and getting in the way of a true

experience of existence and once I let

it out and into the bucket then I

realized oh my god you didn’t just do

this to yourself

you did that to the demon – you took

this thing that was just like flying out

here in the ether and you imprison it in

your own body you have violated not just

your body but you have violated the

demons freedom also and I had to

apologize to the demon and I I I did I

cried and I said god I’m so sorry how

could I have done this and and what do I

have to do what what how can i how can I

make this up to you and the demon just

said just let it go just let it go and I

said it’s not that easy

I can’t just let it go I can’t just do

that and he said back to me yeah it is

just let go and at that moment it just

made a lot of sense to me and I let go

and at that moment is where you see me

stand up and raise my arms to the sky

and I’ve had never felt freer man Wow

it’s incredible I mean that there is a

compound on this planet that you know

possibly hypothetically theoretically

that you know indigenous populations

have been using for thousands of years

you know these shamans drink this herbal

tea and you know maybe the they have

these vision quests and and go and they

can you know diagnose like what’s going

on with with these people spiritually

and then you know somehow it infiltrates

you know Western culture there’s this

psychedelic Renaissance that’s happening

with plant medicine ayahuasca namely

ayahuasca maps the multiple in area

Association for psychedelic studies were

at doblin I mean they’re there at the

forefront of this and I mean this is why

I love the documentary from shock to all

so much is because

you know we’ve like I said we’ve had so

many of these these shows now over the

six years that we’ve been doing this

this this broadcast and I remember there

was a service woman that emailed me once

and she said and she said Xavier you

know I’ve I’ve never really considered

this ever you know but after listening

to the show you know I’m changing my

mind about this and it really struck me

you know it really struck me that you

know it it it is possible for this this

plant to help people right and you know

I want to talk to you about

neurologically you know I’m sure you

know what neurogenesis is and there are

only three four or five compounds

handful of compounds that do this in the

brain – tell us about neurogenesis and

what’s going on in the brain when a

person drinks this tea are you Oscar

well both the beta-carboline switch

inhibit monoamine oxidase and also DMT

they both stimulate neurogenesis in the

brain and it’s actually true of most of

the Indo alkyl amines almost every

entheogen out there will stimulate new

connections and new neuron growth in the

brain so these substances are really

taking advantage of a route of healing

that has kind of been known to

psychology for some time there’s a

reason why the SSRIs and the SNRIs they

say that you have to take them for 30

days before you start to feel the

effects of it and that’s because it

takes about 30 days for those substances

to generate new neurons and new neuronal

connections mm-hmm so these substances

especially the tryptamines

they tend to jumpstart the process and

you start having massive amounts of

neural connection between areas of the

brain that are formerly unconnected and

neurogenesis between all of these

disparate sections of the brain all

almost immediately so ayahuasca having

the dual components of the

beta-carbolines that inhibit Mao and the

DMT which is a straight tryptamine that

stimulates your brain to connect in all

kinds of different ways it normally

doesn’t these two substances together

probably with a number of other

substances that are also in the plants

they serve together in order to create a

one-two punch to your brain to really

kick it out of all of those bad and

negative thought loops that you have

become so accustomed to that your ego

continually beats you up with so these

things can really change your mind about

how you are in relation to your trauma

how your trauma defines you most people

when they’re really deep in that dark

hole their trauma completely defines

them but when you step outside of

yourself with this ego reduction that

the tryptamines bring you can finally

see that your trauma doesn’t really have

much to do with you it made you who you

are but it does not have to determine

who you will be and you can heal from

these things that’s my lesson from the

use of all things and Thea genic is that

PTSD trauma it’s curable mmm yeah I mean

it’s so powerful and I think I think

probably your you know your first

session with the tea could probably be

branded the I Love You session do you

know in all regards and I think that’s a

huge part of it is just remembering that

we you know there’s there’s love it is

love and it’s it’s capable you know it’s

it’s there we’re capable of reaching it

within ourselves and you know so so

ayahuasca is made of two plants that

it’s the vine and the leaf right and the

the the vine is the mo I and the leaf is

it has the DMT

uh-huh but there are all kinds of

alkaloids that are that are in the plant

themselves yeah correct especially in

the vine the vine itself is the maoi so

there’s all kinds of beta-carboline in

there there is harming there’s harm main

there’s harm of law

there’s tetrahydroharmine there’s

tetrahedra harm of all there are dozens

of different entourage elements in this

plant and they all add up to some kind

of mono amine urge ik inhibition and

they just they simply take your enzyme

that normally breaks down things like

serotonin or anything that looks like it

and it inhibits that enzyme then in the

chacruna chacruna is the leaf and it’s

from a different bush in the Amazon and

chacruna has dimethyltryptamine in it it

also has n methyl tryptamine and a

number of other entourage elements in

there with it that are similar to DMT it

but DMT is the primary alkaloid DMT is

possibly one of the most visual

hallucinogens on the face of the planet

it is an extremely potent experience

especially by itself too but it’s very

short-lived because of the monoamine

oxidase enzyme if some people have been

known to extract DMT from either

chacruna or mimosa hostilius there’s

several other plants acacia confuse a

that all have high levels of DMT so this

this is everywhere in nature DMT is one

of the most ubiquitous chemical

substances on the face of planet Earth

it’s present in so many species hundreds

and hundreds of plants in in at least

dozens of animals so we take these two

substances that shook the the chacruna

the bush in the Amazon and then the vine

the ayahuasca vine and right yeah

Banat been a stereoscopic yeah so you

you could combine these two ingredients

and the copy inhibits your enzymes of

the

dmt can actually reach your bloodstream

and then you have a relatively

long-lasting DMT experience so the DMT

whereas normally if smoked can go to

your brain and disappear in a matter of

15 20 minutes the MA Aoi allows it to

persist in your bloodstream for two to

three hours so you have a lot more time

to sort of interface with the chemical

and go to this place where you

renegotiate your relationship to your

ego and renegotiate your relationship to

your trauma and then bring something

back that you can apply to your everyday

life that will then change you forever

more it’s so incredible to me Matt like

this that this exists and we have access

to it you know the only problem is it

seems like you know these pharmaceutical

companies and drug policy is completely

backwards I mean this is illegal by law

and you know most people are you know

flying to down to South America just to

access this they’re you know struggling

to find it

what’s going on with drug policy right

now is it just you know this corporate

banker thing or they’re just trying to

farm humans farm are suffering keep us

sort of addicted to these pharmaceutical

drugs what you know what’s going on with

with drug policy and it’s reforming

we’re starting to see a bit of reform

very slowly but it seems to me the drug

war is an abject failure would you agree

absolutely

I mean it does nothing but criminalize

the population in the United States and

indeed the population of the entire

world I mean if you are guilty of using

the substance it doesn’t happen to be on

the approved list in order to improve

your life then you’re a criminal

period so it’s not really a war on drugs

it’s a war on people it’s a war on the

citizens of the United States and of the

world yeah and I mean I think it was the

Controlled Substances Act 1971 Richard

Nixon and then the Reagan administration

and and their campaign just say no you

know it’s it’s amazing where we have

sort of ended up and you know I’m so

glad there are organizations such as

yours and what you guys are doing

especially for veterans because I mean

here are people that go you know to

serve our country and you know perhaps

they don’t know what they’re getting

into

you know perhaps they’re going over

there because out of necessity perhaps

you know they they just can’t afford to

do anything else they can’t afford to go

to college you know yet unless until

they serve and they come back and

they’re broken in pieces and you know it

doesn’t just have to be veterans it many

people go through this many people are

walking around with trauma and as you

said absolutely the work of dr. Gabor

Monta you know we carry around this

childhood you know trauma for our whole

lives and you know it seems like we’re

just searching for something anything

and I you ask a plant medicine seems to

be that thing right now I think that

especially you hit on an amazing point

there the fact that trauma is the one

thing that really ties us all together

it doesn’t really matter who you are

there’s some kind of traumatic

experience in your past that you could

benefit from facing feeling and then

moving through so combat veterans

universally they tend to also have a

little bit of childhood trauma that’s

usually the predictor for what adult

PTSD is so if you have a little bit of

childhood trauma and then you have the

military trauma on top of it the

military trauma is really just the thing

that cracks the egg open and then once

the egg is open the yogic flying it all

back inside so that’s what I found with

my own trauma is the fact that the

military trauma just really I found that

the the the veins and the roots of it

went so deep into my being that they

didn’t just stop with the military it

went all the way back to early childhood

I think that that’s something that we

all feel to some degree or another we

have 22 veterans at the upper end that

are committing suicide every day and

maybe about 39 who are overdosing every

day

and dying from as a result of the

overdose but if you look at the larger

numbers it’s about a hundred and twenty

one individuals in America today that

are committing suicide every day 22 is a

my normal ready give that and granted

veterans are a tiny minority the

population we definitely have an

outsized influence on that number but

the fact is is the vast majority of

trauma is in the civilian population and

with addiction and overdose you’re

talking about a hundred and ninety-eight

people dying

that’s ridiculous every single day 121

from suicide and 198 from addiction and

overdose so that total you’re getting

about 320 people a day who are dying

from untreated trauma that’s it that’s

the bottom line

untreated trauma is what is causing this

massive not only human toll but societal

toll an economic toll how many days are

lost because somebody just can’t pull it

together enough in order to go to work

how many days are lost how many how much

productivity is lost because somebody

loses a job because they keep screwing

it up because they just can’t handle it

because of their trauma how much of the

crime in America is actually caused by

criminals who are simply acting out the

trauma that was done to them at a very

early age what kind of economic and

social impact could we have if we

started opening these medicines up to

all people regardless of what their

background is veterans you know we’re

the poster boys for PTSD right now but

it’s our job to call attention the fact

that the main repository of trauma in

our society is in the civilian side and

we all deserve recognition for our pain

and nobody’s pain is

any more important than anybody else’s

Wow such a powerful statement you know I

think you mentioned it a little bit

earlier when you were talking about your

journey and you you know you said there

was there was something about using the

opiates that numbed the pain for you and

you know I’ve been there I’ve you know

I’ve I remember after my first session

and I I never drank again you know but

in a world where alcohol is available on

every street corner you know and it just

seems like it’s it’s resistant to this

healing aspect of things and you know I

think it’s so important that we we

recognize we change the perception of

these compounds because I think some

people you know they hear ayahuasca or

psychedelics which I’m not really fond

of that word but you know they hear

about this and they just they just do

they turn off you know it’s like a

switch but I mean it’s it’s obvious that

this is helping people and you know like

you said this this comes to it’s not

just your service that that you looked

back at and and you know saw that

there’s trauma here it went back all the

way to your childhood and it affected

something deep down in in your soul yeah

and I really think that that’s sort of

the the crux of it veterans you know

like I said we are the poster boys with

PTSD right now and love us or hate us

we’re natural leaders so we get back to

civilian life and if we find something

that works for us there’s not many

veterans that are gonna just shut up and

like go melt away into a corner we’re

gonna start speaking up about it because

hey this works guys I don’t want another

one of my brothers or sisters to die so

please please please listen and take

advantage of these methods of healing so

that is really where the veteran kind of

fits into the whole drug war agenda is

the fact that we have a unique voice and

we can speak to a certain segment of the

population that normally is completely

unfazed by any sort of

argument Pro psychedelics namely the the

it’s it’s the conservative side of the

spectrum the fact remains is that

veterans we yes we have raised our hand

and we have pledged our life to the

support and defense of the Constitution

of the United States and also to the

people of America and there are not many

conservatives out there who will deny

that and they will even if they disagree

they’re at least gonna listen they’re

gonna give us a chance to say our piece

and I’ve really taken advantage of that

by going into the capitals of state

governments and also national

governments I actually held a

congressional brief in the US Capitol in

DC on December 12th where I talked about

psychedelics as treatment for PTSD

myself and another veteran – his name is

Jonathan lieu Becky and he was part of

the MDMA trials so you know there is

some small change happening but I really

believe that veterans are going to be

the linchpin we’re really the tip of the

spear on this we are pushing the idea of

plant medicine right up into the centers

of power in Washington DC and every

State Capitol across the nation yeah

it’s it’s amazing and and I applaud you

for your work and doing this and

bringing it to the mainstream as it were

you know can you imagine can you imagine

if there were you know ayahuasca centers

on every street corner instead of

alcohol just available freely I mean and

and people could access this and maybe

treat you know some of that that

struggle and find you know healing true

healing and it wasn’t just you know you

found you found healing in the family

aspect as well can you talk a little bit

about you know how it helped you in your

connection to your family and your your

sort of everyday life and your your

connection to your wife and your kids

yeah absolutely

um so when you have a psychedelic

experience or an

anthea genex experience however you want

to term it um you are basically shown an

open door which leads you to a vision of

how things could be but psychedelics

themselves aren’t the answer

psychedelics can show you the way but

really the work has to be done in your

everyday life you have to start making

changes in the way you actually live

your life the way you think from moments

a moment the way you react to certain

triggers and stimuli you have to change

that on a basic fundamental level in

order for you to get better and that’s

what they talk about quote doing the

work you know there’s a lot of people

that go to the psychedelics and then

afterwards they have to do the work and

doing the work involves changing the way

you interact with your experience

interact with reality interact with life

so I had to immediately start reviewing

almost everything that I did in life and

and believe it or not it wasn’t just

ayahuasca that I pursued as soon as I

tried ayahuasca I realized that these

things can really work and I determined

that I need to know everything there is

to know about all of the indle alkyl

amine entheogens and so a month after I

took ayahuasca on from Choctaw I went

down to Peru and I recorded a movie

called soldiers of the vine which is

available for free on YouTube and then a

month after that I went down to Mexico

and I took ibogaine and also toad which

is five methoxy DMT a month after that I

was exploring peyote here in the States

and a month after that I was trying

mushrooms under the guidance of a gringo

so uhm 2016 was a bit of a crazy year

for me but I emerged from 2016 a

completely different person with a

completely different relationship to my

trauma my trauma no longer determined

who I was as a person it was simply

something that was a part

of the greater whole yeah so yeah anyway

so the the point being is is that these

these substances can can really catalyze

profound changes in your life but you

have to be willing to do the work in

between you can’t just go back to your

old habits and your old ways of

interacting with with the universe

around you you have to actually change

and one of the ways that I started

changing is I started rien gauging my

family in a huge way my son was born

just before military service and then

when I got in the military I was never

there I was gone from sunup sundown

training and then a few months after

that I was deployed for almost you know

a year and a quarter and then I was home

for a few months and then I deployed

again for another year except that time

I got medevac’d and when I got medevac’d

it was even worse because I was home but

I was on all these medications so I was

really truly absent I was completely

messed up in the head and I was a zombie

I was drooling on myself I couldn’t hold

a conversation there was no way that I

could actually father my children you

know I couldn’t be there for them so I

was absent for their entire childhood

and it really really messed with me and

I talked about it a lot in in the film

but what the medicine led me back to is

the fact that I needed to rebuild my

relationship with them and I needed to

start from ground one like the ground

level you know and so the first thing I

started to do was re-engage with my wife

and even though I was reengaged my wife

I was still doing all of these other

things that had been important to my

healing up to that point which is like

helping other veterans and it’s really

just recently just within the past year

that I decided that I needed to really

start fixing all the lack of attention

that my kids had gotten from me so in

August of last year I

actually pulled my oldest son out of

school and I started homeschooling him

and I have actually I’ve believe it or

not I have complete completely

rearranged our relationship and I have a

completely new understanding and

appreciation for who he is as a human

being I don’t yell at him anymore we

just talk and we talk about everything

we talk about school and we talk about

friends and we talk about girls and we

talk about hopes and dreams and we talk

about the future we talk about College

we talk about life and it’s wonderful

it’s completely changed my own feeling

about myself

and my feeling about myself in

relationship to my family – yeah I mean

that’s so powerful man I love your words

I love that I love what you said about

not you can’t be lazy about this you

know it’s not like it’s not like this

cure-all there is no magic pill you

don’t show up to a session and suddenly

you’re just sort of healed and you know

you kind of move around and that’s it

it you have to as you said you have to

do the work you have to take it very

seriously I mean it is very serious and

and I think for me you know the tea

showed me so much and I would classify

my life as you know pre ayahuasca and

post ayahuasca just flat-out and you

know it took me a long time just to be

able to talk about some of the things

and I I don’t remember you know when I

cried the last time that I had cried and

my first session it was like I was my

face was you know wet sloppy mess and

you know and what you said about purging

I think is so on point you know there’s

something about it that is almost

spiritual you know I think maybe it does

go in there you know if your cells store

memory Faced or trauma maybe it kind of

finds those things those attachments

those demons and and then it’s it’s out

its out of you you know and as such it’s

such a powerful experience you know in

every angle and every facet

but you know as you said you know I I

think we have to be ready to do the work

within ourselves and and I’m so glad for

you that the relationship between you

and your son has evolved and you know I

think it’s about the collective it’s

it’s about the network that we create

around us it’s not just about the the

just individually us and our own

evolution but it’s also the evolution of

you know our family and the people that

we care about and our friends and and

the reason that I do this show to be

honest yeah it’s the evolution of

everyone that you come into contact with

because each time that you take a step

forward you’re kind of pulling along

everyone that is on the ride with you

there’s there’s no other way to really

describe it but you know the fact that I

have found this way out of a deep dark

hole this horrible horrific trauma has

basically created a roadmap by which

hundreds maybe thousands of other people

are now first starting to take their own

steps on that path I love it man and

there’s a quote there’s a quote that of

yours that I’ve really liked that I

found it no one in no one is free in

America so long as nature is illegal and

it’s so true you know absolutely because

if nature is illegal then what what the

heck is read them to us like if I can’t

plant a seed in the ground watch it grow

and then use it in order to feed clothe

or medicate myself then I am NOT free

period there is no no kind of reality in

which a person is free who can’t simply

put a seed into the ground that’s we are

under a completely backward and

totalitarian and tyrannical edict and

regime that creates these restrictions

upon us we are living in a jail in which

were not allowed to touch certain parts

of nature and I cannot abide by that

period I was I swore to support and

defend

the United States Constitution and when

I read through the United States

Constitution what it tells me is that it

was created to restrict powers of

government and not the people it was

designed to protect the rights of the

people to do anything they want so long

as they hurt no one else so if I decide

to drink a tea from an Amazonian jungle

plant so be it that should be completely

within our rights and priorities as

individual human beings and there is

nothing in the world that should come

between us and nature I love it I had

loved it so much and I couldn’t agree

more I think it the the current system

is absolutely archaic and I can’t see a

reason for it to exist the way it does

other than to enslave humanity and you

know it’s it’s time for us to do

something about that you know Matt we’ve

got about 15 minutes left and you know I

really want to reach out to you know the

people that maybe there’s a veteran

that’s gonna hear this and maybe they’re

on the fence about this you know or

there’s a person that is struggling from

this internal pain what’s your what’s

your sort of take away from this whole

journey that you’ve been on and what do

you do I mean what do you say to that

that veteran your brother or sister you

know whatever it may be what do you save

these people that are suffering out

there and they they just can’t seem to

find you know that thing that works for

them I think I would say you need to

live for yourself and not for other

people because so many of us are stuck

within the prison bars that society and

other people have created around us in

our own minds and you need to step

outside that box that box it was made by

other people for you but it’s not your

box you need to find out where you

actually live where you can actually go

as a human being not just bodily but

mentally – if cognitive freed

is not a right guaranteed by the

Constitution then I think Terence

Mckenna

said it that it’s not worth the hip that

it was written on its right the

Constitution is not worth the hemp it

was written on so I think that if you

were on the fence about these treatments

you don’t need to be I know

Green Berets I know SEAL Team six

members who are using endo alkyl amine

entheogens to improve their lives and to

get over trauma that they have incurred

as a result of service and as a result

of their childhood I know people in

Delta Force people in CAG who are

actually exploring their own minds and

their own souls with the help of these

plants and these substances so if you’re

on the fence about it don’t be these

things are very well proven with

thousands of years of use and the fact

is is Western medicine it’s like a child

it’s like a screaming baby and it has no

idea how to use all of these appendages

that are given to it there is so much

more that your mind is capable of and

there’s so much more that your body is

capable of there’s so much more that you

are capable of and these plants they’re

simply the beginning of it they will

show you the way but you have to walk

that path yourself indeed indeed my

friend um you know and what about what

about the people who you know haven’t

served at all the the you know people

who haven’t served in the military and

perhaps they’re they’re suffering you

know as he as you noted in your story

you know this this goes back to

childhood and youth you know dr. Gabor

motty’s work which i think is

revolutionary and he he talks about how

we carry around these traumas for our

whole lives and we never truly face them

you know whether they’re abandonment

issues or something else we never really

addressed them no one really

asks us what happened to you as a child

what happened to you you know and so

let’s let’s talk about that a little bit

and then we’ll wrap up but you know what

do you what do you say to someone who

hasn’t served at all yeah I mean we we

spend our whole lives of voiding these

topics I mean if something bad happened

to you when you’re a kid and somebody

asks you about it when you’re adult are

you totally gloss over it you’re like

yeah man it was a messed up thing and

you know my dad was totally absent or

angry and he hit me or my uncle touched

me wrong it there’s all these different

things that happen to us but that we

don’t really incorporate we don’t we

don’t actually integrate them into our

personality we push them away and we

lock them into a deep dark closet

somewhere and we use all kinds of

defense mechanisms in order to avoid

talking about these things whether it’s

self-deprecating humor or it is a simple

avoidance there are so many different

tactics that we use to try to erase

these things out of our history but the

only way to really truly reconcile these

things and reintegrate them into the

whole of your being is to truly sit

there and delve into them experience

them fully and then just like the rain

clouds come and go so will these

memories and so will these traumas so

the the clouds may come and obscure the

Sun for a brief moment but you know that

eventually the clouds will go away and

the Sun will shine again I’m sorry dude

sorry too bumpy there go ahead

no but another thing I would like to

tell the people who have never been to

combat listen I have when I first got

out of the military I had a very common

prejudice that is present in a lot of

infantryman I mean our job is a kick

down doors blow stuff up and kill people

straight up this is like trauma 101 and

I started realizing I got out of the sir

and I was really mad at the people who

claim to have PTSD but never really did

any of the stuff that I did and I had a

prejudice against them but gradually in

the process of my advocacy I would sit

down with some of these people and I

would say all right man like what what

really happened to you and they would

say things like listen nothing I didn’t

really do anything like you did I can’t

even imagine what it’s like being you

let me tell you what happened to me

and then they would tell me this story

and half the time my job would hit the

floor and I would come out of that

conversation thinking to myself how the

heck did you deal with that I have no

experience in being able to try to pull

myself together after an experience like

that some of these are horrific horrific

trauma it could be being kidnapped and

systematically tortured it could be a

ace a rape or a number of rapes over a

long period of time this betrayal by

authority figures and people that you’re

supposed to trust I have no idea how

some of these people pull themselves

together after this and so I still have

to tell people yeah you may not have

kicked down some doors and blowing stuff

up and killed people but your trauma is

just as important as mine is and don’t

ever ever ever let anyone tell you

anything different yeah for sure

Matt there’s there’s a question that I

really really like and it’s from cosmos

of compassion and they asked if one has

a rough mental history psychotic breaks

is there ever ever a chance for such

people to use plant medicine having such

a bad history

will I ever be approved plant medicine

if you have genuine psychosis in your

background like psychotic breaks I think

that the chances that you would

experience a a psychotic break under the

influence of some of these substances

might be slightly higher

so definitely proceed with caution

I think that there are a lot of people

who advise those with histories with

psychosis to never engage in any of

these substances but personally I have

had a psychotic break I there was a

period of time where I didn’t sleep for

over a week in Fort Campbell Kentucky

and I was imagining Taliban outside my

window flitting around in the shadows

and I would routinely go and clear my

house with a firearm and then clear the

outside of my house with that same

firearm and I was I was not right in the

head I was imagining things

I was I was legitimate

I think psychotic I it felt like I was

going crazy so the fact that I have been

able to at least come to a different

portion of my life

all of those incidences are way far in

the past I have been able to use these

medicines to help fix myself so that

that kind of thing never happens again I

think it depends on the person really

and you really have to proceed with

caution if you are prone to psychotic

breaks and there are no substances

involved like let’s say you turned 18

and you just had a schizophrenic attack

and you weren’t on any sort of

medications or drugs or anything like

that you are at risk for being for

undergoing a psychotic rape while

underneath the influence of these

substances but if you had some kind of

incident in your past in which you may

have imagined things or heard voices or

something like that especially it under

the influence of medication then if you

eliminate the medication then more than

likely you’re going to be able to

eliminate the psychotic symptoms and you

can then re-engage with some of these

tryptamine substances in a safe manner

yeah I mean I I like that answer and in

a proceed with caution I think is that

the general rule and you know we we are

not medical professionals and we’re not

pretending to be so you know constitutes

medical advice here so this is for

entertainment purposes only and your

information so please you know proceed

with caution and make sure that you know

you’re making wise choices and decisions

with your mental health and and what you

decide to do with with your body you

know Matt I I think one of the most

important things also is to have someone

around that you trust that can monitor

you for these kinds of symptoms so if

you are undergoing a psychedelic

experience having someone that you know

love and trust that is close to you that

can help you through these things and

then also tell you if you’re starting to

slip and having them available is

extremely important yeah yeah and you

know if these compounds weren’t illegal

people wouldn’t you know be trying to

order them on the internet and cooking

them in their kitchens and then you know

maybe jumping out of windows or

something because they’re you know like

they’re not guided by a shaman or you

know someone trained to do this do not

do this by yourself you know I think

people ask me you know they they they

think you know it’s something that they

can do just sitting alone in their

living room I do not recommend this

whatsoever do not order it on the

internet go to someone that is trained

in guiding you through a session because

there there is an an integration period

that that you need you need to be able

to talk about your experience is so

important a friend of mine tried to cook

it in his kitchen and he was like

burning incense like drawing like war

paint on his body he it was not it was

not a healthy thing for him to go

through that yeah I think um the vast

majority of people could benefit from

having either a trip sitter or a trusted

friend together or both honestly I think

that these things can work in concert

and provide layers of protection for you

there’s another thing that you really

need to do when undergoing any sort of

psychedelic experience to sort of

develop a spiritual practice of your own

it doesn’t need to be

anything from any major religion it can

just be stuff that you pull from several

different religions things that resonate

with you things that make sense and they

make you feel good and they ground you

so having this sort of ritualized

approach to entheogenic exploration can

be extremely valuable but I also want to

say that there is so much focus these

days on integration and having a proper

shaman and all this stuff and you know

believe it or not all of the best

shamans that I have ever come across

have said I don’t do anything the

medicine does it in concert with you and

actually they’re just providing the safe

space they’re just they’re just simply

containing the area and letting whatever

comes out come out and I think that

there is intrinsic value to these

substances whether it’s ayahuasca or

even just plain DNT or v methoxy DMT

toad Bufo mescaline with a San Pedro and

peyote

I think there’s intrinsic value to

mushrooms and psilocybin I think there’s

intrinsic value to all kinds of

different plant medicines you can do

these things yes alone but those things

are for the advanced practitioner only

very very important I think that the

vast majority of people could benefit

from using some kind of support system

whether it’s a shaman and a trusted

friend or a shaman a trusted friend a

psychotherapist to talk about all of

your experiences with afterwards because

you’ve got to unpack everything you know

your shaman is gonna be there or your

your facilitator is gonna be there

through the experience and they’re gonna

let you talk about it a little bit

afterwards but really you’re gonna

really start unpacking everything that

just happened to you over the MA

and years after your experience not in

the 24 hours afterwards so it will

continue to develop layers of meaning as

you go on and and you experience more of

life you’ll start to realize how

different things that you learned are

more applicable to each individual

situation indeed indeed and you know I I

think I’ve heard you know something like

it’s years of therapy in one sitting one

session and I would agree with that so

you know I think there’s a there’s a lot

to unpack there Nomad I think we’re out

of time man where can people find you

know you your work where can people find

from shock to all tell us how we can get

there and and watch the documentary

please you can find a link to all of the

ancillary materials for from shock to

odd at from shock to a calm and you can

actually rent the movie itself from

Amazon Prime from Google Play and I

think you can also do it from iTunes so

you can actually watch the full hour and

a half two hour movie if you’d like for

a nominal fee and you can find me at

least online I’ve actually divorced

myself from Facebook recently but I I

still run the organization called

veterans for natural rights and it’s

it’s found on Facebook it’s found on

Instagram it’s found on a bunch of

different platforms you can follow me

and my activities there you can also go

to the website veterans for natural

rights dot org and there you’ll find

trailers for the 16:20 series which is

more about cannabis and how it helps

pull us out of the pharmaceutical health

and also you’ll find links to from

Choctaw trailers there and and soldiers

of the vine which is a full hour and

minute movie about ayahuasca as healing

for PTSD yeah Wow Matt you know I really

want to thank you for your service in on

all levels I mean there’s it’s so

important the work that you’re doing

here guys that’s gonna do it for us I

mean what a show what an amazing you

know thing to learn about ayahuasca and

plant medicine is something very close

to my heart and I truly believe if

there’s anything that’s going to turn

things around here on the planet

probably gonna be plant medicine so I

hope you guys enjoyed this in this

broadcast we will be back next week with

yet another show if you are subscribed

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be back next week

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