Episode 157 – Conquering Fear, Addiction & Alcoholism, w/ Karla Juvonen

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boy this conversation the human

experiences in session

my name is Xavier katana my guest for

tonight is Karla Juve onin divine Karla

is an author and works as a physician’s

assistant Karla has written her first

book titled from the brink of the drink

which we’re gonna be covering this

evening in the book Karla bears it all

from the toll that addiction can have on

a person’s life and finally her victory

Karla’s mission is to help others

especially those who find themselves in

situations such as the one she’s lived

and survived

Karla it’s truly a pleasure welcome to

hxp

oh thank you so much Xavier for having

me I’m so excited I just it’s just such

a big problem and there’s just so much

stigma and so much hiding within

alcoholism and I think some major

misunderstanding regarding who can be an

alcoholic who looks like an alcoholic

and I assumed that most people who knew

me would never in a million years think

that I was an alcoholic and I was right

so putting my story out there that you

know what an educated successful woman

can indeed become a raging alcoholic and

lose almost everything but the most

important thing is that you can get it

all back and then some with entering

into a recovery and it’s just really

remarkable and I’m so happy to share my

I share in it all the time for this very

reason to try to inspire people to keep

trying to kick it because you can yeah

yeah I absolutely love that so much

and you know in the time that I’ve known

you you are you are one of the most

tenacious people that I’ve encountered

and you’re kind of like the little

Phoenix that could you know the rise

from the ashes and so you know let’s

talk this is your first book and you

know I love giving first-time authors a

chance to tell their story and we mean

we do cherry-pick this and what I

thought when I was looking at his book

was wow this woman has survived you know

every possible direction that you could

kind of cringe and hang on and wonder

what is gonna happen next

that’s what I was thinking when I when I

read this book so you know it being a

first-time author how what made you want

to write the book tell us a little bit

about your your writing process as well

sure so I had never really contemplating

writing a book I thought it would

probably be an undertaking that was far

too challenging for what I was skilled

with I have not done a lot of writing

other than the required writing and

coursework in undergrad and graduate

school but I had told my story at

nauseam really at many different places

and someone actually my first ex-husband

said you know you really should write

this because it really could help some

people and I just was like oh yeah yeah

well I don’t know about that that’s haha

and I started thinking about it some

more and I figured you know what Carla

if you can figure out a way to start the

book that would be interesting and and

kind of a hook to be like okay this

isn’t just gonna be your run-of-the-mill

this is what alcoholism is and this is

what you need to do and you have to jump

on this but it’s just more of a mmm okay

this is a story that I might be able to

relate to and so once I came up with the

big way to begin it then it was just a

matter of my jotted down and

line filled in the blanks and it was

written in three weeks I just came

pouring out very cathartic and actually

even if it had never gotten to anyone

else it was actually a great exercise

for myself yeah I mean it has to be that

it has to be a type of catharsis to

write that all down and look back at it

and you know just a self actualize in a

way this this sort of journey that

you’ve taken and I mean as it turns out

you’ve art you’ve already you’ve almost

captured lightning in a bottle here and

your publisher is giving you you know

you’re working on your second book now

yes it’s in editing already as we speak

actually so Wow okay okay so let’s let’s

get into from the brink of the drink you

know there’s we were talking about this

a little bit in the pre-show you know

there’s such a stigma to people who

suffer from this disease and you know

where do you think that comes from that

that’s Digman that society labels us as

I think it started simply from being

ingrained that it’s a choice that the

first that the the first drink you take

is a choice and that is true so I think

it’s just that people look at it as if

you know there’s a problem and we I

don’t know it’s a problem that was

choice be initiated so it should be a

problem that they just can just fix

right like it’s seen I don’t know it’s

hard to put into words why the stigma is

such but I really think it comes down to

the idea that it’s a moral failing that

people drink they couldn’t stop drinking

because there is somehow less then they

were a bad person

they were the grungy old guy under the

bridge with a paper bag around his

bottle you know they got on Skid Row

because of their own life choices and so

let’s cast them away we certainly don’t

want to catch what they have we don’t

want them a part of our society we

certainly wouldn’t want them practicing

medicine and I think that it just

becomes a situation where because of

that

my professionals particularly medical

professionals and pilots really are

reluctant to even seek treatment or help

because it can be career-ending

absolutely and I mean a lot of this I

think what you’re hinting at is also is

a lot of people are functional

alcoholics and you know they’re they’re

kind of taking a drink and living life

and you know they’re they’re functioning

you know every day so it’s such a

strange thing you know and I and I think

another reason that we connected was you

know of dr. Gabor Montez work and he’s

been on the show and a lot of this you

know stems from childhood which kind of

segues me into the book you know you

started this process of sort of running

away from your problems and you know

using using alcohol and very early on in

your childhood how did that start from

you for you and you know where did this

where did this process begin of using

alcohol in a destructive way for me it

was destructive from the get-go I

remember my first taste of alcohol I was

a little girl and I had the chickenpox

and I had them everywhere including in

my mouth and throat and my parents made

me and my sister

grasshoppers with you creme de menthe

the whole thing and it did help soothe

my throat but more importantly I was

able to sleep and from the get-go in my

life as an infant as a toddler and

really through till today sleep has been

a real challenge for me and so I noticed

but that really helped fast for just a

couple of years and I had really been

watching my parents they drank but they

only drank socially here and there

they’d get friends all the kids would be

involved we’d play games and have a good

time and I could totally see something

change something switching the adults

where they got a little sillier they

laughed a little loud everyone was less

uptight and I told

I noticed that because I wanted some of

that I wanted some of that piece or that

relaxed or that decreased

self-consciousness that I could see even

from a very young age that was helpful

for them and so I I kind of made a plan

and and thought well I wonder if this

will be helpful for me and it certainly

was the the first night that I decided

this is what I’m going to try I was 12

years old and my parents had a liquor

cabinet in my dad’s office and it was

actually a closet a small closet but you

could walk into it turn on the light

shut the door that kind of thing and I

had had a particularly stressful day at

school

trying to be perfect and getting

straight A’s and doing everything I was

supposed to be doing and that was my

first high school year and in my little

town seventh through twelfth grade was

high school and high school was a hard

transition I think it is for almost

every church but I was feeling pressure

and stress and so I snuck in there with

a little tiny juice glass and gin was

what they had the most of so I just

poured two ounces into my little juice

glass then I went into the kitchen and

grabbed what I could find that was sweet

and it happened to be ironically ginger

snaps and I took my my my medicine I

guess my gin and my ginger snaps down to

my room and sipped and snacked until I

fell blissfully asleep and that was how

it started the beginning of the end yes

I mean for me it isn’t for everyone some

some have issues with blackout drinking

and things you know first time they used

that wasn’t the trajectory for me uh-huh

you know it’s amazing that you know this

this compound this drug is available on

any street corner that you go to you can

go and find find this substance and you

know so it’s interesting and you know

with with prohibition that happened it

it’s I mean it’s they’ve tried to

regulate this but you know it it seems

like people use this as as a way to you

know loosen up sometimes if they’re

feeling nervous and they don’t really

recognize

you know the harm that they’re doing the

conditioning that they’re setting you

know this this substance sort of

conditioning where they need a substance

to you know function at some point and

you know when did you go from drinking I

mean you started as a kid in high school

and and that’s when and that’s when you

took that first you know drink but as

you progressed into college how how does

that work you were doing your master’s

program and you know were you drinking

by yourself again or how did it work

yeah I always drink by myself because I

found it to be safer I didn’t want the

headaches of the party at the you know

University of Minnesota with bunch of

people he didn’t know and potentially

drugs and trouble and cops and I just

know so the risk of getting a mine or

the risk of getting in trouble in one

way or another either with the police or

with my parents or with the school that

was enough of a deterrent for me to

decide this one I loved but there’s what

I’m gonna do for the most part by myself

and it was very very functional for me

for a long time

in college I I would get all my studies

done I carried two part-time jobs I go

do what I needed to do but then at night

when it was finally time to go to sleep

I had my bottle of brandy right next to

my bed kind of tucked underneath it and

I would take a few pulls off of that and

that would would do it and I would get

up get up the next morning not hungover

or anything because I hadn’t gotten

drunk

I had just relaxed and and then that’s

an insidious pattern because with

alcohol just like almost every substance

eventually you need more of it to get

that same effect and then it’s also easy

to kind of overshoot because I want to

get that relaxed and not feeling I’m

getting it fast enough and so I’ll drink

more than I did before and then tomorrow

night I might eat even a few drops more

and over year years and years that just

progresses in some people like me into a

really serious serious problem hmm yeah

I I definitely you know can understand

that but it’s it’s odd to me because

it’s

it’s kind of like a parallel you know of

other people I would think that they

start drinking socially and then move to

drinking alone when they’re trying to

cover up their problems or the way they

feel about something but you know it’s

it’s funny to me that you had this

thought well I don’t want to get in

trouble

with these other things so I’ll just

kind of drink by myself oh yeah sneaky

and sort of manipulative from the from

the get-go

it wasn’t that I really didn’t want to

be social but I just didn’t want to get

in trouble huh but I mean it did lead to

that and so just just moving forward in

the timeline a bit you you got into a

relationship and you know I want to talk

about this because I think when we are

in these types of relationships that are

mutually destructive I think it can be

hard to recognize that really so tell us

about a little bit about you know this

this relationship you were in and the

marriage and how that worked how that

dynamic works yeah yeah absolutely well

I met Jim in our graduate studies for a

physician assistant master’s degrees in

Iowa’s Iowa City and my undergrad had

been at a Christian college they were

all studying to be parochial school

teachers or pastors or whomever and who

I was the only one there that seemingly

the drink I was the only one there that

wasn’t a virgin I was the only one there

that was less than in my own mind and so

that’s another reason I kind of kept my

drinking to myself during undergrad and

I wouldn’t have chosen such a

conservative school I had I not been

given a scholarship to go there so that

sort of made the decision an easy one

but it wasn’t an easy three years of

time in fact I say three years because I

powered through it as fast as I could

because I really didn’t care for it it

wasn’t an environment that worked for me

for me I certainly couldn’t be myself

and so I was hiding for a number of

reasons but that’s but that was one of

them but when I got to the University of

Iowa that’s a big ten you know big

school

Iowa City’s college town so much fun

restaurants and bars and nightlife and

everything catering to the graduate

students and older undergraduate

students and I was struggling with our

first summer we had a really really

tricky biochemistry course and we were

going through the Krebs cycle and

diabetes and glucose and insulin and how

this all works and it was really hard

for me but I met Jim and Jim was also a

Minnesota native and at that point there

weren’t very many PA programs in the

country so people were from all over the

country so he and I sort of met and

became friends just simply because we

were both Minnesotans but then he had

recently graduated from about from a

biochemistry program so this biochem

class was his cake for him and he was

also a fantastic teacher and loved to

sit down and go through it and and share

and he teach and so that’s how it began

he agreed to kind of tutor me and we

studied hard and I got it I passed it

that type of thing but we also begin to

realize eli’s how much we had in common

we laughed a lot we studied hard and

then we drank hard and I could tell

right away that Jim was just as heavy of

a drinker as I was if not even heavier

and that was so refreshing to me it

should have been it enough but instead

it was refreshing because I felt like oh

thank god I can drink how I want it out

in the open with him and normalized it

and yes it normalized it because he was

using just as much more and people with

substance disorders tend to do that you

know that you’ll see the the ones on

Skid Row are kind of congregated

together in a drug house or whatever

like likes like it just simply does you

know a smoker will typically seek out

another smoker to be in their

relationship within their romantic

relationship with anyway because it’s

pretty challenging to have one with it

and one without

and so for for me it did it gave me sort

of a license to ha drink how I wanted to

and it gave him the same license in

Reverse and because it sort of

normalized it for us it just kept

insidiously getting to be more more

frequent we went from just in the

evenings to okay we’ll do evenings and

and Saturdays during the days because we

lived on the lake and people would come

over and go boating and whatever we

could use for an excuse to drink we’d do

it and then pretty soon it was as soon

as we walked in the door door at night

and it was all weekend long and it’s

over over time that just kind of became

this gradual march to death by alcohol

and and I just didn’t see it and I

certainly didn’t want to see it because

as as the book shows later on that

marriage fells fell apart which will

happen if there are three entities

within a union it just doesn’t work very

well Princess Diana used to say that

about Prince Charles and her marriage

that there were three of us in this

marriage because of his involvement

continuously with Camilla and I feel

like that was the case with with our

marriage there were three of us from the

get-go and really the God in our

relationship was was spoo’s and it’s

just not a very solid foundation to base

your relationship on absolutely not I

mean what a dangerous mix of different

elements that you could lead to you know

such an explosive state which it kind of

did you know moving along in the story

but you know I just want to pause here

for a second and you know see if we can

give the crowd

different ways you know to recognize

this I mean maybe there is someone out

there listening to this and perhaps

they’re in a relationship where this is

going on you know and you know I think

what you said rings so true that you

know you weren’t just in a relationship

with Jim you were also also in a

relationship with alcohol and it was

like you know

you guys had this love triangle with you

know drinking together and each other

and you know I’m just wondering was is

there anything in your mind that maybe

if you could go back and talk to your

younger self that you would tell

yourself like you know this is this is

what you need to watch out for well

absolutely

the first thing there is if you’re in a

relationship or contemplating getting

into a relationship and one of the main

reasons is that you feel relief that you

won’t have to hide something that you

otherwise do I mean that’s a giant red

flag right there but for me and anyone I

think who’s already abusing substances

you also feel pretty crappy about

yourself you feel pretty lonely and so

it’s very easy to glom on and settle for

something that isn’t necessarily right

and I ignored so many red flags Jim was

actually married to someone else when I

met him in Iowa City and we proceeded to

become friends and then more than

friends and he ultimately divorced her

and married me him being married should

have been a giant red flag right yeah

you know and and in him having

tendencies even early in our

relationship to become the angry drop

the explosive drunk the punch holes in

doors drunk I should have mmm no way but

I married him and even on our honeymoon

we we were drinking the whole time of

course many people do on their

honeymoons but for us we used it as a

reason that we should be hammered every

single day for the two weeks that we

were there and the first night very

first night we drank way too much and we

ordered room service late at night and I

passed out before the room service

showed up and he was so furious fueled

by alcohol theory this wasn’t how he

really was but you know that he ended up

waking me up by throwing all of the food

and the everything the bottles

everything all around the room so I I

took a blanket and pillow and barricaded

myself in the bathroom on the first

night of my honeymoon but instead of

yeah instead of eating crow tucking my

tail between my legs telling my folks

that yeah yeah you just spent 12 grand

for nothing

I want out which is what I should have

done I didn’t want to embarrass myself I

didn’t want them to know that I had made

a bad choice even though they already

knew it and and I mean we just kept

doing our thing and kept covering it and

kept plodding along and if it sounds

like Jim is a bad man he is not he’s

funny and he’s charismatic he’s scary

smart he can speak and he’s a professor

and he’s such a great teacher and he’s

so talented and a lot of things so I

don’t I guess I don’t regret that I know

him and that I knew him what I regret is

us not getting ourselves together before

we contemplated actually moving forward

any further in our relationship because

had we quit drinking either we would

have decided we didn’t have that much in

common or I think our relationship would

have been much better in the long run

you know we have two beautiful kids

together and now Jim has just celebrated

just about to celebrate two years of

sobriety which is fantastic and so you

know it has really come full circle and

we’re able to co-parent the kids and I

gave him his one-year chip I’ve invited

him to my meetings and talk about what

sobriety can bring if you’re out there

wondering if you’ll be better or worse

if you get sober it might take some time

to figure out what your new normal is

but it’s so possible and anything can

happen Jim and I are friends we

practically tried to kill each other

when we were getting divorce and now we

are friends because we’re both sober hmm

yeah I mean wow that’s it’s such a

powerful thing to hear about because I

think most of the time we don’t realize

like when we are when we are

subjectively in a situation that is Oh

in overall negative for us we don’t we

don’t immediately recognize that it is

that you know or if we don’t if we do we

don’t want to acknowledge that you know

we don’t want to admit it to ourselves

and so adding adding alcohol to that I

think is a very dangerous mix of you

know a very already toxic sort of

situation you know Carla I want to talk

about someone someone mentioned this in

the chat and I I want to I want to talk

about the neural chemistry of this you

know I think when when you’re in love

you know your neuro chemistry is already

sort of going you know in all directions

but you know when you add alcohol to

this what is alcohol doing to the brain

when we’re more drinking you know kind

of in this way right well exactly it’s

in most simple terms when you drink or

use any kind of substance certain

neurotransmitters in your brain are

fired up so everyone’s heard about

dopamine and serotonin and there’s also

gaba and glutamine and all these

different pathways and different

neurotransmitters that help to their

messengers so they send one message in

to another neurotransmitter in the brain

dopamine helps you with your your mood

and it helps with learning and it helps

with movement and pleasure and serotonin

increases people’s mood increases their

appetite helps with sleep all those

things and when you’re in love you’re

getting some natural surges of those

hormones or killer chemicals I should

say when you’re when you’re drinking

you’re also releasing massive amounts of

dopamine and serotonin and then of

course there’s the inevitable when you

win it you starts to wear off you have

this awful crash

we’re either you have to get through

some time without your drink or you just

say forget it and go ahead and start

drinking and decrease your standard a

little bit more okay I was gonna start

drinking only at 5:00 now I’m gonna

start at 4:00 or 55 because I just can’t

take it anymore

and you kind of change the change your

own rules based on that so basically

when you get a relationship let’s say

that’s the fire so Jim and I are earth

fire and and alcohols obviously that the

fuel when you put that on you’ll get

that surge of flame at the beginning

that is just so addictive and so amazing

and oh my god do you want more and then

when you crash it’s just like and

there’s not even embers anymore fire

just goes out it’s done it’s dead it’s

awful

so the highs and lows in a relationship

like that are addictive in themselves

but when you add alcohol to it the

swings are even greater and it’s just

nearly impossible to find a time in a

relationship like that to actually have

coherent logical conversations or to

make decisions wisely it’s just sort of

crashing through life hoping that there

isn’t an explosion at some point but

inevitably there usually is unless you

can get a hold on it Wow

I mean yeah it seems like just a series

of near escapes and you know you’re

you’re avoiding sort of inevitable

tragedy and I mean wow it’s it’s a it’s

amazing to hear about this from you know

perspective like yours in in February of

2012 there was an event in your life

that you know for most people it’s gonna

be hard to deal with an event like this

what what happened in your life in

February 2012 and how did you know the

drinking aspect of things come into play

with with what happened yeah absolutely

I’ll apologize up front if I get a

little choked up with this one it’s a

tough one for me my cousin she was four

years older than me so at the time she

was 43 I had been in her wedding you

know we we grew up together

she owned a bar and struggled with her

own alcohol use although I’m not sure to

what extent because she had sort of

begun to isolate away from the family

and had had a failed marriage and just

some things I think she was possibly

embarrassed about her anyway she just

wasn’t around much anymore which is

something something that I’ll I’ll

always regret having not taken the time

to reach out to her a little bit more

than I did not sure if she would have

taken the calls anyway but um she shot

herself in the head in her bathtub fully

closed with the curtains shut and

everything because you didn’t want to

make a mess left to left a note just

basically saying she knew she wasn’t

living the lifestyle that she should be

and sorry that she let everyone down and

that type of thing and it was

devastating I mean when I saw my aunt

draped over her casket when they were

trying to lower her into the grip you

know that’s just it should never happen

where parents have to bury their child

and when it was a self-inflicted gunshot

wound

he just had to know what pain was

involved there and I did really work

hard to help my aunt through it because

they were doing a lot of what everyone

does when there’s a suicide what if what

if I did why didn’t I you know you

should have a blame and guilt and shame

and just all of these horrible emotions

that would come into play and it’s just

it was just awful and I I could see I

could I knew that there was a lot to do

with alcohol with her and and so you’d

think huh she got so depressed because

of her alcoholism that she resorted to

to suicide and and that could be my fate

if I don’t get a hold of this but at

that time I was already kind of in

survival mode at that point I was I was

within the year of going to my first

treatment myself and so for me it

actually just increased my drinking

because I needed to mask that pain and

that loss and that sadness and that fear

that all comes with something like that

I just wanted it to go away but the

problem is is if you don’t deal with

grief you know you know the stages of

grief denial and anger and acceptance

finally if you don’t deal with with

though those and in my case has numbed

it then again every day I’d wake up and

I’d have to relive the pain because I

had numbed it enough to forget the day

before but it was still there the next

day

and I think it was much more intense

each day because I hadn’t started even

to deal with with actually grieving it’s

it’s impossible to fully accept or

griever or understand anything if you’re

drunk it just doesn’t work it’s just

impossible yeah I mean um Wow

first of all my condolences I mean what

a what a story and it you know it and

you as you said it should have scared

you straight you know it should have

woke you up in a way and it didn’t you

know and I and why I mean why do you

think you know is obviously the drinking

is directly related to this and perhaps

you know the level of the pain the

intensity of the pain want you wanted to

mask this as much as you could and so

yeah absolutely you turn to you know

alcohol to do this right and and alcohol

going back just a little bit to can the

neurobiology it rewards us in two ways

there’s a the positive reinforcement of

drinking is what you would think you

know relaxed or forget the pain or or

whatever but at that stage in my life I

was already definitely a ELCA holic

so there’s also negative reinforcement

and what that means is if I if I don’t

drink I’ll feel terrible but if I drink

I’ll feel not so bad and and so you know

that if you don’t drink that’s going to

be negative so that that that is a

reinforcement to drink more and so when

there’s a physical dependence that has

started and it had definitely started

with me by that point wait I’m so sorry

to bumpy there I there’s just there’s

just some clipping happening with Skype

and I just want to restart the call

really quick guys just hang tight for me

really fast

all right guys sorry about that we are

back Carla are you there Carla I am ok

let’s see if that fixes it hopefully it

does okay so we were talking about the

neural chemistry of the effect of this

on your brain and we were talking about

the death of your cousin in and she took

her life in the hardest way I mean it

was a suicide and this and I and the

last thing I said was that this should

have been a wake-up call for you but it

wasn’t it wasn’t and then you started to

go into the the neural chemistry of this

why you know why it didn’t happen

way for you yeah well for those of you

who already heard this I’m sorry but

there’s there’s just a couple of ways

that alcohol provides reward and if a

person like me was already into a

physical dependence that’s pretty

intense and the first is that of course

alcohol does what we’d expect it to the

reason that many people drink is to

relax is to forget and for me he at that

point it was to numb the pain of having

lost her in such a horrific way a but by

that point there’s also the negative

reinforcement and what that means is

that if I don’t drink I’ll feel like

crap and so you know that hey I’m gonna

get this crappy feeling to go away or

I’m gonna ward it off if I just drink

and and I’m also gonna have the benefit

of being able to forget this pain but

then like I mentioned earlier the

problem is is that when you wake up the

next morning here we go again the pain

is still there right I mean you have to

deal with this at some point or it’s

just going to it’s gonna haunt you until

you do it’s gonna haunt you until you

eventually do that you know I want to I

want to move forward a little bit in the

story and you you started drinking at

work right and it’s it got worse and

worse um you know what brought you to

the point where you felt like you needed

to drink at work how did you get away

with it because you know I mean wasn’t

what wasn’t there someone around that

would have seen you working and drinking

and noticed that you were doing that

tell us about that please yeah well I’m

a physician assistant and at the time I

was working family practice I had done

that for 17 years and so in family

practice I wasn’t working with a team of

because surgeons and scrub texts in the

whole deal it was just me and I had a

nurse but the nurse and I as most people

will know when you go to see the doctor

you don’t see the nurse and the doc at

the same time the nurse checks Iain and

does all that stuff and then

you kind of our two ships passing so my

nurse and I would just sort of dance

around each others so that wasn’t an

issue I had an office mate but she and I

only overlapped one day per week so I

had my personal office to myself most of

the time well but how it got started for

a long time it had been where I got home

from work and I never even took my coat

off or my shoes off and I went straight

to the liquor cabinet and I wouldn’t

even bother with that first pull with a

glass just right out of the bottle and

then I could barely wait till I got home

so I started keeping a traveller or a

flask in my car my house was two miles

from my work but I did not think I could

make it from work to home after a

stressful day without having that so I I

would start drinking in the car on the

way home and right I mean two miles

can’t make it two miles usually can wait

two miles if you gotta pee I mean this

is crazy

right but that’s the way it was and as

you can imagine the story going and the

ball rolling

pretty soon at home at night wasn’t

enough and I started going home for

quote lunch and at that point I would

take a few slugs of vodka I wouldn’t eat

anything but I’d take a few slugs of

vodka to get myself a little bit less

shaky kind of ward off the nausea and

the sweats that I’d been feeling and

that would give me the boost to get

through the afternoon and and I’d start

drinking as soon as I hit the car and as

soon as I was at home until I passed out

whether that was in my bed or on the

floor who knows it was it was always

drink to pass out that was always the

purpose but even that was not enough

after a while and I think we addicts and

alcoholics

we make little rules for ourselves like

okay I’m only gonna drink on the

weekends okay I’m only gonna drink at

the bar okay I’m only gonna drink at

home okay I’m only gonna drink beer and

not anything hard and it tends to be

that when we make these little rules

with ourselves if we’re truly an

alcoholic we blow right through you just

you just can’t it just gets worse it’s a

progressive and chronic primary brain

disease it doesn’t get better if you’re

continuing to use a substance and so my

lunchtime trips were not enough and I

just decided you know what nobody has

picked up on this I have not had a

single patient complaint I have had

nobody in the office ask me anything I

had I’m getting by with it I’m getting

away with it so I started filling my

water bottle with vodka and that way in

between each patient I could go back to

my office and take some sips and do a

note or write some orders or whatever I

needed to do and then go back and see

the next patient and so then I wasn’t in

this giant rush to get out of work

anymore cuz I was there I was I was able

to have my drink and do my work at the

same time which is crazy and took way

more effort on my part than it should

have

I could run circles around myself six

years sober now comparatively as far as

my energy levels and but I still got it

done

my uphill battle but sorry I didn’t mean

to bump you there go why do you think we

have this persistence to go back to

these things that are essentially bad

for us we know we know this is bad for

us but we continue to go back into it

and do it over and over well it kind of

depends on what exactly you’re talking

about but with substances it goes back

to the brain and we know so little about

how about the brain but we redo some of

these neurotransmitters in some of these

pathways and and it truly is your in

your brain and it’s got the compulsion

and your body’s physically addicted to

whatever it oh it’s really hard to kick

that and

so I think we keep coming back to it

because the effort required to either

avoid it or stay away from it or go cold

turkey or whatever is worse and harder

and more challenging than just staying

with the status quo and against that

adapting that you referred to earlier

when we were talking about my marriage

and in that when you’re in it you don’t

necessarily realize how bad it is you’ve

probably heard the story the boiling

frog thing but it goes that you know if

you put out a little dish of cold water

for your pet frog

she’ll frolic and she’ll play in it and

she’ll jump around it she loves frogs

love water tomorrow you make it a little

warmer

she still Daleks she still messes around

a little bit in the water but you can

tell it’s not quite as enjoyable but she

still gets used to it because she wants

to swim and she wants to drink

keep fast-forwarding every day heating

the water and that frog will jump into

that boiling water and boil herself

because she has adapted and that’s true

it’s a real real deal

but it’s a great representation

although somewhat cryptic I guess of

what we do it’s it’s we’re used to it

and even though it’s a completely messed

up normal it is still our normal and it

still feels normal and it still feels

like it’s easier than the alternative

because with the alternative there’s

also a lot of unknowns which creates

giant amount of fear Who am I going to

be without the drink will I have any fun

without the drink what am I gonna have

to lose all my friends if I quit

drinking and is my marriage gonna fail

if I drink and he doesn’t or vice versa

and what if I go get treatment and I

have to tell them at work why I’m gone

for 12 weeks or what if you know will

they take me back or I won’t be able to

pay my bills for three months QED TSA’s

for not doing something about it

our miles long hmm yeah I mean that’s so

true and I mean you nailed it I mean you

you enter the state of you know

substance dependence where you feel like

you need that to behave a certain way

and you know I think I think with all

the alcohol specifically there you know

just Nero chemically you know it’s it’s

psychologically as bad as it is

physically and that’s what’s the most

scary about being the availability of it

you know being able to go down the

street and acquire this stuff you so you

know moving forward moving along here

you you hit a point where you know you

eventually got to detox you your first

trip to detox and I mean your your

father took you to detox right yes he

did so okay so I mean there’s there’s a

few things here you you felt like it was

a jail um why why do you feel like you

had that reaction I find I find that

when I read stories about this that

people people don’t respond to you know

their first treatment well it seems like

traditional detox seems ineffective in

relationship to you know curbing these

types of addiction so you know what was

your experience like in this in the

center you call it a prison how did it

work yes lucky for me to even think

about it but first of all and we can get

into this much more as the call

progresses but detox is not a solution

it is not fixing it is very different

than rehab or a program that whatever

program you might decide to do that

whatever it is detox is getting you

stopped that’s it but you eluded to that

it’s both of psychological compulsion

and a physical one well detox gets you

out of the scary withdrawal of the

physical addiction but it does

absolutely nothing to curb that

psychological addiction that needs

months weeks years of work at least in

my experience but yeah so I went to

detox and I was going on my own accord

it wasn’t that I didn’t think I need

but once you get in there and say okay I

want I need detox and then I was very

honest with the counselors and everyone

because I thought okay here I go I’m

gonna get the help and it was really it

was really shocking what it felt like to

have my a bunch of my rights taken away

and they take away your rights as a new

detox or any detox participant because

your risk of suicide your risk of

eloping your risk of doing something

stupid is really high when you’re in a

withdrawal period as is your risk of

especially if you’re addicted to alcohol

or benzos the actual withdrawal part can

be fatal if not medically managed

because of the risk of seizures but yes

so I went in and I told him what I

needed and he told him my whole truth

and nothing but the truth and so then

what happens is you get stripped and

strip searched and they take all of your

belongings I couldn’t have makeup

because it was in a glass bottle and I

couldn’t have a compact because it had a

mirror that could be sharp we didn’t

have mirrors over our sinks or anywhere

the bathroom doors were kind of these

weird kiddy Korner with cutout on on the

top and the bottom so that you could

never lock yourself in there anything

there the water was all run on little on

those little ones you have to push a

button to get like ten-second spray they

were all like that so you couldn’t drown

yourself there were no plastic bags

allowed every the garbage cans and

things were lined with paper sacks there

was just all these things that door

handles are real weird because then you

can’t tie something to it they cut out

the strings of my sweat shirts and my

sweat pants and everything and I

couldn’t have any shoes and they take

away your phone and take away your

person take away everything and I felt

like that was overkill I felt like I

should just get in there they give me

some valium I get over it and I could

play on my phone while I got through it

nope wasn’t like that at all

mmm Wow I mean it seems like the system

is almost you know designed to kind of

push people

a from wanting to go into you know

processes like dis couple like recovery

I I want to know you know what for you

was the bottom you know something common

that we hear is you know you okay you’ll

recognize this when you hit you know

your bottom was there a bottom for you

yes there was but it was a low bottom

for me personally I had to lose my

relationships I had to lose my job and

then my medical license and then my

National Board Certification and my Drug

Enforcement Agency license sure none of

which are easy to obtain and certainly

not easy to get back if you’ve lost them

I had to go on state medical I and then

ultimately I lost the ability to even

see my children because I drank through

a paid parenting supervising time visit

and so I lost them and so the only

person who was still taking my phone

calls was my mom and even she was pretty

wary because I had manipulated and lied

and worn her out caused a rift between

her and my dad at them and my sister and

it was it was just a mess and I had to I

had to lose all of that before I

realized okay now what am I going to do

about this and that is where I got to on

one February morning where I had already

been in detox twice and Rehab twice in

that ten month period of time and I had

continued to drink through it and I had

continued to just lose more and more and

there I was in my walk-in closet I had a

mansion really at the time 6000 square

feet and Thera was in my closet you know

they joke about closet drinkers that was

me I really

was a closet drinker because I had begun

to hide it in there for so long and so

there I was me and every pill in the

house that I had left over from years

and years of you know how you keep

leftover prescriptions and I had all

that and my laptop and my phone and my

vodka and I was in my closet and I was

researching online how do you kill

yourself with pills what concoction of

what I had would do it because I was

done I knew that it was over and of all

things one of those annoying pop-ups I

usually hate and ignore came up on my

computer screen I’m sorry this is hard

and it said do you need help and for

some reason I called the number Wow and

the guy on the other other guy on the

other end was his name was Phil I never

knew his last name I wish I did Phil if

you’re out there I owe you in my life

and here he’s a rehab broker he’s just

trying to find placement for people at

rehabs and Phil rehabs and get a

commission right but he spent two hours

on the phone with me really turned into

a suicide mission for suicide prevention

mission and before the phone call was

out he had got me hooked up with a rehab

in Florida that would accept the crappy

insurance I had at the time a plane

ticket a cab ride coming and he kept on

the phone with me until all of this was

in place I think partially so I wouldn’t

back out but partially I think I scared

him and he wanted to stay on there with

me until you knew I was safe it’s pretty

remarkable good samaritan duty there I

wonder if he quit the job the next day I

don’t know it sounds like you have your

own angel that day and you know it’s

like the pop up that saved your life

basically oh for sure I smile every time

I see pop ups now because you just never

know oh my god Wow you know Carla we’re

running out of time here quickly but I I

want to

– you know the twelve-step say there’s a

bunch of stuff that I didn’t cover here

I

what is your regard to the the 12 steps

because I know that you you know you

you’ve connected with that and you write

about this and so you know what is your

experience with this and and the

experience of other alcoholics I mean do

you do you feel like the twelve steps

work did they work for you

they absolutely 100% worked and work for

me it’s not something that much to my

chagrin as a list writer and checker

offer of busses it’s not something that

you do the twelve steps and then you’re

done and you graduate you get your

little card – putting your wallet and

your good to go that’s not at all the

case it’s a lifelong thing but that is

not to say that a 12-step program is the

only way that people get to drinking

under control there’s smart recovery

there’s harms reduction there’s

medication assisted treatment there’s oh

a plethora of other ways and and I

honestly am of the school of thought

that I do not care how you get sober if

just do whatever you can to get there

but for me that the 12 steps really

resonated probably again because I am a

list keeper and Anna in a box checker

and I like that kind of structure it’s

really good for me and I had lost a

great deal structure during my

alcoholism as all substance abusers do

structure becomes a thing of the past

but it was really really good for me the

first step is the most important one and

the only one that you need to do

perfectly and basically that’s admitting

I got a major problem here and and it’s

wrecking my life and that’s it with any

addiction if you can fill in the blank

there with you know I’m eating too much

and it’s ruining my life I’m gambling

too much I’m watching porn or whatever

it is you just fill in the blank and so

any of these 12-step programs that you

attend kind of use the same premise so

I’m not ascribing to a specific program

by any means nor should i if I if I were

because I I think that that’s not

helpful to say there’s only one way I

think that everybody’s recovery is a

little bit different but for me getting

step one right was perf was really

important and by doing that

my counselor had me write out an

exhaustive list of what happens to me

when I drink and and on the flip side

you know he also had me write a letter

like a like a longing goodbye letter

what is it you love about alcohol what

is it that you can miss about alcohol

and I really wrote it as if I was

writing to a lover because honestly at

the end that was my lover it was my best

friend my lover my partner it slept in

my bed with me you know it was really

all I had left so step one was

incredibly important except for is when

they typically ask you to search through

your past what kind of things did you do

that hurt people what kind of things

were done to you that hurt you what kind

of resentments do you hold what kind of

sexual indiscretions have you been

involved with in your life and basically

writing it all down and for me a person

who always thought that I’m a really

good person I’m a really nice person in

that hundred and six pages that I wrote

of my fourth step I really couldn’t find

a whole lot of evidence to support that

I was a good person

not not much at all and I it was really

helpful for me to look at all that

because I was like God good god I do not

want a sequel to this I don’t want to

have to write this all out again in

another 20 years that oh look at all the

crap I’ve done now so that was really

helpful but the letter was also helpful

to me because I hadn’t realized how much

I loved it

and that was I had to grieve even though

it was killing me I had to grieve that

loss yeah I actually bookmarked the list

and the letter just because it’s so

cringy you know to be honest just

reading it it made me feel like oh my

god you know wow you know I’m never

drinking again

so you know I just moving along here

right you know what I think this is

important I think the spirituality part

of this is crucial and how did that take

place for you how did that come into

play for you

that’s a great question and it was

pretty easy for me personally because I

had been raised Lutheran Christian and I

believed I had a God that I believed in

and I was pretty solid in my faith so

much so that I had really distanced

myself from anything God anything church

I had even stopped praying unless it was

a really particularly bad bender and I

was praying to die because I didn’t feel

like I was the I didn’t feel like God

would want me I was a piece of crap and

I knew it he knew it everyone knew it

and so I had really veered away from

that but the 12-step program step two in

Step three do get into spirituality and

and this actually hangs up a lot of

people it’s like I’m not joining 12-step

program I don’t believe in God I’m an

atheist I’m agnostic I don’t there’s no

way I can get any spiritual and that’s

okay you still can totally do the

program even a 12-step program if that’s

not your thing what spirituality is is

getting to is that connectedness that

being whole in bond body and mind and

most importantly realizing that we are

but a speck each one of us in this great

universe and that we don’t have control

over very much and that we don’t have

control over this either and we need

some help and that is so hard especially

for professionals I think with

alcoholism to ask for help because we’ve

been independent and we’ve been well

educated and we’ve cared for ourselves

and others for as long as we can

remember and now all of a sudden we’re

supposed to be asking for help we’re

supposed to be reaching out to others

when we have a craving to drink we’re

supposed to be sharing that hundred and

six page fourth step with another human

being are you kidding me but that all

ties in to the spiritual component I’ve

got a lot of friends in my health care

recovery meeting who just they’re just

that group is their higher power they

know that if they need help if they need

to run something by people bring it to

the group and we’re all in their corner

and if anyone has a crisis there’d be

half a dozen people like at least

showing up to help them

that is a that’s a pretty spiritual

experience in itself of feeling that

sense of belonging that a lot of times

many of us started drinking to try to

belong or to try to feel better about

ourselves socially and so that find that

type of connection with people a real

genuine authentic connection that

doesn’t have anything to do with alcohol

that’s new for a lot of us and it’s just

an incredible it I cannot say enough for

the fellowship of any type of support

group because nobody’s going to be able

to help a person the same way that

someone can who’s been there who’s done

it and gotten through it is more

important you know we share these

stories I go to treatment centers and

the jail and meet with these women who

are kind of brand-new and gosh that’s so

important for me to look back and see oh

yeah that’s where I don’t wanna be again

I remember that I remember that but then

on the flip side they can hopefully look

at me and my story and what I was able

to get through and how I’m able to do

good now and find that inspirational

that even if someone is bottom barrel as

me made it that they can too and and

your listeners out there I know it can

seem awful and you’ve got an intelligent

base that listens to you and that

actually is a detriment because we tend

to think this is 12-step thing that’s

way too simple or we can outsmart it we

we got master’s degrees PhDs or whatever

right and we should be able to be

smarter than this but it has nothing to

do with brain power it’s it’s it’s not

that at all so making those little deals

with yourself or trying to figure out

how you can use parts of what’s

recommended to you in rehab and not

other parts that’s a recipe for disaster

I know this because I did it I lived it

and I know it yeah you know I think the

most powerful aspect of this book was

that I felt like I was with you through

the journey of it you know and as I was

reading it I felt like I was connected

to your struggle with it and I think the

first time that I felt like as a reader

reading it I felt you

the first time that you kind of there

was a light at the end of the tunnel so

to speak was the moment where you you

know sort of recognized that you’re in

fact blessed that you know you you

started to have gratitude for you know

your life and who you are and I think I

think that was the first time unless I’m

mistaken that you know there was this

positive acknowledgment from from you

you know about yourself and I think that

that’s so important yes and I think that

that removing the substance and starting

to get a hold of what it had done to me

how it hurt me and realizing that again

that step one work just admitting holy

cow this has caused this and then doing

something about it and feeling like as I

was learning from these people who had a

couple years or eight years or however

many years of sobriety and looking at

them and be like oh oh I I think I can

do this I think I want what she has or

he has and they’re not drinking and that

gave me inspiration and my sponsor and

my counselors and anyone in the program

continually stress gratitude and so at

first you know my gratitude list was

fairly small

I had my health back I had plenty to eat

I was warm I you know those those basics

so already out of the gate fresh in

rehab I was better off than half of the

world’s population and so it was really

important for me to look at it that way

and then as time passed I start adding

to that gratitude list and little things

that I had taken for granted before I

got to add back on that list I tell you

that’s a pretty cool thing when amazing

relationship with your kids gets to be

added back to a list that it had

previously disappeared from that’s

that’s what this is all about is

regaining some things and and and

getting a life that’s authentic genuine

real and meaningful that that I never

imagined

as possible so am i grateful recovering

alcoholic

absolutely when people used to say that

my first meetings I would be so upset

like seriously grateful recovering

alcoholic there there is nothing to be

grateful about here this sucks I don’t

want it I don’t want to be it I don’t

want to be in this group but eventually

over time you start to see that oh wait

a minute I’ve gotten some pretty cool

things happen because because of my

alcoholism not in spite of but because

of and I am indeed grateful every single

day that I get to wake up and get to be

sober and get to do it another day I’m

not cured I’ll never be cured and every

day’s but a reprieve from the addiction

and if I were to pick up today I’d be

worse off than I was the last time I

drank in that airport toilet stall back

before I got sober because it progresses

even if you’re not actively drinking it

gets worse it’s just waiting for you and

a lot of us including myself had to test

out that theory there’s no way this

disease gets worse if I’ve been away

from booze for three months it should be

much easier for me to control it now

right not at all it does those those

neurotransmitters start doing the exact

same thing they were doing before and

it’s you need more you need it more

often it’s it’s confounding I mean ahead

I think another reason that this story

is so resounding is that it’s just it’s

just real you know it’s it’s just raw

and real and that’s the way life is you

know it’s not it’s not pretty it’s

actually quite ugly and it that’s

sometimes that’s that’s exactly how life

is you know and yeah but you know I I

want to give you a chance to address you

know the the audience and if if anyone’s

out there and they’re hearing this

message and you know here you are you

are you know in every way a success

story you’re still alive and you have

this opportunity to you know write about

write about this experience that you’ve

that you’ve in a way you conquered you

know you didn’t let it conquer you you

conquered it and you know here you are

on this show writing a book about it

what about you know what about the

people that are alone out there and

they’re struggling what what can you say

to them what can how can we reach them

yeah well it’s so hard because often

when you’re in the throes of the

addiction you you don’t want to be

reached and and usually there’s very

little that anyone else out there can

say to make someone want to get better

or to fix their problem for them or to

push them into rehab I know for me I

couldn’t truly get better until it was

my idea but I would encourage

particularly you chronic relapsing out

there who think you’re lost cause

you’ve been in 30 treatment centers and

it you just can’t can’t get it you keep

trying I’ve seen that I’ve seen people

go through that many rehabs and detoxes

and centers and finally finally

something happens and they get it but

that’s because they kept trying and they

didn’t give up and let it kill them

because that is what’s gonna happen you

end up if you’re a chronic serious

alcoholic it just leads to jails

institutions and death it’s a very grim

prospect that starts from a few sips of

alcohol so it’s very dangerous and I

would implore you to keep trying to read

everything you can get to join some

online support groups to find websites

and blogs where you connect with

somebody go on Twitter there’s recovery

Posse there’s all these different groups

on on Twitter where it’s you don’t have

to even tell who you really are but you

can get some major support that way and

that can help you feel not so alone but

yet in somewhat of a safe anonymous way

get out there somebody has gone through

what you’re going through and they can

be able to tell you their story

how they got there and how they got

better it’s all about experience

strength and hope in this program it’s

why it works that you know no matter

what your program is the people who’ve

been in it for a while helps newcomers

and that’s the way it should be in life

don’t you think for sure

I mean Karla this is I mean I’m so glad

that you are here still with us today

and that you’ve written this story and

done this and it’s such a as I said it’s

such a resounding just realness to this

where can people go to pick up this book

is there a website that they can go to

to find this book yep absolutely of

course you can get it on Amazon and

Goodreads and Barnes & Noble Target

anyplace books are sold as far as

reaching me which I invite and love you

can reach me at from the brink at

yahoo.com that’s my personal email and

also I have a website of the same title

from the brink org and there you’ll find

some blog posts and some connections and

a link to the book there are two but

hopefully with those types of not just

my links with all of the different

supports available up there your

listeners have a lot to choose from and

and you can do it guys you really can

Wow guys I mean what a story

and Carla I just thank you so much for

being here guys we’re gonna get out of

here the book is called from the brink

of the drink

Kylee recommend this read my guest

Carla Giovanni they’ll get that

eventually but you guys can find this

book from the brink of the drink online

as Carla said and you may have this far

thank you so much for listening we will

be back next week with another episode

have a good night