Episode 21 – Rak Razam

welcome to the human experience podcast the only podcast designed to fuse your left and right brain hemispheres and feed it the most entertaining and mentally engaging topics on the planet as we approach our scent please make sure your frontal temporal and occipital lobes are in their full upright position as you take your seat of consciousness relax your senses and allow us to take you on a tip we are the intimate strangers thank you for listening my

name is Dave I’m calling in from Iowa I got an advance here for your podcast with Isaac white hop man that dude knows his stuff awesome job guys he tipped me to listen to you guys podcast so I subscribed and it’s in my new listening so thanks guys appreciate you guys are doing awesome but a big thanks to Dave from Iowa for calling in please do give us a call the number is 58 689 human we’d really love to hear from you that’s five 868 948 626 such a great interview

here with rock I think you guys will really enjoy hearing it to please you take a moment to donate it helps us keep the server running subscribe to our YouTube channel and follow us on Twitter hugely fun episode here guys thank you so much for listening the human experience is entering the galactic center of the galaxy my co-host dr. G is co-pilot our guest tonight is researcher author and journey a rock Rossum rock it’s an honor to have you

with us man welcome to hxp thank you it’s a pleasure to be it rock I find your work highly intriguing man i really just briefly could you tell us how you got into this this work how does one get into the fields of consciousness and spirituality in shamanism it’s probably usually through psychedelics I think that’s probably the starting point I don’t know I mean you know you can trace back personality types or I say you know not not jokingly relate to some most of

my friends I say we’re all the black sheep of the tribe I always seem to be someone who’s um I don’t know it may be been on the outside looking in no on the NSA say of the village shaman you have to be sort of you know of the world but not in it you need to be sort of on the edge to have that clearer perspective maybe that that also applies to a whole generation of sort of you know a tacos and shut-ins and you know cyber sort of

fiends who are massing data but for me personally I guess some it’s just been a journey of some exploring my own consciousness and trying to figure out how that is embedded within a larger collective consciousness and a planetary organism and you know just ideas like this I guess a lot of the starting points we can all go back to you know the great parents who terence mckenna who in many ways is is i guess like the you know the moses of the old testament

he’s sort of the the prophet who brought the the Ten Commandments down in you know in chiseled in stone or in this sense what he did is really give a whole trans linguistic palette of language and of ideas to a whole generation studying in the well the 70s and 80s and 90s I first encountered him in the 90s and was immediately you know sort of mimetic alee bro mask by him and really a lot of his ideas I still fine and I find so many other

commentators as well that I speak to my global travels we’re all still using the same sort of syntax and sort of linguistic all sort of glue to frame a lot of the the ideas that Terrence did and I think the challenge now is to go beyond Terrence and to see a lot of his things as signposts and as ideas and as you know catalyst it to get us to look at this these these realms and that the same invisible canvas but then to really go deeper with our own explorations that

our own understandings of them all yeah yeah man um so that that actually is perfect and digging right in here how do you how do you feel about that which is was once kind of underground and considered counterculture but now is starting to become a sort of bleeding edge and filtering into the mainstream like for example the work that the maps institute is doing in graham hancock and dennis mckenna you’re kind of taking on this this role as well how do you feel

about that hmm i don’t know if i’ll give you a single water answer maybe at the end of my summation here but this is probably i would say this is the challenge of our times and you know it’s it’s not just with previously esoteric material like psychedelics or shamanism as the world is becoming a globalized circuit basically arm it’s shining light on all the little nooks and crannies and the hidden things and so we’re seeing indigenous cultures and subcultures

around the world be exposed into the light of the globalized society and I think this is a necessary process but as we all know the globalized process is being orchestrated by the powers that be and the moneyed interest in the elites and the eventual one-world government type of streams are I’m not going to get into this information but if you really research the facts if your region noam chomsky if you know your geopolitical situation it’s really being orchestrated

for the people that own the system you know like what I see happening beyond that or deeper than than the socio-political stratum is it there there is a well I like to say a galactic season there’s a seasons of their seasons of consciousness and his reasons why things happen in certain times and so the times we’re living in now appear to be coming full circle back towards some type of well my shorthand is it’s like four bar galactic Godhead consciousness

it’s like we’ve come through that whole 2012 meme which was really pointing towards larger calendrical systems of time and world ages and so this world age that were coming into is the start of a new world age which needs a new mythology by the way and which is developing rapidly around us as well but this process of transformation this process of integration is tricky because especially with things like you know I huascaran shamanism to a large degree we

can talk about this publicly it is becoming very public information but then it becomes a fad it becomes a commodity because you know you look at I talked about this a lot i did a talk at the samara shamanic medicine conference here in in australia but a month ago and i did an update on something i wrote for gram Hancock’s website a last year which was the state of the vine like the state of ayahuasca 2015 and if you look at just the the cultural demographics you

have you know it’s it’s it’s being used you know by a large large subculture of people across the world which is great in some senses because it’s actually having to grow the vine and be sustainable on some levels but it’s creating supply and demand issues and other levels but just on a media level in a cultural level while the necessary healing of indigents like I was can provide and the the opening up of consciousness to a larger perception of

the world and of the web of life and of this idea of spirit you know and not just a consumerist materialist sort of groove that’s all good and well but but servicing that on a large scale like Lindsay Lohan about a year ago last March or so she tweeted 28 million of her followers that she had done ayahuasca to to cope with the emotional trauma and processing issues around her miscarriage which that’s what’s beautiful it’s a beautiful example of

someone who needed the medicine and took it but the issue and the larger issue is 8 million of her followers now ayahuasca marie-claire followed it up all the Hollywood celebrity rags followed it up as well and the the brand of ayahuasca is now so hip and so such a cultural fed to the New York Times last May did a write-up of it in you know it’s some it’s lifestyle section and it’s like so the issues around this is the West has always and in all ways in

recorded history Western culture when the so-called first world encountered third world cultures of the old world and you know discovered that they were using plain antigens and then try to eradicate them because they thought it was the work of the devil or kill off the populations as well it’s it’s always been trying to suppress plant antigens and suppress this guy and consciousness and there’s more perhaps feminine consciousness of this perception of

mother nature and the wait it’s one species amongst it but as this is coming to light what what culture is always done for at least the last five six hundred years of recorded history every plane antigen that it hasn’t just suppressed if it’s absorbed it going all the way back to stuff like tobacco it has commodified it and it is diluted it and it is taken the sacred out of it and it’s made it a product and so the danger we’re facing now across the board from

ayahuasca and with Scylla Sabin even with even with spirituality you know as a package lifestyle choice even with meditation even with um you know entrainment with EEG machines and gaming industry of of getting into you know Alpha Beta Gamma Delta states of mind all the potentials which are necessary and a fantastic catalyst all of them are there the danger at the moment is if the lock on the culture the cultural lock is still there about the commodity in the

commodification of these things it can take anything and the system will absorb it if it can’t destroy it if it can’t ignore it you know the old saying is first they ignore you then they fight you you know then road NE win yeah but the thing is who is the way who wins because what happens in that scenario is if there’s an absorption by the culture where you get absorbed by the larger culture and the culture because we can’t destroy ignore you can’t destroy you so

we’ll let you in but how we do that so if you look at things like the medicalization of psychedelics this is wonderful on one level and it’s totally supported I’ve been a huge supporter of maps for many years and they’re doing some great work there’s just the the the Beckley foundation in the UK has just launched a crowdfunding campaign for the world’s first you know quantitative electroencephalography scans the EEG scans and MRI of LSD study of someone on

LSD to understand those regions of the brain I’ve read a lot of flack online about people going well that’s reductionist mechanical science why would we want to do that I think no we need to do that we need to embrace both hemispheres both sort of paradigms of the mechanical designs and the spiritual and the sacred but the question is will science and will the Western materialist view point will it even acknowledge spirit will it acknowledged the sacred

you know but I think that we need to continue along their path and we need to we need to have focus and we need to have awareness as we do this but this is this is the great the great challenge I think of our generation I see the danger is that medical psychedelics as Rick doblin’s the founder of maps as own vision basically is to have registered psychologist dispensing MDMA or LSD or antigens or psychoactive drugs in a clinical setting which may be nicely

tempered and have mood lighting or even you know natural sounds but it’s not it’s not the charmin and it’s not it’s not the full connection to spirit you know if you even go all the way back to the 60s and some of the suicide and testing LSD place and the Harvard Divinity School test that they did you know it’s it’s the fact that they’ve done recent studies with source of our mushrooms again looking at this issue of invoking the divine and this sense of

the numinous there’s something greater than just our idea of medicine and in indigenous cultures in in Peru when they say la medicina they mean something very different from what we mean by it they mean that there’s a spirit in it and what Western culture sees is it is a drug and they can patent it and they can control it and they can use it to commodify and perhaps be a soma for the masses so you know there is a potential if we look at the world situation my god

it’s I mean really it’s planet although it’s planet oil and you know there’s global surveillance by all the major nation states there’s repression there’s all the things that the horrors of the world are very very stark and obvious now which hopefully is a catalyst for people to rise up and take control of their world and to do that we need a clear consciousness and that’s where these substances can be of value but the danger is they can also be

absorbed and they can be used against us to to be a soma for the masses so Rach I fell in love with your Palenque Norte lecture from last year and the concept you had up going back to the garden and that we’re getting the entheogens that we deserve and we’ve had this kind of touch-and-go psychedelic Renaissance so what stage you see us at in this just a tional archaic revival we’ve been in since say the end of the in Victorian

area we hit the Star in the 60s why are the plant medicines and these particular entheogens such as ayahuasca what we deserve right now this is a really good question actually before I get to that bit what I’d like to say is I really love to encourage you know the generation of psychonauts who are out there to use a lot more of this type of perspective to use you know I don’t know maybe it’s not statistical analysis but to use logic and to use you know

cultural sort of appreciation and maybe anthropological perspectives to use some of the tools that different different arts and sciences have given us and apply it to the psychedelic dimension and the shamanic dimension because this is what we need to do we no longer need Terence Mckenna he’s done the job he needed to do and you know what I said what I say is that my little shorthand is in the in the 50s and 60s you know LSD opened the mind in the 80s and

through the 90s ecstasy opened the heart in the Nauts and on into the 21st century we’re now seeing this burgeoning and really rapidly developing culture around antigens which you know all the other drugs are still there but the thing is they don’t have the cash aid that they used to because they’re not needed we had the acid revolution and the acid revolution totally obliterated the white picket fence mentality of 1950s Americana right and of the Western world

and it shifted things it paralleled a lot of social movements around civil rights and you know gender and identity and sexuality and and those things were already happening we can’t say that acid per se instigated those things but what it did is it changed the consciousness of a mass of people a spike you know and that was the problem that it created this equal and opposite reaction when the establishment had to you know attack

it aggressively like it was a cancer but it was a virus it was a cultural virus of consciousness that was instigated by LSD now a lot of people were responsible for setting up the vectors of that virus you know there was the CIA effort for one as a major instigator the intelligence er people like I’ll just Huxley and all the way back to el Hubbard but the issue is it changed its shifted consciousness I have a you know I deeply researched all the psychedelic

history and written about it and I’ve got a few unpublished non-fiction books about this as well i did a young a biography of burials like the the acid chemistry alchemist of the 60s and in that i was looking at all the the history of the 60s and there’s a lot of synergy around things like why LSD was on the west coast you know who was switching on basically the the ground 0 for 4 psychedelics in the west coast in the late 50s through to the 60s was a

you know around San Francisco but even a bit further south Palo Alto which became Silicon Valley and you’ve got to ask why why did the CIA and people say why did the CIA from like 19 you know 49 onwards experiment with LSD looking for a truth serum originally but then starting to our fund all these medical establishments and the psychoanalysis and psychiatrists and pump out LSD into the culture its support all the way through to the late 60s into the haight

ashbury azula’s and those different factions and different reasons within those different factions but my theory is someone you know the Central Intelligence which is above the agency itself someone they were doing and I think what they were doing is that they were stretching the envelope of our consciousness back in the in the 60s they knew it was all the big experiment but what it did it was almost like LSD was a psychic lubricant and what it allowed what it

brought through was what we have now we have an ability for our minds and this you know is the Intelligencia and the scientists and the computer technicians and all the companies of what became Silicon Valley they were all using it for a creativity jug drunk you look at dr. James Federman who’s written about this and he did that the last level stays with LSD but he was specifically looking at creativity and how it was being used while it was still legal by

the big corporations and basically you know if you’re going to bring in something like computing which they’ve been working on since you know the Lisa 40s with all the original computers but it was such a big shift in consciousness that they they needed you know more people’s consciousness to shift and so basically this psychic lubricant meant that like things then we have this understanding like you know cloud computing distributed computing social

networks it’s nonlinear consciousness and I think LSD broke the way it really pierced the veil of 1950s linear time and consciousness and even I mean you could even you know argue maybe that’s just what a morphic level but I would say it’s on a very physical level with select individuals in different establishments and then in the culture itself so that shifted culture and so we don’t need that shift anymore that and what what I’m saying is even the players

who on a socio-economic political level we’re doing it for their vested interest what I’m saying is there is always a higher consciousness there is always more Central Intelligence so there is there is a cosmic consciousness happening with these plants then is that we’re saying well I believe it and anyone who’s really had a you know a deep experience on any psychoactive substance that gets beyond their own ego these things dissolve the ego when it’s

dissolves you pull into a larger consciousness whether you’re out in nature and you realize nature is alive or you you know whatever levels you go to but so you know LSD totally shifted the psychic on back in the 50s and 60s and then what happened it petered out you know it grounded people went back to the earth it shifted things but then there was equal and opposite reaction not just from the establishment making it illegal and demonizing hippies but then funnily

enough you go through you know psychedelic rock 70s as it then disseminated further into the culture of people who didn’t even take acid but the the mind frame are changed you know and that you can see that reflected in the cultural cues of you know the music and the fashions and things like that but then of course after that it’s swung back again because things go in a binary pulse and they have all the the the Yuppie error and the money error and the

big wall stree there and the start of the globalization era so the powers that be were orchestrating socially engineering to bring things back to their agenda but there’s always a higher intelligence but in that time we had the ecstasy boom and we know that you know that basically even though it’s been around since the 30s or whatever and such as children helped popularize that in the late 70s and there was a cultural vector of where that came through why

did it come through then this is what I’m saying if you look at like four dimensional space-time and step up and look look at the dominoes falling and see the patterns right it was I really believe the culture gets the catalyst and the antigens or the drugs or the you know the consciousness browsers as I called them in my plane cane auto talk it deserves because we’re being sculpted we’re being sculpted to play a larger role and this is what they believe in

shamanism that the humans are here on the earth to be a bridge between heaven and earth and we’re basic like energy transformers and we’re transforming energy and all the species are we can see that we can see the way that the species you know that we might study will take you know a chaotic system and create order from it and it’s changing around energy so there’s there’s a larger forces at work so the 80s had all the ecstasy you know generation and they

had the second summer of love in the UK and you know that was all basically burst from Goa where because the acid retain and the the core hippies who went over to India and Goa retained and made the music and you know it burst basically what we have now global festival electronic music culture and instead of being that spike of like a concentrated million people marching on the Pentagon trying to levitate it you had like a hundred million people

across the planet quietly pursuing recreational use of psychedelics but acid never became a big threat to the establishment again and it wasn’t needed by the culture it’s still a beautiful substance if used properly and it’s a great initiation tool but it’s it’s not getting the media attention it’s not a big thing culturally is just it’s this is like it’s over it’s kind of a romantic notion this idea that you know in 1945 your Oppenheimer is inventing

the atomic bomb and then on the other hand you’ve got the invention of LSD so it’s almost a type of balance right it’s almost quaint it is a quite and you know a lot of the old-school psychedelic commentators will tell you this story in its gotten round it’s become part of the firmaments of psychedelic mythology because there is a romanticism to it and there’s also perhaps something to it because one of the original natives of

that theory that the fact that acid was sort of like an antidote to to the atomic bomb and you know that I think the Kennish order hand is which much which mushroom do you want to bloom at the end of history the atomic you know bomb cloud mushroom or or that the souls urban mushroom but one of the original natives of this whole idea about the LSD was variously and there’s a lengthy passage in one of Timothy Leary’s books and library flashbacks or high priests

when he describes a meeting with Alice Lee talking about this theory and that’s how it basically got out Ashley was an amazing you know super brain and genius even before LSD non LSD he was you know the alchemist really like a very spiritual warrior but also an amazing intelligence and he studied this thing and he studied the earth and the earth has as a living organism which we now you know back in the 60s this wasn’t we didn’t see the first shot of the Earth

from outer space until nineteen sixty-nine it appeared on the whole earth catalog by Stewart Brand the famous sort of causing a hippie you know catalogue book and 1969 wasn’t or NASA took those photos it’s not until we get outside the box and look back I mean we can really see for what I views and so that idea of the earth is an organism really only came in right at the end of the 60s into the 70s but Ashley had this idea of the AG study

that you know from scientific point of view and we only got the james lovelock the ex NASA scientist started to promulgate this idea of the Gaia hypothesis only in the 70s right at the idea of you know Gaia the great goddess of the earth and the earth is a living organism nowadays they call it whole systems theory which really flatlines the romanticism around a bit aside near that you know the earth is not just a living organism it’s an interconnected

interdependent entity which has all these sub programs within it they’re all supporting life you know and it’s obvious now but for some reason just like almost like the myth of um you know when we have this movement that I think it’s Australia but no is it you know the myth of like weaning indigenous people you know see the boats coming you know from where yeah yeah Colin and I can’t I can’t see the boats because it doesn’t fit their paradigm it doesn’t go into

their world their belief structure yes it’s almost the same with us we didn’t see the earth or Western culture because all indigenous cultures have always retained this idea they live on the earth they understand the rhythms of the earth they quite often take psychoactive substances of the earth secretes specifically for engagement with herself at higher consciousness levels but Western culture which had atrophied in distance itself from spirit and from the

earth um didn’t understand it worth was living organism so Ashley you know really dropped this idea but he also took on board the science and there’s you know different layers to the earth you get into the upper atmosphere the ionosphere and different different levels they’re actually blocking out the the UV rays and the deadly you know deep space radiation you know and so without those upper envelopes of protection we would be we would be out life on earth

would not be possible you know it’s a very very delicate balance to have life on it a perfect equilibria and you know physicists say these science acknowledges this and they just dumb they just excuse it away with it with a phrase you know and say well it’s just it’s just this we can’t explain it let’s not think about it too much but it’s quite magical that life exists at all those upper levels of the atmosphere show that the the one

that the womb of Earth fears is radiation so as Lee you know took that along to the next extension and said Jesus like imagine if you’ve got a human body and some microbes in your body start to like you know bomb you with radiation it’s like it’s like it’s like chemotherapy from the inside but it’s like in cancer is like that the human race as a viral cancer cell gone rogue from the web of life and fallen out of the right relationship with the planet

is now dropping atomic freakin bombs it’s splitting atoms and if radiation is the one thing that the earth fears so that that’s equivalent to a cancer in the Earth’s system so what is the earth going to do what is higher intelligence going to do what does an interdependent um you know equilibrium system do it counterbalances and so his theory was and I must say it’s romantic but there’s something to it and I think again the challenge of this generation of

academics and scientists and and just psychonauts is to look more deeply at these type of issues and apply more rigorous you know intelligence and science and systems to it to see how much versity there is but in the the mythology is the thing it’s like albert hofmann 1938 just on the cusp of war you know in Switzerland which is neutral of course with the rise of Nazis albert hofmann documented on record was in Switzerland and especially basil Basel

Switzerland was in medieval times the home of the alchemists you know they know very well all about um not just you know the lead to gold ideas but they know very well about altered consciousness there was st. Elmo’s fire which was you know the Ergo which would develop on the barley rye in the bread and in Middle Ages people would be tripping balls and getting gang gangrenous legs and dying and stuff but the thing is it was quite well known it

was quite well known that there were fungus is out there that would cause you to have altered states especially in Basel which was um you know hundreds and hundreds of years of esoteric knowledge and you know is only around 1600s or so that science and basically mysticism split you know you look at certain scientists back then or what there would be now configured scientists and though they were Alchemist you know so that the heritage and the legacy who is there

there’s there’s also this idea there was a novel written called st. Peter’s snow you can get it on ebay i think the author’s name is pearl it’s something like that but basically the plot of st. peter snow is this basically analog of a go ergo rye is developed by a modern scientist turned into a drug and switches on the world right they came out in 1922 so way before 1938 and it was it was read by all the Intelligencia it was very well-known book at the time

basil knew all about this Albert Hofmann was in a basically a spiritualist group because he was a very spiritual man at his 2006 birthday hundredth birthday symposium and Basel Switzerland again which I was present at he told us all about his childhood he told us his secret origin he basically said when he was six you know in in Basel Switzerland living in the countryside elevated now this is before EMF frequencies when everyone like indigenous people still

have now have a more of a tune sensitivity to nature and so he basically said he was a mystic he was a mystic child going through the fields the colors would saturate his consciousness would alter right and he was used to altered states and he retained that sensitivity and that’s not something he would talk about in chemical circles or he’s he’s in a public discourses around that but he admitted that to us and that’s on the public record from Basel Switzerland

it’s also on the public record that he was in basically a spiritualist groups and spiritualism was very huge in the 19th century into the early 20th century and you know as I said there’s a legacy of this this around around Switzerland so the question is you have a chemist who is you know an immaculate chemist a very accomplished professional in his field who was experimenting with a guy right you know purportedly to look at you know helping with childbirth issues

and and and things like that but who knows very well what what happens with override derivatives and psychoactive effects 1938 with the rise of Nazism is in a spiritualist group in the novel the the analog novel written 922 this is exactly what happened a chemist invents this thing has a spiritualist group and then you know decides do they let it out out to the world and by 1938 I think that the the the the thinking of some people within the psychedelic community

is that the bicycle day story is again mythological and it is the cover story for albert hofmann because when it is translated into english when he says ok 1938 i made 25 variations of LSD I had no what they had no effect you know tested them on animals whatever couldn’t see anything happening put them on a shelf in one day April 16 maybe you know nineteen nineteen forty-three um oh my god I had a strange presentiments that’s the English translation in German it’s

actually a lot stronger it’s like worgen hot something like that I’m pretty mispronouncing it but in German it means more than a presentment it means like a voice or it means that he was guided because he’s a mystic and he is sensitive it’s something told him to go back to the LSD so on that level there’s already it’s deviating from the scientific you know sort of spectrum but what people have said David Nicholls who has sort of taken up Alexander Shogun’s

preeminence as a the world’s like it’s leading chemist and it’s work with the American government in looking at psychedelic chemicals making them for the FDA he did a 2004 mine States talk looking at Albert Albert Hoffman’s first April 16 trip it lasted something like two hours it was very unusual it didn’t hit any of the right beats if he had have got dosed it didn’t last long enough the characteristics were there people are thinking either Albert

Hofmann had a mystical spontaneous experience like a schizoid type of experience or a sensitivity to the thing but it doesn’t add up the other political issue is with the rise of Nazism and Hitler conquering everything around albert hofmann may have chosen to shelf the lsd-25 knowing that it was psycho acted and wait until the tide of the war was turning in 43 but what happened this time as well to come full circle this story if that the manhattan project

is taking off the you know the Americans are working with the atomic bomb they’re doing the testing the first manhattan project testing of the bomb and the first album 16 announcement by albert hofmann that the fls d exist in the world was six months apart and so the psychedelics folklore says perhaps these higher intelligence when it couldn’t get through the white picket fence mentality of the world when the garden and the plant entheogens and mother nature had

been totally you know like concreted over and distance from by majority of people living in cities and that the powers that be in the military industrial complex it couldn’t get through the garden couldn’t get through on that level so perhaps the sensitivity of this misty chemist gave him the strange presentment albert go back to your discovery go have a look perhaps he was guided on that level as an antidote to the bomb because the only thing that

the earth actually really is deadly it fears you know there can be a giant asteroid fall on the earth it’ll be a short but the earth will self regulating it will shrug that off over a couple of centuries or whatever but radiation is the big killer so in a self equilibria lysing system which we know the earth is ah it’s got a can of balance and if something you can see this map on youtube there’s a video on youtube it shows you all the atomic bomb blasts for

the last you know seventy years or so 67 years and it’s just it’s just endemic it’s just like Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing it was such a pressure on the planetary system that yes i think the planet must have you know bounce back and forth back and there we have LSD you know it’s like the Henry T Ford of psychedelics is coming out on the assembly line it works and you know the most minut quantities and it got out to the world and it shifted

the consciousness of dominated culture which was you know are responsible for attacking the planet from within and then you had the rise of which was already happening but you have the rise of the anti-war movement of people you know who were changing their consciousness and in on a socio-political level the argument is a year at the CIA gave LSD to the masses because I wanted to detour or defang or stop the anti-war movement because once you took LSD you didn’t

bother I don’t believe that’s necessarily true the turn on the tune in drop out thing came a bit later in the chronology but you know it changed the consciousness of people to really join the anti-war movement on some levels but to to steer a different course with with their culture and with civilization so there’s lots of mythopoetic romantic you know strands to to look at here and I really hope that are some cultural anthropologists to dig deeper with it

because there’s a lot of unanswered questions yeah wow wow man I didn’t even really have to ask you any my question just ripped through all okay so to bring to bring it back and yeah I agree completely there is this global resurgence of these tools as medicines and we do seem to have this there there does seem to be nature doesn’t create junk and and we you know the planet is kind of taking care of itself but just to bring you back into the sphere of

things man how how do you think ayahuasca tourism is affecting what’s happening why do you think people are more drawn to going into the jungle and taking this medicine acid in the sixties ecstasy in the 80s 90s and then plan and engines predominantly spearheaded in the public consciousness by ayahuasca in the north so we get to this stage over white picket fence 50s change of consciousness in the 60s you know opening of the heart

chakra in the 80s and we know that MDMA basically became commodified and there’s now you know five bucks and your local pub everywhere in the Western civilization it gets absorbed and commodified but on a certain level something shifted there as well in like the morphic field or the you know the field of humanity in there but we then became ready to go back to the to the jungle to the garden and we were ready for plant entheogens where you know

we weren’t ready to go back to the jungles in the 50s or 60s or 70s some very you know early adopters did you know that William Burroughs went down to pull copper and the jungles of Peru in the 50s and took a huascaran ran screaming fleeing from the cosmic wet vagina that he experienced on the on the astral level you know because that’s a power afraid but it’s something along those lines sadly patent-pending said but we weren’t ready for it was so out

there the idea of nature you know as a consciousness and as an alive sort of sentient being that actually we’re embedded in it’s the equivalent of realizing we are microbes within a larger body and that we are not the center of things you know it’s totally changes the whole human centric perspective it’s like we are in the mother and we are one species amongst many so anyway so it’s taken until you know the late 20th century and now into

the 21st century where there’s been this slow trickle of early adopters going back to the jungles because it was the time for it and it was ready for it and the garden was ready to reimburse and the culture was ready to go looking for it and so you know for twink there’s been I was collages now in Peru for over 20 years almost 25 years now and so there’s been a slow catering to the needs of the Western seeker in a more tourists type dynamic where originally

it was a very you know Terrance and Dennis McKenna up the jungle with letrero in 1971 you know it was a huge expedition that you had to be crazy to do it we’re now I just have to jump on a plane and you’re fully catered to and get taken from the airport but this has been a slow cultural evolution and as the socio-economic sort of you know vectors develop around it it’s become big money so number one I think that it’s time for it it’s time for

reintroduction to planetary antigens because it’s not just about so-called drugs or recreational States or whatever it’s about medicines and the biggest thing about the medicines is there is a spirit in the medicine and there is a spirit in us and the two spirits is where the healing occurs many many people are basically starting to revere and dfi ayahuasca you know the goddess the madre i have done that too and there is you’ve gotta pay

respect you know if you go to a foreign country and visit the Queen you know you do your little curtsy and do you bow but on the inside you know that you are a sovereign being too so basically you know all the plant antigens I believe are sort of subprograms of the gain intelligence so the gain intelligence is the macro program right and then there’s subprograms and you know even this language which now we know from computers and my earlier argument was

that the psychedelics stretched out you know the psychic lubricant stretched our consciousness to bring in terms because there’s his whole thing if you don’t have a language to anchor the ideas it’s like a lucid dream it comes and it goes and you don’t you come out of it you can’t remember or you can’t describe it if you can’t describe the feeling it’s lost and that’s in 1984 that’s all well you know that’s what they were doing to

try to one dilute the language down so people couldn’t even understand the word rebellion or revolution or or that there was something missing they couldn’t put their finger on it so what entheogens fee-only silicide burn especially is it helps as a linguistic or catalyst it helps us you know stretch out our language which is part of our consciousness to anchor the feelings and anchor the experience and so with ayahuasca I’m talking about this fear of

medicines there are many many different plan antigens and I believe that you look at things there’s different bioregions on the planet and looking at the planet is a macro organism it’s like mapping the human body say like well where are the calcium deposits in our body where are the white blood cells you know where’s the iron go how does the blood pump is a system to it there’s a rhythm to it there’s a reason for it so same with the macro organism of the

planet so you know we should not be taking uranium out of the ground and building freaking nuclear bombs from it it’s ridiculous it’s a double double whammy not plus good it’s in either the Australian Aboriginals are believe that the uranium is one of their sacred substances they know it they don’t call it uranium but its orbit where they’re digging it up here in Australia there the Sacred Lands and their sacred because it has a substance

in the land which changes the energetic and they feel it they know it they know the energetics of that bioregion sit in a similar way the buyer regions and the energetics are shaped in a causal relationship with the planet to secrete NT agents this is both what bear hours Lee said as well and berries just you know one of the prime founders of modern psychedelic culture and he doesn’t get a lot of airplay a lot of his ideas some

of his ideas at least were taken up by terence mckenna who repeated and reformatted them they both had this idea of planetary XO pheromones they’re saying that what if nature look at different species and we understand that nature doesn’t just talk in vibration sound patterns she talks in chemical languages she secretes these pheromones that certain insects and you know secrete to engage with the plants you know I was talking some to get someone

the other day and I was saying that the DMT containing acacia’s here in Australia there’s a certain variety which are in synergy and partnership with the ants and the ants take the little bud of the plant and they carry it because it’s got something they want in it and they bury it underground and that’s where the DMT acacia’s are ready and when fires go through they germinate and they it’s incredibly synergistic there’s all these different species that

work in concert it’s not just Darwin’s very flatlined linear non psychedelic idea of survival of the fittest that is at work within the system but that’s a 3d system you’ve gotta look at a four or five D system and sissy the cooperation models and the synergy any other way that nature works with all her or her creatures because they’re all part of it that nature clothes herself in the skin of the species I mean that that’s it that’s really what is happening right

that’s the macro object and that’s how she self regulates so the medicines of the psychoactives mckenna analysis theory was that they are EXO pheromones they’re working to regular some of her other species including the humans and some of the other higher mammals and primates that tape them and they’re there for a reason you know and things like the Silla cyber mushrooms they often are certain strands of them grow in regions which have been

devastated and logged where the trees have been logged and in the wood chips is where the mushrooms grow and Paul Stamets has the the famous mycologist has this whole you know riff on all this it seems to me that the earth is bio remediating itself it’s repairing itself by secreting these things and as part of that remediation it’s trying to fix the consciousness of the creatures cutting down the forest not just to weave the soil together and to bind the soil which

it does with certain plants like latonya and other plants which work really well the mushrooms are actually the first line of guy and defense to change the consciousness of the invasive species and this is why you need that we need to step up and look from a large perspective about what’s going on so with this understanding of antigens and what their role is in the planetary ecology their role is to engage with the species and you know talking of us

specifically we know that you know is what Terrans called Dominator culture it’s it’s out of control the monkeys are out of control and we are out of balance it’s connor squatty we’re out of balance with nature we don’t understand right relationship so all of the antigens are secreted in different bioregions and it’s very important that people in some senses get to know their local by our regions because you know Australian Aboriginals have this understanding of

the land and most indigenous cultures do you know and a deep resonance with it and you know if you’re born on the land you are indigenous to the land as well or if you spend lots of time there and your energy is a meshing with the the energetic fields fields of the land you are becoming part of that landscape it structures your energy it structures even your language you look at certain tribal cultures and you know their language is is either speeded up maybe

in cities or slow down in the country and its shaped on that level but the the antigens that are available locally to you and this changes with climate you know you look you look at different parts of the world have had entheogens previously throughout the historical record and the climate has changed and you know that they’re not there anymore but the earth keeps rolling it over and changing and growing more antigens so ayahuasca

has been a very successful planetary avatar working on behalf of the guy in mainframe and she’s not the only one so she’s been getting all the press specifically because she’s a very effective healer now there’s lots of different angles to this and lots of different levels of discourse we could talk about in many indigenous cultures in South America ayahuasca was traditionally just the benefit officers carpet cabo vine and that’s because it’s

a you know it’s a very good cleansing agent it’s a purgative it cleans out any intestinal bugs that people in the pan amazon region may have that’s specifically why they were really using it and the curanderos or what we call them the shamans they would open up perhaps their energetic or visionary capabilities to travel on the astral and inter dimensional planes but they would do that on behalf of their patients the patients wouldn’t do it in most many

regions of South America it’s only been this cultural cultural appropriation and this supply and demand where Westerners because all of our experiences in the 60s with say LSD and I would say our our relationship with television and our relationship with the cinema which is over a hundred years old you know when the cinema was first introduced and that people would see it they could not ascertain that it wasn’t real you know that’s see a train coming up at them on

on the black and white you know silent movie theater and they would scream and I would run in that day I had to get their heads around this magic of cinema because we are visually driven creatures and you know the the eye is directly connected to the neocortex yada yada yada but in Western culture we have relied upon the visionary component i would say because we have lacked and we have atrophied the feeling component the intimacy of feeling and intuition and

connection to spirit because if you’re a blind man and you’re connected to screwed and feeling this birds and feeling mother nature that’s all you need you don’t need to see it’s all about the feeling so many curandera even say now it’s not about the visions in the ayahuasca experience the visions are somewhat akin to if you’re in the dentist’s office and you’re getting operated on they put on the TV to distract you while the healing is

happening really that’s that’s that’s you know the baseline but because Westerners want the visions because that makes it real to them that makes it that they can believe it because they see it and this is only one stage of it it’s only that first wave of trust of going right something’s going on I can see it but you know essentially a majority of the visions according to my understanding of what new curanderos have told me a basically processing of

emotional catharsis and reactions and things happening within the body even when they’re seeing in two dimensional scenes and whatever sure maybe there’s that aspect but on some level great majority the visionary component is some reaction to the interaction of ayahuasca as it’s healing you it might be like it’s like a you know vegetal psychoactive screensaver going on there’s something happening maybe showing you stuff but whatever but they

all say it’s not about the visions it’s about going deeper with the work you know McKenna had this same riffin about talking about DMT it was like if you if you get to the level of like the DMT elves or whatever they’re saying yes yes watch watch look look it’s like no like get beyond them they’re sort of like holding your attention so you don’t go deeper into the experience there’s something deeper than that and that’s where the really interesting stuff lies

so this idea of medicine in the West is basically they understand drugs and they understand the neuro chemical component but in indigenous cultures and medicine means it has a spirit in it and the spirit engages with your spirit and that’s where the healing it just doesn’t do the work the spirit of ayahuasca isn’t necessarily healing you on a physical you know you’re a little level yes as a purge it of it is cleaning you out but in regards to your emotional

body and your traumas which then get buried in your energetic body it’s asking you to step up and to see yourself and to revisit your traumas and then to let go with them and it’s asking you to recognize you are the medicine within as well and so it’s a spiritual act and this is what the West is relearning the word spirit is only is only slight more respectable in Western culture than religion which is just gone let’s just drop religion no what no one likes that

term really even though originally it means and Latin to reconnect or to reweave which then makes us ask what are we reconnecting to its nature that’s the original religion is nature so where there’s all these stepping stones of understanding and I see the great majority of Westerners going down you know in search of ayahuasca in search of healing it’s not really a recreational thing but people in the West and curanderos of sin desayuno y mor bellows

assists in my book I awakenings that you know the majority of people he sees in the West might not have a physical sickness but they have a spiritual sickness a sickness of were they disconnected they don’t feel connected to their own spirits or to the world spirit and that’s the real key people are going through the ayahuasca experience to re-engage with this sense of spirit but you know if you don’t like that word change it whatever it is is

energetic you know template that is alive and vibrant and is at the core of your being and is at the core of the planetary being and not only they’re not separate you know we are the planet we are the clothes the skin of the planet where this thing that she has created and it’s all in concert and it’s all in in a play with each other that all the systems are engaging with another and there is a greater purpose even if we haven’t discovered it yet so rock from a

pure Darwinian perspective it seems that ayahuasca is operating outside of the confines of evolution and it’s not even really playing by its rules because you have the two plant components that combine the copy and the chick Runa and you know these plants that are similar to cannabis how cannabis manufactures molecules with the power to change our subjective experience reality whatever we call consciousness right so we know that the plants don’t want to be

consumed if they have saved bitter tasting outplayed compounds and plants that do want to be consumed as a reproductive strategy let’s say they have an abundance of sugars like apples but in my personal experience the ayahuasca brew blended from these two separate plants is to put it mod ly horrific and if anything it’s the only thing I’ve tasted that gets worse time do you feel there’s a sense of having to earn the experience or there’s

perhaps a barrier to entry that these two plants are exhibited to kind of safeguard its power because it seems that a the two compounds the DMT and the maoi do not occur together naturally in any single plant that I know of they do they do okay it is something widely reported no one wants to everyone out there harvesting there’s a certain acacia’s and certain plants that do contain both the the Mao and the the DMT and they have been used by indigenous

cultural people oh here’s the thing I agree you know there is a thing about the bitter plants but the funny thing it’s late it’s about alkaline in your body you know it versus the the acidic sort of food so weird in Western culture which cause sickness and cancers and things like that I mean the the reason why the bitter things are often thought of as the medicines is that they’re you know usually the things which are healthier for you ayahuasca is not

always better though I mean it can be sweet you can get some sweet ayahuasca is depending on the curandero and the brew and how they’re preparing it in there are natural sugars within ayahuasca and they just need to be maintained and not boiled off and not you know lost in the in the process but ultimately here’s the thing is there’s a commentator Gayle high pine who as a moderator on the ayahuasca dot com forums and you can look on the I

awakenings YouTube playlist because there’s a discussion with her from the the panel discussion after the film screened in Portland last year and she’s done a lot of research like an typological research on this and looked at the different tribes and its really only from the 1950s onwards that dmt in any large quantities was used by tribes in the in the at least the pan Amazonian or the Peruvian sort of region before that I mean there’s always anomalies and

Zois you know exceptions to the rule but it generally it seemed that the ayahuasca was called ayahuasca because it was just the vine and it has only being as mystique so use and then after the mosquitoes the Westerners and the gringos coming had been after the the qualities and a visionary component of the DMT experience in the brew that has been added more often to the bruise so traditionally as a medicine ayahuasca is not even had the dmt again it’s I

would say that it’s a supply and demand and a an issue about the the people that want it I mean you know most of the you know the Shipibo tradition which is predominantly what’s becoming the global perception of ayahuasca is is some this evolution from the Shipibo tradition they originally the curandero would drink on behalf of the patient but the patient would not drink ayahuasca and so you know that got changed around with tourism and so and so what’s happening

very quickly now the other thing i didn’t mention is that they know that your people also you know call I what’s good one of the short hands is jungle television and their culture because they’ve been embraced by basically globalization you know Peru prove there’s I huascaran Ecuador and Colombia and Brazil in many of those regions so it’s still either within the church as a centered I me aur in a more it’s a different voice it’s not it’s not driven

by tourism it’s really the Peruvian tradition which has proven successful as a global brand to bring ayahuasca to the world and within the Peruvian tradition it even arose even further down to pull carp or any ketosis and maybe tarapoto but essentially a Kiki toss so the Shipibo Cano bow tribe of that region had become the the brand ambassadors of ayahuasca if you will and you know what they’ve also because I’ve been trading their handicrafts and they’re woven

fabrics and very quickly you know in the Peruvian historical record they’ve gone through you know the mestizo Peruvians have been you know under assault by Westerners the rubber boom and the turn of the 19th 20th century the oil boom in the mid 20th century another ayahuasca boom so they have constantly been colonized and exposed to Western culture and if you go up the Amazon now in Peru you go up on a slow boat and there’ll be

no truckloads of inca kola on the boats and TVs and and it’s just it’s shocking it’s like you know not to say that people don’t deserve a certain level of lifestyle choice but it’s the worst aspects of Western culture are getting exported to the Peruvians and as part of that things like you know an understanding of television and even now the internet and things like they get very fastly get fed back into their cultural matrix and put into their their ceremony

so they described by Oscars as jungle TV or they will incorporate you know UFOs as part of the motifs that in their drawings and things that they say they see in the ayahuasca trance and they will change the beacons the constituents CEO of the brew of the the thing to make it more palatable to Westerners although put more DMT in there because that’s what the tourists want you know so what we think of ayahuasca and this is unbroken heritage and this sacred you

know experience it’s it is a sacred experience but it’s also basically it is the global sacrament and in the West or indeed the one globalized world which is dominated by Western interests it is a brand and it is a constructed brand which has been mutating and has been finessed and has been groomed just by cultural vectors to be not what it once was and so it’s still evolving you know they’re they’re seeing it seems to me that the consciousness itself seems to

be this this noble point at which we sort of filter information and as we use these substances to affect our evolution and and kind of transcend time space and bring in this these higher dimensions of consciousness we are moving more towards our true purpose and who we truly are we’re seeing that more and more and more how how do you think this is going to affect our goal as a species and within our our role on the planet and in the

galaxy you lost some very good questions I mean these are the key things we need to be talking about a psychedelic culture we shouldn’t be going around the same old circles and even as I said at the start like you know regurgitating the same tropes of like Makenna or Larry other they’re great building blocks but these are the we’re different culture now we’re needing to face and integrate these type of things so what is our purpose and what is the purpose of us

engaging with psychedelics or antigens what do they reveal to us and so what I would posit they reveal is that yes we are spiritual beings and we have an unbroken energetic connection the web of life we are embedded within a living and loving organism on some level that is regulating its species and it too has a purpose within the larger galactic energetic chain of being within the Galactic ecosystem and within the universal ecosystem and so you know it

does get bigger and bigger and it’s good not to lose track of things one of the most fascinating areas i find lately is like astrobiology and astrophysics where they’re getting some amazing you know proven scientific data that’s changing everything about their understanding of the galaxy as an organism and how that trickles down to our solar system and then to our the Sun and the earth and the relationships therein as you know

energetic sort of conduits and what’s really happening and so if you look at what our purpose is I don’t know III lean upon you know this Armenian philosopher gur Jeff if you heard of good GF and here’s his hollow idea of you know spirituals of ideas like energetically our our conscious labor on the earth where outputting energy you know we are energy receivers and transmitters with consciousness receivers and transit transmitters and

we are we’re processing energy here on in the planetary ecosystem along with the other species and so our conscious labor or our our energetic output this interdependent web of life and the web of life continues blunt beyond the planetary envelope you know it’s a huge Daisy wheel of cosmic creation where energy it’s all energy but its energy feeding and finessing itself through cascading sort of machinery of stellar systems and planetary systems and you

know at all it’s all life on some level of being um but here’s his hot air eager GF of us feeding the moon the moon fitting the Sun the Sun feeding the Galactic Sun and it goes on in you need to input output needs to be in equilibrium and there seems to be I that resonates with me in some of my experiences if you look at the IRA awakenings film which I do recommend you check it out re awakenings calm /watch these you know there’s a very deep 10

minute or so five meo dmt sequence back when it was legal done in peru in 2006 but in that that’s the only time i’ve done five meo and you know it’s it’s the you know they say it’s like the the the star on the top of the Christmas tree and all the other entheogens baubles on different branches of the tree but five meo is the white light tunnel godhead experience and in my experience that was true and you go into very deep bardot

states which have beyond normal tryptamine DMT levels of engaging with entities or visions or geometries it’s pure white light tunnel and my shorthand for it was it being fully conscious in this experience it was like the Super Hadron Collider of hyperspace right and I could feel and again this is it when you have a new death experience and the endogenous DMT in your body that you know they say at birth to death at childbirth whatever there’s different

times in your life when you have this naturally occur it’s this deep connection to spirit and what it shows you is the deep Bardo states of where we come from this is what I believed I was feeling this and we’re talking about visions and seeing and how Westerners are so hooked on the visions when you’re in the white light five meo experience there’s nothing and everything it’s the void and the void is pregnant with consciousness and energy and it looks

like nothing it’s the blank slate but it’s the void from which all things spring right it’s the God headers of the mystics have said all through all through time but the thing I felt and this is why we need to sharpen our feeling and now intuition and all these parts of our capacity of being human that Western dominated culture has suppressed so we can just have logic and have you know physical existence and be logical about it all that sort of more

feminine intuition and feeling is part of the human package and when you go into these spiritual realms and especially in the white light tunnel where there is nothing to see you all you’ve got left is your intuition and on that level it’s all about feeling and what I felt was that there was this force there was this omnipresent being and it was there was waves of any you comin at me and those waves of energy were interacting with my

energetic field and they were rippling through it and intersecting with it and then opening my filled up and it was like the drop was rejoining the ocean and it didn’t end there what I realized as the waves were coming at me they would hit they would cascade and what would come off me was my vibrational field memories like everything I installed within everything you experience you store within your energetic body if it’s there within you

its shape to its formed you and it’s left an impression like data on a hard drive right so imagine our soul with some type of energetic guest out hard drive and everything we experience is stored on it and when we go full circle in the reciprocal relationship with with these divine cosmic intelligence at the other who’s guiding everything it it feeds off the data if the data comes off us and goes we’re freed of the burden of everything that we have experienced and

we remember that we are it and we always were it and the wave-particle dynamic thing wavicle singh comes full circle and it’s like oh yeah that’s right I’m it I mean that’s what that’s what I felt right but the interesting thing which is often overlooked is that it was and feeding as a loaded you know term but it was reading the data and it was getting something from it it was growing from and this is a thing you know they say

that all the Mystics in the world to spend all their time trying to get back up to God and when you get there what do you find God is in the process of incarnadine coming down here and being us why I mean it because it’s a feedback loop we know nature is an equilibrium it works in cycles that works in rhythms no energy is lost and it’s very lean and elegant and efficient and what it does I liken it to the condensation cycle of

moisture it goes up it comes down it goes up that comes down it feeds through but in the process something is gained something more than just the entropic loss is created it’s information and information is basically the building blocks of life right and so the Godhead is feeding from incarnated as what appears to be individuated entities on the Material Plane because when they when the forms give way and the soul or the the energetic hard drive is released back

into the ocean of the Godhead it has gained more information and so it’s the feedback loop like I remember your original question but I hope that’s do you feel that we’ve reached kind of this palpable marker or nav point as a species deep down we’re kind of over this physical manifestation form and we’re yearning to move beyond it and gain more actual understanding we’ve kind of one this chapter of the life game will kind of done with the monkey

meat puppet body and we want to peek behind the veil and kind of talk to the wizard as an equal what what is the next chapter and tell you think I thinks I think that’s essentially a transhumanist wet dream and as I said no it’s like the Godhead is rapidly and always omnipresent Lee incarnating as matter as species as a lot right and so on one level you know you look at different mysticism xand you look at this idea of getting off the wheel of karma or of

getting back into the center of the target and rejoining you know God and not having to come back and in car day and Western culture that is relearning spirituality is having to figure out there its own game rules in its own contours in may be taking on board some other cultures you know spiritual spiritual maps at the same time but I think it comes back to again what we’ve discussed already is that because the traditional Western culture has been

distanced and devoid of a connection to spirit it creates an equal and opposite reaction of a hunger for spirit and so in that hunger we are engaging with entheogens we’re learning that the the you know the energetic interdimensional and galactic ecology is full of entities and spirits and you know life essentially and then there’s this romanticism to let go of the physical body but if you really have a spiritual practice and hone it and work at it it’s

about honoring the gift of the vessel to hold the divinity that we really are and you know I really believe this it’s like you know if if you have an acorn tree and you have just the the the seed of it and if it’s cut down early it hasn’t reached its full fruition and its full potential that has been invested in it through the life process you know and so I believe that the best way and the best approach to spirituality and the best use of

antigens I’m really getting to this stage and III think it’s an exciting stage of getting to work with modalities like yoga and meditation and you know rib breathing you know sort of the yogic breathing practices to hone my body and to make that a better vehicle because it also improves my spirit and my consciousness and then it also makes that consciousness and spirit more able to navigate and to be effective in those antigenic realms and I think that we’re

coming to a unification of very arcade cultural lessons and modalities I was going it’s improved and we had a yoga teacher who was great and she had this book on kriya yoga it’s like a it’s coming back to popularity it’s sort of the basis for Kundalini Yoga but it was like a thousand-page book and I was reading chapters over many days and they were describing what is consciousness what is presence what is the visionary state are what happens when you get your

simple things that are dispersed with the catalyst of antigens thing happens naturally with deep state of meditation and many of these cultural traditions all the way back to the original Sanskrit and the mudras and the asanas they practiced you know entheogenic states of mind they had their own catalyst and they were entwined with their practice it only became a left hand right hand path and politicized as the infusions fell out and went into the

press crafts and different traditions and then um you know they make this kept them with the with the modalities without the infant Jenny catalyst but the root origin of many many of basically all the world religions aware religions Abrahamic religions had Matthew Jenny catalyst and even in the Middle Eastern and different traditions of consciousness they had entheogenic traditions as well and it wasn’t about just using antigens or just using

consciousness modalities it was about together they are they have the same root structure and they are more effective and essentially i do believe as well that the end result is you know what kizi said in the 60s about you know can you pass the acid test it’s about graduating from the catalyst and being able to do it ourselves and what I feel is that we’ve only got like six to ten thousand years of recorded history and I feel that at some stage within the world

ages we did have the ability to endogenous Lee engage with these potentials we know that with the EEG and MRI scans I’ve done with substances like silicide burn LSD and ayahuasca in different tests they now have proven they switch off the default mode network in the brain these regional clusters of the brain which are engaged with maintaining the sense of ego and identity and when they switch those sections of the brain off the brain at

large receives more signal and it’s not the substance like Scylla sub and LSD is metabolized in the human body and brain within 19 minutes they’ve proved that in their 1960s you don’t usually feel the effects before half an hour so it’s not it’s not that the catalyst it’s our brains and so with the all of these things including ayahuasca seem to be training wheels from the planetary mainframe to go all right monkeys let’s do it one more time here we go I’ve been

working over generations to get you ready for this and so I believe the next step is endogenous it’s endo as Bruce Damer who’s an amazing mind would say and I’ve interviewed him and it’s like it’s the ability to indulge in ously achieve the estate someone because nature’s built it in we have you know multitude of tryptamines we have NN DMT we have five meo DMT in our you know our wetware in our you know in our bodies and our brains we Nature has threaded

the neurotransmitter of DMT in us in the plans in many of her species who are sent into to a level to connect us with the ability to be conscious you know and so I believe that all of this is just a stepping stone in history to regain basically five by galactic Godhead consciousness as divine beings and to be to know our place not in the web of life and to be stewards of the planet and you know it’s I suspect it’s not going to be what we think it is you

know it’s not it might not even be us in the starring role it’s like it’s us as a bridge to what’s coming next and I think that the the psychedelic journey is now evolving into the entheogenic journey and I really do suspect the antigenic journey will evolve over the next generation into the endogenous journey of our ability to connect to what we really are which is you know the planet wearing us as the skin you know it’s really amazing man that you that you

touch on on these these subjects i just think i agree with you completely that this transcendental knowledge is kind of we’re removing and as we deviate from the materialism and and this possessive quality that humans have and we shed off these sort of layers and we pick up this understanding that you know perhaps wealth is the acquisition of information and our own personal evolution that perhaps these ideas will be less of a

countercultural movement and more of a normal thing well this is interesting theme because I was Curry’s now so hip and trendy with you know all the the yogi community not just of california and north america but it’s it’s the people who are already engaging with healthy lifestyle diets yoga meditation who are now embracing specifically ayahuasca as a medicine and so this merging of the modalities is already well underway and you know it’s just

helping go deeper to discover what the potentials are and to further further our abilities you know it seems like the scariest part of ayahuasca visionary state is that the medicine is actually it really is healing you on a physical emotional spiritual even sexual level and then you kind of have to come to terms that there really isn’t anything more frightening than you have to take responsibility for the world around you because now that you’re healing

yourself physically and now you have this vision of what you’re led here to do one earth and like holy I can fully realize this vision and nature can even help conspire to help me actualize this there’s something almost innately horrifying about that well that’s taking responsibility is the mark of an adult and then that’s the thing you know and basically different commentators and said over the years that basically the 20th century and maybe the psychedelics

perience seems to be this initiation of teenage years of sort of puberty and going through this this change from the child consciousness and you can look at even things like Tim Leary’s you know eight circuits of neuro genetic evolution he sort of map that out in and tried to give a framework to it as well that we go from a larval stage to a post larval stage and you know whatever language you give it you can see that there is a journey happening and

evolution has stages and steps and you know to be opening up the the energetic realms that psychedelics and antigens have done is a changing consciousness which is perhaps that that change from child to teenager and now we seem to be developing from teenager to adulthood and being an adult means taking responsibility you know for yourself for your health for your well-being for your family for your tribe for your planet you know to know what you’re really and

it it’s hard it’s hard at times I mean it’s often hard you know because it’s relentless its ongoing its life but you know if we know what we are embedded within we have a greater capacity to to go with that rhythm to go with the energies of that and not be against the flow which is what you know traditionally Western culture for last few thousand years has been it’s been you know not plugged into the right flow of what I guess you know the dream

spellers in my own indigenous kaja call a synchronous time if you go with the flow of energies of the way the planets rolling then it’s a lot easier it’s like it’s like a sail boat catching a win you know you get to go a lot faster and you supported in that but yeah I feel that I mean I I do know what screw retreats every every three months in Peru and it is a beautiful amazing healing cleansing experience and I’m getting more and more

hour you know myself doing long 10-day retreats as well and working with people and facilitating and then you know i get back to aikido so i get back to australian is like do I have that cup of coffee do I go back to my lifestyle choices do I do this have I picked up the yoga have I locked in all the things that I’ve felt and I’ve realized I really need to be doing and I haven’t quite yet you know here and there I do bits because the same stresses are there

in our lives so number one I think you know the value of the medicines is great because it cleans us out it heals us but it is asking us to take responsibility to make changes and to make changes that are going to serve us as human beings and as spiritual beings having a human experience and you know as we come together as a community of a shamanic community or anything Jenny community or people who have had these experiences and we hang around each other and

support each other and eventually that whole 60s idea of going back to the land and the tribe and having your own little you know community that you live with and support each other that’s where the the reflection and the support of the the other and the tribe is really important because when you have other people around you who understand and are on the same spiritual path then you can support each other in the choices you make and in you know holding that

vibration and that energy rock you know tech McKenna had this idea about time we’ve 0 and a novelty theory and this 26,000 year orbit and this galactic center and you’ve talked about it a bit as well I’m just wondering what your opinion of 2012 was and what you think where are we now like what do you notice is happening with the planet and information now well you know I mean again it’s like it’s like what’s happening with ayahuasca 2012 became a

brand it became a brand that became a huge Hollywood disaster movie you know became a danica Pinchbeck book it became commodified indie tones but you know the what the Westerners understood about 2012 wasn’t at all what the indigenous miners called it to them it was zero point zero point zero point zero point zero on their wheel of time and all that Mendez of the clock takes over and then it starts again in a new a new age and you know we are basically living in

larger geological tracts of time on the edge of the next ice age and if the other area I would really point people toward to research is basically you know a lot of climate scientists reputable people scientist who are being silenced by different facets of the industry developing around this but everyone is saying that in that field is saying yeah we are on that the the castle we’re going through the process of moving into the next ice age this is right on the

the time so we’re living through this meant to happen we’re seeing the build-up of of things happening in the world which is like a buildup of energy which will then dissipate and then result in the Ice Age but anyway these are the world ages you know these are the way that things shift and things turn and so what was your question again I was just asking about 2012 fifth time we’ve 50 basically the 2012 thing is the mines understood little slightly time

and there are different world ages and there are different energies of those different world ages and the things start again so potentially because we’re coming up to great transformations physically in the world the whole idea of disaster which was glorified by Hollywood is potentially still true but it’s not about focusing on that because this is language because underneath that its transformation that is the key word the planet as a macro organism is

growing and evolving if you want if you look at the electric universe theory or look at the idea of Pangaea you know when we’re a supercontinent hundreds of millions of years ago the shape of the earth years itself is an organism has been growing as a sphere and expanding outwards and that’s why the continents have broken in the position and shapes are in because the earth is actually growing you know like it’s like this fear that’s expanding and so

transformation is constant in larger in larger tracts of time and indigenous cultures all over the planet have left us world word maps in their mythology’s pointing towards the fact that this happens regularly you know yet sure the transformation made me seem to be destruction but you know in the same way that a forest fire may sweep through the bush it will germinate certain seeds into being that rely on that intensity fire will kill off a certain amount of

trees whatever but then the next species will come through this is Nature’s Way and so again we are so hooked on to human anthro more facism and this idea of us is that the dominant species and us as the the conquerors of the earth and and that we’re what it’s about and not just us but our physicality now being so the antigens are also helping us get over ourselves of the fact that we are a spirit you know we are a spirit being that we’ve had brief tastes of

leaving this body and traversing into the interdimensional ecology of energy and we understand you know to some degree that it is possible and it’s out there and it’s happening and so we’re getting tasters to go don’t don’t fixate on the body so the physicality of the planet you know it’s it’s it’s physical mass and it all its its its manifestation is just the vehicle to contain the Spirit and so when we’re going through the sixth great species

extinction they tell us which in itself tells us has been five before it’s okay it happens right so don’t fixate on it if you have an appreciation of spirit and of the journey in the beauty of the journey um you give yourself up give yourself up when its time because the physical form will fall away and then the spiritual energetic goes back into the great pool becoming which then is reformatted into the next thing it’s like we’re just got to get over

ourselves Rock I noticed that um there’s a there’s a heavy use of imagery and mental focusing devices that a lot of the shamans use down south america and it kind of they say that allows them to seek and find certain information when they’re surfing the cosmic internet so to speak do you find it useful to set clear parameters or coordinates when we are to you know kind of structure this limitless realm of alternate realities in that space well yeah it is a depends

what your intent is you know when I work on a retreat facilitating with people we do a few workshops on sitting in tents and what the value with that is to help people then you know focus on that in their journeys we also work on different skills that people can develop into helping them navigate altered states especially if people get stuck in negative States or in trauma or in some state which they perceive as negative there can be experienced in there that

can be valuing that but if it’s going on all the time you want to be able to change the channel so there’s different sort of NLP type of techniques and different sort of anchors that you can create for yourself by thinking of certain things which break state and put you into a different frame of reference there’s also breathing techniques you know their arm would risen different you know things you can do to help help you potentiate your experience and you know

it is quite limitless that that inner inner space terrain that terra incognita and so I think that yet to not be just the babies flailing around in hyperspatial kindergarten we need to be able to learn to crawl and then to walk and then to fly or runny no we need to be able to if this is a thing if we are if we see both the earth as a macro organism and our human bodies as a microorganism as vessels for containing spirit and it’s like baking a cake

eventually you’re going to take it out of the oven and you know it’s like so this is a stage we’re going through potentially to then join the interdimensional ecology where the real action is happening right and so if we’re training and learning on that same metaphor of you know crawling and walking and running or whatever eventually imagine imagine if you’re if if we have if every human is basically a shaman or what we now call a shaman in

the ability to traverse the world to engage with the larger reservoir of intelligence and or beings that are just behind the curtain there and have been waiting for us just to evolve to the point of consciousness to recognize that they’re there and so all these training wheels is like yeah let’s sharpen our blades let’s sharpen our ability let’s take on the responsibility as adults and as entheogenic beings to engage with what is really there what the web of

life is and how far extends into the the inner space ecology it truly phenomenal information man hand and there’s it’s a lot to really take in and I just want to give you the chance is there anything that you want to get out well I’ve been working on my own personal feedback loops of late so I’ll just put a bit of a few plugs in here that I’m rebuilding rockrose am calm and I’m going to be offering a subscription model to subscribers so they get like

fresh content every week a lot of audio talks and chats and I do a monthly podcast in a perfect world myself talking to other notables within the consciousness and shamanic sort of fields but I also i’m also regularly traveling the world and meeting up with people all the time and they’re really great conversations and out their stuff and the the gold is often not not put out publicly so i’m going to be offering that as a subscription model to help

support me to continue doing the work of getting good information out there in creating media artifacts like the I awakenings film the I awakenings film is going to be screening in San Francisco and Oakland on April 13 I’m going to be in the States passing through on the way my next retreat and yeah I’m really starting to work as well with some of the west coast san francisco-based neuroscience I put this new word i call it neuro shamanism it’s basically using

a lot of the technologies of you know the virtual type of technologies and the EEG machines and like the emotive devices and all that sort of hard technology capabilities to then look at ulta mistakes and to look at the shamanic sort of paradigm and to try to get more data and not just in a clinical way we want to be able to satisfy scientific inquiry but we also want to be as saying before be able to improve our ability to go into these states and

i think the blend between neuroscience and shamanism is a sort of the next step and that’s sort of where i’m headed so i’ll be doing a public discussion about that on April so Dean and Oakland can check out that they’ll be announced pretty soon and just maybe people could check out the film or awakenings calm that’s out there and yeah I enjoy doing these discussions and it’s really interesting because the global community is growing there is as we said with

ayahuasca there is potentially literally millions of new people who at least heard about ayahuasca they’ve even like two percent of those actually start to work with entheogens where we’re basically going to be probably doubling what is the existing entheogenic shamanic psychedelic community and it is growing and it’s not even maybe as a parent you notice so I really encourage everyone to watch out to people around them to support other people who are

coming into these fields and these modalities and to keep doing the good work yeah rock I’ve only known you for about 90 minutes but I think I love you mrs. is phenomenal it thank you so much for being here rock this is the human experience dr. G you got anything else for our guest min Drott can’t thank you enough man that was it that was a true pleasure there’s a blizzy guy let’s do it again so we heard here guys is the human experience we’re going to get out

of here bend reality back and get back to our bodies thank you so much for listening and ER