Transcript for Tom Campbell – General Relativity, Consciousness, Meta

dances permeating the nature of reality

running here over your paradigms and

getting objective with my guest tonight

nasa physicist consciousness explorer

and author of his book my big toe mr.

tom campbell tom my good sir welcome to

hxp well thank you save you’re glad to

be here hopefully we can make some

interesting conversation today yes I

sure think we will I would just like to

open the conversation by saying that you

have the most amazing beard I have ever

seen it is the Einstein of beards and we

can call it the Campbell beard if that’s

okay with you now what makes my beard so

unusual doesn’t it just look like any

any old guy with a you know white hair

and white beard

yes but I like your beard okay so moving

past pleasantries let’s let’s talk Tom

about your work with mr. Monroe I find

mr. Monroe quite fascinating and so I I

know that you guys work together if you

could just get into the birth of

hemi-sync and your work with Robert

Monroe that I think that would be

interesting okay my introduction I’m a

physicist and and my introduction to an

awareness of a larger reality than just

a physical started with TM meditation

and that was why it was in graduate

school working on my PhD I found out

that I could use a TM state to D you

know to debug software much better and

more accurately than I could go over you

know printouts reams and reams of

printouts it was a it was an easy thing

I could just bring up the printouts in

my mind look at them and the ones that

were faulty would turn red and I could

just look at them and read them and i

was familiar enough with my printouts i

could go find that line and sure enough

that’s where you know the keyhole you

know this is back in the old days where

you had punch cards and boxes and boxes

of them it’s a very was very difficult

compared to today

climate of debugging but anyway I could

find errors there you know a misplaced

semicolon was a comma or punch punch

card hole was a little off-center or

some kind of thing like that there was

lots of things that created errors and

it was important in those days because

you didn’t get very many runs and the

computers were pretty slow and a

different world altogether so anyway

that was my introduction and I got out

of graduate school took a job and before

too long being in that first job my boss

handed me a book of journeys out of the

body but mom by Bob Monroe I had never

heard of journeys out of the body or Bob

Monroe but when your boss hands you a

book and says read it you read it and I

did and the boss says well what did you

think and I said well if this is true

then wow there’s a whole lot of reality

there that I don’t know about and if

it’s false then who can tell you no how

can we tell the difference between

whether it’s true or not and then it

turned out that Bob Monroe lived and

worked just

oh maybe 45 minutes away from where we

all lived and worked and we had an

appointment and a bunch of people from

where I work who had also read the book

maybe 10 15 people mostly scientists

engineers that type we went all out to

see Bob Monroe and see who was this guy

who wrote this book and was he a

charlatan or was he for real and that

was my first introduction to Bob Monroe

and while I was there it turned out Bob

had just built a laboratory for the

study of consciousness because he’d had

these out-of-body experiences happened

to him and he wasn’t satisfied that it

was just weird stuff that happened to

him he wanted to understand it Bob

Monroe was a businessman he was the the

CEO and founder of a cable company at

the time reasonably wealthy and I lived

on this very nice estate Ivan in the

countryside with you know horses running

alongside the white board fence and that

sort of thing so he was he was willed to

do and my my first thought and driving


to his estate was that he didn’t do it

for the money because he you just don’t

make that much money with that kind of a

book if you’ve already got that much

money it’s not worth the trouble so that

wasn’t it so I worked with Bob Monroe

for the next ten years myself and Dennis

met Eric he was a electronic engineer

who worked with me and we went out to

Bob’s to help understand this

out-of-body experience to learn what Bob

could teach us about experiencing the

larger reality ourselves because if it’s

not your experience it’s not your truth

if if you just do it all intellectually

about Bob’s experience then you’re very

limited and never understanding it some

things you need to experience to

understand and the larger consciousness

system and this out-of-body Rio this is

one of those things so we both had to

had the idea well if this turns out just

to be bogus then you know we’re out of

there but well let’s go it’s gonna be

sounds exciting sounds like fun so let’s

see what happened well what happened is

that before long bob had taught Dennis

and I both to go out of body when you

know on demand whenever we wanted to and

we did a lot of research and evidential

things what could we effect what kind of

information could we gather you know

that’s sort of that’s like remote

viewing if you will you go see things

and and and describe what was there and

then check it out we tried healing we

tried you know telekinesis you name it

and we tried it just to see what we

could do with it and all the while we’re

working in the lab building equipment to

try to monitor their physiological

responses and and trying to come up with

tools that would help drive these

altered states of consciousness and and

that sort of thing so that was my life

then for the best part well I’d say five

years it was intense

and that means you know I was working in

a 40-hour a week job which was more like

a 50 or 55 hour a week job and I was

spending 20 hours 15 to 20 hours a week

with Bob Monroe either working in the

lab doing

experiments or you know being the

subject of experiments myself and and

having you know Bob but teach me how to

explore this new reality so that was it

and and in that amount of time Dennis

and I did find a way to enhance the

experience or at least drive the altered

states in which the spirit this

experience about a body became more

accessible to the average person and

that was called binaural beats and

binaural beats are our technology that

you can find on the internet if your

google binaural beats you’ll find two or

three sites that’ll let you make a

binaural beat to suit yourself

and what a binaural beat is that you put

two independent frequencies one in each

year so you need a headset and you need

a stereo player and you put one tone one

pure frequency in one year let’s just

say a hundred Hertz and in one year then

you put a hundred and four Hertz in the

other ear now any of you know a little

bit about physics now if you have two

pure frequencies like that and they get

to mix like in air or in your nervous

system that you’ll end up with a beat

frequency that’s the difference between

the two frequencies in this case the

beat frequency would be about four Hertz

so what happens is you get the one tone

goes in let’s say you’re right here the

other tone goes in your left ear and you

get a four Hertz beat signal at the

corpus callosum which is the basically

the membrane that area between the two

hemispheres of the brain and it turns

out that that beat signal then drives

the EEG so if you put an EEG on a person

you will find more and more of the

energy in there EEG starts to fall under

the four Hertz you know frequency range

in that in that range so that’s that’s a

theta state so we tried that on lots of

people some knew what we were doing most

were just naive and you know here listen

to this and you know what happens and we

were we had the EEG on them and GSR and

other sorts of monitoring equipment and

then we talked to them about what their

experience was like

and so on and and we realized that this

was really a pretty powerful tool that

would help one get into what I guess we

might call a good meditation state and

by good I mean a very productive one one

that one that’s useful for were then

focusing one’s intent and healing or

traveling or doing what else you wanted

to do so that was that was kind of how I

got connected with Bob Monroe and how

Dennis and I ended up discovering this

binaural beats and actually Dennis was

really the one that came up with it he

had he was reading a scientific American

article and the author of an article

this was not back in 1972 and there was

an article by I don’t remember the first

name but the last name was Auster and he

wrote about binaural beats and he gave a

little bit of it was a kind of a new

thing and he was just writing this

article to introduce the concept of the

people and he indicated that it that

there was a possibility that it might

influence you know EEG output so Dennis

saw that and said okay here’s something

for us to try at the lab because we knew

this for Hertz was a was a a signature

that Bob Monroe got as he left his body

he would get this vibration of four


so that was one fact we had to work with

and we thought we would try to you know

encourage that four Hertz beat and if

your whole brain and nervous system was

oscillating at four Hertz you know maybe

that would be a way we didn’t know but

we were in a cut and try experimental

mode to see what happened so it worked

pretty well Dennis and I played with it

for another week or two by ourselves

because Bob was out of town so we had to

optimize it you know what’s the base

frequency was it four Hertz or four and

a half or you know three point you know

seven five or what and at what amplitude

do you play it a lot of other variables

that we we went through to try to

optimize the effect

the entraining brain waves and when Bob

came back we played him the the towns

and he was very impressed with it as

well and began to add some of his own

sounds to it which were mostly

relaxation sounds you know like surf

sounds that that kind of thing but but

the surf sounds actually weren’t real

surf they also had like four Hertz white

no white no it wails more like pink

noise pink noise is white noise with the

high the high end cutoff so it’s not

quite so jarring it’s it’s a little

softer sound so it was a pink noise

modulated to four Hertz and and actually

it had kind of a delta wave in there too

so that’s what we had been using before

we we found these binaural beats and

afterwards we had that original sound

with the binaural beat laid you know

into it that they were they were put

together in the same track so that

became hemi-sync and hemi-sync is a

signature technology of Monroe

laboratories Bob Monroe

I got a patent on that and it has

probably changed and modified many times

between then and now so it’s not

necessarily the same hemi-sync that

you’d listen to if you you know bought a

current tape from Monroe Institute but

that was the beginning anyway of

hemi-sync yeah I definitely suggest

anyone listening to the show right now

to check out a Albert Robert Monroe’s

work and his books and be hemi-sync if

they can just because I personally used

hemi-sync for about ten years just as I

was beginning my meditation phase and it

really helped quite a lot so getting the

history of that is very intriguing so

how did you move from working with mr.

Monroe to develop developing a theory of

everything how does a person do that

well being a physicist you know I’m a

scientist kind of through and through

and and as a physicist my my job is to

understand reality that’s what physics

is it’s you know how does the world work

so that’s what physicists do and that’s


my mindset was so once I understood that

reality was bigger than just as physical

reality and then I understood after

being with Bob that I could explore that

with some let’s say some regularity

in other words I could I could produce

altered states pretty precisely and go

to the same states and do the same

things in the same way and try to

eliminate all the variables that I could

and then change one variable and see

what difference it made you know so I

could do experiments in this space so I

began very early if probably after a

year or two at Bob Monroe’s early in the

process my job kind of in the group was

theory you know to understand what went

on how could you explain it what’s the

connection between physical reality in

this larger reality what is the larger

reality yeah where does it come from

what does it do why is it there

how do we relate to it you know etc etc

all the questions about trying to

understand what is it and how does it


so I continued with that for the next

roughly 35 years and from that was

starting in 1972 so in ninth in 2003 in

February I published the books my big

toe so it took me that long and that was

pretty continuous there’s not much time

that I was away from that you know doing

other things that pretty much worked on

it continuously for for that amount of


doing research experimenting

experiencing that sort of thing and it

was not until then that I actually

thought I had an idea about how it


so I wrote these books and the books

started out to be sort of an explanation

of the larger reality and consciousness

and that was more metaphysics and

philosophy than physics although I knew

that was the bigger picture and

everything else had to derive from that

but I really didn’t understand how that

might happen I just kind of I knew that

that was you know the way it had to go I

call it a big toe a big theory of

everything because it was the foundation

consciousness is the fundamental thing

and everything

Ellis’s derived thereof but then after

the books were published I realized that

the same logic that I used to describe

consciousness and how consciousness

worked and its parameters

described how physics worked as well

it’s the very same idea I didn’t know I

don’t know why it took me so long to get

that but it did I was probably a year or

so after the publication and it’s like

oh look this is why the double slit

experiment works the way it does and

this is why sees a constant and this is

why you know we have entanglement then

all of these big mysteries in physics

that you know where does mass come from

where does charge come from all of these

unknowns all of these hard problems just

disappeared it was clear that there was

a very nice logical derivation of all of

them and it all came from the same two

assumptions that really drove the theory

of consciousness and and the larger

reality so it was all very neat and

elegant and contained within just a few

ideas explained all of that so that’s

kind of how I ended up writing those

books it was just my it was just the way

I’m built I guess that I kept working on

trying to understand it until I finally

got somewhere just your your search for

answers and looking for truth yeah

pretty much and the thing that really

helped is that being a scientist I’m

kind of you know programmed if you will

to think logically to have a high level

of proof

you know requirement for proof if it you

know it has to make sense from all

angles you have to repeat it many times

and I don’t you know I don’t go there if

it isn’t I don’t go on that ground if it

isn’t solid so that helped me having

this attitude of go do the experiments

you know see see where the limits are

where do you run up against the wall in

in this process so that was that was it

so because I was a scientist and because

also I had spent you know

35 years studying consciousness I was

able to put it together I don’t think I

could have put it together if I had just

either one of those mindsets or either

one of those sets of experience it took

both the physics experience and mindset

and the experience and the larger

consciousness system otherwise I

wouldn’t have been able to pull it

together so let’s let’s break it down

for our listeners I mean it so there

there is we’re in a computer basically

and what there someone has pressed an on

button and it’s kind of running this

program am I am i close yeah you’re

close it’s not that we are in a computer

depends on who you define we as because

there’s we the body in this physical

reality in this physical universe and

then there’s we the consciousness and

those two things are not the same thing

so if we say we the consciousness then

we are we are not really in the computer

as far as in the in the in the

simulation it makes the physical reality

we’re in the the larger computer if you

will which is the larger consciousness

system consciousness itself is an

information field it’s an information

system and that would make sense if you

think of what is consciousness

it’s information it’s basically

information and communication that makes

up consciousness your awareness of your

reality has to do with the data that you

collect through your census if you’d had

no no sight no no sound no smell no

taste and no touch

then what would you reality be like well

your your reality would be you know

basically you’d be floating in the and

the void in a black dark void there

would be no reality just just the fact

that I am you you’d be aware that you

exist and nothing else would be there so

you can see that awareness consciousness

is information our reality is

information and our thoughts are also

information our you know our thoughts

carry information that’s that’s what

they do it’s a it’s a

way of our language carries information

are thinking carries information so an

information system describes

consciousness and then this

consciousness this larger consciousness

system creates a virtual reality called

our physical universe for us to

experience in and it has its own reasons

for doing that but that kind of maybe

straightens out a little bit what you

were saying so so then are we presumably

virtual reality characters in this sort

of virtual machine and then our

consciousness is the information we

would you even call it a sort of

magnifying lens or just information now

it’s a it’s a subset of the larger

consciousness system our consciousness

is a subset you know we’re a piece of

that larger consciousness system and it

you know our consciousness of course is

information processing memory you know

all of all of that experience we have

all of that stuff that defines of all of

the choices we’ve made all of the

experience we’ve had kind of define us

as who we are and and our uniqueness but

think of it in this with the same model

I’ll say the world of warcraft’ and the

world of warcraft say you you’re playing

an elf or the sims would be the same

sort of thing or you’re playing a

character but let’s say world of

warcraft you have an elf

now the elf is not conscious you are the


consciousness if you don’t give that elf

any direction if you don’t tell it what

to do it just stands there and does

nothing maybe it wobbles around a little

bit but it just it has no you know it

has no direction without you the player

now you the player are its consciousness

but there’s another point here to see

and that is the elf reality does not

contain you the consciousness the elfs

reality than the elves body and the

ruleset that defines world of warcraft

creates constraints on a data stream

that is passed to you the

so you’re sitting at your computer

receive a data stream and you interpret

that data stream as the World of

Warcraft world but you cannot be inside

the world of warcraft world you the

consciousness must be in a separate

reality frame outside of the virtual

reality in which you’re playing in other

words the elf and world of warcraft will

never find a building that has the

server in it that’s creating the world

of warcraft you say yeah the world of

warcraft the server that creates the

world of warcraft

can’t be a part of the world of warcraft

world it has to exist outside of that

world it has to exist as fredkin said in

other that’s just someplace else other

than the world of warcraft world and why

is that because a simulation can’t

create itself you can’t that’s like

third grade logic right a simulation

can’t create itself because before it

created itself it didn’t exist to create

itself you see that’s a pretty simple

idea there is there an intelligence

within this larger consciousness I mean

is it yes its consciousness it’s you

know we’re intelligent it’s intelligent

intelligence basically comes from

learning from your experience and this

is this larger consciousness system has

a more vast experience than we do we’re

just subsets of it and the subset never

contains all the information of the

superset so it’s a larger thing than we

are altogether but yes it is intelligent

it’s aware it’s conscious and it has a

you know it has a a mission and that is

to survive when you talk about

information systems you have you know

two different extreme states then you’re

suspended somewhere between them and

that is if every bit and the information

system is random then there is no

information there is no awareness there

is no conscious nothing there’s just

random bits there’s no structure there’s

no meaning there’s no content so content

requires structure it requires order if

you will it

requires pattern and that is how physics

defines the word called entropy high

entropy means randomness you have high

entropy you have a lot of randomness in

information system and you have low

entropy if you have a lot of content or

a lot of structure so entropy is a

matter is a measure of disorder more

disorder high entropy less less disorder

or more order and you have low entropy

so an information system and this is

just standard you know information

science and talking about now an

information system then can can be

described in terms of its entropy how

evolved it is how much information it

has as opposed to randomness so the

system is a is an aware evolving system

it’s changing you know as as we do it

we’re evolving it’s evolving and what it

has to do to maintain itself is it

always has to put forth effort in order

to not dissolve into randomness and

that’s something that takes effort

because if you don’t do anything if you

just sit and there’s no maintenance

there’s no effort then randomness

happens and you know entropy happens and

you start to disintegrate you start to

come apart dissolve your order begins to

go away so constant effort is needed and

what this system is doing it’s evolving

and it’s evolving toward more functional

information and lower states of entropy

and it’s it has to it has to keep

working now we’re pieces of it so that’s

what we’re doing – that’s the overall

dynamic here is that the whole system is

trying to lower its entropy or maintain

its entropy and lower its entropy it it

does that by its choices if it makes

good choices you know it has choices

we’re talking about an information

system that’s sharing information and

we’re pieces of it so it’s this

interaction between subsets of itself

and how it interacts requires choices


what to do and what to do with the

information you get and what to do about

what to send and and so on

if those choices are choices that help

build and and produce and create more

structure more information then that’s

on the path to evolution and if those

choices create more randomness and you

know tear things apart then that choice

is you know on the way toward e

evolution for the system and we are in

this physical reality as pieces of the

system put here or I should say plain

here in order to have a reality frame

with enough rules that we get good

feedback on the value of our choices

what are our choices doing you know what

kind of choices are they if there’s no

rules then there’s no way to assess what

it is you’re doing so we need we need

rules and once we have rules those rules

define a virtual reality I’m kind of

skipping around in the in the theory

here a little bit just try to get people

up to up to speed and there’s lots of

things I’ve left out okay but anyway

with that’s kind of you know it’s kind

of where we’re going so yes we’re in a

virtual reality yes we’re consciousness

consciousness can’t be in the same

reality as the virtual reality that it’s

plain and you can’t be in the same

reality as your elf you have to be in a

different reality than your elf so you

are peace of consciousness you are not

in this physical reality in other words

you’re your consciousness is not derived

from the physical reality so how does

freewill play into the aspect of growth

learning and the information system okay

well there’s a few things that that

information system needs to be conscious

and the the way we start is with a

system that it’s just awareness and it’s

not really conscious yet we could call

it primordial conscious if you like it’s

awareness and that awareness can do no

more than be aware that it’s in state

one or state two you know state a or

state B so it’s a and this is just an

assumption we start there that

there is such a Heath in such an entity

that can tell whether it’s in state

winter state – and we have to start

there it’s not a that’s not a flaw or an

assumption that kind of starts in the

middle I can we’ll talk about later

about the limits of knowledge and it

requires such a start anyway so here we

have this system and if the system can

distinguish between states one and state

two then a few things have just happened

one time has just been invented because

if now I’m in one and you know later I’m

in two then there’s a before and an

after state and then time is invented so

in order to even have a system that can

be aware of being in one state or

another you have to have time otherwise

it couldn’t change between one state or

another which means it really wouldn’t

be aware that there were two states it

would have to be so time is an integral

part of this existence without the time

you can’t be in state one and then stay

– there’s no before and after now the

thing evolves so this is a system and it

evolves and as it evolves remember it’s

it’s creating information if it goes to

randomness if it lose its idea of these

two steps then it’s back to randomness

there’s there’s nothing there so it

evolves and it gets lots of this state

that state the other states multiple

states lots of ones lots of lots of

two’s raisin bees and it can then put

those in a in patterns and you can make

patterns of patterns so we have an

evolution going on here with this with

this system but it gets limited after a

while so what it can do is just one

monolithic thing it’s just the thing and

it’s making patterns and things but

there’s it’s kind of giving its own

meaning I guess to those patterns and

it’s very limited so what it does is

what is natural to things that evolve

it’s the same thing our biological cells

did once it lowered entropy to the point

of its patterns and patterns of patterns

and so on information you know there’s


the state in that state you can think of

as ones and zeros in a computer then it

needs to interact and it has to interact

with a piece of itself so the thing in

our biology the cells split or multiple

one celled things got together to make a

many celled thing or cells split and

build up on any celled thing however you

want to look at that that’s the way that

you create now a whole new set of

novelty wear interactions and patterns

become you know much more extensive

you’ve just you’ve just added another

whole degree of freedom with that

because now we have communication but

the communication doesn’t mean anything

if there’s no free will if the two

things that are communicating can’t

communicate independently and freely

then there’s really no communication if

it’s just you talking to yourself and

you go hello me and me says hi how you

doing I’m doing fine but it’s all just

you playing both parts then you haven’t

done anything more than just be the one

thing you were you’re still that

monolithic thing so unless you get

unless you give that other entity free

will in other words it can make choices

on its own you don’t make its choices

for it it has the freedom to choose

between the available choices that it

has if there’s more than one way it can

react to you then it gets to choose

which one of those multiple ways it will

it will react what kind of data is it

going to share with you how will it

interpret the data you send it that has

to be free otherwise you’re still stuck

with one monolithic thing and you’re not

evolving so now we have free will so you

have to have time you have to have free

will and there’s one more thing you have

to have and that is you need a virtual

reality now a virtual reality I are

defined before is just a rule set you

know it you have information and if you

have a rule set you can create a virtual

reality based on those rules like the

world of warcraft is based on a rule set

that defines what the elf and all the

other characters and things can do

the elf cannot walk through a tree the

elf falls off a cliff you know it does

get hurt

they’ll stays underwater too long it

will drown it will die and so on it’s

because there’s a rule set that this

finds the constraints of exchanges of

interactions between things okay so what

rule sets required here it’s

communication you have to at least make

the rules that define a basic

communication protocols so that these

two these two entities these two pieces

of consciousness can talk to each other

can communicate pass data back and forth

so you need a you know what we would

call a language now this is not a spoken

language obviously but you need a the

protocols for communication so those are

the things we need this we need this

basic prototype of consciousness that is

has awareness time is awareness between

two states freewill is required so we

can interact with something other than

just itself so that has something unique

to interact to because when it does

there’s lots of novelty and lots of new

ways to construct and build and make

patterns so that’s in its path to

evolution and then you have to have a

virtual reality which is a rule set that

creates the ability to communicate so

that’s all these things are necessary

for consciousness if you take any of

those away then there is no

consciousness so consciousness exists

all these things get you know exist at

the same time they’re all logically

necessary for each other are they’re

more advanced less and entropy systems

that information systems that exist more

efficiently higher planes of existence

now I wouldn’t say more efficiently

there are lots of other virtual

realities our physical universe is not

the only virtual reality there are many

some some of them are have very loose

rule sets there’s no there’s no more

rule set than just the communication

protocols at that point the the virtual

reality is

like a you know a big chat room that has

let’s say a hundred thousand people in

chat room and there’s no other rules

other than you know how to communicate

that you can type and it gets displayed

that’s that’s the rule set well that

makes a very very loose very minimalist

rule set for virtual reality and enters

virtuality like ours that has a rule set

so let’s let’s say a minute just for a

minute how our reality is made our

reality was created not by planting a

program or planning every tree in rock

it wasn’t programmed it evolved so it

was given some you’ve got to take some

initial conditions and a rule set

now those initial conditions are at our

best guess at this time was a very a

very small ball of plasma and extremely

high energy and high pressure and that

plasma when the run button was hit that

plasma changed according to the rule set

so the initial conditions were set up

this plasma of various type and you hit

the Run button and and it starts to

change because of the pressure it

expands and as it expands it cools and

as it cools you get sun’s and then

planets and solar systems and then you

get an earth and then you get a cell

that evolves to be us sitting here

talking over Skype so that’s the that’s

the that’s how our physical universe is

created it’s created as a simulation it

is evolving and it continues to evolve

it isn’t programmed like World of

Warcraft so we have this this virtual

reality and it’s evolving and why did we

need it because if the point of this

this well on the backup one one more

step that I need to make all this

coherent and that is when you have a

social when you have a system of

individuated units of consciousness that

are communicating with each other and

you do this like I say in order to give

more more more degrees of freedom or

things that you can construct that way

then what you end up with is a social

system because it’s a lot of chunks of

consciousness interacting with each

other that’s the social system if you

take a social system how do you optimize

it what do you do to optimize your

social system what do you do to reduce

entropy as much as possible within this

social system since reducing entropy is

really the the goal here to keep this

thing going and alive well the answer to

that is by cooperation by working

together by co-op yeah cooperating

caring and I call that the the kind of

the love path if you will the love

direction and the opposite of that is

what I call the fear direction and the

fear would be is is a is all about self

and the love is all about other how do

you how do we optimize this altogether

is the is the love direction and how can

I get as much as I can for myself is

what we have in the fear direction so in

that fear direction you see if everyone

is out for themselves and there’s no

trust because it’s you know it’s based

on fear it’s all about you and me and I

need to have what I need and then when I

get it I need to keep it so nobody takes

it away from me and then because

something bigger stronger than me can

take it away from me I join up with

other units so that we together are well

have a kind of a mutual defense pact and

we’ll keep other entities from taking

our stuff away from this and of course

the other entities will form up their

own mutual defense packs and then these

two groups of entities can fight and

struggle with each other trying to get

each other’s stuff and and make sure

that nobody else gets their stuff and

see that starts to sound like us right

and I that’s the that’s the way we you

know that’s the that’s the way we’re

work here we’re basically fear-based

in this or it’s reality so you take

those two now the one that is

cooperative and each unit of it cares

about optimizing the whole that group

will eventually you know optimize what

they whatever they’ve got

all cooperating a way to build as much

as they can build in the other one it’ll

never get but so you know low and

entropy because there’s always somebody

carrying something down because somebody

else has something you want well then

you know they’ve built something up you

tear it down or you take it over you

build things up other people tear it

down it’s a constant struggle to and

competitive world in which it’s very

difficult to cooperate but so much

because if you you know cooperation to

be really effective requires trust and

if there’s no trust in a fear-based

world then there’s really it’s hard to

cooperate it’s hard to get together it’s

hard to build it’s hard to find

investors because it’s you know you

might lose your investment so so do

these do these separate would you call

them systems or are they just I mean how

would you define these two subsets and

do they do they move apart and then

together so the people or the entities

that kind of dwell around fear would

they kind of collect together and then

same with the ones that are around love

no it’s not that these it’s not that

these two various subsets were created

I’m at my description was just to show

or just to point out that we have an

entity it’s broken itself into pieces

it’s interacting and it’s doing this all

to reduce its entropy so it can stay

alive and exist right you see so then

how does it do that you see how does it

optimize itself to do that well the way

it does that is by making choices that

are cooperative that are supportive of

the of the whole end of end of each

other now the way that a that a certain

a social system the way that works is

that the individuals the way they

interact is by making choices it’s

whatever they do it’s a choice it’s an

intent and the intent then is followed

through by a choice

and if you make choices that move you

toward the love side that move you

toward the cooperative side about other

then you are part of the solution toward

lowering entropy if you make choices

that are all self focused and and based

on fear then you are moving the system

toward the evolution so that gives the

system now a goal what you do okay so

here it is now it knows what to do it

needs to to give its pieces experience

that helps them evolve toward love

because that’s how it survives so it

needs them to create a virtual reality

with more traction with more feedback

than this big chat room with a hundred

thousand things chatting in it you see

with no rules because that has very

little traction how do you know what’s

your effect is on anything now how does

and how do you know what you’re getting

is that just made up or is it true

there’s no traction there you see yes

you can pass information around but it’s

a really slow process of understanding

how to make choices such that the system

survives so you need a virtual reality

where you have a rule set a tight enough

rule set where the feedback from your

choices is pretty obvious you know what

what you are and have the choices you

make makes a difference and those

consequences are right there in your

face you deal with them so that’s the

kind of virtual reality that’s been

created with this set of initial

conditions and the rule set and you hit

the Run button and of course that rule

set is our physics it’s basically the

rules of how things can interact how

energy can be exchanged within this

virtual reality in this computation this

virtual reality is a simulation and

evolving simulation and it was created

to create experience where choices could

be made with feedback so our virtual

reality our physical universe is kind of

the fast track in consciousness

evolution because we have all these

choices but you you know if you look at

it yeah we’re still pretty fear-based

but we’ve got a long way to go and we’re

making progress but you know you start

at the beginning and you

your work on it and we are not the only

such we might call you know this virtual

reality you can call it you know an

entropy reduction trainer for

individuated units of consciousness

we’re not the only entropy reduction

trainer gone on there are others the

system wouldn’t put all its eggs in one

basket it would it would tweak

parameters and the physics in the rule

set a little and maybe the initial

conditions you need to get something

that’s stable and and and functional so

now we are we as consciousness are very

much like we as the as the player in

World of Warcraft consciousness doesn’t

exist in the physical virtual reality

the physical virtual reality we call our

physical universe just sets the

constraints on what you know what the

consciousness can experience through

that avatar through that beam just like

world of warcraft rule set sets the

constraints on what you can experience

with your elf your elf can only do

certain things act certain ways and you

know if it does good things that’s it

points go up and it goes up levels and

if it does bad things it goes down

levels and losses hit points so there’s

a there’s a structure a rule set set and

and that gives us choice and results of

choices so here we are chunks of

consciousness we are playing an avatar a

character which just like the elf it’s

just a computed character our body and

this physical reality is just the

computations of a simulation just like

World of Warcraft is you say so it’s the

same sort of thing so we’re

consciousness and we’re playing we’re

playing this game it’s a it’s an

immersive game we actually we talk about

ourselves as an individual unit of

consciousness that’s kind of the

accumulator if you will that’s the

that’s the the larger us and a piece of

that is immersed in this game is a

player in this game so your your body’s

just like the elf it’s a it’s a computed

entity and you get a data stream from

the server which is in the low

consciousness system outside the

physical reality and the data stream is

constrained by the constraints of the

rule set of that virtual reality so that

means that if somebody sneaks up behind

you you’re your avatar and hits you over

the head with a lead pipe and causes

brain damage what that is is it it

increases the constraints on that


now that character may be slurs its

words and drags its left foot because of

the brain damage you say so

it’s just increased the constraints and

you can also decrease constraints if you

do things that enable you to do more see

bigger pictures have a larger decision

space so that’s kind of the basic nature

of you know how reality works and the

neat thing about it is that since I

published this in 2003 it was me and

maybe two or three other people on the

planet who saw this reality as you know

being best modeled as a virtual reality

and now there’s a lot of physicists at

all the best institutions that think

virtual reality is the way of the future

because the experiments that physicists

do just keep saying that you know this

reality is virtual that reality is

informational physicists no longer look

at electrons as chunks of matter with

charge they look at electron as a point

with the attribute of charge and the

attribute of mass well how would we

model an electron in a computer we

didn’t need model it as a point with the

attribute of charge and you attribute of

mass so that’s we’re moving that way

science is going that way physics is

going that way so virtual reality seems

to be what the experiments and it

started in early 1900s the double slit

experiment was the first one that

basically pointed in that direction and

and many many others have I don’t go by

a month that I don’t see another paper

published in some refereed physics

journal explaining that virtual reality

is the only way to explain this

experiment so it’s it’s a it’s a coming

thing in physics that makes so much

sense I’m I’m quite surprised that I

haven’t heard this before or heard the


sooner how do how would deities or

archetypes like beings like Christ and

and god type figures play into this

information system okay well you’ve

named several different kinds of things

there yeah you know archetypes let’s

talk about archetypes as they were

defined by Carl Jung archetypes as he

defined them were kind of ideas ways of

thinking ways of being that are common

to a group of individuals and that group

might be a culture you know all the

people in this culture kind of think and

see the world this way and or it could

be species like humans there are

archetypes there’s a human archetypes

there’s cultural archetypes and and so

on he worked that down but he didn’t

actually see the bigger picture of the

archetypes or where they come from but

the archetypes are created out of I can

say group consciousness if you if you

will it’s a shared shared thoughts all

the individuated units of consciousness

are netted okay that’s what

consciousness does it communicates and

intent is the is the is the motive force

intent is is what you know makes that

communication go it’s what moves data so

all the individual units of countries

are all in a big net just like the world

you know the World Wide Web

all those web pages are on a big net but

you have to have an intent to go click

on one of them to get that information

if you don’t have that intent then you

don’t see that webpage but if you if you

have an intent to see that information

then you click on it you get that

information and you can share

information with it so it’s like that

we’re all connected but it doesn’t it’s

not like the World Wide Web and that you

don’t really have to click all you have

to do is have a connection an intention

that kind of includes people in your

group and then you you’re sharing

information now we see that say at the

bottom and most simple level is a mob

you take a mob and you have 20 people in

a mob that want to lynch somebody and


find that the psychology that mob is at

a lower level than the psychology of any

of the individuals so the mob itself

will act worse than any of the

individuals would by themselves why

because they’re sharing their trading

all this information around and they’re

you know feeding each other’s frenzy if

you will each other’s fear each other’s

anxiety to each other’s hate or whatever

it is so because of that mutual

reinforcement it gets worse and worse

you do the same thing if you’re in a you

know if you’re in with a bunch of people

who are full of love and caring and

respect and all that it kind of pulls

you up some you act a little better when

you’re around those people brain of

course you walk away from those people

and you’re still just yourself because

you you don’t you know you haven’t

learned anything you have to learn it at

the bean level and that’s another

concept we have an intellectual level on

a bean level your bean level is the core

of what’s really you your intellectual

level is it’s what you think in other

words let’s say we’re talking about

being kind if you if you are kind

because you think it’s a good idea and

you should be that’s acting kind but if

you’re kind at the bean level you just

are kind you said you don’t have to

think about it you don’t have to say

well should I help that person well I

probably should because it would it

would be nice to do that and that’s an

intellectual decision that’s acting kind

but if you see a person he’s helping you

just help them you don’t think about it

it’s just the way you are

you see that’s that’s kindness at the

bean level so we we work in these two

you know at these two different levels

so now I’m kind of have a bigger picture

right so we started with the with the

assumption of the thing that just it was

aware of States and we got time and with

time you know we yeah we have missed

information exchange versus the virtual

reality we also had to break apart so

that it would be able to create more

structure with itself and it just did

that because that’s what evolution does

it finds things at work and then once it

finds that thing it works it works with

it and if it finds things that don’t

work they just disappear so it did that

so we have consciousness now

consciousness has free will

there’s time and it’s aware and it’s an

information system because all these

this in that states are ones and zeros

it learns to communicate which is

basically what patterns are see a

pattern itself is a communication if I

make a pattern and I say up down up down

up down you know what the next one’s

going to be it’s going to be enough say

how did you know that because there’s

information in the pattern so the


patterns are information and so this is

our system and because it needed to

survive it needed the lower entropy it’s

a social system and the way to do that

is toward cooperation love and caring so

that’s the way the choices and

interactions had to go the big ten

thousand a hundred thousand people in

the chatroom wasn’t very effective so it

needed to make a virtual reality that

had more rules than just communication

protocols and it had to be one that it

gave good feedback from you know by by

having enough rules that you’ve got

consequences for your actions and you

can actually see the results of them so

that’s kind of the big picture pulled it

all together and and here we are as a I

call it a free will awareness unit which

is the part of the individual unit of

consciousness that is immersed in this

game and just like you might be immersed

in playing World of Warcraft and then

because it takes a while to change at

the bean level you see growth real

entropy reduction of the system is when

consciousness reduces his entropy it

becomes a different thing it changes

itself at the bean level not just

becomes aware of something at the

intellectual level so we have to grow up

we have to move toward becoming love and

cooperation and caring as opposed to

it’s all about me gimme gimme gimme so

this process goes on and the whole thing

evolves as we evolve we evolve

individually but as we do it evolves

because we’re we’re it we’re part of it

you see so that’s the that’s kind of the

dynamics and now we’ve defined a whole

lot of

things we’ve defined morality

something’s good if it leads toward the

individual in the system lowering its

entropy something’s bad if it you know

leads the individual and therefore the

the whole into increasing its entropy

that’s now we have a morality we

understand love and we can give it a

technical definition love is the nature

of a low entropy consciousness that’s

what love is we have defined the our

physical reality why is it how does it


that it’s virtual that it’s

computational it’s a simulation and it’s

evolving we’ve defined ourselves and our

relationship to it we’re players in a

virtual reality game and we’re here to

make choices to help ourselves evolve

toward lower entropy States so that kind

of pulls now a whole lot of things

together and because this simulation is

that that is our physical reality is not

a deterministic simulation it’s a

probabilistic simulation deterministic

simulations are just way too much

computation they’re not efficient it’s

much better if you use the computations

to develop probability distributions and

then run your simulations from those

probability distributions that’s just a

a more efficient process because you

have the rule set the system has its the

system’s rule set it knows all the rule

sets so it can do the the calculations

to produce the probability distributions

that describe the way you know action

unfolds here in terms of probability are

there are there rule sets that can

purposely alter or hinder the growth of

certain subsets of systems for example

could could my choices be limited

because I don’t have money how how does

how does the macro system assure that

growth within the system itself occurs

okay your choices are not limited

because you don’t have money

your choices are different because you

don’t have money you say it does

limit your choices it’s the choices are

different now remember the the goal here

is to lower your entropy not to see how

much you know money you can collect or

how much beer you can drink it’s to

lower your entropy it’s to grow up and

all the choices you make be they rich or

poor give you opportunities and

challenges to grow up so you have is

just as rich and environment and you

know to in growing up as rich or poor or

you know anything else any other kind of

dichotomy that you can come up with so

the choices are everywhere and richer

pores just different choices not better

or worse choices hmm very very

interesting and it actually makes sense

and it it really does it fits so how

does how does synchronicity and

metaphysics like picking up on energy

and perceiving information before it’s

available how does all of this stuff

other stuff kind of working okay well

one of the interesting things about this

is that what’s normally seen as

paranormal turns out to just be normal

once you have a bigger picture

paranormal means outside of normal you

know it can’t be explained by normal

normal understanding so the paranormal

is just normal because in the bigger

picture we have we can explain several

of those those things

let’s see I’ll start with your your one

about information part of the structure

in creating this virtual reality and

maintaining it requires a couple of

databases and one of the databases is

called the future probable database and

the future probable database is a

database of all the things that could

happen in the next Delta T okay the next

Delta P means the next little increment

of time okay we’re in a we’re in a

simulation so time is the outer loop

time jumps up one increment and then you

recalculate everything that’s now in

that time and of course choices are made

we have

free will choices so choices are made in

the next delta t then you know those

choices get you know happen so that’s

the future

probable database everything that could

possibly happen and the probability that

it might happen so you may have ten

choices you may have a decision space

and there’s ten different things that

you could choose way that you could go

here and there’s a probability based on

your past performance and you know who

you are and how you’ve done you have a

probability of which one you’ll choose

that means that the system itself it can

can kind of keep current on what’s gonna

happen next so it can be ready because

it’s got a lot of data streams to

service and it doesn’t want to wait and

get surprised that it works on a

probability basis so that it can do

probably ninety 98 percent of its work

just based on probability and and then

around the edges you know we do things

that that aren’t probable we can

sometimes just do strange things that

our freewill abel’s us to do and then

the system basically has to recalculate

that effect forward rebuilding the new

probable thread along that that action

and all the things that interacts with

so that’s one database and then we have

our history database and our history

database is I get into two parts it’s

just one database but there’s two ways

of looking at it two sections to it

there’s everything that could have

happened and the probability that it

would have happened okay so now that’s

just that future probable database as it

moves through the present which is where

all the choices are made that’s where

all the action is is in the present as

it moves through the president of the

past you end up with it now is a history

database and instead of everything that

could happen and probability it does

it’s everything that could have happened

and the probability that it would have

okay now there’s a thread one thread

that runs through that past database

that is our actual history that’s what

we actually did okay and that’s our

history thread

now those databases are available to us

because we are consciousness yes we are

immersed in this in this virtual reality

game but we’re still consciousness and

as consciousness we can do everything

that consciousness can do we can

communicate we can you know we pass

information between other units of

consciousness so it’s it’s it’s in the

interest of the system for us to evolve

exactly because our evolution is its

evolution you say so the system wants us

to evolve and it gives us the kind of

the tools to do that in the in the

virtual reality there’s one other point

I haven’t made yet and that is one of

the feedbacks systems that we have in

this virtual reality is that we can

modify the probability in the future

probable database with our intent so

with a focused and clear intent we can

modify that you know over those 10

things we might choose we can kind of

raise the probability of of what happens

and because it’s not just our choice

that that thing may be affected by a lot

of other people who are also you know

connected to that particular choice and

we can raise or lower the the

probability of that happening with our

intent so that’s why you have people who

are very positive often live in very

positive circumstances things just kind

of happen for them and you have people

that are always oh woe is me

you know life sucks other never works

out and they do indeed live a life where

everything sucks and things just don’t

work out for them because they are

biasing probability to give them that

kind of of life what you fear tends to

your fear if you’re a fearful you know a

fearful person the things that you fear

you tend to raise the probability of

those things happening because of your

fear because that’s energy being put

into that to that outcome is the outcome

in your fear so anyway that that answers

then a whole lot of a lot of questions

of how people can you know use their

intent to to modify the nature of things

like that that

we’ll explain the placebo effect how is

it that what you tell a person about the

medicine they’re taking and about their

illness can actually affect the state of

that illness so you give person a a pill

you know with sawdust in it and you tell

them it’s a wonderful new medicine and

it’s going to make their kidney problem

go away it’s made everybody else’s

kidney problem go away and it’s really

going to be great and you’ll find out

that even though they’ve had no medicine

whatsoever about 35% of them their

kidney problem you know goes away it

helps compared to a control group that

aren’t told anything they’re just given

the sawdust and said here eat this you

see so the the control group should have

as many just random events coming and

going as the other group but we find a

statistical significance that that the

placebo effect is a real effect indeed

placebo effect is law you can’t sell a

drug unless you can you can beat the

placebo effects – there’s a paranormal

phenomena that’s a part of our legal

system so anyway we go back to these

other things so you can get into these

databases if you use your intent as a

query and get information out of it for

about the probable future again it’s

only probable and you can get

information out of the database that’s

historical including all the things that

could have happened but didn’t as well

as the things that did happen and all

the information is there when I say all

the information I don’t mean like

information you’re used to in a book I

mean every think of a character think of

yourself in the history that’s that’s

being piled up there for your choices it

would be all of your feelings all of

your attitudes all of your thoughts all

of your emotions it’s everything about

you because all of this is part of the

information system you see so it’s a

complete description of the event

including a description of you and your

moods and what you’re you know being

level is doing and what your

intellectual level is doing and all of

your intents and feelings and all the

rest of it goes so it’s not just a

record of what happened and when it

happened it’s the full it’s the full

record so we can get around in those

those things

now what about people who have

precognitive dreams it’s one of the

things you mentioned well that’s just

getting into that database and seeing

what is possible and what is probable

and if your intent is focused you can do

a you know you can go in there with

precision and get information if you’re

intentional foggy you get you know real

foggy results it’s like in Google Google

Google love and you get millions of

returns you know and a lot of its

garbage same with a sloppy intent in the

databases so you need precision and

often you get something that’s not quite

what you wanted but close and then you

have to you have to modify your query to

make it more specific and so it’s the

same kind of process that you need to go

through so what about mental healing

well that’s changing the probability of

a person’s illness if you heal them with

your mind that’s not you know these

things are really particularly hard

anybody can learn to do them with a

little practice what are some of those

other things you mentioned synchronicity

we have synchronicity because as you

said our success is the system success

so if you are a person who is aware then

the system can feed you nudges can give

you information can kind of help things

happen to give you the challenge or the

information that you just happen to need

so if you’re such a person and you walk

into a bookstore suddenly your attention

is is riveted on a particular book and

or it’s it’s just like the book jumped

out of the shelf into your hands sort of

thing you know you just walked over and

grabbed that book for some reason it was

just one book among a whole lot and you

don’t know what that reason is but you

just did it and it turns out it’s

something that’s really important and

information you really needed to have

those kinds of ents are called you know

synchronicity when they happen they’re

synchronous events that things that just

happen that that everything off of them

happened to you you realize they’re not

random because they have specific

significant meaning to you it’s not just

a random event that well yeah you know I

walk over and grab books out of

libraries and half the time there you

the other half the time you know they’re

okay but you know that would just be

randomness but when you live in a world

with their synchronicity it happens to

you daily and all the time and you

realize that it can’t be random because

it’s too one-sided to be random so

that’s where synchronicity comes from

the system wants you to want you to

succeed and can nudge you to go on a

particularly path that would be good and

challenging you to grow in ways that you

need to grow so we have that but now

it’s not going to force anything because

there’s freewill and it cannot interfere

with your freewill so a nudge is all

you’re gonna get and if you won’t if you

won’t accept that data if you can’t use

it and can’t process it then you won’t

get it so there are some people that

just can’t be nudged because they just

blow it off oh I have to go over and

grab that book well that’s stupid why

would I want to grab that book and they

turn around go the other way right

because they just can’t process that

data and those are the people that have

never had a synchronous event they’ve

never had a precognitive dream they’ve

never heard someone else talk in their

mind you know telepathically and they

don’t have these kinds of experiences

because they can’t use them they can’t

process them so Wow Wow so how would we

use information that perhaps causes us

problems for our benefit I’m really just

I’m absorbing everything that you’ve

been saying and it’s it really is a lot

of information huh then we have just

barely scratched the surface how can we

learn from the things that present us

problems I mean if if the system really

does want me to succeed wouldn’t it be

feeding me these sort of success stories

you know on a consistent basis or is

there also a learning mechanism and

evolution mechanism involved well yes

you have to you have to learn the system

is not trying to lead the witness you

know when it does the synchronicity it’s

trying to lead you into making choices

that you otherwise wouldn’t have made

now it’s interfering with your free will

you can’t grow up if it’s not really

your choice you say you have to make it

has to be your own choice made out of

your own bean level out of the out of

the core of you this is what you’re like

this is the choice you make and then you

get consequences now it can it can kind

of give you some information you gotta

point you in a direction but you have to

actually use the information and go in

the direction you know you have to be

able to process the data and use it so

if there’s something you know if there’s

something going on in your life that is

causing pain and dysfunction then that

is a good sign that what you’re doing

and the choices you’re making

are suboptimal that they’re probably

fear-based and this pain is a challenge

for you to to be different not just to

act different but to be different so the

the pain that we get in our life and the

circumstances that we see is maybe not

being good for us all offer us

opportunity to make better choices you

see first we have to take responsibility

for all the choices we make and most of

us don’t take responsibility for our

choices for instance somebody says

something that makes you angry

somebody slighted you or said something

you know real negative about you and and

it makes you angry so you say that

person made me angry it’s not true you

chose to be angry that person created a

situation where you had choices and you

chose to be angry so you have to take

responsibility for who you are and what

you are and not blame it on other people

or situations or I was born poor or I

was born blind or you know whatever it

might be you have you have certain

choices and a decision space is

basically all those choices you have and

somebody might say well I don’t have the

choice to be nice because that’s just

not the way I am somebody says something

nasty to me I get angry well you do have

the choices you just aren’t choosing

those joy

you say you’re not you may not even be

aware of those choices

sometimes you’re just reacting out of

your fear well you if you find that fear

and get rid of it now you have more

choices you live in a larger reality you

have a bigger decision space and you are

evolving so all of those all of our

dysfunction tends to come back and bite

us in terms of unpleasant situations

that we’re in we create most of the pain

in our lives our selves because of our

choices and we are a product of those

choices so it’s not only our choice just

now in the moment it’s our history of

choices you see creates situations that

that we are in so if if I make a

fear-based choice is is it accurate to

say that that it that same information

would kind of loop back so that I could

learn it again so that I could make the

love based choice well it’s like this

there’s no free lunch you only can grow

up if you if you make the effort to do

it if you make a bad choice then you

just haven’t learned that lesson there

was an opportunity to make a better

choice and you missed that opportunity

well what happens is you get to try

again and try again

and try again and you just get to keep

trying again with different kinds of

choices and different sorts of scenarios

and situations until you grow up and if

that takes you know a long long time

then it’s just gonna be a slow process

of growing up so it’s not like well I’ve

been you know I’ve been working on this

particular lesson for a long time you

know just graduate me to the next level

that doesn’t happen

you have to the only way you get to the

next level is to grow up now another

point we could make here is that I said

that there was a free-will awareness

unit that was immersed in this virtual

reality and a kind of a larger part of

that and that’s just a piece of a larger

individuated unit of consciousness

that’s kind of the accumulator of all

the experience because this learning is

is difficult it takes a long time to

change yourself at the bean level and

grow up you have to you have to

cumulate that over a lot of different

experience packets because what happens

is that we get we we ended up painting

ourselves into a corner by the time

we’re we’re old we have come to believe

that we know almost everything we’ve

been there and done that and we have

beliefs we have fears and we’re not

giving them up you know they’re ours and

that’s just the way we are well we kind

of get stuck then we’re painting

ourselves in a corner where we’re no

longer growing being becoming you know

growing up we’re stopped so the thing to

do then is you have to let that go and

have another experience packet and some

people then would call that

reincarnation so you have all these

various experience packets and it’s a

cumulative process to grow up it’s just

not reasonable that you’re going to grow

up from where we start to a being of

love in one experience packet won’t

happen it’s not not going to happen so

there are multiple and it’s the same way

in world of warcraft you know that that

Elfa yours probably gets killed three or

four times every night that you play the

game because it’s just the way they it’s

just the way the game is right and it

you what do you do you go to the

graveyard and you know how do we win the


is that I mean is that the goal winning

the game we know we don’t win the game

it’s the process that’s important not

the not the end goal what’s the growing

up that’s the important you don’t win

the game you just get better and better

at playing the game to where you don’t

need pain to hit you between the eyes

with the two before to get your

attention to grow up your life becomes

full of joy and satisfaction because now

you can grow up without the pain you

know you have kind of past that that

part so it’s just getting you know we

just keep growing up the things about

you know entropy is much like infinity

in that sense is that you don’t get to

zero entropy you can only get asymptotic

toward it in other words you can only

approach it but you never get there you

can never actually get to infinity

infinity is just an abstract concept

it’s not something that is real

can exist this real you can just

approach it you can get bigger and

bigger but you can ever actually get to

infinity it’s impossible thing so the

end is not fixed it’s not like you get

to a certain point in bingo you win and

you’re done and you’ve won the game it’s

a it’s a process that goes on because it

says any it’s evolution

remember the larger consciousness system

is not a fixed thing it’s evolving it’s

changing it’s becoming it’s different

you know today than it was yesterday and

we are evolving and changing this whole

thing is a dynamic process evolution

doesn’t quit

evolution well as long as there are

choices to be made then evolution will

keep on turning it’ll keep trying things

and the things that work will will you

know go on and the things that don’t

work will die out and that’s what it

does and in this virtual reality there’s

tons of choices and ways to go and

unexplored paths and ways of being and

relating that we haven’t explored yet so

evolution is open-ended and so is our

existence but the good news is it’s not

always tough and it’s not always full of

pain and it’s not always stressful it

gets to be a lot of fun and and kind of

a joyous trip once you get to a certain

level of evolution you know the games

not just about you it’s about everybody

then you become helpful and cooperative

and help other people learn and grow and

give them encouragement and a good

example so there’s always something to

do some way to be useful and productive

in this system it’s not like we’re all

cooperating to build a house and when

the house is done it’s done then we’re

out of work this house will never get

done because it’s about us growing up

growing up so a slow process and I

should say the system is not infinite

and it’s not perfect it’s a real system

which means it can’t be infinite because

infinite systems can’t be real and it’s

not a perfect system it’s just a system

that’s evolving and it has rules and

structure and sometimes these rules get

violated and sometimes by

nations get dealt with and sometimes

they get away with it it’s just you know

it’s a it’s a real system it’s a good

system and it works well it’s very

efficient but it’s not you’re you are an

experimenter I’m sorry to interrupt but

you mean you experiment so have you ever

been able to recreate a situation where

there is a type of glitch or that you

can cause something to be affected with

say your mind or maybe further than that

yeah you can you can you can cause

things to happen with your mind because

you can modify the future probability so

mine can affect what happens that’s we

we all do that in some ways that’s why

the reality that we’re in it’s a reality

that we see you know just look at you

know look at the news watch the TV go

out and walk around and if you you know

what you see is the way it is because of

the way we are it’s a very accurate

representation of the quality of

humanity our average quality is this

basically represents the average stuff

going on out there so if you look at you

know that that terrible government that

bad dictator that you know terrible

money system and all the things that

people you know complain most about that

that’s the problem well the reason

that’s that way is because we are the

way we are you see we create this

reality it’s our feedback it’s our

intense it’s the way we interact with

each other

so what you see is who we are and the

best way to fix it is to grow up

individually because then that helps you

know that you grow up and you become a

you become a light to others and help

others grow up and that’s how you fix it

if you decide well I can fix the system

I’ll get rid of that nasty dictator and

put in somebody better that maybe

civilizing and it may make things better

for a while but what you’re doing is

treating symptoms not fixing the problem

and just like our our medicine today is

mostly symptomatic medicine we don’t you

know our doctors often aren’t treating

core problems they’re not treating

causes they’re awfully often treating


you see they just give us something to

make us feel better make the symptoms go

away while the body actually does its

own healing that’s our typical medicine

so we fixed that money system we fixed

that dictator and we’ve done a

symptomatic relief which might make

everybody breathe easier and give us

more time to agitate and and meditate

but basically we’ve just changed a

simply fixed the symptom and that

symptom will reassert itself

it won’t stay fixed unless we change

because it that symptoms there because

it reflects us there was there was a

there was a scene in the matrix where I

guess it was mr. Smith and he was it was

when a Morpheus was was kind of captured

by the agents of the matrix and mr.

Smith is talking to Morpheus and he says

that the matrix was the way it was

because because humans needed the the

the suffering aspect of it to learn that

the the matrix had once been a sort of

utopia but humans had rejected it

because it didn’t work for their

learning right well wouldn’t so much

they’re learning they weren’t good

batteries remember they were using the

humans as batteries to power their

system right and that’s what the humans

were they were actually all of them

little full take cells providing power

and the humans didn’t do well if they

didn’t have the if they didn’t have the

struggle they they weren’t good

batteries then because they all just

kind of you know they weren’t challenged

didn’t mr. Monroe find out that we this

was a sort of battery type system I I

think it was in ultimate journey where

he I think in his journal it said that

he was pretty depressed after he found

out and he stopped projecting for a

while that was the thing about Lucius

you’re talking about

yes yeah yeah I remember when Bob wrote

that because he was discussing it with

when he wrote that he said you know I’ve

been out and here’s here’s the stuff I

found he was he was telling us about it

and I didn’t have any sense that he was

really depressed that he seemed he

seemed to be just just fine but it was a

it was a big thing for him and you have

to you have to realize that what you get

you’re getting the datastream when

you’re in out-of-body state it’s just

like being here you’re in a different

virtual reality okay it’s not the same

physical universe richer but a different

works reality you’re still getting a

data stream and you still have to

interpret that data stream based on your

own history based on your own experience

your your own data your own data set

your own an experience data I guess

would be a good thing to say so that was

Bob’s interpretation of what was going

on and if you just take it literally

it’s it says something that that sounds

a little uh you know sci-fi ish and yes

the you know where the were the

providers of lush for some other things

that they eat but that’s just a metaphor

but I’ve got you we get metaphors when

we’re out there we get we get

information and then we have to

interpret them that was Bob’s

interpretation and you can you can read

that metaphor a little differently in

that what we need to do and what people

are supposed to be doing is becoming

loved making these choices meeting the

challenges and that is what energizes

the whole system that’s what makes the

system work that’s the you know that’s

the fuel that keeps the information

system alive if you will is the fact

that we are lowering entropy so the fuel

is us lowering entropy and if you make

that too loose you can kind of see where

the where the metaphor is going it’s not

quite the the same as if you take it


so that’s really what was what was

happening there one other question you

said well what about spirits and gods

and and that kind of thing and and so I

would say that the larger consciousness

system they

and becomes what theologians talk about

right Theo is about God right and the

larger consciousness system is our


it’s our Creator we are subsets of it so

you might say we’re made in its image it

has all the data so you might say it’s

omniscient although that’s not really

true there’s things going on that it

really doesn’t know about because it

only knows like we do with intent and if

it’s intent isn’t there then it’s not

paying attention it how it is it is

trying to help us succeed because our

success is its success so we get

synchronicity and other such things so

there’s a lot of characteristics there

that sound pretty similar to what

various you know religions might say

about about God in fact I was I was in a

talk and at the end two theologians came

up I was doing this at the Atlanta

church and in Atlanta and two

theologians came up and I asked them I

said will tell me the attributes of God

as you understand that concept just what

are the attributes and they thought

about that for a while between the two

of them they listed the kind of a bunch

of things and all of the things they

listed were were not things that had to

do with creed and Dogma and ritual and

that kind of stuff it was all they were

this was a unity church so they were a

little more or I should say a little

less dogmatic and many other religions

might have been but when they were done

with their list all of the things they

said were attributes of the larger

consciousness system you say so that

then becomes becomes the you know that

is our our Creator that’s where we come

from that’s us we are consciousness just

like it is consciousness we’re subsets

of it so it’s not perfect it’s not

infinite and that makes it a little

different than most people’s ideas of

God there is no ending it’s the

evolving its in the state of becoming

but that’s another thing when it’s a big

when it’s a really a big cow then it has

to answer questions in theology as well

as physics so that that answers you know

questions of theology and if you look at

that it makes it easy to see what’s the

what’s the dogma what’s the nonsense you

know what’s the the stuff that’s that’s

been added by the people over the years

and what’s the real core concepts okay

and then you can kind of look at the at

the theology we have now and it

separates out very nicely as to what’s

significant and what isn’t so that’s

another aspect of it mr. Campbell you

are one of the smartest people I’ve

talked to in my life

hands down this is incredible

information and I I really really it has

kind of connected a lot of dots for me

that in my own thinking that I kind of

had in my mind anyway and it completes a

sort of puzzle its eloquent yeah I’ve

heard that a lot but one of the things

that that’s interesting is I gone a lot

of places and given Thaksin and most of

the time I’ll have somebody come up to

me and they’ll say you know are you a

are you a Tibetan Buddhist because I’ve

studied Tibetan Buddhism for the last 15

years and what you’re talking about is

right on you know that’s Tibetan

Buddhism and somebody else will come up

and say I’ve been studying the or what

is that there’s a Christian Gnostics

they tell me the same thing and then

there’s the other other isms and things

you know and I’ve probably had dozens of

these things that I’m just like you know

and it’s it’s it’s a whole lot like this

and that and that’s the way it is when

you basically have a bigger picture you

find there’s lots and lots of people who

have had pieces of that bigger picture

and they all just kind of dovetail very

nicely together and suddenly you can see

the connections between them all and see

how it all fits into one

you know it’s a one bigger picture

usually that’s that’s kind of that’s

very neat and what’s doubly neat about

it is that that same bigger picture that

solves all this theology and metaphysics

and paranormal and all that also does

better physics it also is is kind of the

future in physics so it explains things

that physics can explain now that’s

that’s the neat thing if it were just

metaphysics then we have this tendency

to say where we got science on one hand

and we got this other touchy-feely stuff

on the other hand but the two really

aren’t connected actually they’re

antagonistic with each other but that’s

not the case in the bigger picture you

derive all of it it turns out that hard

science physics chemistry that’s just a

subset of of the of this this reality

this larger physical what we call it the

the larger reality system that’s our

physical universe

it’s just that science is deals with

those things in this universe that have

low uncertainty so where there where

there’s interactions in this rule set

that are a very low uncertainty that’s

hard science where you have more

uncertainty that’s soft science like

medicine and psychology and economics

and sociology those are all soft

Sciences and they don’t deal in

objective facts they deal in statistics

because they have variables that can’t

be isolated you say you deal with people

you deal with a lot of uncertainty and

they are the soft sciences because they

have more uncertainty and then you get

into things like metaphysics and that

seems to have even more uncertainty so

these are just various parts of this

system that you can that you can look at

and and we kind of divide them up by how

much uncertainty comes with them because

the ones that have very little

uncertainty they’re easier to deal with

so we do those first that’s science kind

of started out dealing just with those

things and scientists the hard

scientists even have a hard time calling

things like economics and you know

sociology science but they are

just a science that works with the

subjective as well as the objective and

you work with subjective science with

statistics and metaphysics isn’t any

different so when I’m doing research in

the larger consciousness system from

then it the idea was like from an

out-of-body State well it’s the same

thing this is subjective science and the

way you do real science with that is is

with statistics you have to do things

over and over again and see what you

what changes when you change you know

the variables you can control do you

think do you think that’s why mr. Monroe

is so good at kind of chronicling

objectively his experience is it he was

just he was a very good navigator okay

he was and and he was he did a you know

he was more of an engineer by

personality now I don’t think he really

was an engineer he was he was a

businessman this is his forte he was in

radio before he was in cable business he

was a pilot small planes so he thought

though he had the personality of an

engineer in other words things had to

make sense to him he had to be logical

he needed to see the causal chain or he

wasn’t going to accept it that was just

his personality so when he wrote his

books he had the you know instead of

trying to interpret it all for his

audience of what he thought a tall man

he most of the time just wrote down

exactly what it was the experience it

was like a diary

you know here’s what I experienced I

experienced these things I did this and

then this happened and that happened and

you know the next day I did something

else so he doesn’t try to tell us how to

think about it and what to make of it he

just tells us what happened of course

what he tells us happened is his own

interpretation of the of the metaphors

that he gets in the data stream from

that virtual reality but still it’s it’s

honest it’s a very straightforward and

that’s something we hadn’t had before

before when you read books about astral

projection and that sort of thing

there was so much

oh you know disjointed theory in it that

really didn’t make sense they were

trying to make their best guess of you

know what it was and what it all meant

but they were it was mostly coming out

of their own beliefs and their own

limitations so it made it a lot harder

to to read and to get something out of

where’s Bob’s it’s just straightforward

and he was a good reporter in that he

didn’t he didn’t color it he just stated

it and that’s why it that’s why it’s

endured so just just cloak to clothes

that we’re running out of time here but

what so then what is your interpretation

of of what he was experiencing and and

spoiler spoiler alert for anyone who

hasn’t read the books the there was he

was collecting himself it seemed to exit

the earth life system I mean is that if

that analysis correct yes you might say

that that is the way it was going on

that was his interpretation it really

shouldn’t be taken literally it wasn’t

it wasn’t a literal thing the

information that he was getting is that

he he was an individual unit of

consciousness that had the kind of the

collection or the you know learning has

to be cumulative he was the accumulator

and he was accumulating his own

experiences so it’s like he was the free

will awareness unit that’s a subset of

this individuated unit of conscious

that’s the cumulate er of all the

experience packets you might have a free

will where in this unit maybe you know

let’s say that’s that’s you and your

your individual unit of conscious of

that Oversoul higher self or something

like that it may have another

incarnation going on at the same time

it’s not necessarily just one at a time

although that’s typical it may have

several so it’s accumulating all this

information and he is feeding it so he

was accumulating himself if you will and

that was to grow up to become loved to

evolve in the positive direction so if

you look at it like that

that’s kind of the you know that’s

that’s kind of the picture of what he

was seen and he just laid it out in more

detail because of his own history and

background he didn’t see kind of the

larger picture of that so he gave just

what he saw just how he interpreted it

so that’s what you that’s what you get

there so that’s what we’re doing and

this whole you know like Bob wasn’t

aware that what he saw was his

interpretation he just what he saw was

what he saw and it was there so in Bob

Monroe’s books he talks about this part

that he goes to and he goes to his part

to relax and kind of meditate and

thinking and that’s his Park you see

somebody else who had the same sort of

data stream would say oh I go out in a

rowboat in the middle of a lake I just

sit drift and somebody else would say oh

I stand on a Butte in Nevada and just

look you know out of this vast you know

so it’s individualized here yes and

somebody else goes out into the woods

and hikes and so Bob Monroe had a part

because that’s that is what gave that’s

what meant to him of this serene place

where he could kind of go and just and

just be it was a nice protected pleasant

place to be so it was a part because

that’s Bob’s interpretation of that data

stream everybody has to interpret the

day that they get based on their own

experience base and that’s true of us as

freewill awareness units here we are

consciousness we’re playing in Avatar

we’re getting a data stream we have to

interpret that data stream in terms of

our experience base so two people get

the same data stream they interpret it

differently now if they come from the

same culture they probably interpret it

similarly they come from vastly

different cultures they may interpret it

completely differently you say so it’s

it has to do with with who we are you

know for the culture we’re in bob was a

straightforward reporter and most of us

kind of understand what he was saying

it’s a mistake to take it too literally

you kind of have to read between the

lines not just not just the lines it’s

like that in an out-of-body situation

it’s a data stream it’s another virtual

reality it’s not reality when you die

here when the body dies here just like

when your elf dies you know hit with

your elf you run to the graveyard and

then you have to go back and collect all

your stuff but when you die here you end

up in another virtual reality it’s not

the graveyard but it’s another virtual

reality where you begin to plan if you

will and process to another experience

packet because that’s what you do you go

from experience packet to experience

packet trying to evolve the quality of

your consciousness so the system can can

evolve with you Wow

mr. Campbell thank you so much for this

conversation I’ve learned more in the

last couple hours and I have in a while

so thank you yeah thank you so much for

being here is there is there a site

where people can find your work yes and

I would you know I have a website but

that websites a little broken right now

I’m in the process of doing better but

there’s still a lot of information there

you can find all of my talks my

interviews you will be able to find this

very interview on my youtube everything

I do one of the requirements is that it

be put out for free and they’re all on

YouTube they’re all for free my books

are for free on Google Books

although it is an older first printing

version and I’m up to like printing

number five now so it’s it’s a little

outdated in the details but it’s mostly

it’s mostly the same so yeah it’s still

a good one to to read but go to YouTube

I’ve got like 215 220 videos there I

caution people to take it a small byte

at a time some of those videos are like

Calgary is a real good summary it was a

Calgary workshop that’s what it’s called

it’s about three years old now but I did

a real good over the you know over the

top kind of flyby of all the concepts

and what they meant and so on and it’s

you know Friday I gave about two and a

half hour

overview and then Saturday we talked all

day about the theory which means like

six or seven hours and then Sunday we do

exercises in experiencing the larger

reality so I teach people how to you

know about remote viewing and how to

body and how to heal with your mind and

then we do some exercises and healing

and remote viewing and so on so that’s

if you take that all together you’re

like fourteen you know fifteen sixteen

hours out of that that Calgary workshop

and of course that’s intimidating to

people fifteen hour video you know no

way so so take it in like you know 20

minute chunks that’s a good thing about

YouTube you can always come back pick up

where you left off yeah and then you can

get through and some of them are short

some of my things are short is five

minutes so it’s just lots of stuff out

there love it love it man well you guys

heard it here this is the human

experience thank you so much for

listening guys this was such a fun

episode we will tech check you guys next

week thank you

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