Episode 118 – Tom Campbell – General Relativity, Consciousness, Metaphysics

dances permeating the nature of reality running here over your paradigms and getting objective with my guest tonight nasa physicist consciousness explorer and author of his book my big toe mr. tom campbell tom my good sir welcome to hxp well thank you save you’re glad to be here hopefully we can make some interesting conversation today yes I sure think we will I would just like to open the conversation by saying that you have the most amazing beard I have ever

seen it is the Einstein of beards and we can call it the Campbell beard if that’s okay with you now what makes my beard so unusual doesn’t it just look like any any old guy with a you know white hair and white beard yes but I like your beard okay so moving past pleasantries let’s let’s talk Tom about your work with mr. Monroe I find mr. Monroe quite fascinating and so I I know that you guys work together if you could just get into the birth of

hemi-sync and your work with Robert Monroe that I think that would be interesting okay my introduction I’m a physicist and and my introduction to an awareness of a larger reality than just a physical started with TM meditation and that was why it was in graduate school working on my PhD I found out that I could use a TM state to D you know to debug software much better and more accurately than I could go over you know printouts reams and reams of

printouts it was a it was an easy thing I could just bring up the printouts in my mind look at them and the ones that were faulty would turn red and I could just look at them and read them and i was familiar enough with my printouts i could go find that line and sure enough that’s where you know the keyhole you know this is back in the old days where you had punch cards and boxes and boxes of them it’s a very was very difficult

compared to today climate of debugging but anyway I could find errors there you know a misplaced semicolon was a comma or punch punch card hole was a little off-center or some kind of thing like that there was lots of things that created errors and it was important in those days because you didn’t get very many runs and the computers were pretty slow and a different world altogether so anyway that was my introduction and I got out

of graduate school took a job and before too long being in that first job my boss handed me a book of journeys out of the body but mom by Bob Monroe I had never heard of journeys out of the body or Bob Monroe but when your boss hands you a book and says read it you read it and I did and the boss says well what did you think and I said well if this is true then wow there’s a whole lot of reality there that I don’t know about and if

it’s false then who can tell you no how can we tell the difference between whether it’s true or not and then it turned out that Bob Monroe lived and worked just oh maybe 45 minutes away from where we all lived and worked and we had an appointment and a bunch of people from where I work who had also read the book maybe 10 15 people mostly scientists engineers that type we went all out to see Bob Monroe and see who was this guy who wrote this book and was he a

charlatan or was he for real and that was my first introduction to Bob Monroe and while I was there it turned out Bob had just built a laboratory for the study of consciousness because he’d had these out-of-body experiences happened to him and he wasn’t satisfied that it was just weird stuff that happened to him he wanted to understand it Bob Monroe was a businessman he was the the CEO and founder of a cable company at the time reasonably wealthy and I lived

on this very nice estate Ivan in the countryside with you know horses running alongside the white board fence and that sort of thing so he was he was willed to do and my my first thought and driving in to his estate was that he didn’t do it for the money because he you just don’t make that much money with that kind of a book if you’ve already got that much money it’s not worth the trouble so that wasn’t it so I worked with Bob Monroe

for the next ten years myself and Dennis met Eric he was a electronic engineer who worked with me and we went out to Bob’s to help understand this out-of-body experience to learn what Bob could teach us about experiencing the larger reality ourselves because if it’s not your experience it’s not your truth if if you just do it all intellectually about Bob’s experience then you’re very limited and never understanding it some things you need to experience to

understand and the larger consciousness system and this out-of-body Rio this is one of those things so we both had to had the idea well if this turns out just to be bogus then you know we’re out of there but well let’s go it’s gonna be sounds exciting sounds like fun so let’s see what happened well what happened is that before long bob had taught Dennis and I both to go out of body when you know on demand whenever we wanted to and

we did a lot of research and evidential things what could we effect what kind of information could we gather you know that’s sort of that’s like remote viewing if you will you go see things and and and describe what was there and then check it out we tried healing we tried you know telekinesis you name it and we tried it just to see what we could do with it and all the while we’re working in the lab building equipment to try to monitor their physiological

responses and and trying to come up with tools that would help drive these altered states of consciousness and and that sort of thing so that was my life then for the best part well I’d say five years it was intense and that means you know I was working in a 40-hour a week job which was more like a 50 or 55 hour a week job and I was spending 20 hours 15 to 20 hours a week with Bob Monroe either working in the lab doing experiments or you know being the

subject of experiments myself and and having you know Bob but teach me how to explore this new reality so that was it and and in that amount of time Dennis and I did find a way to enhance the experience or at least drive the altered states in which the spirit this experience about a body became more accessible to the average person and that was called binaural beats and binaural beats are our technology that you can find on the internet if your

google binaural beats you’ll find two or three sites that’ll let you make a binaural beat to suit yourself and what a binaural beat is that you put two independent frequencies one in each year so you need a headset and you need a stereo player and you put one tone one pure frequency in one year let’s just say a hundred Hertz and in one year then you put a hundred and four Hertz in the other ear now any of you know a little bit about physics now if you have two

pure frequencies like that and they get to mix like in air or in your nervous system that you’ll end up with a beat frequency that’s the difference between the two frequencies in this case the beat frequency would be about four Hertz so what happens is you get the one tone goes in let’s say you’re right here the other tone goes in your left ear and you get a four Hertz beat signal at the corpus callosum which is the basically the membrane that area between the two

hemispheres of the brain and it turns out that that beat signal then drives the EEG so if you put an EEG on a person you will find more and more of the energy in there EEG starts to fall under the four Hertz you know frequency range in that in that range so that’s that’s a theta state so we tried that on lots of people some knew what we were doing most were just naive and you know here listen to this and you know what happens and we

were we had the EEG on them and GSR and other sorts of monitoring equipment and then we talked to them about what their experience was like and so on and and we realized that this was really a pretty powerful tool that would help one get into what I guess we might call a good meditation state and by good I mean a very productive one one that one that’s useful for were then focusing one’s intent and healing or traveling or doing what else you wanted

to do so that was that was kind of how I got connected with Bob Monroe and how Dennis and I ended up discovering this binaural beats and actually Dennis was really the one that came up with it he had he was reading a scientific American article and the author of an article this was not back in 1972 and there was an article by I don’t remember the first name but the last name was Auster and he wrote about binaural beats and he gave a

little bit of it was a kind of a new thing and he was just writing this article to introduce the concept of the people and he indicated that it that there was a possibility that it might influence you know EEG output so Dennis saw that and said okay here’s something for us to try at the lab because we knew this for Hertz was a was a a signature that Bob Monroe got as he left his body he would get this vibration of four Hertz so that was one fact we had to work with

and we thought we would try to you know encourage that four Hertz beat and if your whole brain and nervous system was oscillating at four Hertz you know maybe that would be a way we didn’t know but we were in a cut and try experimental mode to see what happened so it worked pretty well Dennis and I played with it for another week or two by ourselves because Bob was out of town so we had to optimize it you know what’s the base frequency was it four Hertz or four and

a half or you know three point you know seven five or what and at what amplitude do you play it a lot of other variables that we we went through to try to optimize the effect the entraining brain waves and when Bob came back we played him the the towns and he was very impressed with it as well and began to add some of his own sounds to it which were mostly relaxation sounds you know like surf sounds that that kind of thing but but

the surf sounds actually weren’t real surf they also had like four Hertz white no white no it wails more like pink noise pink noise is white noise with the high the high end cutoff so it’s not quite so jarring it’s it’s a little softer sound so it was a pink noise modulated to four Hertz and and actually it had kind of a delta wave in there too so that’s what we had been using before we we found these binaural beats and afterwards we had that original sound

with the binaural beat laid you know into it that they were they were put together in the same track so that became hemi-sync and hemi-sync is a signature technology of Monroe laboratories Bob Monroe I got a patent on that and it has probably changed and modified many times between then and now so it’s not necessarily the same hemi-sync that you’d listen to if you you know bought a current tape from Monroe Institute but that was the beginning anyway of

hemi-sync yeah I definitely suggest anyone listening to the show right now to check out a Albert Robert Monroe’s work and his books and be hemi-sync if they can just because I personally used hemi-sync for about ten years just as I was beginning my meditation phase and it really helped quite a lot so getting the history of that is very intriguing so how did you move from working with mr.

Monroe to develop developing a theory of everything how does a person do that well being a physicist you know I’m a scientist kind of through and through and and as a physicist my my job is to understand reality that’s what physics is it’s you know how does the world work so that’s what physicists do and that’s where my mindset was so once I understood that reality was bigger than just as physical reality and then I understood after

being with Bob that I could explore that with some let’s say some regularity in other words I could I could produce altered states pretty precisely and go to the same states and do the same things in the same way and try to eliminate all the variables that I could and then change one variable and see what difference it made you know so I could do experiments in this space so I began very early if probably after a year or two at Bob Monroe’s early in the

process my job kind of in the group was theory you know to understand what went on how could you explain it what’s the connection between physical reality in this larger reality what is the larger reality yeah where does it come from what does it do why is it there how do we relate to it you know etc etc all the questions about trying to understand what is it and how does it work so I continued with that for the next roughly 35 years and from that was

starting in 1972 so in ninth in 2003 in February I published the books my big toe so it took me that long and that was pretty continuous there’s not much time that I was away from that you know doing other things that pretty much worked on it continuously for for that amount of time doing research experimenting experiencing that sort of thing and it was not until then that I actually thought I had an idea about how it worked so I wrote these books and the books

started out to be sort of an explanation of the larger reality and consciousness and that was more metaphysics and philosophy than physics although I knew that was the bigger picture and everything else had to derive from that but I really didn’t understand how that might happen I just kind of I knew that that was you know the way it had to go I call it a big toe a big theory of everything because it was the foundation consciousness is the fundamental thing

and everything Ellis’s derived thereof but then after the books were published I realized that the same logic that I used to describe consciousness and how consciousness worked and its parameters described how physics worked as well it’s the very same idea I didn’t know I don’t know why it took me so long to get that but it did I was probably a year or so after the publication and it’s like oh look this is why the double slit experiment works the way it does and

this is why sees a constant and this is why you know we have entanglement then all of these big mysteries in physics that you know where does mass come from where does charge come from all of these unknowns all of these hard problems just disappeared it was clear that there was a very nice logical derivation of all of them and it all came from the same two assumptions that really drove the theory of consciousness and and the larger

reality so it was all very neat and elegant and contained within just a few ideas explained all of that so that’s kind of how I ended up writing those books it was just my it was just the way I’m built I guess that I kept working on trying to understand it until I finally got somewhere just your your search for answers and looking for truth yeah pretty much and the thing that really helped is that being a scientist I’m kind of you know programmed if you will

to think logically to have a high level of proof you know requirement for proof if it you know it has to make sense from all angles you have to repeat it many times and I don’t you know I don’t go there if it isn’t I don’t go on that ground if it isn’t solid so that helped me having this attitude of go do the experiments you know see see where the limits are where do you run up against the wall in in this process so that was that was it

so because I was a scientist and because also I had spent you know 35 years studying consciousness I was able to put it together I don’t think I could have put it together if I had just either one of those mindsets or either one of those sets of experience it took both the physics experience and mindset and the experience and the larger consciousness system otherwise I wouldn’t have been able to pull it together so let’s let’s break it down

for our listeners I mean it so there there is we’re in a computer basically and what there someone has pressed an on button and it’s kind of running this program am I am i close yeah you’re close it’s not that we are in a computer depends on who you define we as because there’s we the body in this physical reality in this physical universe and then there’s we the consciousness and those two things are not the same thing so if we say we the consciousness then

we are we are not really in the computer as far as in the in the in the simulation it makes the physical reality we’re in the the larger computer if you will which is the larger consciousness system consciousness itself is an information field it’s an information system and that would make sense if you think of what is consciousness it’s information it’s basically information and communication that makes up consciousness your awareness of your

reality has to do with the data that you collect through your census if you’d had no no sight no no sound no smell no taste and no touch then what would you reality be like well your your reality would be you know basically you’d be floating in the and the void in a black dark void there would be no reality just just the fact that I am you you’d be aware that you exist and nothing else would be there so you can see that awareness consciousness

is information our reality is information and our thoughts are also information our you know our thoughts carry information that’s that’s what they do it’s a it’s a way of our language carries information are thinking carries information so an information system describes consciousness and then this consciousness this larger consciousness system creates a virtual reality called our physical universe for us to experience in and it has its own reasons

for doing that but that kind of maybe straightens out a little bit what you were saying so so then are we presumably virtual reality characters in this sort of virtual machine and then our consciousness is the information we would you even call it a sort of magnifying lens or just information now it’s a it’s a subset of the larger consciousness system our consciousness is a subset you know we’re a piece of that larger consciousness system and it

you know our consciousness of course is information processing memory you know all of all of that experience we have all of that stuff that defines of all of the choices we’ve made all of the experience we’ve had kind of define us as who we are and and our uniqueness but think of it in this with the same model I’ll say the world of warcraft’ and the world of warcraft say you you’re playing an elf or the sims would be the same sort of thing or you’re playing a

character but let’s say world of warcraft you have an elf now the elf is not conscious you are the elf consciousness if you don’t give that elf any direction if you don’t tell it what to do it just stands there and does nothing maybe it wobbles around a little bit but it just it has no you know it has no direction without you the player now you the player are its consciousness but there’s another point here to see and that is the elf reality does not

contain you the consciousness the elfs reality than the elves body and the ruleset that defines world of warcraft creates constraints on a data stream that is passed to you the so you’re sitting at your computer receive a data stream and you interpret that data stream as the World of Warcraft world but you cannot be inside the world of warcraft world you the consciousness must be in a separate reality frame outside of the virtual

reality in which you’re playing in other words the elf and world of warcraft will never find a building that has the server in it that’s creating the world of warcraft you say yeah the world of warcraft the server that creates the world of warcraft can’t be a part of the world of warcraft world it has to exist outside of that world it has to exist as fredkin said in other that’s just someplace else other than the world of warcraft world and why

is that because a simulation can’t create itself you can’t that’s like third grade logic right a simulation can’t create itself because before it created itself it didn’t exist to create itself you see that’s a pretty simple idea there is there an intelligence within this larger consciousness I mean is it yes its consciousness it’s you know we’re intelligent it’s intelligent intelligence basically comes from learning from your experience and this

is this larger consciousness system has a more vast experience than we do we’re just subsets of it and the subset never contains all the information of the superset so it’s a larger thing than we are altogether but yes it is intelligent it’s aware it’s conscious and it has a you know it has a a mission and that is to survive when you talk about information systems you have you know two different extreme states then you’re suspended somewhere between them and

that is if every bit and the information system is random then there is no information there is no awareness there is no conscious nothing there’s just random bits there’s no structure there’s no meaning there’s no content so content requires structure it requires order if you will it requires pattern and that is how physics defines the word called entropy high entropy means randomness you have high entropy you have a lot of randomness in

information system and you have low entropy if you have a lot of content or a lot of structure so entropy is a matter is a measure of disorder more disorder high entropy less less disorder or more order and you have low entropy so an information system and this is just standard you know information science and talking about now an information system then can can be described in terms of its entropy how evolved it is how much information it

has as opposed to randomness so the system is a is an aware evolving system it’s changing you know as as we do it we’re evolving it’s evolving and what it has to do to maintain itself is it always has to put forth effort in order to not dissolve into randomness and that’s something that takes effort because if you don’t do anything if you just sit and there’s no maintenance there’s no effort then randomness happens and you know entropy happens and

you start to disintegrate you start to come apart dissolve your order begins to go away so constant effort is needed and what this system is doing it’s evolving and it’s evolving toward more functional information and lower states of entropy and it’s it has to it has to keep working now we’re pieces of it so that’s what we’re doing – that’s the overall dynamic here is that the whole system is trying to lower its entropy or maintain

its entropy and lower its entropy it it does that by its choices if it makes good choices you know it has choices we’re talking about an information system that’s sharing information and we’re pieces of it so it’s this interaction between subsets of itself and how it interacts requires choices choices what to do and what to do with the information you get and what to do about what to send and and so on if those choices are choices that help

build and and produce and create more structure more information then that’s on the path to evolution and if those choices create more randomness and you know tear things apart then that choice is you know on the way toward e evolution for the system and we are in this physical reality as pieces of the system put here or I should say plain here in order to have a reality frame with enough rules that we get good feedback on the value of our choices

what are our choices doing you know what kind of choices are they if there’s no rules then there’s no way to assess what it is you’re doing so we need we need rules and once we have rules those rules define a virtual reality I’m kind of skipping around in the in the theory here a little bit just try to get people up to up to speed and there’s lots of things I’ve left out okay but anyway with that’s kind of you know it’s kind of where we’re going so yes we’re in a

virtual reality yes we’re consciousness consciousness can’t be in the same reality as the virtual reality that it’s plain and you can’t be in the same reality as your elf you have to be in a different reality than your elf so you are peace of consciousness you are not in this physical reality in other words you’re your consciousness is not derived from the physical reality so how does freewill play into the aspect of growth learning and the information system okay

well there’s a few things that that information system needs to be conscious and the the way we start is with a system that it’s just awareness and it’s not really conscious yet we could call it primordial conscious if you like it’s awareness and that awareness can do no more than be aware that it’s in state one or state two you know state a or state B so it’s a and this is just an assumption we start there that there is such a Heath in such an entity

that can tell whether it’s in state winter state – and we have to start there it’s not a that’s not a flaw or an assumption that kind of starts in the middle I can we’ll talk about later about the limits of knowledge and it requires such a start anyway so here we have this system and if the system can distinguish between states one and state two then a few things have just happened one time has just been invented because if now I’m in one and you know later I’m

in two then there’s a before and an after state and then time is invented so in order to even have a system that can be aware of being in one state or another you have to have time otherwise it couldn’t change between one state or another which means it really wouldn’t be aware that there were two states it would have to be so time is an integral part of this existence without the time you can’t be in state one and then stay – there’s no before and after now the

thing evolves so this is a system and it evolves and as it evolves remember it’s it’s creating information if it goes to randomness if it lose its idea of these two steps then it’s back to randomness there’s there’s nothing there so it evolves and it gets lots of this state that state the other states multiple states lots of ones lots of lots of two’s raisin bees and it can then put those in a in patterns and you can make patterns of patterns so we have an

evolution going on here with this with this system but it gets limited after a while so what it can do is just one monolithic thing it’s just the thing and it’s making patterns and things but there’s it’s kind of giving its own meaning I guess to those patterns and it’s very limited so what it does is what is natural to things that evolve it’s the same thing our biological cells did once it lowered entropy to the point of its patterns and patterns of patterns

and so on information you know there’s this the state in that state you can think of as ones and zeros in a computer then it needs to interact and it has to interact with a piece of itself so the thing in our biology the cells split or multiple one celled things got together to make a many celled thing or cells split and build up on any celled thing however you want to look at that that’s the way that you create now a whole new set of

novelty wear interactions and patterns become you know much more extensive you’ve just you’ve just added another whole degree of freedom with that because now we have communication but the communication doesn’t mean anything if there’s no free will if the two things that are communicating can’t communicate independently and freely then there’s really no communication if it’s just you talking to yourself and you go hello me and me says hi how you

doing I’m doing fine but it’s all just you playing both parts then you haven’t done anything more than just be the one thing you were you’re still that monolithic thing so unless you get unless you give that other entity free will in other words it can make choices on its own you don’t make its choices for it it has the freedom to choose between the available choices that it has if there’s more than one way it can react to you then it gets to choose

which one of those multiple ways it will it will react what kind of data is it going to share with you how will it interpret the data you send it that has to be free otherwise you’re still stuck with one monolithic thing and you’re not evolving so now we have free will so you have to have time you have to have free will and there’s one more thing you have to have and that is you need a virtual reality now a virtual reality I are

defined before is just a rule set you know it you have information and if you have a rule set you can create a virtual reality based on those rules like the world of warcraft is based on a rule set that defines what the elf and all the other characters and things can do the elf cannot walk through a tree the elf falls off a cliff you know it does get hurt they’ll stays underwater too long it will drown it will die and so on it’s

because there’s a rule set that this finds the constraints of exchanges of interactions between things okay so what rule sets required here it’s communication you have to at least make the rules that define a basic communication protocols so that these two these two entities these two pieces of consciousness can talk to each other can communicate pass data back and forth so you need a you know what we would call a language now this is not a spoken

language obviously but you need a the protocols for communication so those are the things we need this we need this basic prototype of consciousness that is has awareness time is awareness between two states freewill is required so we can interact with something other than just itself so that has something unique to interact to because when it does there’s lots of novelty and lots of new ways to construct and build and make patterns so that’s in its path to

evolution and then you have to have a virtual reality which is a rule set that creates the ability to communicate so that’s all these things are necessary for consciousness if you take any of those away then there is no consciousness so consciousness exists all these things get you know exist at the same time they’re all logically necessary for each other are they’re more advanced less and entropy systems that information systems that exist more

efficiently higher planes of existence now I wouldn’t say more efficiently there are lots of other virtual realities our physical universe is not the only virtual reality there are many some some of them are have very loose rule sets there’s no there’s no more rule set than just the communication protocols at that point the the virtual reality is like a you know a big chat room that has let’s say a hundred thousand people in chat room and there’s no other rules

other than you know how to communicate that you can type and it gets displayed that’s that’s the rule set well that makes a very very loose very minimalist rule set for virtual reality and enters virtuality like ours that has a rule set so let’s let’s say a minute just for a minute how our reality is made our reality was created not by planting a program or planning every tree in rock it wasn’t programmed it evolved so it was given some you’ve got to take some

initial conditions and a rule set now those initial conditions are at our best guess at this time was a very a very small ball of plasma and extremely high energy and high pressure and that plasma when the run button was hit that plasma changed according to the rule set so the initial conditions were set up this plasma of various type and you hit the Run button and and it starts to change because of the pressure it expands and as it expands it cools and

as it cools you get sun’s and then planets and solar systems and then you get an earth and then you get a cell that evolves to be us sitting here talking over Skype so that’s the that’s the that’s how our physical universe is created it’s created as a simulation it is evolving and it continues to evolve it isn’t programmed like World of Warcraft so we have this this virtual reality and it’s evolving and why did we need it because if the point of this

this well on the backup one one more step that I need to make all this coherent and that is when you have a social when you have a system of individuated units of consciousness that are communicating with each other and you do this like I say in order to give more more more degrees of freedom or things that you can construct that way then what you end up with is a social system because it’s a lot of chunks of consciousness interacting with each

other that’s the social system if you take a social system how do you optimize it what do you do to optimize your social system what do you do to reduce entropy as much as possible within this social system since reducing entropy is really the the goal here to keep this thing going and alive well the answer to that is by cooperation by working together by co-op yeah cooperating caring and I call that the the kind of the love path if you will the love

direction and the opposite of that is what I call the fear direction and the fear would be is is a is all about self and the love is all about other how do you how do we optimize this altogether is the is the love direction and how can I get as much as I can for myself is what we have in the fear direction so in that fear direction you see if everyone is out for themselves and there’s no trust because it’s you know it’s based on fear it’s all about you and me and I

need to have what I need and then when I get it I need to keep it so nobody takes it away from me and then because something bigger stronger than me can take it away from me I join up with other units so that we together are well have a kind of a mutual defense pact and we’ll keep other entities from taking our stuff away from this and of course the other entities will form up their own mutual defense packs and then these two groups of entities can fight and

struggle with each other trying to get each other’s stuff and and make sure that nobody else gets their stuff and see that starts to sound like us right and I that’s the that’s the way we you know that’s the that’s the way we’re work here we’re basically fear-based in this or it’s reality so you take those two now the one that is cooperative and each unit of it cares about optimizing the whole that group will eventually you know optimize what

they whatever they’ve got all cooperating a way to build as much as they can build in the other one it’ll never get but so you know low and entropy because there’s always somebody carrying something down because somebody else has something you want well then you know they’ve built something up you tear it down or you take it over you build things up other people tear it down it’s a constant struggle to and competitive world in which it’s very

difficult to cooperate but so much because if you you know cooperation to be really effective requires trust and if there’s no trust in a fear-based world then there’s really it’s hard to cooperate it’s hard to get together it’s hard to build it’s hard to find investors because it’s you know you might lose your investment so so do these do these separate would you call them systems or are they just I mean how would you define these two subsets and

do they do they move apart and then together so the people or the entities that kind of dwell around fear would they kind of collect together and then same with the ones that are around love no it’s not that these it’s not that these two various subsets were created I’m at my description was just to show or just to point out that we have an entity it’s broken itself into pieces it’s interacting and it’s doing this all to reduce its entropy so it can stay

alive and exist right you see so then how does it do that you see how does it optimize itself to do that well the way it does that is by making choices that are cooperative that are supportive of the of the whole end of end of each other now the way that a that a certain a social system the way that works is that the individuals the way they interact is by making choices it’s whatever they do it’s a choice it’s an intent and the intent then is followed

through by a choice and if you make choices that move you toward the love side that move you toward the cooperative side about other then you are part of the solution toward lowering entropy if you make choices that are all self focused and and based on fear then you are moving the system toward the evolution so that gives the system now a goal what you do okay so here it is now it knows what to do it needs to to give its pieces experience

that helps them evolve toward love because that’s how it survives so it needs them to create a virtual reality with more traction with more feedback than this big chat room with a hundred thousand things chatting in it you see with no rules because that has very little traction how do you know what’s your effect is on anything now how does and how do you know what you’re getting is that just made up or is it true there’s no traction there you see yes

you can pass information around but it’s a really slow process of understanding how to make choices such that the system survives so you need a virtual reality where you have a rule set a tight enough rule set where the feedback from your choices is pretty obvious you know what what you are and have the choices you make makes a difference and those consequences are right there in your face you deal with them so that’s the kind of virtual reality that’s been

created with this set of initial conditions and the rule set and you hit the Run button and of course that rule set is our physics it’s basically the rules of how things can interact how energy can be exchanged within this virtual reality in this computation this virtual reality is a simulation and evolving simulation and it was created to create experience where choices could be made with feedback so our virtual reality our physical universe is kind of

the fast track in consciousness evolution because we have all these choices but you you know if you look at it yeah we’re still pretty fear-based but we’ve got a long way to go and we’re making progress but you know you start at the beginning and you your work on it and we are not the only such we might call you know this virtual reality you can call it you know an entropy reduction trainer for individuated units of consciousness

we’re not the only entropy reduction trainer gone on there are others the system wouldn’t put all its eggs in one basket it would it would tweak parameters and the physics in the rule set a little and maybe the initial conditions you need to get something that’s stable and and and functional so now we are we as consciousness are very much like we as the as the player in World of Warcraft consciousness doesn’t exist in the physical virtual reality

the physical virtual reality we call our physical universe just sets the constraints on what you know what the consciousness can experience through that avatar through that beam just like world of warcraft rule set sets the constraints on what you can experience with your elf your elf can only do certain things act certain ways and you know if it does good things that’s it points go up and it goes up levels and if it does bad things it goes down

levels and losses hit points so there’s a there’s a structure a rule set set and and that gives us choice and results of choices so here we are chunks of consciousness we are playing an avatar a character which just like the elf it’s just a computed character our body and this physical reality is just the computations of a simulation just like World of Warcraft is you say so it’s the same sort of thing so we’re consciousness and we’re playing we’re

playing this game it’s a it’s an immersive game we actually we talk about ourselves as an individual unit of consciousness that’s kind of the accumulator if you will that’s the that’s the the larger us and a piece of that is immersed in this game is a player in this game so your your body’s just like the elf it’s a it’s a computed entity and you get a data stream from the server which is in the low consciousness system outside the

physical reality and the data stream is constrained by the constraints of the rule set of that virtual reality so that means that if somebody sneaks up behind you you’re your avatar and hits you over the head with a lead pipe and causes brain damage what that is is it it increases the constraints on that character now that character may be slurs its words and drags its left foot because of the brain damage you say so it’s just increased the constraints and

you can also decrease constraints if you do things that enable you to do more see bigger pictures have a larger decision space so that’s kind of the basic nature of you know how reality works and the neat thing about it is that since I published this in 2003 it was me and maybe two or three other people on the planet who saw this reality as you know being best modeled as a virtual reality and now there’s a lot of physicists at

all the best institutions that think virtual reality is the way of the future because the experiments that physicists do just keep saying that you know this reality is virtual that reality is informational physicists no longer look at electrons as chunks of matter with charge they look at electron as a point with the attribute of charge and the attribute of mass well how would we model an electron in a computer we didn’t need model it as a point with the

attribute of charge and you attribute of mass so that’s we’re moving that way science is going that way physics is going that way so virtual reality seems to be what the experiments and it started in early 1900s the double slit experiment was the first one that basically pointed in that direction and and many many others have I don’t go by a month that I don’t see another paper published in some refereed physics journal explaining that virtual reality

is the only way to explain this experiment so it’s it’s a it’s a coming thing in physics that makes so much sense I’m I’m quite surprised that I haven’t heard this before or heard the theory sooner how do how would deities or archetypes like beings like Christ and and god type figures play into this information system okay well you’ve named several different kinds of things there yeah you know archetypes let’s talk about archetypes as they were

defined by Carl Jung archetypes as he defined them were kind of ideas ways of thinking ways of being that are common to a group of individuals and that group might be a culture you know all the people in this culture kind of think and see the world this way and or it could be species like humans there are archetypes there’s a human archetypes there’s cultural archetypes and and so on he worked that down but he didn’t actually see the bigger picture of the

archetypes or where they come from but the archetypes are created out of I can say group consciousness if you if you will it’s a shared shared thoughts all the individuated units of consciousness are netted okay that’s what consciousness does it communicates and intent is the is the is the motive force intent is is what you know makes that communication go it’s what moves data so all the individual units of countries are all in a big net just like the world

you know the World Wide Web all those web pages are on a big net but you have to have an intent to go click on one of them to get that information if you don’t have that intent then you don’t see that webpage but if you if you have an intent to see that information then you click on it you get that information and you can share information with it so it’s like that we’re all connected but it doesn’t it’s not like the World Wide Web and that you

don’t really have to click all you have to do is have a connection an intention that kind of includes people in your group and then you you’re sharing information now we see that say at the bottom and most simple level is a mob you take a mob and you have 20 people in a mob that want to lynch somebody and you find that the psychology that mob is at a lower level than the psychology of any of the individuals so the mob itself will act worse than any of the

individuals would by themselves why because they’re sharing their trading all this information around and they’re you know feeding each other’s frenzy if you will each other’s fear each other’s anxiety to each other’s hate or whatever it is so because of that mutual reinforcement it gets worse and worse you do the same thing if you’re in a you know if you’re in with a bunch of people who are full of love and caring and respect and all that it kind of pulls

you up some you act a little better when you’re around those people brain of course you walk away from those people and you’re still just yourself because you you don’t you know you haven’t learned anything you have to learn it at the bean level and that’s another concept we have an intellectual level on a bean level your bean level is the core of what’s really you your intellectual level is it’s what you think in other words let’s say we’re talking about

being kind if you if you are kind because you think it’s a good idea and you should be that’s acting kind but if you’re kind at the bean level you just are kind you said you don’t have to think about it you don’t have to say well should I help that person well I probably should because it would it would be nice to do that and that’s an intellectual decision that’s acting kind but if you see a person he’s helping you just help them you don’t think about it

it’s just the way you are you see that’s that’s kindness at the bean level so we we work in these two you know at these two different levels so now I’m kind of have a bigger picture right so we started with the with the assumption of the thing that just it was aware of States and we got time and with time you know we yeah we have missed information exchange versus the virtual reality we also had to break apart so that it would be able to create more

structure with itself and it just did that because that’s what evolution does it finds things at work and then once it finds that thing it works it works with it and if it finds things that don’t work they just disappear so it did that so we have consciousness now consciousness has free will there’s time and it’s aware and it’s an information system because all these this in that states are ones and zeros it learns to communicate which is

basically what patterns are see a pattern itself is a communication if I make a pattern and I say up down up down up down you know what the next one’s going to be it’s going to be enough say how did you know that because there’s information in the pattern so the pattern patterns are information and so this is our system and because it needed to survive it needed the lower entropy it’s a social system and the way to do that is toward cooperation love and caring so

that’s the way the choices and interactions had to go the big ten thousand a hundred thousand people in the chatroom wasn’t very effective so it needed to make a virtual reality that had more rules than just communication protocols and it had to be one that it gave good feedback from you know by by having enough rules that you’ve got consequences for your actions and you can actually see the results of them so that’s kind of the big picture pulled it

all together and and here we are as a I call it a free will awareness unit which is the part of the individual unit of consciousness that is immersed in this game and just like you might be immersed in playing World of Warcraft and then because it takes a while to change at the bean level you see growth real entropy reduction of the system is when consciousness reduces his entropy it becomes a different thing it changes itself at the bean level not just

becomes aware of something at the intellectual level so we have to grow up we have to move toward becoming love and cooperation and caring as opposed to it’s all about me gimme gimme gimme so this process goes on and the whole thing evolves as we evolve we evolve individually but as we do it evolves because we’re we’re it we’re part of it you see so that’s the that’s kind of the dynamics and now we’ve defined a whole lot of things we’ve defined morality

something’s good if it leads toward the individual in the system lowering its entropy something’s bad if it you know leads the individual and therefore the the whole into increasing its entropy that’s now we have a morality we understand love and we can give it a technical definition love is the nature of a low entropy consciousness that’s what love is we have defined the our physical reality why is it how does it work that it’s virtual that it’s

computational it’s a simulation and it’s evolving we’ve defined ourselves and our relationship to it we’re players in a virtual reality game and we’re here to make choices to help ourselves evolve toward lower entropy States so that kind of pulls now a whole lot of things together and because this simulation is that that is our physical reality is not a deterministic simulation it’s a probabilistic simulation deterministic simulations are just way too much

computation they’re not efficient it’s much better if you use the computations to develop probability distributions and then run your simulations from those probability distributions that’s just a a more efficient process because you have the rule set the system has its the system’s rule set it knows all the rule sets so it can do the the calculations to produce the probability distributions that describe the way you know action

unfolds here in terms of probability are there are there rule sets that can purposely alter or hinder the growth of certain subsets of systems for example could could my choices be limited because I don’t have money how how does how does the macro system assure that growth within the system itself occurs okay your choices are not limited because you don’t have money your choices are different because you don’t have money you say it does

limit your choices it’s the choices are different now remember the the goal here is to lower your entropy not to see how much you know money you can collect or how much beer you can drink it’s to lower your entropy it’s to grow up and all the choices you make be they rich or poor give you opportunities and challenges to grow up so you have is just as rich and environment and you know to in growing up as rich or poor or you know anything else any other kind of

dichotomy that you can come up with so the choices are everywhere and richer pores just different choices not better or worse choices hmm very very interesting and it actually makes sense and it it really does it fits so how does how does synchronicity and metaphysics like picking up on energy and perceiving information before it’s available how does all of this stuff other stuff kind of working okay well one of the interesting things about this

is that what’s normally seen as paranormal turns out to just be normal once you have a bigger picture paranormal means outside of normal you know it can’t be explained by normal normal understanding so the paranormal is just normal because in the bigger picture we have we can explain several of those those things let’s see I’ll start with your your one about information part of the structure in creating this virtual reality and

maintaining it requires a couple of databases and one of the databases is called the future probable database and the future probable database is a database of all the things that could happen in the next Delta T okay the next Delta P means the next little increment of time okay we’re in a we’re in a simulation so time is the outer loop time jumps up one increment and then you recalculate everything that’s now in that time and of course choices are made

we have free will choices so choices are made in the next delta t then you know those choices get you know happen so that’s the future probable database everything that could possibly happen and the probability that it might happen so you may have ten choices you may have a decision space and there’s ten different things that you could choose way that you could go here and there’s a probability based on your past performance and you know who

you are and how you’ve done you have a probability of which one you’ll choose that means that the system itself it can can kind of keep current on what’s gonna happen next so it can be ready because it’s got a lot of data streams to service and it doesn’t want to wait and get surprised that it works on a probability basis so that it can do probably ninety 98 percent of its work just based on probability and and then around the edges you know we do things

that that aren’t probable we can sometimes just do strange things that our freewill abel’s us to do and then the system basically has to recalculate that effect forward rebuilding the new probable thread along that that action and all the things that interacts with so that’s one database and then we have our history database and our history database is I get into two parts it’s just one database but there’s two ways of looking at it two sections to it

there’s everything that could have happened and the probability that it would have happened okay so now that’s just that future probable database as it moves through the present which is where all the choices are made that’s where all the action is is in the present as it moves through the president of the past you end up with it now is a history database and instead of everything that could happen and probability it does it’s everything that could have happened

and the probability that it would have okay now there’s a thread one thread that runs through that past database that is our actual history that’s what we actually did okay and that’s our history thread now those databases are available to us because we are consciousness yes we are immersed in this in this virtual reality game but we’re still consciousness and as consciousness we can do everything that consciousness can do we can

communicate we can you know we pass information between other units of consciousness so it’s it’s it’s in the interest of the system for us to evolve exactly because our evolution is its evolution you say so the system wants us to evolve and it gives us the kind of the tools to do that in the in the virtual reality there’s one other point I haven’t made yet and that is one of the feedbacks systems that we have in this virtual reality is that we can

modify the probability in the future probable database with our intent so with a focused and clear intent we can modify that you know over those 10 things we might choose we can kind of raise the probability of of what happens and because it’s not just our choice that that thing may be affected by a lot of other people who are also you know connected to that particular choice and we can raise or lower the the probability of that happening with our

intent so that’s why you have people who are very positive often live in very positive circumstances things just kind of happen for them and you have people that are always oh woe is me you know life sucks other never works out and they do indeed live a life where everything sucks and things just don’t work out for them because they are biasing probability to give them that kind of of life what you fear tends to your fear if you’re a fearful you know a

fearful person the things that you fear you tend to raise the probability of those things happening because of your fear because that’s energy being put into that to that outcome is the outcome in your fear so anyway that that answers then a whole lot of a lot of questions of how people can you know use their intent to to modify the nature of things like that that we’ll explain the placebo effect how is it that what you tell a person about the

medicine they’re taking and about their illness can actually affect the state of that illness so you give person a a pill you know with sawdust in it and you tell them it’s a wonderful new medicine and it’s going to make their kidney problem go away it’s made everybody else’s kidney problem go away and it’s really going to be great and you’ll find out that even though they’ve had no medicine whatsoever about 35% of them their kidney problem you know goes away it

helps compared to a control group that aren’t told anything they’re just given the sawdust and said here eat this you see so the the control group should have as many just random events coming and going as the other group but we find a statistical significance that that the placebo effect is a real effect indeed placebo effect is law you can’t sell a drug unless you can you can beat the placebo effects – there’s a paranormal phenomena that’s a part of our legal

system so anyway we go back to these other things so you can get into these databases if you use your intent as a query and get information out of it for about the probable future again it’s only probable and you can get information out of the database that’s historical including all the things that could have happened but didn’t as well as the things that did happen and all the information is there when I say all the information I don’t mean like

information you’re used to in a book I mean every think of a character think of yourself in the history that’s that’s being piled up there for your choices it would be all of your feelings all of your attitudes all of your thoughts all of your emotions it’s everything about you because all of this is part of the information system you see so it’s a complete description of the event including a description of you and your moods and what you’re you know being

level is doing and what your intellectual level is doing and all of your intents and feelings and all the rest of it goes so it’s not just a record of what happened and when it happened it’s the full it’s the full record so we can get around in those those things now what about people who have precognitive dreams it’s one of the things you mentioned well that’s just getting into that database and seeing what is possible and what is probable

and if your intent is focused you can do a you know you can go in there with precision and get information if you’re intentional foggy you get you know real foggy results it’s like in Google Google Google love and you get millions of returns you know and a lot of its garbage same with a sloppy intent in the databases so you need precision and often you get something that’s not quite what you wanted but close and then you have to you have to modify your query to

make it more specific and so it’s the same kind of process that you need to go through so what about mental healing well that’s changing the probability of a person’s illness if you heal them with your mind that’s not you know these things are really particularly hard anybody can learn to do them with a little practice what are some of those other things you mentioned synchronicity we have synchronicity because as you said our success is the system success

so if you are a person who is aware then the system can feed you nudges can give you information can kind of help things happen to give you the challenge or the information that you just happen to need so if you’re such a person and you walk into a bookstore suddenly your attention is is riveted on a particular book and or it’s it’s just like the book jumped out of the shelf into your hands sort of thing you know you just walked over and

grabbed that book for some reason it was just one book among a whole lot and you don’t know what that reason is but you just did it and it turns out it’s something that’s really important and information you really needed to have those kinds of ents are called you know synchronicity when they happen they’re synchronous events that things that just happen that that everything off of them happened to you you realize they’re not random because they have specific

significant meaning to you it’s not just a random event that well yeah you know I walk over and grab books out of libraries and half the time there you the other half the time you know they’re okay but you know that would just be randomness but when you live in a world with their synchronicity it happens to you daily and all the time and you realize that it can’t be random because it’s too one-sided to be random so that’s where synchronicity comes from

the system wants you to want you to succeed and can nudge you to go on a particularly path that would be good and challenging you to grow in ways that you need to grow so we have that but now it’s not going to force anything because there’s freewill and it cannot interfere with your freewill so a nudge is all you’re gonna get and if you won’t if you won’t accept that data if you can’t use it and can’t process it then you won’t

get it so there are some people that just can’t be nudged because they just blow it off oh I have to go over and grab that book well that’s stupid why would I want to grab that book and they turn around go the other way right because they just can’t process that data and those are the people that have never had a synchronous event they’ve never had a precognitive dream they’ve never heard someone else talk in their mind you know telepathically and they

don’t have these kinds of experiences because they can’t use them they can’t process them so Wow Wow so how would we use information that perhaps causes us problems for our benefit I’m really just I’m absorbing everything that you’ve been saying and it’s it really is a lot of information huh then we have just barely scratched the surface how can we learn from the things that present us problems I mean if if the system really does want me to succeed wouldn’t it be

feeding me these sort of success stories you know on a consistent basis or is there also a learning mechanism and evolution mechanism involved well yes you have to you have to learn the system is not trying to lead the witness you know when it does the synchronicity it’s trying to lead you into making choices that you otherwise wouldn’t have made now it’s interfering with your free will you can’t grow up if it’s not really your choice you say you have to make it

has to be your own choice made out of your own bean level out of the out of the core of you this is what you’re like this is the choice you make and then you get consequences now it can it can kind of give you some information you gotta point you in a direction but you have to actually use the information and go in the direction you know you have to be able to process the data and use it so if there’s something you know if there’s

something going on in your life that is causing pain and dysfunction then that is a good sign that what you’re doing and the choices you’re making are suboptimal that they’re probably fear-based and this pain is a challenge for you to to be different not just to act different but to be different so the the pain that we get in our life and the circumstances that we see is maybe not being good for us all offer us opportunity to make better choices you

see first we have to take responsibility for all the choices we make and most of us don’t take responsibility for our choices for instance somebody says something that makes you angry somebody slighted you or said something you know real negative about you and and it makes you angry so you say that person made me angry it’s not true you chose to be angry that person created a situation where you had choices and you chose to be angry so you have to take

responsibility for who you are and what you are and not blame it on other people or situations or I was born poor or I was born blind or you know whatever it might be you have you have certain choices and a decision space is basically all those choices you have and somebody might say well I don’t have the choice to be nice because that’s just not the way I am somebody says something nasty to me I get angry well you do have the choices you just aren’t choosing

those joy you say you’re not you may not even be aware of those choices sometimes you’re just reacting out of your fear well you if you find that fear and get rid of it now you have more choices you live in a larger reality you have a bigger decision space and you are evolving so all of those all of our dysfunction tends to come back and bite us in terms of unpleasant situations that we’re in we create most of the pain in our lives our selves because of our

choices and we are a product of those choices so it’s not only our choice just now in the moment it’s our history of choices you see creates situations that that we are in so if if I make a fear-based choice is is it accurate to say that that it that same information would kind of loop back so that I could learn it again so that I could make the love based choice well it’s like this there’s no free lunch you only can grow up if you if you make the effort to do

it if you make a bad choice then you just haven’t learned that lesson there was an opportunity to make a better choice and you missed that opportunity well what happens is you get to try again and try again and try again and you just get to keep trying again with different kinds of choices and different sorts of scenarios and situations until you grow up and if that takes you know a long long time then it’s just gonna be a slow process

of growing up so it’s not like well I’ve been you know I’ve been working on this particular lesson for a long time you know just graduate me to the next level that doesn’t happen you have to the only way you get to the next level is to grow up now another point we could make here is that I said that there was a free-will awareness unit that was immersed in this virtual reality and a kind of a larger part of that and that’s just a piece of a larger

individuated unit of consciousness that’s kind of the accumulator of all the experience because this learning is is difficult it takes a long time to change yourself at the bean level and grow up you have to you have to cumulate that over a lot of different experience packets because what happens is that we get we we ended up painting ourselves into a corner by the time we’re we’re old we have come to believe that we know almost everything we’ve

been there and done that and we have beliefs we have fears and we’re not giving them up you know they’re ours and that’s just the way we are well we kind of get stuck then we’re painting ourselves in a corner where we’re no longer growing being becoming you know growing up we’re stopped so the thing to do then is you have to let that go and have another experience packet and some people then would call that reincarnation so you have all these

various experience packets and it’s a cumulative process to grow up it’s just not reasonable that you’re going to grow up from where we start to a being of love in one experience packet won’t happen it’s not not going to happen so there are multiple and it’s the same way in world of warcraft you know that that Elfa yours probably gets killed three or four times every night that you play the game because it’s just the way they it’s

just the way the game is right and it you what do you do you go to the graveyard and you know how do we win the game is that I mean is that the goal winning the game we know we don’t win the game it’s the process that’s important not the not the end goal what’s the growing up that’s the important you don’t win the game you just get better and better at playing the game to where you don’t need pain to hit you between the eyes with the two before to get your

attention to grow up your life becomes full of joy and satisfaction because now you can grow up without the pain you know you have kind of past that that part so it’s just getting you know we just keep growing up the things about you know entropy is much like infinity in that sense is that you don’t get to zero entropy you can only get asymptotic toward it in other words you can only approach it but you never get there you can never actually get to infinity

infinity is just an abstract concept it’s not something that is real can exist this real you can just approach it you can get bigger and bigger but you can ever actually get to infinity it’s impossible thing so the end is not fixed it’s not like you get to a certain point in bingo you win and you’re done and you’ve won the game it’s a it’s a process that goes on because it says any it’s evolution remember the larger consciousness system

is not a fixed thing it’s evolving it’s changing it’s becoming it’s different you know today than it was yesterday and we are evolving and changing this whole thing is a dynamic process evolution doesn’t quit evolution well as long as there are choices to be made then evolution will keep on turning it’ll keep trying things and the things that work will will you know go on and the things that don’t work will die out and that’s what it

does and in this virtual reality there’s tons of choices and ways to go and unexplored paths and ways of being and relating that we haven’t explored yet so evolution is open-ended and so is our existence but the good news is it’s not always tough and it’s not always full of pain and it’s not always stressful it gets to be a lot of fun and and kind of a joyous trip once you get to a certain level of evolution you know the games

not just about you it’s about everybody then you become helpful and cooperative and help other people learn and grow and give them encouragement and a good example so there’s always something to do some way to be useful and productive in this system it’s not like we’re all cooperating to build a house and when the house is done it’s done then we’re out of work this house will never get done because it’s about us growing up growing up so a slow process and I

should say the system is not infinite and it’s not perfect it’s a real system which means it can’t be infinite because infinite systems can’t be real and it’s not a perfect system it’s just a system that’s evolving and it has rules and structure and sometimes these rules get violated and sometimes by nations get dealt with and sometimes they get away with it it’s just you know it’s a it’s a real system it’s a good system and it works well it’s very

efficient but it’s not you’re you are an experimenter I’m sorry to interrupt but you mean you experiment so have you ever been able to recreate a situation where there is a type of glitch or that you can cause something to be affected with say your mind or maybe further than that yeah you can you can you can cause things to happen with your mind because you can modify the future probability so mine can affect what happens that’s we

we all do that in some ways that’s why the reality that we’re in it’s a reality that we see you know just look at you know look at the news watch the TV go out and walk around and if you you know what you see is the way it is because of the way we are it’s a very accurate representation of the quality of humanity our average quality is this basically represents the average stuff going on out there so if you look at you know that that terrible government that

bad dictator that you know terrible money system and all the things that people you know complain most about that that’s the problem well the reason that’s that way is because we are the way we are you see we create this reality it’s our feedback it’s our intense it’s the way we interact with each other so what you see is who we are and the best way to fix it is to grow up individually because then that helps you know that you grow up and you become a

you become a light to others and help others grow up and that’s how you fix it if you decide well I can fix the system I’ll get rid of that nasty dictator and put in somebody better that maybe civilizing and it may make things better for a while but what you’re doing is treating symptoms not fixing the problem and just like our our medicine today is mostly symptomatic medicine we don’t you know our doctors often aren’t treating

core problems they’re not treating causes they’re awfully often treating symptoms you see they just give us something to make us feel better make the symptoms go away while the body actually does its own healing that’s our typical medicine so we fixed that money system we fixed that dictator and we’ve done a symptomatic relief which might make everybody breathe easier and give us more time to agitate and and meditate but basically we’ve just changed a

simply fixed the symptom and that symptom will reassert itself it won’t stay fixed unless we change because it that symptoms there because it reflects us there was there was a there was a scene in the matrix where I guess it was mr. Smith and he was it was when a Morpheus was was kind of captured by the agents of the matrix and mr.

Smith is talking to Morpheus and he says that the matrix was the way it was because because humans needed the the the suffering aspect of it to learn that the the matrix had once been a sort of utopia but humans had rejected it because it didn’t work for their learning right well wouldn’t so much they’re learning they weren’t good batteries remember they were using the humans as batteries to power their system right and that’s what the humans

were they were actually all of them little full take cells providing power and the humans didn’t do well if they didn’t have the if they didn’t have the struggle they they weren’t good batteries then because they all just kind of you know they weren’t challenged didn’t mr. Monroe find out that we this was a sort of battery type system I I think it was in ultimate journey where he I think in his journal it said that he was pretty depressed after he found

out and he stopped projecting for a while that was the thing about Lucius you’re talking about yes yeah yeah I remember when Bob wrote that because he was discussing it with when he wrote that he said you know I’ve been out and here’s here’s the stuff I found he was he was telling us about it and I didn’t have any sense that he was really depressed that he seemed he seemed to be just just fine but it was a it was a big thing for him and you have

to you have to realize that what you get you’re getting the datastream when you’re in out-of-body state it’s just like being here you’re in a different virtual reality okay it’s not the same physical universe richer but a different works reality you’re still getting a data stream and you still have to interpret that data stream based on your own history based on your own experience your your own data your own data set your own an experience data I guess

would be a good thing to say so that was Bob’s interpretation of what was going on and if you just take it literally it’s it says something that that sounds a little uh you know sci-fi ish and yes the you know where the were the providers of lush for some other things that they eat but that’s just a metaphor but I’ve got you we get metaphors when we’re out there we get we get information and then we have to interpret them that was Bob’s

interpretation and you can you can read that metaphor a little differently in that what we need to do and what people are supposed to be doing is becoming loved making these choices meeting the challenges and that is what energizes the whole system that’s what makes the system work that’s the you know that’s the fuel that keeps the information system alive if you will is the fact that we are lowering entropy so the fuel is us lowering entropy and if you make

that too loose you can kind of see where the where the metaphor is going it’s not quite the the same as if you take it literally so that’s really what was what was happening there one other question you said well what about spirits and gods and and that kind of thing and and so I would say that the larger consciousness system they and becomes what theologians talk about right Theo is about God right and the larger consciousness system is our

source it’s our Creator we are subsets of it so you might say we’re made in its image it has all the data so you might say it’s omniscient although that’s not really true there’s things going on that it really doesn’t know about because it only knows like we do with intent and if it’s intent isn’t there then it’s not paying attention it how it is it is trying to help us succeed because our success is its success so we get synchronicity and other such things so

there’s a lot of characteristics there that sound pretty similar to what various you know religions might say about about God in fact I was I was in a talk and at the end two theologians came up I was doing this at the Atlanta church and in Atlanta and two theologians came up and I asked them I said will tell me the attributes of God as you understand that concept just what are the attributes and they thought about that for a while between the two

of them they listed the kind of a bunch of things and all of the things they listed were were not things that had to do with creed and Dogma and ritual and that kind of stuff it was all they were this was a unity church so they were a little more or I should say a little less dogmatic and many other religions might have been but when they were done with their list all of the things they said were attributes of the larger consciousness system you say so that

then becomes becomes the you know that is our our Creator that’s where we come from that’s us we are consciousness just like it is consciousness we’re subsets of it so it’s not perfect it’s not infinite and that makes it a little different than most people’s ideas of God there is no ending it’s the evolving its in the state of becoming but that’s another thing when it’s a big when it’s a really a big cow then it has to answer questions in theology as well

as physics so that that answers you know questions of theology and if you look at that it makes it easy to see what’s the what’s the dogma what’s the nonsense you know what’s the the stuff that’s that’s been added by the people over the years and what’s the real core concepts okay and then you can kind of look at the at the theology we have now and it separates out very nicely as to what’s significant and what isn’t so that’s another aspect of it mr. Campbell you

are one of the smartest people I’ve talked to in my life hands down this is incredible information and I I really really it has kind of connected a lot of dots for me that in my own thinking that I kind of had in my mind anyway and it completes a sort of puzzle its eloquent yeah I’ve heard that a lot but one of the things that that’s interesting is I gone a lot of places and given Thaksin and most of the time I’ll have somebody come up to

me and they’ll say you know are you a are you a Tibetan Buddhist because I’ve studied Tibetan Buddhism for the last 15 years and what you’re talking about is right on you know that’s Tibetan Buddhism and somebody else will come up and say I’ve been studying the or what is that there’s a Christian Gnostics they tell me the same thing and then there’s the other other isms and things you know and I’ve probably had dozens of these things that I’m just like you know

and it’s it’s it’s a whole lot like this and that and that’s the way it is when you basically have a bigger picture you find there’s lots and lots of people who have had pieces of that bigger picture and they all just kind of dovetail very nicely together and suddenly you can see the connections between them all and see how it all fits into one you know it’s a one bigger picture usually that’s that’s kind of that’s very neat and what’s doubly neat about

it is that that same bigger picture that solves all this theology and metaphysics and paranormal and all that also does better physics it also is is kind of the future in physics so it explains things that physics can explain now that’s that’s the neat thing if it were just metaphysics then we have this tendency to say where we got science on one hand and we got this other touchy-feely stuff on the other hand but the two really

aren’t connected actually they’re antagonistic with each other but that’s not the case in the bigger picture you derive all of it it turns out that hard science physics chemistry that’s just a subset of of the of this this reality this larger physical what we call it the the larger reality system that’s our physical universe it’s just that science is deals with those things in this universe that have low uncertainty so where there where

there’s interactions in this rule set that are a very low uncertainty that’s hard science where you have more uncertainty that’s soft science like medicine and psychology and economics and sociology those are all soft Sciences and they don’t deal in objective facts they deal in statistics because they have variables that can’t be isolated you say you deal with people you deal with a lot of uncertainty and they are the soft sciences because they

have more uncertainty and then you get into things like metaphysics and that seems to have even more uncertainty so these are just various parts of this system that you can that you can look at and and we kind of divide them up by how much uncertainty comes with them because the ones that have very little uncertainty they’re easier to deal with so we do those first that’s science kind of started out dealing just with those things and scientists the hard

scientists even have a hard time calling things like economics and you know sociology science but they are just a science that works with the subjective as well as the objective and you work with subjective science with statistics and metaphysics isn’t any different so when I’m doing research in the larger consciousness system from then it the idea was like from an out-of-body State well it’s the same thing this is subjective science and the

way you do real science with that is is with statistics you have to do things over and over again and see what you what changes when you change you know the variables you can control do you think do you think that’s why mr. Monroe is so good at kind of chronicling objectively his experience is it he was just he was a very good navigator okay he was and and he was he did a you know he was more of an engineer by personality now I don’t think he really

was an engineer he was he was a businessman this is his forte he was in radio before he was in cable business he was a pilot small planes so he thought though he had the personality of an engineer in other words things had to make sense to him he had to be logical he needed to see the causal chain or he wasn’t going to accept it that was just his personality so when he wrote his books he had the you know instead of trying to interpret it all for his

audience of what he thought a tall man he most of the time just wrote down exactly what it was the experience it was like a diary you know here’s what I experienced I experienced these things I did this and then this happened and that happened and you know the next day I did something else so he doesn’t try to tell us how to think about it and what to make of it he just tells us what happened of course what he tells us happened is his own

interpretation of the of the metaphors that he gets in the data stream from that virtual reality but still it’s it’s honest it’s a very straightforward and that’s something we hadn’t had before before when you read books about astral projection and that sort of thing there was so much oh you know disjointed theory in it that really didn’t make sense they were trying to make their best guess of you know what it was and what it all meant

but they were it was mostly coming out of their own beliefs and their own limitations so it made it a lot harder to to read and to get something out of where’s Bob’s it’s just straightforward and he was a good reporter in that he didn’t he didn’t color it he just stated it and that’s why it that’s why it’s endured so just just cloak to clothes that we’re running out of time here but what so then what is your interpretation of of what he was experiencing and and

spoiler spoiler alert for anyone who hasn’t read the books the there was he was collecting himself it seemed to exit the earth life system I mean is that if that analysis correct yes you might say that that is the way it was going on that was his interpretation it really shouldn’t be taken literally it wasn’t it wasn’t a literal thing the information that he was getting is that he he was an individual unit of consciousness that had the kind of the

collection or the you know learning has to be cumulative he was the accumulator and he was accumulating his own experiences so it’s like he was the free will awareness unit that’s a subset of this individuated unit of conscious that’s the cumulate er of all the experience packets you might have a free will where in this unit maybe you know let’s say that’s that’s you and your your individual unit of conscious of that Oversoul higher self or something

like that it may have another incarnation going on at the same time it’s not necessarily just one at a time although that’s typical it may have several so it’s accumulating all this information and he is feeding it so he was accumulating himself if you will and that was to grow up to become loved to evolve in the positive direction so if you look at it like that that’s kind of the you know that’s that’s kind of the picture of what he

was seen and he just laid it out in more detail because of his own history and background he didn’t see kind of the larger picture of that so he gave just what he saw just how he interpreted it so that’s what you that’s what you get there so that’s what we’re doing and this whole you know like Bob wasn’t aware that what he saw was his interpretation he just what he saw was what he saw and it was there so in Bob Monroe’s books he talks about this part

that he goes to and he goes to his part to relax and kind of meditate and thinking and that’s his Park you see somebody else who had the same sort of data stream would say oh I go out in a rowboat in the middle of a lake I just sit drift and somebody else would say oh I stand on a Butte in Nevada and just look you know out of this vast you know so it’s individualized here yes and somebody else goes out into the woods and hikes and so Bob Monroe had a part

because that’s that is what gave that’s what meant to him of this serene place where he could kind of go and just and just be it was a nice protected pleasant place to be so it was a part because that’s Bob’s interpretation of that data stream everybody has to interpret the day that they get based on their own experience base and that’s true of us as freewill awareness units here we are consciousness we’re playing in Avatar we’re getting a data stream we have to

interpret that data stream in terms of our experience base so two people get the same data stream they interpret it differently now if they come from the same culture they probably interpret it similarly they come from vastly different cultures they may interpret it completely differently you say so it’s it has to do with with who we are you know for the culture we’re in bob was a straightforward reporter and most of us kind of understand what he was saying

it’s a mistake to take it too literally you kind of have to read between the lines not just not just the lines it’s like that in an out-of-body situation it’s a data stream it’s another virtual reality it’s not reality when you die here when the body dies here just like when your elf dies you know hit with your elf you run to the graveyard and then you have to go back and collect all your stuff but when you die here you end up in another virtual reality it’s not

the graveyard but it’s another virtual reality where you begin to plan if you will and process to another experience packet because that’s what you do you go from experience packet to experience packet trying to evolve the quality of your consciousness so the system can can evolve with you Wow mr. Campbell thank you so much for this conversation I’ve learned more in the last couple hours and I have in a while so thank you yeah thank you so much for

being here is there is there a site where people can find your work yes and I would you know I have a website but that websites a little broken right now I’m in the process of doing better but there’s still a lot of information there you can find all of my talks my interviews you will be able to find this very interview on my youtube everything I do one of the requirements is that it be put out for free and they’re all on YouTube they’re all for free my books

are for free on Google Books although it is an older first printing version and I’m up to like printing number five now so it’s it’s a little outdated in the details but it’s mostly it’s mostly the same so yeah it’s still a good one to to read but go to YouTube I’ve got like 215 220 videos there I caution people to take it a small byte at a time some of those videos are like Calgary is a real good summary it was a Calgary workshop that’s what it’s called

it’s about three years old now but I did a real good over the you know over the top kind of flyby of all the concepts and what they meant and so on and it’s you know Friday I gave about two and a half hour overview and then Saturday we talked all day about the theory which means like six or seven hours and then Sunday we do exercises in experiencing the larger reality so I teach people how to you know about remote viewing and how to

body and how to heal with your mind and then we do some exercises and healing and remote viewing and so on so that’s if you take that all together you’re like fourteen you know fifteen sixteen hours out of that that Calgary workshop and of course that’s intimidating to people fifteen hour video you know no way so so take it in like you know 20 minute chunks that’s a good thing about YouTube you can always come back pick up where you left off yeah and then you can

get through and some of them are short some of my things are short is five minutes so it’s just lots of stuff out there love it love it man well you guys heard it here this is the human experience thank you so much for listening guys this was such a fun episode we will tech check you guys next week thank you