Transcript for Episode 33 – Dr. Gabor Maté

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up guys such an interesting episode here

with dr. Gabor mattei I was palpably

nervous for this episode I mean I’m

nervous before all of our interviews but

I was especially nervous for this one so

excuse my nervousness otherwise really

interesting episode here be sure to

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listening the human experience is moving

through the reward pathways in your

brain as we speak to my guest

bestselling author world renowned

speaker and lecturer dr. Gabor mattei

dr. matthias welcome to hxp it’s a

pleasure to have you with us thank you

dr. Monta if you could just open this

conversation with the brief introduction

to who you are for the people that don’t

know I think that would help lay the

foundation sure so I’m medical doctor

retired at you for medical or three

years ago after 32 years I wrote consani

practice I worked in cali door care

looking after terminally ill people I

was interested in child development

how the impact of really experienced

affects people throughout the lifetime

and then for 12 years I’ve worked in

what is North America’s most

concentrated area of drug use

Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside where I

worked with people who live with HIV

drug addictions hepatitis C and all the

complications of armed drug addiction

and and social authorization I’ve

written four books including in the

realm upon your ghost and addiction and

when the body says no on a mind-body

unity and help an illness and what I

found over the years that is that you

can’t separate human emotion from

physiology of human beings you can’t

separate individuals from the

environment in other words disease in a

person is not a unitary solitary

discrete event but reflects their

relationship to the environment

including the social and psychological

mind I thought I found that that stupid

of cancer or roto botrytis i found that

trauma is our fundamental influence and

the unserved later disease and of mental

illness specifically addictions and

other problems in other words the unity

of a human life and that how the

environment were born into conceived in

riordan has decisive influence on our

health later on and the beliefs that we

develop or under selves based on those

early experiences also a huge impact on

our health later on can we just start

with and I’d like to get into a few

things that you mentioned but let’s

start with how do we define addiction

addiction as any characterizes any

behavior that a person finds pleasure or

relief in the short term or craves but

is negative consequences in the long

term and is unable to give it up despite

those negative consequences so craving

pleasure relief in the short term

negative long-term consequence inability

to give up that’s when our addiction is

and that’s whether it’s substances or

sex or gambling or shopping alcohol

whatever it is

that’s what defines an addiction why do

you think this is such a wide problem

have you have you noticed that

addictions are the same all over the

world or are they different based on

societal groups oh they’re very cultural

it depends on where it’s happening and

why and the common basis for addiction

on the individual level is trauma in

other words if you ask yourself i mean

if if you get pics Xavier you listen to

my definition of addiction by that

definition can you tell me if you’ve

ever done addictive behavior in your

life yeah sure okay what if you didn’t

say what was wrong with it was right

about her what did it do for you being

me feel good my way it removed the

stress from my life okay in other words

the addiction wasn’t the problem the

eviction was your attempt to solve a

problem of stress so the purpose of a

question is why do you so much stress in

your life and and how is it that you

didn’t learn how to handle stress in a

more autonomous and and liberated away

and so in other words something happened

to you and so that when saying about

addiction is that it’s always every

spawns to something that happened it’s

not just a disease that comes on for no

reason it’s actually an attempt on the

part individual to solve a problem that

their life is presented them with and so

the more trauma there is the more stress

there is the more childhood emotional

loss there is the more people then run

to addictions to relieve the stress of

all back or to leave the pain of it and

so that you see a dictionary in

societies where there’s a lot of trauma

and you the addiction initiate issues

and cultures where there’s a loss of the

holding environment is the loss of the

connection and the community in the

contact that would help you deal with

stress in more helpful ways yeah I mean

I think one of the most important things

that you mention is that people just

want to be normal and people are just

trying to be normal can you get into

that a bit more please well they asked

me when I ask people is it just

you what the addiction do for you

they’ll say well it it really stress it

to help me soothe my pain it made me

feel more connected it gave me a sense

of control these are normal human

qualities this is we all want to feel in

control we all want to feel connected to

I want to feel relief from pain we all

want to be able to deal with our

stresses these are normal human

aspirations and there’s nothing wrong

with them but the real issue is why are

people so bereft that they need to turn

to an addictive behavior to give them

these normal qualities that life should

give them so it is nothing remarkable

about people’s desire to experience

normal see the what’s remarkable is why

don’t they and for that yet to look at

the culture you have to look at their

environment strong a strong thread in

your work is the relationship between

childhood trauma and how it affects

their mental and physical health as an

adult I mean how how would you say how

important is this to understanding

addiction love addiction it’s crucial I

as I mentioned in the Downton is set of

Vancouver which is north america’s most

dense area of drug use in 12 years of

work every single woman I’ve ever worked

with that thing sexually abused every

single one as a child many of the men

have been abused traumatized neglected

abandoned if you look at statistics and

addiction not just my own observations

huge correlation should be in shock

trauma and addiction and each other

trauma predisposes to addiction in a

number of ways number one the very

development of the brain depends on the

environment and so when children don’t

have the supporting loving nurturing

environments the brain circuits will

drive the chemicals that make them feel

good so then they want to do a bit to

behaviors to give in Muslim chemicals so

it affects brain development chadha

trauma also of course is emotionally

very painful it’s very hurtful you have

this lifelong pain that you want to run

away from the fictions all over running

away from pain

then people at Rana Ty’s future held it

who’s traumatized does not recognize

that the stone along with the world they

naturally assume that the sign along

with them so there’s a tremendous sense

of shame that many people are over if

they were traumatized it’s all their

fault it’s all because they’re flawed

they’re not worthy they’re deficient

sister died at the light addiction so in

and all been a child was traumatized is

it too many sense of isolation the very

essence of trauma is to isolate you from

your environment so if you alone so you

get cut off from your own contact you

felt tremendous loneliness you felt this

tremendous being cut off from the

universe from from any sense of

spiritual connection so all the things

that people need are undermined and and

and eroded by trauma no wonder then

trauma is the major factor in

presupposing addiction which is

unfortunately most addiction physicians

don’t even realize but every single

person they deal with is a traumatized

human being what would you say is the

difference between ceremonial usage

usages to expand consciousness versus a

person sitting in their room kind of

drinking themselves into oblivion yummy

said use substances for thousands of

years even alcohol I’m an alcoholic they

call it xperia called spirits so there’s

a connection of spirituality and you can

use almost any substance almost any

substance surely the natural occurring

substances let’s save let’s put it that

way you can use them ceremonial it takes

on elec peyote which we met in Native

American church it’s being used for tons

of years maybe thousands for reaching a

higher level of consciousness to be in

community to receive the teachings of

the others it’s to elevate your level of

consciousness or we can use it to escape

you can use it to obtain yourself to to

cure your pain 22 not the journey but to

go on a trip you know away from reality

so these substances the natural ones

anyway traditionally they are often you

Simone Ely and the same people

that traditionally have used its Emily

once you traumatize them and culturally

destroy them we use the same substances

in a database defining question in

substance uses not what substance are

using or what is the context and what is

the intention and what is the guidance

that drives the use of the substance so

I mean what are we what do we need to do

as a society I mean the war drug seems

like an abject failure well you should

be the one rose is a failure only if you

believe its premises I mean if the one

drugs is really intended to stop the use

of drugs or stop the trafficking of

drugs then you can say well it’s a

complete failure but what if it isn’t

what if the war on drugs is designed to

keep people under control what if the

one rose is designed to keep illegal and

police system well flush with funds what

if the purpose is the subjection of

minority populations then then it’s a

major success so let’s not be too

careful let’s not be too a quick to

assume it’s a failure but but yes in

terms of its stated purposes of stopping

addiction of interdicting the

trafficking or the transfer of drugs

it’s a complete failure and it’s always

doomed to be because this warmer the one

American law make it judge said he said

you can no longer you can no more stock

be you can no more repeal the law of

supply and demand and a lot of gravity

so that if people are going to want to

use is they’re going to use and the

question is why do they want to use with

the installation pain so if you wanna

stop use of drugs begin with helping

children not be traumatized create a

society which be parents are supported I

create a society in which pregnant women

are are supported right from the first

panel visit and in dealing with their

stresses in others create a situation in

which young people are not young

children are not being hurt then you

then you can protect them from addiction

otherwise you can’t so what needs to

happen on a social level is that we have

to understand that actually

in a toxic culture that hurts people

which incidentally happens to be the

title of the book i’m not working on i’m

writing now it’s called toxic culture

and and this society has so many ways of

hurting people i’m going to speak for a

whole hour about back but if we really

want to stop the use of addictive

substances we have to stop people from

being hurt on a massive societal level

you you talk a lot about harm reduction

how how can we use harm reduction to

benefit this understanding we have in

regards to addiction well in the context

of drug treatment harm reduction is a

particular approach now the ideal of

course anybody was addicted to a

substance and is destroying themselves

and people around them to their drug use

whether it’s alcohol or crystal meth or

whatever it is ideally they would quit

ideally they become abstinent you know

so that it would be free of the drug use

and that’s a useful goal but it’s not a

realistic one for everybody some people

they’re still too much in pain the

lights are in chaos they need the drugs

to feel any sense of relief soham

reduction means giving somebody a clean

needle that means they’re not going to

inject themselves of HIV or pass it on

to somebody else harm reduction means

even helping and find a vein in their

arms so they don’t inject in their next

and give themselves a vein access so

harm reduction civilians reducing

harmful drug use harm reduction also

means reducing a harm from the social

lobster cessation and rejection of the

drug addict so I used to be the

physician at a facility called the

supervised injection site which is the

only site in North America it’s like

Hoover where people can bring their

drugs illegal drugs but they bring them

in and they actually get to injected

under medical supervision that reduces

the harm they’re less likely to get HIV

there’s like less likely a great brain

abscess the legislature to pass on

infectious disease or another that’s

what harm reduction is there in your

opinion a tipping point when something

moves from a so-called normal level of

behavior and then becomes an addiction

again if you look at my definition

addiction if your veins you short-term

relief or pleasure but long-term

negative consequences if you were an

addiction it’s a very simple test are

they long to make it a consequence now

some people we know some people may have

difficulty recognizing that the

behaviors of long-term negative

consequences take a workaholic it is you

choose a category that I’ve certainly

fit into so you get all these great

achievements and people love you because

you do know it’s a great work and all

that you might not even realize you’ve

an addiction except if you look at

what’s happening to your family your

children are being ignored then your

marriage is suffering you know so so the

question always is are the negative

consequences despite the short term

relief and the short term craving

hypothetically speaking in in regards to

drug addiction do you do you think that

if all legal drugs were legalized

tomorrow there would be an increase or

decrease in drug addiction well I don’t

think anybody’s ever getting

legalization in a sense of should they

be sold on the streets on the corner

stores nobody’s advocating that but we

know that in jurisdictions such as for

example in Portugal where they have

decriminalized these two drugs where if

you possess drugs for your personal use

you’re not going to be labeled a

criminal in those situations and

anywhere drugs are provided like heroin

for example is provided to confront

heroin addicts under similar conditions

we know that there’s a decrease in drug

use and there’s certainly a huge

decrease in criminality and an increase

in people seeking treatment so from a

perspective of the evidence it’s not

even controversial you know as as a

society do you think we are quick to

treat mental and physical illness with

medications well again the the medical

view of the illness whether it’s

physical announced like cancer or mental

illness like depression order say ADHD

is that we’re simply dealing with

biological entities that needs to be

fixed at biologically so whether through

surgery or through biological

manipulation of the brain as with

medications and so on so a limited view

we don’t recognize that both the

physical illness and the mental illness

reflect a person’s lifelong relationship

with their environment and that and that

the mind in the body can’t be separated

so when things happen emotionally things

will happen physiologically and that

means that the treatment of all the

illness whether it’s cancer or

depression or anxiety or any other

mental illness has to be more than just

addressing the physiology we have to

recognize that the physiology reflects

lifelong experience the physiology

doesn’t cause the experience it reflects

the experience it’s a product of the

experience and then it causes more

experience so if for example if I was

traumatized as a child as a result my

brain circuits of serotonin another

brain chemicals aren’t functioning so

well and I become depressed then now

behave in ways that are depressed I’ll

create more suffering for myself in a

but is a lifelong interaction between

the physiology and the emotions and my

situation and society and my

relationships so that just to address

the biological side of it which is what

we do with our drugs is to miss the both

the cause and the solution so I speak as

a physician of prescribed medications to

people and as a person of taking them I

benefited from them I’m not against them

but they’re not the answer they’re just

a part of the answer and it should be a

small part of the answer I’m kind of

jumping around here through topics but

is it in your opinion is it possible to

become a

22 anything there’s hardly any human

behavior that’s not conducive to

addictive misuse takes something like

meditation people being addicted to

meditation meditation sounds like a

great thing and it is but what if

they’re using it to escape from their

lives what if they’re trying to get to

nice states of feeling or remoting or or

mental states because they can deal with

life the way it is out there then it can

be get addicted and they’re not actually

I’m not actually using the medication

meditation is a practice for life

they’re using it to escape from life

same with Anna Buddha recognize that 24

years ago we said anything can be

addictive whatever it is so naturally

substances alcohol group which can be

used in a convivial communal way and

often has been can obviously be a deep

source of suffering and addiction

tobacco which in native condition this

be used as the healing plant and is the

teaching plant and is a focus of

ceremony can actually be as we all know

the focus of our life threatening

addiction so is there’s nothing there’s

nothing in this world that can become

addicted virtually nothing it’s not the

it’s not the behaviors one’s internal

relationship to it that defines whether

it’s addictive or not d you see that in

your you’ve suffered from your your own

addiction to shopping how did that

affect your life well when I was

spinning eight thousand those a week on

shopping for things i didn’t need and

and I ignoring my family and he got my

work and and and causing shameful myself

you can see that that would affect my

life was there was there a single point

that you chose to recognize that or to

stop you know there’s no single point

and I would continue

for four years after right for years I

would recognize that it was damaging but

i was still continue with it which is

typical of addicts I mean addicts know

that their behavior to victory just that

knowledge doesn’t stop them so for me

was a process and and it has to be for

everybody and it’s never over like you

can hardly ever say that okay I’m so

pure now and I’m so cured and I’m so

balanced that the risk is never there

anymore because when even after you

dealt with it successfully whatever the

election is unless you’ve really fully

transformed themselves what stresses

arise and pressures arise or emotional

pain arises there’s still that

temptation to go for the addictive

escape in a lot of your work you present

compassion as an important element that

is needed for the treatment of addicts

how does society measure that

compassionate and do you think that

we’re getting better at measuring this

or worse well compassion is simply

recognizing that people don’t behave in

self-destructive or negative ways

because they’re bad people but because

they suffered and they’re trying to do

with their suffering not in a very

optimal way but I like addiction is

there is a response to suffering so once

you recognize that people are trying to

suit their pain how can you how can you

ostracize and punish them for for being

in pain and for not knowing how to go

with their pain so compassion is just a

recognition that underneath every

dysfunctional human behavior and every

negative impact of those dysfunctional

behaviors there’s actually deep human

suffering that’s causing it in the first

place is there I mean how do you define

the hungry ghosts phenomena the honey

roast is a Buddhist free I phrase the in

a Buddhist cosmology sometimes they talk

about the

the six realms that we all travel

through that we all cycle through so

there’s the human realm which is

ordinary cells then is the animal realm

which is our appetites and our drives

and our passions your hungers you might

say then there is the hell realm which

is terror and fear and rage you know are

almost scary and difficult emotions em

anyway I’m mmm you go through these

realms like it sometimes you’re mananan

sometimes in another Don you host realm

is the realm in which the creatures are

depicted as ones with large empty

bellies small scrawny necks tiny mouths

in other words there’s a huge emptiness

inside them that the neck they can never

fill well that’s the addictive realm

predictions are all about trying to fill

this emptiness on the outside and you

never can and it’s not that somebody’s

always in one room on the other I mean I

might go through all the six rounds in

one day or you might you know and the

addictive realm is when were in that

space of emptiness or we try and fill

ourselves on the outside usually to

escape from the hell realm or too much

suffering and so on so the only ghost is

a Buddhist symbol for that desperation

to fill the emptiness from the outside

which addiction manifests what do you

what do you think distinguishes us from

other animals i mean i don’t i don’t

usually see like lions or giraffes

snorting cocaine and why what makes us

different well but you can make animals

addicted if you put them in a laboratory

on you make them suffer so that in

environments where very rare creature

can be their true selves you will not

see suffering yeah you will not see

addiction you might see suffering but

you won’t see addiction but when you

deprive creatures of the capacity to be

themselves and to an end to deal with

their issues according to their full

capacities you’re going to see addiction

so what are your own personal beliefs

are giving spiritual police the reality

is that people are spiritual creatures I

mean by that is that we have a need not

just a need but it’s in our nature to be

connected to something low

Jordan our egos now we live in a society

that basically says you’re

individualistic aggressive evos that’s

who you are and that the pursuit of

happiness which means the pursuit of

pleasure and wealth is the highest goal

areas which is a denial of who we

actually are so this society by nature

korean suffering by three basic ethnic

great suffering so people do have these

spiritual needs because it’s part of

their nature and it’s an end aren’t

basically our needs all have to do with

our true nature so so our true nature is

that we need love and connection and

compassion we need to give these amid to

receive these and we also need a

connection something larger than we are

because we are connected so enlarged

than we are and so that the denial of

those needs is the denial of our nature

and so screw allottee which is against

pathology there is a very vague word it

could could mean specific religious

beliefs for some people but it could be

a very open-ended search for meaning for

the people we all have to fight for

ourselves what our political spiritual

pursuit or path is for special they

still be part of who you are and I used

to deny that i’m meghan used to realize

that growing up friend and and being a

very militant atheist you know and in my

younger years and it’s something that as

i grow policy older but i really i could

be more mature i’m recognizing that

spirituality is actually nothing wanders

about it is simply who you are you

co-founded a compassion for addiction

can tell us about that organization it’s

a nonprofit that just getting off the

ground and its intention is to and you

know you can look it up compassion for

addiction gorg I think and I think

compassion is compassion and in the

number for addiction it’s simply what

we’re talking about before that the

prevailing view of addiction right now

in the Western world is either it’s a

choice a bad evil

morally flawed a choice that people make

for which they need to be punished and

pasta sighs or it’s a brain disease

based on genetic factors well I’m saying

it’s neither a choice nor is it a brain

disease but actually what it is it’s a

response to suffering that demands

compassion if you’re going to treat it

with any kind of success do you think

that there are some addictions that kind

of go under the radar or undiagnosed

well as many addiction our society and

and as I said any behavior that you

crave find pleasure or relief in

negative consequences so addiction to

power politicians suffer from addiction

to fire look at them they can’t give it

up you know that I mean how many

politicians are able to give it up how

they fight to hold on to it despite the

negative uses to which they put that

power and we offer negative for

themselves in terms of their family

lights the addiction to wealth look at

the addiction to well that leads to the

destruction of the environment and it’s

so I run it you know we say to the

individual addict how can you inject

this harmful substance into your club

that’s going to kill you and then we

directing all these harmful substances

into the earth into the environment into

the oceans that’s going to kill us but

which addiction is more billet arias in

its consequences the Lee visual person’s

heroin or cocaine or crystal meth habit

or the addiction to wealth that causes

us to kill the very environment or

mature life depends but this is one of

the radars addictions we don’t see the

net addictions Laurie goes to treatment

for wealth addiction why do you think

stress plays such a major role in this

what stress is not not not an emotional

state of being upsets that’s actually a

physiological response of the body to

any kind of threat so far if i were to

threaten you right now

or somehow mistreat you if I’d the power

to do that then your body will go into a

stress mode you’d have high levels of

stress hormones i dwell on a cortisol

which will help you escape or to fight

back so stress is a necessary response

to short-term threat but in a long term

the same substances that in the short

term help you escape in a long time they

make you sick so do Ellen and that’s

just where I’m going from your adrenal

gland help you escape in a short term

the long term gives you heart disease

strokes anxiety and so on a high blood

pressure in the short term cortisol

suppress inflammation helps you gain

more sugar so they give more energy for

the flight or flight response by a long

term suppressor union system makes you

depressed interferes with your memory

gives you Alzheimer’s as your bones give

you us to process ulcers heart disease

on and on and on and on so when you live

in a society when you look at what

stresses people but stresses people is

threat or such as people is uncertainty

lack of information loss of control

conflict now if you if you understand

that you see what a stressful society we

live in that means that people’s

physiology is day-to-day being

challenged by chronic stress no wonder

then you have a population in North

America or over fifty percent of adults

of some kind of chronic illness and and

our mental illness and you know physical

illness the diabetes supplied by

Buttershaw heart disease cancer ruined

oh that’s right so whatever it is these

are all stress ters in the different

diseases there are the impacts of

long-term stress that’s very often

traceable back to childhood experience

again but again which the medical

profession treats as isolated biological

entities and we don’t see the connection

between people stressful lives and the

harmful effect on their bodies but

stress is a huge impact on it comes to

addiction of course I didn’t ask you

what you addictive behavior who are so

I’m not gonna ask you now but if you

look at yourself you

probably go with me that when will you

most like the relapse into addictive

behaviors when you were stressed so that

were they trying to understand the

illness physical or mental or addiction

stress is a huge factor so then I mean

how do we how do we reduce stress in our

lives and how do we address the

physiological impacts of our everyday

jobs in what we’re doing well I mean

that’s that’s what I’m addressing in

this book toxic culture it’s very

difficult very difficult and let’s face

it it’s not an individual question it’s

very much a cultural whole goal and

racial and gender and ethnic question

because my capacity as a Caucasian

middle class physician to address the

stress in my life is far more privileged

then if I would say a poor black single

mother and during an alabama under

conditions of racism and deprivation so

so partly we’re looking at broad social

political questions that can only be

answered on the social political

economic level and then and when we do

address that is through people’s

movements that arise to in response to

unfairness and oppression and suffering

so you can you can’t you can’t separate

this from social movements and social

factors on individual level we have to

be aware of stress in other words that

it takes a lot of mindful awareness to

be aware of how we actually stretch

ourselves what beliefs do I have that

stretch me so if I believe that my value

depends on impressing other people then

I’ll spend my whole life trying to

get other people to value me and I will

dwell conscious things that stress me

but I’ll do it because I believe that my

value depends on what these others think

of me well I’m gonna deal with that I

have to understand and be aware of what

my fundamental beliefs are oh I get it I

believe that nav value depends on what

somebody else thinks of me or whether

they get that idea from oh I know I got

that idea because that’s how I stayed in

leisure with my parents by trying to

impress them all the time do I still

need to be controlled by belief that i

developed as a two-year-old well that

takes some psychological wariness that

takes a lot of internal work that takes

a lot of mindfulness work in the present

so that we can be aware of when these

thoughts and beliefs arise and so that

they don’t control our behavior so in

answer to your question it takes a lot

of work to be aware of stress and to

recognize its social and economic

sources and also to recognize the

sources in the beliefs that I have

developed about myself that I continue

to harbor unconsciously and which

continue to run my life yeah I like that

answer do you have any single piece of

advice that for someone who may be

suffering from addiction that is

listening to this show that you can give

it may sound self-serving but what they

need to do is first of all really

understand what’s happening with them so

they need to be compassionate about

themselves they need to understand that

they’re not bad people that they they’re

not stupid that this wasn’t a mistake in

their part but actually the addiction

whatever the form it took or takes is a

response to suffering that they may not

even have recognized and the best way to

understand dad is to read my book and

addiction in the road from your ghost or

to look at my upon my many many talks

YouTube talks an addiction like to be

the TEDx talk i gave called the power of

addiction and the addiction to power

which is a 20 minute talk in other words

or check out the website compassion for

addiction I don’t mean to bring him back

to myself for puri self-serving

this is just that this view of addiction

is a response to suffering I think

articulated more clearly than anybody

else that I know and the fact that I do

so is just a reflex the failure of our

system to understand what it’s all about

now I’m not the source of all this

information there’s many many studies

that show this but I think I bring them

together in a way that speaks to people

so I I’m not gonna be shy about it and

say to people I look check out the work

and find that it is true for you but

begin with the compassionate recognition

that it’s not your fault and it’s not a

mistake but that actually was a response

to suffering that you may not even have

recognized in yourself then must and I

need to say something here about trauma

which is that there’s the obvious trauma

of sexual abuse or abandonment or parent

dying or can’t beating another parent or

parent being jailed or or a rancorous

divorce that you may have experienced

when you’re very small and you went

through all that stress there’s that

obvious trauma but there’s another kind

of trauma which you call developmental

trauma which doesn’t have to do with

terrible things happening but with good

things not happening remember I talked

about the human need for being

understood and compassion and love and

all that well you apparently have tried

to do their best but what if they were

stretched what if they would’ve or

distressed what if they were distracted

what if they were too troubled by life

and they couldn’t give you that pattern

and they couldn’t give you that

acceptance they couldn’t give you that

holy environment that you as a sensitive

the length unneeded then you also were

traumatized but you may not perceive

yourself as being traumatized because

you may say rightly well my parents love

me yes your pants love you but they

didn’t give you what you need it and

that itself is traumatic and that

affects the brain that affects how you

see yourself and I gives you a lot of

pain which you trying suit through

addictive behavior so it takes

compassion for the self and that’s if

you want one piece of advice it’s have

some compassion

curiosity for yourself instead of

judging yourself be curious or why did I

do that why did I do that what’s the

reason what happened and allow that

computer city to be infused with

compassion instead of cell judgment so

it’s not why did I do that why was that

just an idiot so why did I do that but

huh given that I’m not an idiot given

that I’m a good human being what I

decide why did i do all that stuff

what’s the explanation so it’s

compassionate curiosity yeah I think

that’s a very powerful message sir where

can people find your work the website is

www on dr g a b or a mighty duck on a

lot of my you two lectures you can want

your there’s no cost they just go watch

these lectures talks a lot of my

articles chapters from my books are

there so that’s probably a good place to

begin well dr. Matta I really do

appreciate your time thank you so much

for being here

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