[Music]

the human experience is entering the

Chapel of sacred mirrors as we speak to

my guest Alison and Alex gray Alex

Alison it’s truly an honor

welcome to hxp a thank you so much so I

just adore your work and where do I

begin

yeah where did you begin when did you

first see it do you think oh it’s been

years I mean at least a decade I mean

I’ve been following it and I just I have

so many questions for both of you let’s

just let’s just dig right in Alex Alison

and either of you can answer this how do

you define creativity I think creativity

and Ken Wilber really said this first

but i intuited it all along creativity

is evolution in our hands

creativity is the basic pulse of the

universe that is living in us as us

creativity is the spark of life and the

spirit that animates the entire cosmos

and it is the what I believe is the

force in consciousness that keeps

renewing itself moment by moment and so

this tendency toward novelty and toward

developing complexity is the

evolutionary process and it is alive in

us and that is creativity but I think

that it’s do you define it as a

masculine male or female type thing it’s

it’s universal creative energy that

means it’s all of the above and none of

the above you know it’s it’s got the

polarity the divine polarity of

masculinity and femininity but the

the creative principle I’d say is beyond

that it’s both it’s non-dual you know

it’s the sense it’s the the the pillar

and the engine of the universe it’s the

it’s what is most often identified with

God the Creator

you know the initiator and the source so

creativity is both a source a supply and

an output you know it’s the it’s the

entire thing its consciousness itself is

the creative impulse and the creative

spirit you know I feel like that’s

what’s living in everything how would

you say would you say that your art or

art evolves consciousness because it

proposes the possibility of realizing

things we may not have and in that way

it enlarges our our context for holding

our own being you can engage the next

stage of your own possibility as a kind

of a carrot on a stick that can compel

you to become a better person that’s the

the trick of really great art is to

become a better person after viewing it

or after creating it you know the kind

of I think of it as a covenant between

the creator and the viewer is this it

creates this possibility where an

energetic spark can pass

you know the divine spark of the

creative spirit alive in great works of

art is like a direct soul transmission

that’s a loop from the from the highest

source I think that’s the most beautiful

representation of what art is that I’ve

ever heard so Alex I mean your it seems

like your work goes a lot into the

spiritual the psychoenergetic the

spiritual energetic system why why

choose to move into this direction well

that is the opportunity to really look

the next stage of our evolution which

would be toward comfort with our own

psychic abilities and with our own

intuition art is it lives in the

swimming pool of the intuition you know

it is that that’s its stuff that’s the

lifeblood you know so we want to open

our third eyes we want to get beyond the

rational we don’t want to go unconscious

and dig down into the swamp of art of

our sort of shadows we want to

acknowledge and and and shine a light on

them but not live in those areas we want

to point higher and by opening our third

eye we’re seeing the possibilities that

exist for us and that it opens us to the

world of visionary light there’s a realm

of luminosity that all clairvoyance talk

about and who are clairvoyance but the

next phase of human evolution you know

these are people who developed other

capacities their visionary physiology

which is withered in most of us

become activated it’s come online and

it’s not always because they’ve become

more spiritually developed but often

times you’ll find in the the training

for a spiritual development from

monkhood of a Buddhist or Christian or

certainly the Jewish and Hindu mystics

have known the same thing that you’ve

come closer to this one source by many

different paths and it the distinctions

begin to blur between the the the one

being you know that it is all one and

it’s luminous you know God enlightens us

so our light body is where the soul kind

of seems more active it seems like

that’s that’s where the psycho plasmic

vapor is pliable it’s plastic and

sculptural we use it it’s our

imagination it’s the body of our

imagination so this body of life is what

the Mystics identify more with that’s

more close to our supreme identity

because it’s in the realm between the

transcendental and the manifest material

it’s that visionary landscape you know

that is our astral body our theory body

our acupuncture meridians and points and

the chakras and Aras and all the various

kinds of lines that move through as the

pulse of life itself you can just

imagine a toroidal field around the body

coming out of our heart you know and

coming out the top of our head and now

to our ass and it just kind of goes

around just like a invisible apple you

know it’s kind of pulses all around us

all the time you know

our hearts send off a shockwave out into

a subtle white out beyond our physical

body eight feet out around us so you

could imagine an 8-foot globe

surrounding your body at all times

that’s what the subtle pulse is sending

off is there is there something that you

would say inspires you the most

Allison and here she says no no no I

would say the same

so you inspire each other no that is my

greatest inspiration and that I probably

was his first student mr. penny I’ve

been a student of Alex for all these

years and I love hearing him talk he’s

such a genius

and thinks very differently than I do in

many ways I mean no but we’ve been

together for over 40 years

it’s Shearer in his studio we went in

art school and we fell in love over LSD

and and the spiritual side of that I

think that was really what connected us

was that we both had had a kind of a god

opening a god awakening God contact

through our sacramental soldiers and

Alex’s first soldier was in my apartment

on my couch so and we got a loft you

know to do our art in together we were

in the same gallery for years and now we

then until we had our own gallery then

we had two galleries in the city we had

Kazem the chapel sacred mirrors gallery

which was really mostly Alex’s most

beloved works and a few of mine thrown

in and then there was the gallery of the

visionary tribe you know that the great

visionary artists that are working today

and some who have passed on but we

showed some wonderful work in a rotating

shows Bridal exhibitions and

so right now we’re you know I project

now is an Theon which is to build the

sanctuary of visionary on that was a

vision that Alex and I had in 1985 on

our first MDMA experience was that we

should build this temple and so ever

since then all all our things like that

have that in mind

I mean sometimes we make art too as

commissions and to sell to people but

all proceeds go toward building this

visionary art sanctuary and now of

course we have a place for it closer

than we’ve ever been we’re here in the

Hudson Valley where we love it and it’s

gorgeous we’re like 1500 feet from

watson river

it’s amazing tidal river and we have

this great and it’s got great train

access and we’ve got this great place

that we’re building and right now we

have a Kickstarter ongoing which I’m so

glad you invited us to do a new show to

just tell people to go to build and

beyond calm it’s an easy easy access to

our Kickstarter page which is blowing up

my friend Xavier and I’m so guess who

gave us a great big tweet today Sean

Lennon and he’s you know biggest donor

he’s huge he’s loving us I wish I want

to meet Sean Lennon anyway but he gave

us a tweet today that he loves our

projects so check out build and

beyond.com

that’s really important to us that that

we finish building this exhibition you

see this is going to help us to build so

that everybody can come and the work is

on view instead of in storage

Alex’s beautiful sacred mirrors and all

those amazing works of art and the

originals by many visionary artists the

greatest originals by the greatest

visionary artists working today and have

passed will be shown in the first

gallery you walk into the Magi gallery

the mystic artists guild international

the mystic artists that the people who

bring the gifts you know they bring the

gifts to the to

to the God contact you know and that’s a

lot of people who come here to cause

them for many programs and we’ve got a

wedding this weekend we are having

Mother’s Day we always have things going

on here but anyway and you can find it

at Kazem stands for chapels sacred years

so people come here it should be

uplifted you know to be inspired by with

the art of Alex gray as a context

it just happens to draw people I mean I

really want you to tell us Xavier I’m

really serious about this do you

remember the first time you ever saw the

work of art of Alex trade you out do you

remember where it was we showed it to

you I mean it had to be in the late late

90s and I think it was unlike anything

I’ve ever seen it remains that and it’s

influenced so much of my life and just

looking at it it and it really it really

seems to capture the essence of not only

in the space but the spiritual space the

space that exists between us that we

don’t usually see well I wondered if it

was your friend do you think or do you

think it was your parents or did you

just see it sitting on a coffee table

was it a poster in somebody’s room or

you just really have no recollection of

that I honestly don’t have any records

recollection of that so interesting

because I asked a lot of people that

question it and and I often find that

the people remember where they saw it

and it was somehow a bridge it was

somehow a connector like it connected

them with something familiar something

that they felt and if somebody was

really turned off to it that said

something about them and if somebody was

really turned on to it that said

something else about them and so I feel

like that’s what Alex’s work provides

and why it’s an attractor and so in in

that we know that people really want to

see the work most people always haven’t

and asked to see it so

we thought why don’t we just offer it to

the public instead of keeping it for

them you know in private collectors

homes and things then there’s many of

those too I mean there are many of Alex

pace works things out disseminating and

seizing the world

yay so that you know people can we can

create a temple so that we can get all

back here and build a Theon so Alison

since I have your attention here I mean

you have said that your art has been

based on three root symbol systems chaos

order and secret writing all right what

what are these symbol systems and how do

they relate to your creative process

well when I was uh you know I started

tripping on it on LSD when I was 17 so

but then by the time I was uh 20 I read

ROM dasa’s be here now and I was you

know when I was tripping before that I

was going to parties and going on

bicycle trips and going walking up the

Rocky Mountains things like that and

having wonderful times apart isn’t

probably really spiritually developing

myself and growing but by the time I got

to rhom dasas book be here now he talks

about going into a dark room and lie

down peacefully with maybe some

spiritual or ambient music and going

deep inside with that experience and so

that was the first time I did that it

was before I met Alex and I saw the

secret writing and I saw the secret

writing all over the walls and all

washing over my body and over the body

of my two friends I was doing this way

and I always remembered that it was

unpronounceable and enigmatic but I knew

the meaning I had this intuitive sense

of the meaning being creative

manifestation this is the way we this is

where artists communicate they

communicate through symbols there are

symbol makers and as extension musicians

are giving a feeling or are resonating

with it with through a language that

is unpronounceable it is inexplicable we

try to put it in words maybe we write

poetry about it but it’s but it’s

inexplicable there’s something connected

about the creative process so anyway

that was the first secret writing and in

subsequent journeys I heard that all

things were chaos order and secret

writing and chaos is order plus entropy

it is the world of the material it is

the broken world where all things are

made of different things you know we’re

all made of atoms but we’re all

different there’s all these differences

between us between hardwood and my skin

and anyway and then there’s a and that’s

chaos it’s all falling apart in this

beautiful spectral way so the order is

that is a these fountains and drains the

suck holes and blow holes of the bliss

realm if we if you have ever done a

sacrament or had a mystical experience

you might have seen vistas of these

roiling unites you know universal mind

lattices as Alex paints them you know

those kinds of roiling and

interconnected light so that is my

symbol for that which is inexplicable

and that is and I call it order and

that’s my man Dalek image and sometimes

small fields of mandalas and the secret

writing is the creative manifestation we

have inner thoughts you know from the

divine I believe that they come in

through the divine and they manifest as

things out in the chaos world out in the

material world through symbols all of

them through the window of my secret

language the my mouth noises that I’m

making right now to you you can

translate them that you understand

because we understand the same symbols

if I was speaking Chinese what I was

saying would not come through as meaning

for you so this is these are all symbols

and we manifest our creativity and

communicate through symbols so that’s I

felt that the work that the

that worldview was so profoundly

download for me that I did not need to

look further than that for my content

and I’ve done work around castle or

secret writing since I met Alex 1975

when my work changed dramatically

I mean radically and how would you how

would you say that you and Alex kind of

vibe together when it comes to your

creative space you say something about

have you thought oh I think we’re it’s

so rare that we’re outside of each

other’s creative energy field actually

the in in a lot of ways whatever each

one of us is going through internally

it’s pretty often out there in our

creative plasma field you know and we

have to so we’re we’re both always

conscious of a purse of our own personal

transformation day-to-day in our

communication with each other and

learning how to become better people you

know in relation to each other I think

that’s the profound gift of relationship

and a long-term relationship is that

you’re allowed to know someone for

decades

it’s a privilege you know to maintain a

friendship and it’s also I think it

sometimes more challenging than other

times but then sometimes it’s like

you’re on a toboggan you know that is

such a thrill ride you know to be I feel

like that guy at the end of that philip

k dick you know where the things we’ve

seen together you know on other planets

like in Burning Man and

my areas gonna be a burning man this

year too so anybody who wants to come to

Burning Man and be with the cause of

camp it’s also gonna be the maps camp

yeah and it’s also going to be the

broader foam baby listen I wanted to say

something about our journey together

Alex and I we chose this path

consciously and not everybody would

choose such a path and people have

wonderful relationships in very

different ways like you know like

commuter relationships that sometimes

work perfectly for people so we’re all

about whatever works for each individual

I wanted to just tell your listeners

though that you know a young couple went

to the Buddha and they said we love each

other so much and we don’t like to even

be a part and and like we’re so scared

and worried about what’s gonna happen

one day one of us is going to die and

then the other one’s going to be left

and it concerns us and the Buddha said

to them if you walk the path in the same

way it’s a possibility then you could

come back in the next lifetime as one

person and if you came back in the next

lifetime as one person I was thinking

and Alex was thinking you know and you

loved each other as much as you know we

loved each other but both hemispheres

both hard drives were in the same body

you would love yourself like a Buddha

you would like be a burst Buddha you

would like love yourself entirely like

Buddha and Christ it and you could come

back as a Buddha so Alex and I have set

that intention that he’s look you know

the whole thing about the better half

it’s just it just true

that’s all Alex I love it

what I have to learn and I have what he

has to learn and so being together is a

not always easy but it is easy it’s so

delicious is what it really is and

you’re even going through stuff is

delicious because we get better we just

get better that’s all so yeah my friend

tell us more what do you want to know

about what I know what you want to know

that’s

no no it’s the other way around us I’m

here every day

okay so so Alex I’ve been everyone I’ve

talked to has asked me to ask you about

this if I don’t ask you about this I

don’t know what’s gonna happen to me

your your work has graced the album

covers of so many bands but especially

tool and 10,000 days album how did that

collaboration come about why do you

think that image resonates with so many

people well it’s really interesting I

think that the origins of it being on

the album were all the way back in

probably 2002 when Adam and I were

working on the parabola ending and since

I was working on that video with them

and having a lot of fun getting my first

opportunity to do storyboards and

animation and work with really talented

computer graphic artists and stuff they

gave me that opportunity early on Adam

did and so the at that time I was just

beginning the drawings the first

drawings for the painting that became

net of being and it was based on a

ayahuasca experience that I had had that

year and the lateralis had just come out

the previous year so we were still in a

kind of glowy state from that and it was

that I think big boost because look my

work is not what you’d call mainstream

in the contemporary art sense and so the

alternatives for artists who find

themselves in such a space or you know I

mean I was kind of going it on my own

and doing the

we published books you know in 1990

sacred mares came out and then other

philosophical reflections the mission of

art and then transfigurations and so

then we started working with two or more

and so then and Adam gave me the

opportunity to do stage sets and you

know just propose ideas and the ones

that he liked you know we he went with

so I showed him those early drawings

about the net of being and we both

looked at each other and thought because

we were doing the computer animation

someday we’ve got to animate this

someday we’ve got to make that space

come to life mm-hmm so it but it was

years that I’ve been painting on the

thing and so in I don’t know what was it

2006 he got ahold of me and it was we

have this concept that is these 3d

glasses that go with it’s like the

old-time kind of 3d photography and it

was something that Adam had been into

for many years like a decade or more

he’d been taking 3d photographs and so

he had this idea that he could make it

into a CD and it would be a way that you

can’t just download that they made an

object that people wanted to own and it

was ingenious really it won a Grammy

just as a package idea and and the art

was part of it too because we had a lot

of different you know like ideas he was

saying well what do you think we could

do with this thing this 3d thing so I

had a whole bunch of propositions and

then said I just showed him a picture of

what I was working on and it was the net

of being I’m forgotten I had shown him

that and he said that’s it that’s it and

so that put it on the album cover and

immediately I saw oh my god we could put

the glasses over the hand of the thing

and it had just be like it was made for

it and so

it just became the cover immediately and

it wasn’t even done it was just like

okay you know and but reduce like like

seven inches or something you can’t

really tell this and but then it got

into posters and all kinds of stuff so

it became one of the most famous

unfinished meanings of all but it will

be very much featured an NP on it’ll be

like right behind the stage it’s going

to be basically the backdrop for the

stage but an Theon is what we’re working

on now but I want to just say Alex

hasn’t done a lot of album covers

because Alex and I both I think together

are very discerning about whose work

uses you know your art and over the

years it really hasn’t been that many

and probably less now but but to have

tool involved I mean has been an

incredible experience and it’s helped to

bring Alex’s work to millions of people

and we’re very very grateful and at NC

on we’re having a tool shrine we have so

many the tool army wanted a shrine for

tools so we’re like putting one in our

reliquary room we have a reliquary room

with these psychedelic heroes and the

tool shrine and altars and things like

that so it’ll be really cool you know

we’d hope to open at like 2017 so we

have a little ways to go but we’re

giving tours at every after every Archer

we still take people into the

construction zone and show them what

everything’s gonna be we’re very excited

I think I’m gonna have to make a trip up

there I’m in Florida Central Florida

Central Florida Gainesville as we go to

Gainesville at the University of Florida

that’s you do I’m actually into quite a

bit really yes we should there they have

the art and healing center you know they

they’re medical school is one of the

earliest art therapies place mache

the Shands Hospital they are all about

art therapy and we’ve been down there

doing with our daughter when she was

young doing performances that were

commissioned by the Shands you know by

that art yelling yeah shanz is huge and

games Rockwood lame that’s her name Mary

Rockford Lane she’s she I mean if it

weren’t for these people you wouldn’t

even know about our therapy it’s it’s

amazing Hospital Gainesville

yeah and then you’ve got Mickey singer

down there he’s just like teach the a

lot in Alachua Florida uh-huh yeah I’ve

met Mickey gone to his temple the

universe and so we need to enact

obviously I need to meet you guys so

okay getting back to getting back to

some of the questions I have for this

interview Alex your work seems to have

an interest in both the scientific and

artistic side of life and your earlier

work seemed to focus more on death and

transcendence and why do you think your

early work did that it’s probably the

protracted ego death you know like the

long squeal of the pig as it dies

tendency to be depressed so I’ll just

tell you this when he first met Indiana

had a side he had made called suicide

theater and I was really worried about

what he might do to himself but he has

transcended that and has worked on that

I think it’s but it is a tendency of

yours well you know I was wondering

because that whole story with the Buddha

you know I guess what do you do with the

shadow right what are we saying about

spiritual leaders that they have no

shadow

isn’t that like unrealistic isn’t that

just completely bogus and isn’t that

what they always do is that they make

the the spiritual leader somehow in

humans somehow without a shadow

which is whatever which is what the

shadow wants you to think that II only

you have you know only you have that

anchor of depression or or psychosis or

whatever is your you know anchor oh and

so but that’s your ego that’s your

shadow and I I think that what it is is

your great teacher you know you have to

look at it as a kind of a both a teacher

but also it’s not the witness it’s not

the truly who you are it’s kind of the

reflections in the mirror and not the

mirror itself so the the sky is watching

a cloud instead of the you know the the

frantic cloud worrying because it’s

dissolving you know I think that the to

identify more with the context of cosmic

being and of being beyond time is what

spirit and the higher sacred arts have

always pointed toward so they plot they

point toward the transcendence and I

think that the I was going through the

death part probably always will part of

me you know and I I wear black all the

time you know so you could say I’m in

mourning over the web of life and all of

the the death inadvertent that’s gone to

nature and all the the kind of

unrighteous wars that the humans wage so

it’s you could also say it’s the source

of all creative light is in the

transcendent no thingness so as as a as

a creative entry point the black seems

to work but it’s you could also say it’s

the shadow that you acknowledge exists

but it doesn’t mean that your mind has

the only conditioned by that knowledge

it should be chastened by it should be

enlivened by it because it’s the

contrast to that you know it’s the we

are alive now that unites us you know

that’s a beautiful and and it’s only so

treasured because it’s so impertinent

and so because of that treasured

preciousness of each moment you know

that that music and art can excel or the

look of a beloved you know and the

compassion and a stranger’s eyes a smile

all of those things you know the sunset

these these things are the things that

God gives us as these little treasures

and little gems each day that we life’s

worth it you know life’s beautiful

life’s an affirmation and so our lives

and consciousness together are the we’re

I think real creativity and

transformation lives I mean is that why

you spent so much time at Harvard

Medical School studying cadavers well I

think that I had to understand the

substructure of consciousness which is

the vehicle the black box of the body

and because the body decays and is is

made up of composite things you know and

and deconstruct it’s it’s a kind of

mechanics but I don’t believe that

that’s what our self is limited to where

do you see the consciousness of the

planet today in society today and where

do you believe it’s going I think that

we’re at this point of the need for

breakthrough and the tremendous

frustration of massive numbers of people

and suffering

of massive numbers of people and so that

the cry of both the wife web and the

human web is a almost overwhelming pain

that most people take antidepressants

not to feel and so the the numbing of

our consciousness is the other aspect

that is kind of the collective shadow so

I feel like there are many spirits and

forces clashing as we evolve our

consciousness and part of our tribe and

especially the the 20-somethings and

even before the teens they get it

immediately there isn’t any tolerance of

it’s why bernie is so favored

by the young people there they’re

intolerant of and they want to

hear ideals articulated vision

articulated people who still are alive

to the possibility of vision that that

can help us survive the tight spots to

come because we have to plan for

overarching survival we have to get off

our addiction to oil we have to find the

new energy source and start to wind down

the outworn nuclear facilities and we

have to get independent kind of solar

and the solar technologies out as soon

as possible would you say that people

are hungry for mystical experiences I

think that it’s in all of our souls and

at this point because of our immersion

in the materialism that we yearn for

like I did that one day when I dared

God to show me a sign before I succumb

to my own you know sort of

self-destruction and I it was kind of a

dare in the same way I think that the

soul of every person that still alive to

the possibility of love they yearn for a

source of love that is infinite and is

is a source that unites all life and the

scientists are not saying it doesn’t

exist they point to the unity of things

they point to a source point and to a

United field so I think that the

intuition of the mystic and the book and

the lover is close to the pulse of life

and that that affirmation of the beauty

of life in the truth of life and

goodness of life is what art is most

righteously about and that’s how it

serves the the spirit is this why you

would say that your art is so immersive

so visceral that perhaps you’re relying

this sort of significance to the divine

and transmitting it into the people who

see it your other work is both cerebral

and ethereal it’s from another world it

comes from the inner experience and I

think that when Alex’s earliest studies

were about the body it’s true and he was

a medical illustrator for a gig solid 12

years where he supported Zenon and I as

I was not I was only working with Alex

on his work you know and so basically

was one income of medical illustration

that was doing it and then the paintings

that we were selling some of them we had

shows and things but still her good 12

15 years ago it’s studied the body and

was made

his life but you know I mean more and

more his work is more about the the

ephemeral I mean I’m looking around the

gallery in the studio right now and I

don’t see any works of art in this room

that have anatomy and anymore there’s

one and the other one the Xena vision

has Anatomy and I think it’s it’s it’s

something that you know how to to use

and and taught yourself like that like a

fabulous part of your house you know

like you know all the things that you

know how to do you know how to represent

the body accurately and if people are

gonna use the body and their art they

can use the figure in their art I think

you use the face and their art they need

to you know we have a confident approach

to that not everybody has to do it

through Anatomy not everybody has to

understand you know the anatomy to do it

but the conferring approach has to be

evident yeah well we’ve become a lot

more comfortable in seeing the sort of

underlayment of the physical body what’s

under the skin you know because of the

bodies exhibition and things like this

and so it’s more part of and even the

shows that are on television that show

us you know cadavers now we’re seeing

this and now we’re seeing surgery and

now we’re seeing more familiarity with

the body so over the years when I first

was presenting these life-sized sort of

dissections of figures before bodies and

before all those things you know there

was practically a physical discomfort

with people and seeing these large

flayed kind of figures which I think it

at this point is is not so much you know

because oh we know it’s a painting and

that’s a painting of a decent painting

of a you know our head

commercials have spinning you know

translucent people so it’s you know and

and and that just wasn’t the way it was

but but I think it it brought it out

into the open and people seeing that I

mean the ISIS is pattern light power you

know it’s it’s they can become more

removes from it as art well I think that

what what the end atomizing of the

figure does is universalize the figure

and rather than focus on what race we

are we’re saying we’re all humans we all

have bodies we all have skeletons you

know it’s why you see x-ray art all over

the world in shamanic art you see a kind

of silhouette and then inside bone like

tracings from Australia to you know the

art of the Anasazi mm-hm so this kind of

skeletor’s ation you’ll see it in

huichol our to the shamanic art is

seeing this kind of x-ray world and

that’s kind of a level of the world of

light that the visionary artists I think

are trying to bring back you know not

just me and not just house and I think

Allison’s work is about right she talks

about her languages first seeing it as

light you know it was light figures you

know but it’s all there and these in

these letters and it’s intelligent you

know that it’s just communicating

something mystery and then but it’s come

from a world of light and they the the

grids of light are you know basically

prismatic representations of what could

be white light fields of

interconnectedness you still have that

right right field because each drawing

things she doesn’t draw she doesn’t

paint every part of her paintings she

leaves a little mote of white so there’s

always a white right field connecting

everything and so there’s to that to the

world of chaos now what are we but light

itself shattered and

various ways you know we’re coming

together we’re falling apart from order

chaos chaos to order and all because

what we say you know be when we say that

we’re getting better we’re getting

better when we say things are getting

worse

its tendency just to make things worse

and to make it come true so you you you

know not that that works all the time

you know not yeah oh gee that’s around

you so that you want it you want to you

know if you want people firmly spire

right if then you have to constantly be

a farming and going forward and so but

anyway that’s just you know advice from

the old people I mean Alex would there

would you say that there was a point in

your life that was the most influential

to your work any period of of life for

you that maybe define the rest you know

I think that the 24 hours really that I

took LSD for the first time and

basically decided that there was a God

and life was worth living I decided to

live that was my rebirth in life I think

that was kind of like your second chance

if you get a if God hears your prayers

and appears to you within 24 hours and

then divine love in the flesh shows up

right there my partner for the next 40

years if you can’t see the sign if you

can’t read the tea leaves I think you’re

pretty dense you know well but let’s say

this let’s say this I think that Alex

you know was uh it gave Alex a content

for his work it gave him what his work

could be about the most important thing

like both of us felt that this was the

most important thing you know next to

fighting each other the the incident and

the what the vision was and seeing it

was the most important and

life changing vision and altered altered

our way of thinking about the world and

God and and everything’s everything

inner and outer so that it gave Alex a

direction and content for his work and

it gave it meaning but I have to say

alex was always a great artist even

before he met me he was famous in high

school he had a show at Columbus Ohio

City Hall when he was in high school a

solo show so this guy made any got a

full scholarship start school so he he

was recognized as an artist because he

is uncompromising and he is on you know

he’s just unstoppable and basically

uncompromising you know works of art

must be you know what he wants them to

be you know what I mean it’s it’s like

he’s been known to wipe out entire areas

after working on them for long periods

of time so he’s always you know always

uncompromising and and sometimes this

work takes a little bit longer because

of that but it’s very very respected

because it’s he always learns about

everything it was work to you know I

mean like everything that’s in there

every symbol it’s in there you’ve

probably read a book about he has a mode

of references around him at all times

so anyway I’m a big big fan you can tell

did you guys get a chance to meet Albert

Hoffman did he come – gasps oh and

numerous occasions we were able to our

daughter had dinner with them when she

was 9 years old and then that was an

Amsterdam and then we met him again a

couple of times but once on his

hundredth birthday yes Alex did his

portrait an important tortured a very

important piece that you could see in an

Theon when we opened it’s called

st. Albert and the LSD revelation

revolution and Albert was a hundred

years old that day 11111 we know it was

at the 11 111 a1 I don’t remember but in

any case he was 100 and he signed the

back of the painting it was on a board

so it was he could sign the back of it

and he made a picture of the molecule on

the back of it so I was no six oh six oh

six that’s when we went to Basel

Switzerland for the world psychedelic

form there’s a lot of interest in in in

this mysterious substance that we call a

sacrament and there are scientists and

sociologists and psychologists and

psychiatrists that are studying it and

now testing it for all kinds of

interesting cures people are finding

incredible success with cluster

headaches related to LSD and all kinds

of other stuff you know they’re doing

the tests of big big universities like

Johns Hopkins and Harvard and Yale and

UCLA and some other one so they’re there

they’re getting like real legit emit

about it all to find out what act what

is the potential of this very strange

and powerful substance that in a minute

and a millionth of a gram has people

feeling that they have had the

experience that is greater and more as

as important of an experience as as the

most experiences important experiences

of their life including very children

and things like that so they put it up

there with those sorts of importance and

why is that and what how can that help

us help us and so you know it can help

us by I hurt by bike by harming us right

we don’t want harm you want harm

reduction so how can we make it so that

it helps us and a lot so a lot of

research for the know about that maps is

the multidisciplinary Association for

psychedelic studies and they’re the guys

that we’re gonna be at Burning Man with

and they have a big speaker series and

in zendo we’re gonna be there this

subverting man did you ever go to

Burning Man my friends have not been to

Burning Man yet it’s on the lists on the

bucket list maybe you should come and

were there I will make a point to

eventually see you guys so we are

running out of time here I I want to ask

each of you kind of if you have one

thing that you could tell a budding

artist someone who’s getting into

drawing painting who admires your work

what would that be well draw everyday

and devote time to this you know don’t

expect a lot of rewards all at once but

really find out why you’re doing it and

do it for your own Souls reasons and if

every if anything becomes successful so

much the better you know and if you find

yourself in the realms of success you

know then you know learn to appreciate

that and Van Gogh has had a I’ve tried

to try to keep a dialogue with your your

family of artists you know like learn

who your tribe is and they may be living

or dead you know and hopefully they’re

both you know you’re part of a wave so

get in touch with the wave and get in

touch with the people who are doing work

that is similar to yours wedding artist

should check out how they can study with

Alex tonight and it’s all at Casa morg

we teach we have two classes coming up

in July and there’s lots of ways to

interact we have wonderful artists that

come here man to say just taught a

workshop here and has another one coming

up so I would just like to say one other

thing before we close that is to

everybody in this family everybody

that’s out there listening into your

savior may any merit generated by our

gather and be dedicated to the benefit

and liberation of all beings yeah I love

it

you guys are truly amazing Alison tell

us a little bit more about NT on this

project that is coming

where people can find the Kickstarter

all

nc on.com we created a special page so

that you can just go to build anything

an icon takes you right to our

Kickstarter page we are blowing right up

my friends please get joined right on

we’ve got some fantastic tool brand new

and unique exclusive rewards and and and

then when you come here you can say I

helped build this temple spot and you

can tell your children that you helped

build this temple it’s gonna be around

for a thousand years unless somebody you

know knocks it down and stand there for

a thousand years as it’s gonna be

beautiful we’re gonna get us we’re gonna

get all the way there we’re gonna get

all the sculptures on there it’s gonna

cost us though and it’s and you know

building a temple is the work of a

community so that’s why we’re doing that

because this is the visionary art tribe

and anybody who loves the vision and the

visionary art can come around and help

us even at the lowest level your

contribution really helps our campaign

because it’s like blows up more and more

people are participating and we have

some low medium and high and you know

rewards we got original art and there

people are looking for art by Alex gray

they’re you know we’re like putting it

up there so and I got some pieces and so

the visionary our tribe they’ve they’ve

been coming out they were they’re

donating their art their original art

and there’s G clays and their limited

editions they’re you know you’ll see

them there’s a whole scroll and then we

just sold a I can say this cuz it’s a

campaign we just sold and I think it was

a nineteen thousand dollar banjo no

thirteen thirteen thousand dollar banjo

functional glass baby what’s the fun

back and functional and banjo you if you

don’t know he is the biggest flash

artist functional glass artist one of

those really hot and he put his piece up

there for our Kickstarter and it just

sold today really yes indeed dude so

play play play play full out we love to

have

be part of the campaign that’s a great

meeting smaller awards and and that come

to Qasim yeah we got Mother’s Day if

you’re in the area we’ve got you know

Alex and I teaching the visionary art

intensive for the 27th summer come and

be in our class if you’re an artist Lee

you want to study with this man and his

muse come to the Omega visionary art

intensive it’s it’s a five-day

experience of fun and love with lots and

lots of visionary artists that’s where

we want you to be this July with us

so exactly that’s every well what did it

Alex is one more thing Friday Friday

we’re gonna be the alchemists kitchen if

anybody hears this before Friday Friday

night we’re gonna pounce and I are doing

our blended talk the inevitable

consequence of love and we’re talking

about it at the alchemists kitchen in

New York City it’s a great new space in

New York City and you gotta find it and

you gotta come and see us

what date is that on is that this

kitchen Savior is that the Friday the

sixth tomorrow okay tomorrow there might

be a little bit early cool I just I

really want to thank you both for your

the work all the work that you’ve done

for being here your energy is amazing

this is the most fun that I’ve had with

an episode in a long time and I just I

bow to you know kind of your legacy it

it’s truly your vibe the energy it’s

beautiful thank you guys both so much

for being here thank you so much