Transcript for Steven Kotler – Last Tango in Cyberspace

If you’re still with us I sincerely apologize the power we just had a power outage here we’re back we. were back Stephens with me Stephen I I I just had a panic attack I didn’t know what to do I mean but what was the last thing that we were talking about because? we were right on this this great we’re talking about will technology be make us more lonely or more connected and I think you know and especially with brain.

interface connect technology god I hate to say this stuff out loud because there’s it sounds so strange but there’s I mean it seems like we’re going to be a you know they’ve linked people. already together who can play video games telepathically we can now control drones telepathically um you know with the brain computer interfaces not telepathically but we’re using EEG.

signals and things along those lines but we’re controlling drones were playing video games over the internet we’re sending words back and forth there was an experiment a couple years ago where. they literally set thoughts from France to India and back and forth over the Internet using BCI technology that this. is a level of connectivity that and we don’t even know what I mean that’s you and me inside the same head together that’s where the technology is moving?

that’s where people are pushing it and that’s where billions and billions of dollars of investment is flowing in to this stuff too right because a lot of. this technology is being developed so we have a chance to compete with AI that’s the thinking right we need this technology because we need to supercharge our brains because we’re. gonna be you know in a world with AI and we need to keep up and that’s the thinking and there are a lot of people deeply committed to it and a lot of the.

people who are deeply committed are really really wealthy and really worried about this problem and they’re spending their money on it and so it’s science fiction as all this sounds to me it’s. all moving and that you know I you know even at a lesser level in stealing fire I talked about you know and I spent time at USC with.

Ellie who is the first AI psychologist that ever was ever developed and Ellie was built by the Department of Defense because they had a you know rising. problem of soldiers suicide and the best way to kind of solve silver soldier suicide is early Diagnostics right you want to look for warning signs of PTSD. late on sent PTSD especially and a depression and the best way to do that is an interview with a psychologist a sociologist and there was no way to.

scale it up they went holy crap we can’t scale it up we’ve got to deal with this problem can we build a diagnostic AI and they build. Ellie and Ellie literally can read 60 I thought this is five years ago four years ago and I sat down with Ellie and then she was reading 60 different vocal. cues facial cues biometrics physiological indicators you know back then Ali knew me better than I knew myself and the conversation right Ellie I mean you look at the screen Ellie.

looks like a like a 35 year old Hispanic woman that’s like it’s an avatar but that’s what she looks like conservatively dressed and crazy stuff one soldiers actually prefer talking to. Ellie than they do talking to regular psychologists and to Ellie as a diagnostic tool again five years ago four years ago was it like 80% and psychologists aren’t even that good and.

it was getting better and better over time and the same kind of technology is being built into autonomous cars and you’re like well why the hell would you. do that this is another thing I talked about in the last tango but if you’re you know uber is rolling out autonomous taxis in major cities this year right? robot taxis no drivers found if you’re not honest taxi you need to be able to read human emotion at a distance so they have programmed these the in the lidar.

sensors on top of them one of the things they’re scanning for is human facial expressions and they’re scanning it because if you’re angry and you’re a hundred feet in front of an autonomous. car you’re much more likely to jump into traffic than if you’re call right so the autonomous cars have to be able to read her facial expression so they don’t kill.

people and we do this automatically our cars have to do this so one it is somebody’s job to program in you know emotional reading capabilities into these AIS which i think is fascinating. and amazing it’s probably gonna have all kinds of audit edit consequences mm-hmm yeah I mean it the we’ve spent so much time on on AI and wow it’s it’s that.

fascinating because it’s so emergents right around the corner it seems like it’s there’s more and more coming out about it every day but something that I wanted to bring up as well that you. mentioned the book was genetics gene splicing you know you you talk about sort of editing you know your your children kids and and sort of it how do.

you you know how do you see this how do you view this as far as the future and what’s coming technologically as far as picking what we want as the traits of. our offspring so I don’t know I don’t I don’t go you know I look at a couple different things in genetics in the book it’s not it’s not core to my thinking.

but what I always talk about this I think the fear all right the big fear is Gattaca right the big fear is that we’re gonna end up in some kind of Orwellian. super children world or something like that where everybody is the same and you know and I remember having this conversation years ago with a brilliant brilliant brilliant geneticist and.

synthetic biologist named Andrew Hessel and he was the head of bioinformatics at singularity University for a while and a good friend of mine and he pointed out. he’s like look there is no we’re not heading into a Gattaca world because our people are endlessly unique and endlessly creative and if we do start designing our babies everybody’s kind of. what their baby is to be unique just like everyone’s an unique name for their kids these days and blah blah blah and I thought that wasn’t interesting I?

thought the idea of our children becoming sort of creative projects in that way you know we would design children and the way we would design houses or something like that. was a really fascinating wild idea to me so that was one of the things that kind of put into the book but I always say that like you know the stuff that’s?

coming that’s really interesting to me are like human animal hybrids and things like that and I and I thing at the point I make in the book is that I you know I. think that hybridization because you’ve already got projects right now underway to try to develop cat’s eyes for humans um and you know ornamental and then they’re you know there’s other stuff.

like that already underway so we’re gonna start seeing that and I see that as kind of the next version of punk rock it seems like every generation wants to. out repeal the previous generation so we started out with hippies who had long hair and funny clothes then we wanted the punks who had really strange hair. and they’re starting to pierce their bodies and tattoo their bodies so the modifications are becoming permanent and then we got it you know much heavier bought of body.

modification stuff and now you have implants and biohackers implanting technology into their bodies and that’s sort of the cutting edge the most punk rock thing going on and I you know I. think we’re gonna see human-animal hybrids it’s kind of the next version of punk rock or bail yet I think that’s the next 10 to 15 years as well hmm Wow you.

know I I’ve always loved your work Steve and I really like to rise of Superman this was definitely an interesting read and and it’s clear you have this ability. to look at these different emerging technologies and sort of combine them into a really amazing story there’s a question from the audience that I if I don’t ask people are gonna get mad at me.

Thomas wants to know ask Steven about cannabis and where it is best used in our modern culture what is what should stoners be doing in his opinion playing. videos question mark okay so a couple of things you should know about about cannabis that it’s really important cannabis produces state-dependent learning which is to say like you’ve. heard about state-dependent learning sure you know if you know if you study for the SATs in purple sweats you should take purple sweats right that’s state-dependent learning on a certain.

level but a deeper version of it is cannabis meaning people especially with psychedelics and mind-altering substances they think it’s automatic oh I take this pill and it’s gonna do this. thing and the truth of the matter is that most people when they when they smoke pot they sort of want to sit on a couch and eat Cheetos and laugh with.

their friends and watch movies or whatever right because that’s what they did in high school so that’s what they trained their brains to do with the substance but you can just as easily. retrain your brain to use cannabis for creativity for you know for work for any of those things it just takes trading and practice and I and I say this is a guy who was never.

really a cannabis user until I got live disease and spent three years in bed with Lyme disease and literally when I. was coming back from Lion disease my biggest problem was I couldn’t focus I couldn’t write and I couldn’t make any money right because I literally I couldn’t keep my head together and Rick? Doblin who runs maps multidisciplinary Association precise and known Rick for forever sure and we hadn’t talked for a little while at that point and I got on.

the phone with him he found out I had Lyme he’s like well they’re using medical marijuana and I was like well no I mammy crazy like my problem is I can’t focus. why would I whatever what he use marijuana he started laughing it’s like the Stephen you’re doing it wrong hmm? what are you talking about and he so he literally designed a protocol and taught me starting with very micro like half hit a pot for 45 minutes kinda and train?

yourself up and it took a while you know what I mean for like the first two weeks. what I was writing was freaking gobbly gook and I was like this is never gonna work I mean I you know I feel better than I was but this is never gonna work? and then like two or two to half weeks in my brain went oh my god this is how you do this stoned okay I got it and suddenly my workday what from a half.

hour 45 minute focus sessions when I was really sick with Lyme – two hours four hours eight hours a night like I owe my career to this well so the idea that. like that to me cannabis is um is it is is about you know creativity and work it is you know I I don’t know if Thomas. was prompted by a there was an article that came out at Forbes yesterday about me we at the flow Research collective have teamed up with Ojai energetics which?

cannabis company really great fantastic science and some researchers at UCLA and we’re doing the first ever deep dive into the relationship between flow and cannabis there’s all kinds of anecdotal. evidence there’s a lot of overlap between the you know the with the endocannabinoid system and so we’re gonna have were on the front end of what’s probably gonna be I think we have.

three years of funding but it’s probably gonna be a five-year research project by the time we get to where we want to go but I you know I think this is I think. this is really cool and interesting work and it’s gonna teach us a lot about human consciousness I think Steve Annette man we’re over time I I really.

appreciate these conversations with a hat that we have together man and they flow by they I mean it’s just perfect and we we cover so much but I feel like. you know there’s so much that we could have covered more is there anything you know before we wrap this up is there anything that you think that we should. have touched on that we didn’t oh I’ve got to say nothing I’ve got no answer probably tell you dirty jokes no I asked a better final question okay well I mean.

I don’t know what to do with the open-ended question okay you know I’m I’m not a guy who likes to give advice or tell other people how to live or what. things mean or anything else so I don’t have words of wisdom that way I’m not good with an open-ended question I’m better focused got it got it so okay.

here’s a focus question where can people find your work where can people go and buy you can find whatever you want you. can find on Steven Kotler comm which is ste V&K OTL er dot-com and two things to know if you go to under the words to? have because I’m too freakin lazy to create a separate video tab you will find a video tab and under the video tab you’ll find you know 10-12 hours of.

videos about you know every little bit of the conversation that you and I have been having kind of expand it out and there’s also the rabbit so if I said something about exponential. technology that got you curious and you want to know more there’s an exponential technology rabbit-hole if i said something about flow or consciousness there’s a flower literally there’s a tab.

on my website that says the rabbit hole and there are just sections and here’s for articles I’ve written for videos and a little podcast or whatever is sort of. a fun way to go through the material so that’s all free and that’s all there on the website we’ll make sure that people get ahold of that it you know I want to.

respond to your question Stephen cuz I felt like you gave me a chance I don’t want to lose that you know I wanted to ask you the last thing I wanted to ask. you about relationships love and virtual reality because I mean it seems like it’s it seems like culture has changed so much with tinder swipe being left or.

right do you think that you know having an artificial intelligent girlfriend would be something of a solution for those people that are normally what do you think about that well I mean there’s. got to be something to like program mated let me back it up one I don’t I don’t want to go quite that far I just you know we’re talking one of the other.

migrations I write about in the book is the migration the virtual and I think there are three big drivers that are gonna drive us into the virtual and I. really do believe whether it’s through VR or help them by the way the holodeck Star Trek holodeck the most far-out few to like it’s being built Holograms are. real and they figured out how to build a holographic room projector and some of the keenest minds and Hollywood are currently building a holodeck and they think we’re gonna have the first one one.

by 2030 so look welcome to your future but that’s besides the point I I think haptics are getting really good and there’s a whole I mean since the 80s. there has been a literally a field called dill tonics which is exactly what you think it is right I know what you think it is okay surprise ed it’s better. it’s so you know sex haptics basically have been since the 80s and they’re getting really good porn as a big driver of Technology and we already know like avatars make.

things really interesting and when you start coupling avatars with haptics with a slew of consciousness altering drugs I don’t even think we’re getting to AI relationships right I thought like I. think VR I mean yes somebody somebody’s gonna build the perfect robot husband or robot girlf you know those things are going to happen over time of course but. I really think VR is going to shift that stuff more more than I think AI or robotics well and I could be totally wrong but that’s why thinking Steven I really.

appreciate your presence so much man guys the book is called last tango in cyberspace my guest Steven Kotler is the author you can find his work Steven. Kotler com that’s gonna do it for us for this week we will certainly be back next week if you’re not subscribed to us already if you’re listening to this on. youtube click the subscribe button click the bell button so you can be notified when we go live if you’re listening to this on the podcast version get to.

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