and how to get out of it is simple I did

say it’s easy I said it’s simple and

that is to recognize that you right now

are a full and complete human being

regardless of your external

circumstances and I remember thinking

that all of this was useful only if you

were sitting quietly thinking peaceful

thoughts but not when you came to the

hurly-burly then it was actually pretty

useless but somehow I knew that wasn’t

true I knew that this is very useful

maybe even the only thing that was

useful I just hadn’t figured out how to

make use of it

you want something you think if this

happens I will be happy you get it and

you’re thrilled for a day a week and

then it simply becomes part of the

background of your life and you move on

and now you want something else

it’s the experience but we never learn

from it that’s the problem

suffering begins the moment you label

that event this is bad this is terrible

I cannot bear it and the moment you

stick that label on it at that instant

suffering begins initially when I did

that I felt like a fraud because you

know how can I teach all of this well I

hadn’t figured out how to make use of it

but I kinda thought let’s begin and we

will kind of muddle away through and

learn together and that’s exactly what

happened

we’re in the human predicament Xavier as

long as we’re in the human predicament

stuff will happen there will be serious

illness and death there will be

relationship problems there will be

business reverses there will be

financial setbacks all that is part of

being in the human condition as these

things come about you will deal with

them as appropriate but you will be

anchored in a very deep sense of

well-being that’s what I mean by an

ideal life what’s up folks

Xavier katana here our episode today’s

with dr. shreek Umar Rao

is a quote happiness teacher he is an

advisor to senior positions ecute Avene

executive at Warner Communications and

the publishing company mcgraw-hill

he created a popular MBA course

creativity and personal mastery he’s

written a number of books on this idea

of pursuing happiness and how our

variations and thinking change the

perspective that we take on life

we covered many aspects of his work in

this conversation I really enjoyed it I

think you guys will enjoy it as well if

you like this show get to our patreon

page you can support us there get to our

Twitter account where we post some of

the best content and all that that’s the

human XP at the end of those respective

websites here is my guest dr. shreek

Amaro hopefully you guys enjoy this

conversation as much as I did thank you

so much for listening

[Music]

the human experiences in session my

guest for today is dr. Street Kumar Rao

dr. Rao thank you so much for being here

I’m fascinated by your work tell us a

little bit about yourself how you got

into this Thank You Savior it’s my

pleasure to be on the show I enjoyed

meeting you at the mind valley reunion

alright how did I get started on this

actually it began as a personal quest

I came to America as a student I got a

PhD in business from Columbia Business

School I worked in corporate America and

was hugely successful in my early days

and then I got went out by corporate

politics I went into a khadeem thinking

that there would be no politics in a

khadeem boy was I wrong I was dead wrong

and I found after some years that I was

feeling very sorry for myself Pierce my

colleagues had gone far ahead of me

financially and in other ways because

they remained in the corporate world and

I was stagnating and all my life I’d

been doing a lot of reading spiritual

biography mystical autobiography they

would take me to a very nice place then

I came back to the real world and I was

stuck and sorry for myself and I

remember thinking that all of this was

useful only if he was sitting quietly

thinking peaceful thoughts but not when

you came to the hurly-burly then it was

actually pretty useless but somehow I

knew that wasn’t true I knew that this

is very useful maybe even the only thing

that was useful I just hadn’t figured

out how to make use of it so one day I

got my idea which is why don’t I take

the teachings of the world’s great

masters strip them of religious cultural

and other connotations and adapt them so

that they’re acceptable to intelligent

people in a post-industrial society and

the thought of doing something like that

made me come alive so I created that

course and it did well I modified it and

offered it again it did better I moved

it to Columbia Business School in 1919

and it exploded it was the only horse at

Columbia which is a university wide draw

had students from business Law School of

International Affairs Graduate School of

Arts and Sciences journalism Teachers

College all over the place and it got

written up you know the New York Times

The Wall Street Journal the Financial

Times Time magazine fortune Forbes

Businessweek and then they just exploded

him took over my life so that’s how it

came to be so in your life there was a

personal struggle with you know

corporate politics and you decided to

take these teachings from great masters

people that you found were great masters

and sort of repackage that into your own

work yes initially when I did that I

felt like a fraud because you know how

can I teach all of this when I hadn’t

figured out how to make use of it but I

kind of thought let’s begin and we’ll

kind of muddle away through and learn

together and that’s exactly what

happened you know in your book are you

ready to succeed you talk about an ideal

life when we talk about an ideal life

what kind of factors are we considering

and reconsidering happiness success fame

money and what are we talking about when

we talk about an ideal life all of that

Xavier and that’s where the trap is most

persons when you talk about an ideal

life tend to use outside parameters to

describe that you know how big a house

they have what kind of relationship they

have with their partner what kind of

relationship they have with their

children how much power they have what’s

their position in an organizational

hierarchy how much influence they have

and all kinds of things like that I used

to be like that too I discovered that

that’s flat-out wrong the ideal life

actually is if you wake up every morning

and you have deep meaning and purpose

you feel deep down that you are exactly

where you were supposed to be

if you feel deep down a very very very

strong sense of I am okay a feeling of

contentment not

a minor contentment which is like you

don’t wish for anything difference but a

really deep rooted sense of well-being

and this sense of well-being never

leaves you

we’re in the human predicament Xavier as

long as we’re in the human predicament

stuff will happen there will be serious

illness and death there will be

relationship problems there will be

business reverses there will be

financial setbacks all that is part of

being in the human condition as these

things come about you will deal with

them as appropriate but you will be

anchored in a very deep sense of

well-being that’s what I mean by an

ideal life there was a TED talk that you

did called plug into your hardwired

happiness you you talk about how

happiness is part of our innate nature

how is it that happiness is hardwired

into our DNA well why do you think this

is so oh well it’s not I think this is

so it’s I know this is so and actually

I’ve got a very simple method by which

you can discover that for yourself

and anybody who’s listening have you

ever been in a situation where you were

struck by some scene of tremendous

beauty maybe a snow-covered mountain

maybe a rainbow maybe the storm-tossed

portion something like that and it’s

Truckee is so spectacularly beautiful

that he took you outside of yourself to

a place of great calm in serenity

virtually all of us can remember some

such instance what happened at that

instant is that somehow we were able to

accept the universe exactly as it was we

didn’t wish for more snow on the

mountain we didn’t wish for the rainbow

to be 200 yards away from where it is

and the moment we accepted the universe

exactly as it was and we didn’t place a

demand on it that it has to be different

then we didn’t have to do anything to

experience the joy that’s an innate part

of us it kind of rose up in enveloped us

we have that capacity right now because

our life right now with all of the

problems that we have all of the

problems we think we have but we are

resisting and in that resistance we are

trying to control the universe

and we get into what I call the if-then

model which is if this happens then I

will be happy and the if-then model is

flawed that’s how we learn to be unhappy

and because we have learned to be

unhappy we don’t experience the

happiness which is an innate part of us

it’s a great segue there also in this

TED talk you talk about mental models

you know and this is affecting the

happiness or the mood structure of

everyone anyone who’s holding these

models can you define what these

different models are please well there’s

a whole pile of models each one of us

has dozens possibly hundreds of models

we’ve got a model for everything

we’ve got a model for how do I get a job

how do I get ahead in my job how do I

build my career how do I find a person

to marry how do I bring up my children

how do I pick a movie that I’m going to

see bigger dozens of models and these

models may or may not be in conflict

with each other the problem is not that

we have mortals the problem is that we

don’t recognize that these are models we

think that this is the way the world is

but this is not the way the world is

this is our model of the way the world

is and the more we believe in that model

the more evidence we seem to get that

this in fact is the way the world is and

we construct a silo into which we lock

ourselves we do it to ourselves but we

think it happened to us one of the most

powerful models is what I call the

if-then model and if-then model

basically says if something happens then

I will be happy and that’s not true okay

but we believe that it’s true and we

keep getting stuck in that that’s how we

learn to be unhappy

so what I’m hearing is that our innate

nature is just happiness just you know

we’ll end it we are in this lap but in

the sense that we understand it because

in the West we tend to talk about

happiness in a very trivial terms you

know I had a great ice cream so I’m

happy you had a wonderful dinner so I’m

happy and that’s not what I’m talking

about I’m not talking about the

momentary flashes of pleasure or the

momentary flashes when you’re not

actively unhappy I’m talking about as I

mentioned earlier a deep sense of

well-being a knowledge that you are okay

and this is a you know comes from deep

within your gut and spills out and

occupies every part of you that’s what

I’m talking about

that is a very late nature so I thought

the human condition was suffering you

know I thought the human condition is to

like to air is to be human kind of thing

so you’re saying that this idea of we

want the next thing with its it’s like

if I’m if I make this much money a year

then I will be happy but then you make

that much money a year and it doesn’t it

doesn’t change your level of happiness

exactly correct in fact in my programs I

have an exercise I don’t do it very

often but I’ve done it many times in the

past where I have people actually go

back ten years right now you’re a bundle

of if I have this if this happens I will

be happy and ten years ago you were a

bundle of if this happens I will be

happy so go back and reconstruct your

life ten years ago consult your old

Diaries talk to people who knew at that

time speak to your parents and

reconstruct whatever what were the

things that you were hung up on ten

years ago also pretty good that today

you have most of them or many of them

and it doesn’t make any difference to

your level of well-being you simply want

different things now so this is a

classic example of you want something

you think if this happens I’ll be happy

you get it and you’re thrilled for a day

a week and then it simply becomes part

of the background of your life and you

move on and now you want something else

it’s the own experience but we never

learned from it that’s the problem

you know do you think that our society

is built on this sort of if-then

principle of course it is we have this

tremendous industry the advertising

industry that is constantly telling us

that if we want to be fulfilled we need

to get X whatever X is you know whether

it’s cosmetics whether it’s alcohol

whether it’s a drug that will combat

your erectile dysfunction or what

whatever it is we’re always bombarded by

stuff and the implicit promise and all

of that is if you get this then you will

be happy as fascinating I really find it

interesting and you talk about how

ambition is is bad for you know I find

myself to be very ambitious and why is

this bad for you all right

actually we need to be a little more

nuanced about that so I’m not saying

that ambition is bad for you I am saying

that ambition has to be harnessed

properly otherwise it can be bad to you

okay

by definition ambition means that I am

unhappy with where I am or if I am not

unhappy with where I am I believe that I

will be happier someplace else and

therefore I’m going to go to that

someplace else whether whatever the

ambition is for whether it’s the

accumulation of wealth of power of Fame

you know I have to do that in order for

me to be happy and ambition in that

sense is designed to make you unhappy

where you are and this is simply buying

into the if-then mortal the way to use

ambition is different and then it stops

being ambition which is I am perfectly

content and fulfilled where I am but I

have a vision of this is the way the

world should be and I’m going to strive

to make that vision happen and I’m going

to strive to make that vision happen not

because if that vision happens I will be

happier but

because you know I’ve got to do

something and this is my purpose in life

and I will try to make that happen if it

does wonderful if it doesn’t wonderful

it does not in any way affect my

well-being and if that is the attitude

by which with which you start then hate

your gold it’s a very zen sort of way of

being you know I mean it we are so stuck

in this sort of carrot you know in front

of us and we’re on this treadmill the

carrot stays this sort of the same

distance you know so I mean what is a

solution to this how do we solve this

issue is it part of our mental

conditioning it is definitely part of

our conditioning we have been

conditioned from a very young age by

everybody our parents teachers coaches

friends media they all work together to

deliver the same message and how to get

out of it is simple I didn’t say it’s

easy I said it’s simple and that is to

recognize that you right now are a full

and complete human being regardless of

your external circumstances

and you act out of that fullness and

when you do that you will find that life

slips into place in marvellous fashions

but understanding intellectually that

you’re a full and complete human being

and experiencing that for yourself are

two very very very different things

so I mean are we talking about outcome

independence here we’re talking about

it’s being detached from yes the results

of something and and just sort of being

in the now we are talking about outcome

independence I am going to try to do

something I want to be CEO my company

and I’m going to try my level best and

do what it takes to be CEO and if I

succeed wonderful if I don’t succeed

wonderful see the mistake most of us

make Savior is we live our lives the

following way

I set a goal for myself I reach my goal

life the blast or I set a goal to myself

and I failed life sucks so we live on a

sinusoidal curve oscillating between

elation and despair and we spend far

more time at the despair end of the

spectrum that’s a lousy way to live life

the way out of that is to invest in the

process do not invest in the outcome its

outcome independent if I succeed

wonderful if I don’t succeed wonderful

the mistake we make is the following we

think that the value of goals is

achieving the goal

but in reality the value of the goal is

that it’s sex direction and will you try

your level best to reach the goal the

benefit to you is not whether you reach

the goal or not because that is

something that is outside your control

the benefit to you is the learning and

growth that happen in you as you try

your level best to achieve the goal so

you cannot lose if you succeed super

that’s a bonus if you don’t succeed you

still have the learning in growth so you

win

you cannot lose so this is an idea of

the construct being built in our mind

that if said event happens then I’ve you

know quote one if this doesn’t happen

then I’ve lost and then we sort of act

out based on that mental model exactly

correct

interesting so you know you talk about

having a grand vision to work towards

can you give us more information about

this grand vision idea yeah see what

happens is we tend to live in a very be

centered will Xavier and by that I mean

no matter what happens we very quickly

bring it down to what’s the impact on me

in big things and small things for

example your spouse says gee you know

I’m going to be very late so I will

night let’s assume it’s just pauses to

him to make dinner and your sports calls

and says hey you know I’m going to be

very late sorry I can’t make dinner and

you remediate thought well what am I

going to do am I going to eat out or do

I take left or are there any leftovers

at the refrigerator or what do I do

and your thought goes there immediately

or your partner says gets a great job

offer and you immediately think in terms

of how is this going to affect our

relationship you possibly use the

company and you immediately think about

who’s the next person going to be and

what’s my relationship going to be with

that person so no matter what happens we

bring it down to what’s the impact on me

so when we live in a me central universe

we are going to live an essentially

mediocre existence punctuated with

flashes of pleasure but by-and-large

meaningless that’s just the way it is so

if you want to get to the vision I laid

off and laid out earlier about an ideal

life you’ve got to find a cause which is

bigger than you are a cause which brings

a greater good to a greater community

and you have tremendous flexibility in

defining both the greater good and the

greater community and unless you can

find something like that such that you

can subsume if not your whole life at

least a big chunk of it you’re not going

to reach the vision I laid out that is

the vision I have so I have a favorite

story there and this story consists of

mele Valley it’s set in medieval England

where an architect is going to the site

of construction of a great Cathedral and

it comes across three people each of

whom is doing the exact same thing they

a block of stone and putting it on a

bigger block of stone and beating it

with a hammer till it breaks and he has

the first one what he’s doing in his

this canal golly see I’m breaking rocks

and the second one says I’m helping

build a wall behind me and the third one

says I’m helping build a grand Cathedral

and when it’s over people are going to

come from all over the world and they

will be inspired and I will have had a

small role to play in that the third one

was the only one who understood or

recognized the architect and he said

truth be told I don’t like doing it it’s

back-breaking labor and I can get better

wages for lesser effort I’m only doing

it because I want to learn will you

teach me to build a cathedral and 20

years from that date the guy who was

breaking rocks was dead you know he no

longer had the strength to swing a

hammer and he died the guy who was

helping build the wall behind him was

living a life of desperate poverty but

the guy who was helping build the

cathedral was on his way to building his

first Cathedral and that’s pretty much

what happens in our lives every day when

we get up we have a choice that we can

break rocks or we can build a cathedral

and what I’m saying is you have to

identify the Cathedral that you’re going

to build and you’re the only person who

can do that I can’t do that for you I

can point out however that is very

important that you learn and define the

cathedral that you are building and when

you do that every day becomes a blast

and if you don’t succeed in doing that

you know you’re subject to mood swings

and you go up and down and by and large

you live a mediocre existence now one

Cathedral is something that all of us

are building whether we know it or not

and that is the Cathedral of our life

where we are fulfilled and find deep

meaning

that’s a cathedral and every single one

of us Inc is engaged in building it

whether or not we know it and if you are

consciously building it it becomes a so

much easier and you so much more

effective at doing so if I make sense

yeah it does I mean I I follow you I

want to play devil’s advocate a little

bit and let’s say you’re in a

hypothetical situation where you

go to the doctor because of pain

somewhere and you are diagnosed with

cancer how would that be a positive

situation how is that something that you

would regard as a positive thing

depends on how you experience it let me

give you a couple of examples

when Viktor Frankl was in the

concentration camp he met this girl with

whom he had a long conversation and she

told him that she was kind of glad that

what happened to her did because she was

quite a spoiled brat and she recognized

and acknowledged that and said if this

hadn’t happened to me a spiritual

dimension that I am now aware of might

never have come my way and it was that

an incidents like that that let Viktor

Frankl to his lifelong quest which is

why is it that under conditions of

conditions of extreme adversity some

people flourish and thrive and others

fall apart and Christopher Reeve in an

interview that he gave shortly before he

died said that there was far more

meaning in his life after the writing

accident than when he was Superman

so yes it’s not nice to have cancer and

obviously if you could go around and

change it you would but the fact that

you have cancer does not mean you cannot

have a meaningful life and it is your

challenge to work that cancer diagnosis

into it do not let it may make you

dysfunctional but instead use it to

accelerate your group and when you

approach it from that perspective it

happens

how do we start to switch this

perspective how do we start to be more

in the moment be more in the now

well in my book are you ready to succeed

there is a whole bond there are a whole

bunch of exercises and cumulatively

those exercises engineer a mind shift

and I simply mention my book because I

organized those exercises in a

progression but there are lots of

different things that you can do which

will essentially have the same impact

you have to learn to think differently

you have to learn to identify the mental

models which are not serving you well

and replace them with newer ones which

take you in the direction that I have

indicated and if you are gently

persistent in doing this you will find

that a switch does occur you will see

the world differently and as multiple

mortals of yours are replaced with

better models you become a different

person why is this so difficult for most

people why do you think we’re trapped I

mean other than the influence of society

our friends peer pressure and our own

sort of internal thinking why do you

think this is so difficult for people to

do I don’t think it’s very difficult for

people to do Savior it’s simply that

people are not aware that there is this

proven methodology that they can adopt

and they haven’t tried it just

pejorative people who take my programs

find that they have major breakthroughs

and quite a number of them feel that

their entire lives have been transformed

it’s a proven process you just have to

follow it and the problem is not that

it’s difficult the problem is people are

not aware that this can be done and

they’re not aware that there are proven

methodologies for doing this

so it’s an education problem not a it’s

a very difficult thing problem how do we

change the rules of the game where you

know we’re winning is not mandatory

that is a very good question and the

short answer to that is for people to

check here is something to think about

let me present to you two situations one

situation is where you’re feeling

extremely good because you’ve won

something you’ve been promoted to see

you you’ve won a major Telus stool

demand and they’re all these people

applauding and say hey this is

absolutely wonderful

you did it and in other words you’re

feeling very good about yourself because

there is some victory and this victory

is good because there are people all

around you applauding and saying yes yes

more power to you and the other is think

of a time when you were sitting quietly

by yourself and watching a beautiful

rainbow or you were having a beer with a

very good friend of yours and the

conversation was running deep and you

weren’t trying to one-up him he was

right to one-up you you were simply

relaxing in conversation with a good

friend

so imagine those two sequences and say

which one do I really care more about

which one feeds the soul

and if you do that you will find that

what really feeds your soul is when you

have that internal sense of fulfillment

and that internal sense of fulfillment

is not dependent upon somebody else

applauding you

and when you recognize that then you

start moving towards more of that and

less of the other but we live in a

society which is stacked against this

realization so it absolutely is not easy

when we started this conversation you

said that you know you weren’t happy

with your place in corporate America you

know why do I not just adopt one of

these models that you yourself teach and

you know be okay an independent of the

outcome of the corporate politics that

you face

if I’d been aware of these models at

that time that’s exactly what I would

have done

okay fair enough um I want to understand

you know creativity the idea of passion

and you know how that links into this

because you you talk about you know

finding your passion do what you love

this is what we hear a lot what do you

advise people in this sort of feedback

loop this is not gonna sit well with a

lot of people who listen to you who are

listening to this podcast as a view but

I think that this business of finding

your passion is something that is

seriously seriously misleading and it

gets a lot of people hung up and I think

does damage to many many people you’ve

got to understand that passion does not

exist outside you you don’t find your

passion by you know searching for a

passion does not exist in the job it

exists inside you and if you don’t

succeed in finding a way to ignite it

within you right where you are you’re

never gonna find it outside so your job

is to ignite the passion that is inside

you and not go out in a search for

passion but when you succeed in igniting

the passion within you you’ll be

surprised at how quickly it takes over

your life and it will rearrange the

world outside you know you talk about

positive thinking and how positive

thinking and I love this is how positive

thinking can be bad for you and now

we’ve almost stat established this sort

of Church of you know positive thinking

we have to be positive all the time what

do you think this relates to and how do

we get past this positive thinking

actually Xavier is a variation of the

if-then thinking in our heads we need to

think positive because something

happened which is negative and because

something happened which is negative we

have to counteract it by thinking

positive it’s a little bit like you’re

on a teeter-totter and you’re putting

all the weight on one side of the

teeter-totter which is the positive side

very difficult to do and it doesn’t work

far better than positive thinking is to

simply label things as they are you know

we have a habit of saying some things

are good and some things are bad and

understand that whenever an event occurs

it doesn’t cause suffering suffering

begins the moment you label that event

this is bad this is terrible

I cannot bear it and the moment you

stick that label on it at that instant

suffering begins so for example you lose

your job okay you’ve got a lot of free

time now but if you lose your job and

say oh my god you know how am I going to

make my mortgage payments my kids

college tuition is you this is terrible

and the moment you say this is terrible

it’s at that instant that suffering

begins so can you imagine any situation

can you remember any situation in your

life that at the time it happened you

thought was terrible but you can now

look back upon it and say hey this is

actually pretty good most people can so

something happened in the past then at

the time it happened you thought was

terrible but now you can look back and

say it was pretty good why are you in a

hurry to label this bad whatever is

happening to you can you envisage some

scenario by which in X years it could

actually turn out to be pretty good and

if they want said that is yes why are

you in a hurry to label it bad and if

you take the next stage and say is there

anything that I can do to actually make

it good and all of a sudden you moved

from the realm of despair to the realm

of possibility

this is something that is in every

single one of us it’s it’s something

that we can all do and when you do that

you get out of the positive thinking

route because you don’t have to think

positive because nothing negative

happens something happens you don’t call

it negative and if you don’t call it

negative you don’t need to invoke

positive thinking it’s amazing I mean it

makes sense

it fits you know and let me go a little

further of course of course

imagine a child walking so typically

this happens when an infant is somewhere

between 12 and 16 months old and 10 and

16 months old and it gets up and or

tries to get up and take a step in fall

style and you know she cries and mommy

or daddy runs up and say so what

happened sweetheart and kisses supported

makes it well and then she gets up again

and falls again in Christ again after

this happens three or four times mommy

and daddy stop rushing to pick her up

and she stops crying and she puts one

unsteady foot in front of another

unsteady foot and in bits and pieces

eventually learns to walk now what

happens in each time an infant falls

down you say oh my god she failed she

failed yet again this is terrible what

kind of impact will it have on her let’s

get a psychiatrist to counsel her he

imagined that scenario ridiculous isn’t

it it’s exactly the same thing going

through life stuff is gonna happen when

stuff happens just label it stuff

happened and move on and when you do

that you don’t need positive thinking oh

please continue I mean you know because

I think it’s important to really

understand this and understand why

positive thinking can have a detrimental

effect and why our culture is so based

on this idea of being positive or no

just just thinking positive all the time

first of all is very difficult if

something happens and you want to think

positive you’re somehow taking something

that you have labeled bad and trying to

spin it into something good and

sometimes it just doesn’t work things

remain that the way they are but if

instead of labeling it bad you simply

label it as this happened so I got

cancer I have 20 days to live

I could go oh my god this is so

absolutely terrible only at 20 days to

live there so many dreams I have and all

of the things I want to accomplish and

so on this is terrible and all of a

sudden I’m spiraling down to despair and

probably taking a lot of my friends

relatives and people close to me on that

downward spiral but if instead I simply

say okay you know yes I didn’t want to

die in 20 days but at 20 days is what I

have 20 days is what I have this is this

situation I’m faced with is there

anything I can do in terms of

experimental medical treatments or

whatever to push that 20 days outward

and am I willing to explore it and if

not well I have 20 days how best am I

going to make use of those 20 days and

if I do that then all of a sudden it’s

not a tragedy this happened we always

have the capacity to think of things not

as this is terrible but this happened

this is something that we have to

actively cultivate and the way you

cultivate that is to be thinking about

it all the time so if anybody is

listening to this podcast and there is

something going on in your life and

you’re about it classified as a tragedy

Israel labeling it a tragedy simply

label it as this happened okay I will

grant you the nude rather that still

happen but it did happen so this

happened what are you now going to do

about it and when you do that you move

to a completely different emotional

domain now this might be a little bit

off-topic but you know I want to ask you

about the idea of you know destiny or

fate and you know do you subscribe to

these sort of narratives that our life

is

an architectural design that is outside

of us and that we are sort of following

this path where free will is you know

kind of a not so much not so clear all

right

these Xavier are all stories that we

tell ourselves I have complete free will

to determine what I am going to do

that’s a model I am bound by my destiny

and fate and there is nothing that I can

do to change my fate that is a model

whichever model you hold if you look for

evidence you will find plenty of

evidence that supports that this in fact

is the way the world is so my solution

and this is what I advocate to anybody

listening to this podcast is recognize

that either of these is just a model if

it is a model that works for you by all

means adopted if it’s a model that

doesn’t work t work for you there are

alternate models and you can pick up any

one of those so don’t waste a whole lot

of time thinking about you know are you

constrained or do you have free will

exercise free will that you think you

have and if it is constrained by destiny

then you may or may not recognize the

constraint but just move as if you had

free will and if you get the outcome you

wanted wonderful if you don’t get the

outcome you want it’s still wonderful

you still have the learning in growth

from the effort that you put in and that

is something that every one of us can do

how important is in a surrender to this

process

surrender is very important but most

people misunderstand surrender they

think surrender means and I’m gonna lie

back and not do anything and basically

become a vegetable or complacent that’s

not what true surrender is true

surrender is complete acceptance of the

fact that outcomes are outside your

control and they have always been

outside your control and they will

always be outside your control that is

the nature of the universe we reign but

because the outcome is outside our

control does not mean that we do not try

our level best to achieve an outcome we

are in the human predicament and as long

as we’re in the human predicament we

have a vision of this is the way this is

the way the world should be as long as

we have a vision of this is the way the

world should be we will try our level

best to achieve that vision that is

incumbent upon us surrender means that

we accept that we may or may not reach

our vision but that does not absolve us

of the responsibility you try our level

best to achieve that and when we try our

level best to achieve that our benefit

the gain that we have is the growth that

is enjoined it that is engendered in us

by the effort that we put in and when we

recognize that and work in that manner

we find that every day is a blast so

that is what I mean by surrender

surrender is acknowledging that they

counter that the outcome is something

over which we do not have any control we

never had any control and we never will

have any control but we act as if we

have control while accepting that we

don’t have control this is something

that’s very important we embrace the

paradox

and I find it intriguing and you know

when when I heard your your lecture at

the conference I I really wanted to

bring you on to this program for that

reason and something else that you talk

about is this search for meaning you

know you brought up Victor Frank –

Frankel earlier the banns quest for

meaning you know why is this necessary

why do we build this construct of

creating meaning for our lives like

you’re taking me deeper and deeper

Xavier’s right out and contradict myself

we as human beings are stuck in our

minds and we have this thing called

logic and we are constantly trying to

use logic to solve all problems and we

have this insatiable quest which says

why did this happen what is the meaning

of this why is there so much sorrow and

suffering in the world why did God make

the world and did a whole bunch of

things and logic of course always takes

us into paradox you know we have

invented a god and this God is

all-powerful well if God is all-powerful

can he construct a wall that’s so high

that he cannot jump over it and we

always run into these conundrums of

logic and behind all of that is the

insistence that there has to be a

meaning there has to be a purpose what

if there isn’t because ultimately what

happens there here is that there is this

great unity which has been called

different things in different

generations but it’s an underlying

substratum it’s like the ocean and each

one of us is a wave on that ocean the

wave comes out of the ocean it exists in

time and space and it sinks back into

the ocean so the wave comes from the

ocean goes back into the ocean and is

the ocean so if you identify with the

ocean then there is no problem there is

no sorrow there is no suffering the

ocean has been always will be

so that is the substratum that we’re all

a part of and the problem is that we

don’t identify with the ocean we

identify with the

and the wave is in time in space and it

will disappear so it’s from the wave

that we say why did this happen what is

the meaning what is the purpose and

maybe there is no purpose you know there

is this ocean it always was it always

will be is playing around endlessly in

innumerable permutations and

combinations and that’s just the way it

is

it’s it’s gonna happen what is the

meaning and what is the purpose of all

of this

that’s an intellectual trap in which you

could find yourself stuck forever yeah

like you said you know it’s it’s simple

but it doesn’t make it easy I think

that’s an important distinction I did

say it was simple I never said it was

easy

you talk about this whole process in in

your courses in your books and is there

something that you’ve learned through

the years that people do or repeat often

that you see many people making the

mistake of that you you think is common

one very common mistake that people make

and I make it myself is that we believe

the world is real but you know there is

this thing and it happened to me and I

didn’t have anything to do with it the

world is real but it is not the reality

it is a reality and we constructed that

a reality with our mental chatter and

our mental models and if we don’t like

the way the world is then we can

deconstruct the parts of it that are not

working and reconstruct it and we can do

this again

and again this is simple I’ve explained

explicit to you in 30 seconds or less

but this is something that actually

would solve a great many problems that a

great many people have and they never

recognize that there is such a simple

answer to their salute such a simple

solution to their problems a lot of this

is reinforced by the people around us

the people that yes are close to us by

you know yeah get that promotion and you

know I find many people when they do get

that promotion or that raise they’re

much of much less you know happy if

that’s their goal they’re much less

content with their lives well after this

idea of some arbitrary accomplishment

that they placed in front of them

absolutely correct I want to ask you

about you talked about mastery and

different masters that you studied was

there someone that you gained the most

from

oh yes I’ll give you a couple what are

the people who had very very profound

influence of me was an Indian sage

called Ramana Maharshi and if I had to

pick a single figure who I’d say was a

seminal influence on me that would be

Ramana Maharshi two other people who had

a profound impact to me one is a Jesuit

priest his name is father Anthony de

Mello and the other is Baba Ram Dass who

wrote the book be here now which is one

of the big books to come out of the

counterculture revolution of the 60s and

he that and the teachings of rambha

still have a profound impact on me and

there are many others and for the others

what I would recommend to your readers

is go to my website which is

www.hyken.com the manifesto and in there

I have is a bibliography and a section

of that bibliography is called

life-changing books and that will give

you a list of thinkers who have

influenced me doctor I found this

conversation really fascinating and if

there’s someone listening to the show

that is focused on that outcome

dependence and they’re looking for that

that next push for their job their their

their career oriented and what do you

say to that that type of thinking what

do you say to that mental model what I

would say is hey listen the important

thing is not whether you get that job or

that promotion or whatever it is you’re

looking for the important thing is do

you have a deep sense of well-being are

you anchored in that the knowledge that

you’re okay you have always been okay

and you always will be okay and that is

where you want to get into and getting a

job or not getting the job either way is

not going to get you there that is

something that you have to realize

internally focus your attention on

trying to get to that space and the job

situation will take care of itself just

one last question here you know I want

to talk about gratitude when this

this to me is very important to you

really bring this up and talk about this

you mentioned this in your book and in

your work you know how important is it

for us to be just simply grateful for

the things in our lives I think that

it’s extremely important for us to be

grateful in my book are you ready to

succeed I have a whole section on

appreciation and gratitude and I want to

go to the question that you just asked

me you said how important is it for us

to be grateful for the stuff that

happens to us or the stuff that we have

that’s a very good starting point but

it’s only a starting point because

whatever you’re grateful for can be

stripped from you

so you’re grateful for good health and

you get hit by a truck and become a

quadriplegic you’re grateful because you

have a home to live over and you know

there is a tornado or a massive volcanic

eruption and your home is gone whatever

you’re grateful for can be stripped from

you so eventually I would like everyone

who’s on this podcast to be grateful

period to be grateful not grateful for

so this is actually an elaboration and a

further step it’s okay to be grateful

for something as a baby step is starting

point but eventually you want to be

grateful not grateful for I love it

doctor I really really appreciate your

time today sir where can working people

get to your work where can people get to

the website and find your work okay the

easiest way is for someone to go to my

website and that’s WWE raw Institute th

e REO Institute com and when they go

there there is a button called join our

community and if they click on that and

put in their email address and other

details then they will hear from me on

my website also is my blog and they can

you know it goes back a couple of years

and there are many many entries so they

can actually read my blog there and it

will periodically hear from me if

they like this podcast or the kind of

views that I am talking about I also

have programs both online and live

programs and details of that or on my

website so if they find that this calls

to them they have an opportunity you go

deeper sure are there in any events

because I know you travel around a bit

are there any events that your speaking

at coming up there are always events

that I’m speaking yet some of them are

open some of them are closed and the

open events I will I do list on my

website if they’re not a mailing list

then they will hear about if they go to

be join our community button and click

it and if they register then they’ll

learn about my open events great we will

for sure direct people to that doctor

out thank you so much for your time

please visit dr. Rao’s site we will make

that link available for you below the

book is called are you ready to succeed

and Xavier you might want to direct them

to my other book also it’s called

happiness at work and happiness at work

has many more exercises as well we will

for sure do that dr. out thank you so

much again we are going to get out of

here thank you so much for listening you

will hear from us next week

you

you