Transcript for Episode 35 – Dr. James Fadiman

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human experience podcast is plunging

back through the world of transpersonal

psychology mystical experiences and the

use of psychedelics as healing tools my

guest tonight is dr. James Fadiman who

is the author of the book psychedelic

explorers guide he also helped found the

Institute of transpersonal psychology

Jim welcome to the program thank you

very much it’s a great pleasure to be

here so let’s just start this with a big

disclaimer that we don’t advocate the

use of drugs or illegal behavior and the

use of these compounds should be

regarded as highly sacred for that

disclaimer so Jim you’re highly educated

if you could just detail that for our

listening audience to begin this

conversation I think that would be

helpful to credential what we’re

discussing here sure my my credentials

are that I was the Harvard undergraduate

and my favorite professor turned out to

be someone named Richard Alpert who

later became around us and I was after

college I was actually living in Europe

and trying to stay there as long as


and my draft board wrote and said would

you like to join us in Vietnam or have

you considered graduate schools so I

went to graduate school at Stanford and

did a dissertation about the

effectiveness of psychedelic therapy

then I have had a very checkered career

since then since I was told that if I

did a dissertation on psychedelic

therapy I would never have a normal


and so far so good yeah so you know your

book was very intriguing and there’s a

part in it and the year is 1961 you’re

in the city of Paris and you’re sitting

next to Richard Alpert aka ROM das the

highly revered Ram Dass and you’re under

the influence of mushrooms yeah so how

did how did that take place and what was

happening well I was living in Paris and

I was completing a remarkably bad novel

which I thought was a remarkably good

novel and my professor Richard Alford

passed through Paris on his way to

Copenhagen where he would meet with

Timothy Leary and Aldous Huxley and they

would be presenting for the first time

some of the harvard research at an

international psychological conference

and so richard who releases had become

really a good friend said to me the

greatest thing in the world has happened

to me and i want to share it with you

that sounded pretty good then he reached

into his jacket pocket and came out with

a little vial of pills and I was taken

aback because I didn’t drink coffee I

mean I was really beyond straight yeah

and I looked at the pills and I thought

words that we can’t say on radio and and

he then I took them and we sat on a

little cafe on the sidewalk in Paris and

gradually things began to feel very

bright and very colorful and the noise

was a little loud and in fact I could

much more easily hear the conversations

of the people behind me and understand

what they were saying and I realized my

French wasn’t that good that I could

actually do this so I said to Richard

this is too much for me and he said it’s

actually too much for me too he had not

taken anything he said because this is

the first time I’ve been in Paris so we

were treated to my fifth floor walk-up

and I had

a series of kind of revelations about

the way the world was put together and

who I was and what relationships were

like that was very meaningful then a

week later I followed Rahm das to

Copenhagen and had another experience

now this in retrospect would be a

moderate dose of psilocybin and it was

in those days they were looking at what

they would call profound human closeness

nothing really mystical and so life went

on and I ended up at Stanford and met

with a group who were working with LSD

there and took a much deeper plunge into

psychedelic expansion of reality yeah

that’s that’s very interesting so that

would you say that that was how your

interest in psychedelics began yeah I

had zero interest zero knowledge zero

experience and the whole world of

altered states really didn’t exist

certainly for people like me so you are

a strange turn around hmm you were

straightedge you were as I was I was a

kind of neurotic intellectual such as

Harvard could very easily produce and I

was very aware that being intelligent

was probably the only really interesting

value so how would you say how would you

say that that experience changed you

well everything I just said I think is

not a sense about the way human beings

are which is it alerted me to the first

level I found that being that other

people really mattered and that my being

kind of smart and arrogant mainly kept

me away from people and then when I

later had LSD I became aware that I was

part of a much larger reality of which

Jim Fadiman was a very

small part and of which the personality

of Jim Fadiman was in even a smaller

part so that my entire world view was

not changed it was simply expanded yeah

so that I now lived in a much larger

world in which the natural world that I

was part of it I was not separate from

it and that intellect was a tool nothing

more than that

and there was a great deal that I now

was open to that I had no had no

awareness of before and no understanding

was there was there one particular

vision or experience that stands out in

your own mind that kind of affected your

view on reality specifically you know

what comes to mind is a moment during

that first LSD experience which was much

higher dose and I was in a different

setting in a safe what we now would call

a safe setting with eyeshades and music

and I had in the great darkness of the

universe there was a tiny light and I

found myself flying towards that light

and that light seemed to the incredibly

loving and then in front of me was Jesus

and I was probably a disinterested

agnostic with no religious particular

religious experience and I found that

kind of strange but I was clearly in a

strange universe and then I flew past it

and I looked back and I could see that

the Jesus was like a stage setting where

you know where you build a stage set

from the back and you can see the

framing in the back and and then I

turned back towards this light and flew

towards it in his head

it had no dimension and it had no

theology and in retrospect I can see

that the great religious saints of all

the traditions in a sense are standing

in front of the lights so the light

seems to come from them but it’s really

coming through them and that was a major

shift for me

even though the the next day I was still

a graduate student in psychology at

Stanford and no one else in the

department had much interest my

worldview one way or another in your

book you talk about this first second

and third wave I mean are we are we

still within this third wave of

explorers and researchers well if I’m a

member of the third wave probably

there’s a fourth and fifth wave Marine

as I’m now finding that there’s a

there’s a list a graduate student list

that you have to be a graduate student

in some sort and an overtly have been

exploring psychedelics through courses

through research and you can join that

list and there’s maybe 800 people on

that list and they’re from all over the

world and from a dozen disciplines and

so we’re really seeing the the kind of

expansion of all that it’s okay to be

deeply interested in these substances

and what they do and still be part of

the dominant scientific cultures so this

is very much not kind of hippies in New

Mexico in a commune which I’ve already

which I also did but really that the

culture is now loosening up enough to

accept that there is a proliferation of

people with psychedelic interests of

which your podcast is just another

example I mean the 60s must have been

such an interesting time even now I mean

if you as you look at this shift and the

people who are kind of waking up to how

therapeutic this can be and how these

compounds can really affect and change

your lives for the better it really

makes you wonder where we will be in ten

years twenty years

well the sixties had one major

difference which is we saw that since we

represented truth life goodness

love health food etc that it was only a

matter of time before the world

immediately caught on to

what we were doing and stopped doing

things that were bad for the world now

it’s very hard to be optimistic about

the future in the large sense and the

psychedelics are more like trying to

save us from the overwhelming kind of

forces of you know inequality and

climate change so there’s a braver kind

of new generation coming up but

fortunately there’s a lot of them and

when they hold hands they form a big

group the heart of the Occupy movement

there were lots and lots of people with

serious psychedelic experience for

example I really feel like your book is

kind of the first of its its kind in

that I mean outside of groups like

erowid I mean you don’t really see

people writing about and at the sake of

their careers they’re afraid to really

talk about this and and your book writes

down how to prepare yourself and how to

guide someone who is in the midst of

this bending experience I mean it don’t

really change you well the thing that

people forget in the research world is

everybody else and so if I’m talking to

a group of four or five hundred people

and I’ll say how many of you are gonna

be in a research study with a

psychedelic next year maybe one hand

will go up and I say how many of you are

going to use the psychedelic next year

and you know 400 hands go up so my book

is written for the 400 which says if

you’re going to use psychedelics

probably given how powerful they are and

how valuable and how important you’d

probably like to do it with maximum

benefit and minimum risk and so the

first few chapters of the book are

entirely that and that was really the my

impetus for the whole thing which was

what would be helpful if we’re going to

do it anyway you know it’s it’s funny

because and going back to the risk of

you know your career by talking about

this aisle and as as I’m running this

podcast and I’m inviting people to be on

the show and if you look at my previous

guests and you know some people will

reply and they’re just like no thank you

and you know the vibe that I get is well

you know I just I don’t want to at the

risk of my career being on your podcast

also in a kinder way a number of the

people who are doing research who you’ve

probably asked they are being they need

federal approval and in-state approval

they need university approval they need

Department approval there’s something

called an IRB an institutional review

board that universities have to look at

all research so there’s an awful lot of

people that are giving them permission

who are a little nervous so they don’t

want to go on to a show like yours and

talk much beyond what their research is

because they don’t want their research

to be stopped brain by by one frightened

alumnus you know who phones the

university and says I gave you half a

football stadium now you’re gonna use

these dreadful drugs I don’t want to

give you any more money

you can definitely so in a real sense

they’re not frightened but they are

still dealing with a bureaucracy that

has not caught up with the culture I

think that you can see it’s so easily

with marijuana research which is it’s

obvious that marijuana has a lot of

benefits but it’s very hard for the

government to say well if that’s true we

have to reschedule it and if we

reschedule it we have to admit we’ve

been wrong for you know decades yeah and

that’s hard yeah I’m not affiliated you

know in a formal way I am part of the

University I helped found but at the

moment I’m not teaching there and my own

research while I couldn’t get it

approved in a universe because I’m not

actually giving anyone any drugs I’m

asking a lot of people how they’re using

them and

specific ways but I understand very much

people being a little nervous to be on

wide open shows like yours yeah I mean

well it’s it’s the human experience I’d

like to cover a range of subjects and

you know we’ve had a scientist from CERN

on so and I and I really feel like these

these medicines I’d like to call them

that can really open doors to your

psyche and help you help people with

their traumas but moving on here is

there is there a hero for you in the

field of psychedelics oh I think I look

up to some of my younger friends I think

I probably my main here would be like

Alicia Danforth who is doing the

breakthrough research with Charlie Grove

and they’re working with people with

high-functioning autistic which was

Asperger’s and it turns out that using

psychedelics or MDMA MDA in particular

in this case they can much more easily

learn to be more sociable and basically

have a much richer personal life and

Alicia is my hero because she worked at

the edge of the field decided that he

wanted to be a clinician working with

people went back to school got a PhD and

a brilliant one and then basically with

Charlie said to the government we want

to do a research project for people who

are not mentally ill and that’s a whole

breakthrough roland griffiths is that

John Hopkins is another hero he’s a very

very distinguished full professor long

background in the addiction field and he

again took the the risk of both his

career his reputation and his his job to

set up a series of research projects

that have really opened psychedelics

once again to

to researchers and to physicians and to

potential patients and the other thing

that Rowland did is he also did a study

on do these substances encourage

spiritual experience now that may seem

like a no-brainer to your audience but

what he was doing was making a critical

breakthrough for the federal government

which is the federal government says and

I think they’re correct we should

regulate stuff that goes into your body

that should be one of the functions of

government and we don’t want poisons

food we don’t want you know medications

that don’t hold the medication etc so we

really do want a Food and Drug

Administration on the other hand we also

want the government to stay out of our

spiritual life and the Constitution

really does say Church and the state are

separate so what do you do when you have

a substance which goes into your body

but it’s for spiritual purposes the

government really you know they’d rather

that would just go away but Roland

really works it through so that the

government said okay you can do it and

the fact that it works wonderfully and

people have beautiful experiences again

opens opened it back up again

to a whole generation of people that

anything about it I like that your

heroes are all living and alive but I

think it was I think it was Rick Doblin

who said that the most important thing

that we can do is talk openly about

these experiences and I I agree

yeah well that’s see that’s the nice

thing is I’m able to do that

again because I’m not involved in any

institution that would be upset at my

doing it so getting back to your book

here why is it so important that we have

a guide while we’re going through these

sacred journeys well basically a guide

and it’s a little too strong a word but

I don’t have a weaker when a guide is

there if you need help and also a

is there so that you can go as far as

you wish

knowing that you will be safe it’s a

little bit like a safari guide where a

safari guide doesn’t interfere with your

experience but he may say I would walk

to the to the left of that path because

that little clear patch ahead is

something in our language translators

mix and or why don’t you stand behind

the tree because this animal running

towards us actually doesn’t like us and

if you have no experience you you could

make some serious mistakes and so a

guide allows you to go farther and go

deeper knowing that if you get in

trouble you just like wag your finger or

say can I talk to you and they will they

will help so for instance a very common

experience for people having a mystical

experience a feeling of total unity

before they get that they often have an

experience which which seems to be like

dying and if they look at the guide and

they say I feel undying and obviously

they’re saying this frightened and the

guide says oh that’s great go with it

suddenly you realize well the guide

seems to know something you don’t you

trust the guide he cares for you

it’s going to work out so a guide can be

very very helpful when you basically get

into areas where you don’t know what

you’re doing yeah I would have to agree

completely I don’t I don’t think that I

mean but it’s hard because I mean you

when you look at a person who is

inclined to use these substances they’re

not thinking about that I mean they’re

not thinking about kind of calling one

of their friends and inviting them over

or while you know they trip on acid so

I’m you know I know I come on as some

kind of right-wingers in this way but

it’s certain things are better with a

guide certain things are better with

another person you know I know people

who do sex alone but honestly it’s

really better with someone else

yeah and I’m not trivializing it’s that

that if you’re serious then you want to

do it well if you’re simply wanted to

move out and watch the ceiling

undulate and hear fantastic music take

less and probably you won’t get into

trouble and if you do I hope there’s

somebody nearby but sometimes very very

very sophisticated of Psychonauts can

suddenly get in trouble why do I do that

if you if you can possibly avoid it and

again a guide isn’t a heavy thing they

they’re around they don’t have to be

with you the next rule is fine that

might be that might be a new employment

opportunity is hiring there are people

who can’t wait for these drugs to be

legal to help people who have mental

difficulties and so there are

underground guides it does exist and I

know one group where the training takes

three years know they’re taking it very

seriously and of course they’re also

risking all kinds of things by offering

this kind of help yeah Wow and do you

think that this idea of having a guide

is a sort of remedy for our own cultures

lack of context for the use of

psychedelics as compared to maybe the

ceremonies of these indigenous tribes or

yeah well as we look at the rituals that

have come for everywhere from ancient

Greece to you know to Peru they’re not

nobodies alone and they have a guide

they may call him at your and Darrow and

us you know a veget is to a shame and a

priest even in meditation people talk

about meditation teachers or you know

going to the vendo where you’re

meditating and there’s somebody there

it doesn’t mean you can’t meditate on

your own but there seems to be an

inherent advantage on having somebody

who is who knows more

and I don’t I don’t you know it seems to

me pretty obvious I’m not saying that

people can’t do things alone but I do

know you know I do know the advantages

of somebody else yeah I agree

so I mean I you get into in your book

you get into the various kind of dos

frequencies or the dose levels and how

some doses can be sort of mystical

experiences and low dosages can sort of

aid cognitive functions what what

benefits do you think these low doses of

psychedelics can bring and what have you

noticed on your research well let me go

count it down the doses fairly quickly

and I’ll use LSD as a model because

that’s probably best known which is

around 400 micrograms is the area in

which mystical experience is most likely

to happen we the guys if you go into 200

that’s what kind of psycho therapeutic

benefit where you can save yourself an

awful lot of hours therapy and do very

intense personal work but you’re not

losing you’re not going beyond your

personality as you would in the higher

dose when you get down to around 100

micrograms you can use that for highly

technical personal you know professional

problem-solving of a of a very ordinary

nature in physics architect and then

around 50 micrograms is what we would

now call a concert though it says

something about the culture changed it

used to be called by the way a museum

dose and that’s where you are having a

wonderful time tripping which you’re not

going you’re not going to have much

insight or difficulty and you should

have it’s not a guide at least a

designated driver to get people home

from say a concert at 10 micrograms

which is a micro dose that’s a that’s a

whole new area that we’re just exploring

where things that you just seem to

function a little better you’re a little

healthier a little kinder you can

recreate it a little longer and so

that’s like improved functioning without

any of the without any of the visual


so that’s that’s a quick run-through the

doses now that I do I get your question

along the line yeah a bit but I’d like

to get into it a bit more I mean I think

it was I think it was Francis Crick who

discovered the double helix in DNA and

he later admitted that he was low dosing

LSD with him and his friends at

Cambridge right I mean how can we how

can we use this to help us every day

well he was dosing with his friends in

Cambridge actually after that time in

his life and although my book gives him

gives psychedelics credit for the double


I’ve been chastised by some of my other

research friends who say that only

appeared in one newspaper article and it

was never verified and best friends say

he didn’t take LSD until later so let’s

look however the question of how can you

use it and and when they were taking LSD

in Cambridge that was definitely not a

daily event and they weren’t working on

science I don’t think much during that

time for daily use and again you can’t

take psychedelics daily and they’re what

though at albert hofmann the developer

of elysee said they have anti addicting

properties there a cure class of

substances where if you take a hundred

Mike’s on Monday you’ll have a certain

effect if you take 100 Mike’s on Tuesday

you’ll have much less effect and if you

take it on Wednesday nothing happens now

that isn’t necessarily physiological but

it’s as if your system says I don’t need

any more or whatever that is for a while

and I and I will not I will not make use

of it if you put it in my system so even

with micro doses taking them once every

third day is more effective than taking

them every second day or every day and

you mentioned that psychedelics like any

other drug may not be for everyone and I

mean definitely there are variations in

body chemistry how how do we acknowledge

that and how do

reference that well one way is when

people say to me and they often do you

know I’d really like to take LSD but and

then I say don’t take it they say well I

haven’t told you my reason I said any

reason is a good reason from my point of

view if it feels like it’s not a good

idea don’t do it that’s one group then

people who again the reason why you have

a guide is people who have a very

fragile ego structure may get in trouble

if they take a psychedelic it’s not for

them so this is this is it’s a little

bit like flying a private plane anyone

can learn to do it but for some people

they’ll always be anxious and nervous

and it’ll be uncomfortable and it’s no

fun and why should they do that so I’m

very much not let’s put it in the

drinking water I am saying and I think

Shogun says it is know what you’re

taking and know who you are and that

will be the best information you can get

so if it feels like this is not a good

idea don’t do it and when I’ve asked

hundreds of people have you ever taken

psychedelics for social pressure the

answer is almost never so people do seem

to have a fairly good idea that it’s

when it’s not a good idea and if they

have it once and they have a very bad

experience that’s probably a hint that

it’s either the wrong substance for them

or it’s the wrong time in their life

it’s like an internal compass you kind

of point and when you’re not meant to do

it it can just go the other way and it’s

wrong and sometimes people you know

people if it’s possible for people that

screw up somebody will and the thing

that’s amazing is given the twenty-five

million people have taken LSD just LSD

since it became illegal incredibly few

of them have had really serious problems

and some have had very serious problems

I’m just talking with some people now

and a friend of his took six hits of LSD

probably LSD and have a tear

we’ll experience and no no guys nobody

knew anything and it’s now about six or

seven weeks later and he’s still very

paranoid and very unhappy his parents

tried to hospitalized him but the

hospital terrified not only the young

man but his parents and they pulled him

out so there are problems people can get

into trouble

yeah and they mainly get into trouble by

taking too much taking something they

don’t know what it is and again not

having anyone around to help I mean

let’s let’s dig into that a little bit

more have you personally ever had a

negative experience bad experience yeah

I’d say I’ve had a negative experience

but I was aware that it was a negative

experience meaning I didn’t get caught

in it

can you share what was it well

you know I don’t remember much of it but

it wasn’t very interesting and I was

kind of suffering whatever I was

suffering and my wife who had also taken

a psychedelic came over to me and I said

don’t worry I’ll be better just take

care of yourself and she went out and

had a wonderful wonderful experience and

came back a few hours later and it’s

like when you’ve eaten something and

then you have food poisoning if you know

it’s food poisoning awful but it’s not

scary if you don’t know you know if you

didn’t know that you ate anything he had

no idea what’s going on and you didn’t

know whether it was something much more

serious then and there was no one to

talk to that’s very different so again

how the people at Burning Man are very

good about this because they work with

people that have all unbelievably awful

trips but when they get into the hands

of the Burning Man helper staff what

people say is we don’t ever bring anyone

down we bring them through which is we

take where they are in the bad trip and

we begin to guide them back towards

their own Center and everyone the center

is is intrinsically healthy

including if you’re very very mentally

disturbed your Center is still healthy I

remember a friend of mine once who

phoned me and she was very frightened

she was very against going to physicians

and she was hemorrhaging very badly and

she was very frightened and then in the

middle of it as she was kind of weeping

and screaming um she came in a little

different voice and said don’t worry

I’ll be alright and I realized that was

a different part of her who understood

that she was hemorrhaging but it wasn’t

really that dangerous and so forth and

there was a part of her that was totally

calm totally clear and totally able to

function if necessary you know I think

if we moved more into this

decriminalization it this wouldn’t let

be less common I think it would be just

the paranoia around acquiring these

substances and and doing them because

they’re illegal that alone is scary

enough to not want to do them and I

think part of it is being illegal is a

bad part of certain setting and being

unsure of what you’ve gotten is a bad

part of sudden setting and there’s some

really bad stuff out there that’s sold

as other stuff there’s a whole

collection of things called n-bombs

which are often sold as LSD but the the

the the dose that will get you in

serious trouble is only two or three

times the dose that people like with LSD

let’s say for most people this if you

take a big amount usually you’ll just

have you’ll be knocked out you might

he’ll be fine so the young man I spoke

of earlier I don’t know that he took LSD

he might have taken something one of the

involved was Ben got in trouble so

obviously it’s like in prohibition

prohibition there was it was called

there was you know you could get very

good well distilled spirits that were

good for you

or had nothing else in them but you know

but alcohol and flavoring or you could

get things that were very bad for you in


would kill you yeah because that which

is illegal cannot be regulated cannot be

measured cannot be you know doled out

it’s like if you go to a marijuana

dispensary you pretty well know what

you’re being given these days because we

are regulating it it’s interesting that

these substances affect not only the

mind but the spirit as well and a big

thread through your writings is the

concept of how humans are connected and

woven into this sort of existence of

everything around them how do you think

that plays into all this well to me it’s

the fundamental realization that that

you cannot be separate and once you have

it it’s pretty obvious I mean here I’m

standing on a rug that’s on some wood

that connects to the earth through a

foundation I don’t think that way but

but I that’s true I’m actually being

held up by a whole lot of things that

I’ve had nothing to do with but they’re

part of my system so that there’s the

the implication of using effectiveness

and what I’ve seen is if people are just

take on cert doses what they tell me is

eventually eventually you know I realize

I’m just not as neurotic I’m not as

frightened of people I’m easier to be

with and I really am liking nature more

and so I’m seeing this as a kind of

natural progression just as the notion

is that if you go to a university and

you’re taking a liberal arts degree you

know you develop a certain awareness of

other parts of the world and other parts

of your culture so that psychedelics

seem to be a very useful tool for

reconnecting us to the natural world

which we obviously have to be a part of

I think it was Albert Hofmann who said

his last piece of advice was you know

take take Alice T in nature if you’re

gonna take it

exactly and that’s because he always

last two decades of his life whenever he

took a micro dose he said I’d usually do

it he is walking in trees that works for


approaching the end what I mean what do

you think needs to be done within

society that can improve you know how we

perceive these compounds and and so

we’re not putting people’s careers at

risk by discussing them well what’s

happening is the culture is moving in

the direction of allowing people to

explore their own inner nature again we

had this strange legislative clamp on

everybody’s mind but it didn’t work you

know when I say 25 million people have

taken LSD since it became illegal if I

throw in marijuana the figure goes up to

140 million that’s just in the u.s. so

that we’ve been comfortable with with

with working illegally actually for a

very long time and I now meet people

who’ve you know grown up or entire

lifetime their psychedelic use has been

illegal and they just say that’s the way

it is and the other thing we’re getting

is generational psychedelic use I was

talking to a group of about 300 students

at UC Santa Cruz and I often do kind of

research by saying you know raise your

hands and I all of a sudden wondered how

many of them had parents who had used

psychedelics and so I asked that

question about 85% of them had parents

who use psychedelics so we’re talking

about the real culture is quite riddled

with people with psychedelic experiences

and that percentage gets smaller when

you go regulators and then the group of

the least psychedelic experience as a

group or probably legislators and I’m

sure there’s some wonderful reasons for

that but I don’t know what it reminds me

of a funny story I was a cooking some

marijuana brownies and had them out on

the table didn’t expect anyone to come

over and my mom stopped by and she she

saw them and she she she decided to

sample some

and needless to say that was an

interesting day well CNET’s you know

those are the new problems we have and

of course one of things we’re learning

was marijuana is that eating marijuana

is not the same as smoking marijuana

yeah and so people are overdosing on

edibles let alone their mothers because

again because it’s a little hard to get

the rules of the road out there yeah

unless you’re in Colorado and and but if

you here’s the thing that blew me away I

got a note on my email it said Wow

Time magazine so Time magazine on the

cover has the cover article is about

marijuana science and I’m I’m fairly

blown away and then National Geographic

comes in and on the cover of National

Geographic is there feature article is

about what they call weed science mhm

and then I also get science news which

is a digestive hard science and in a

dozen fields kind of popularized but but

it’s a not a big magazine like twenty

thirty pages and its cover is about

designer drugs about the various kinds

of offshoots or turn off kind of

variations on psychedelics and I think

the culture is really moving fast here

we’ve really better get the legislators

on board before they really you know are

left behind in the acceptance of these

substances in the healthy ways one of

the healthy ways of course is called

pleasure and there was an editorial in

the Stanford daily that says it should

not be a crime to enjoy pleasure

yeah well Jim it’s it’s been a pleasure

man you are a really interesting person

I really appreciate your time where can

people find your work and buy your book

well I can buy my book anyplace

you know online or in bookstores but

probably better online and I know you

know Amazon and Barnes and Noble and so

forth and reaching me if you want to if

you want to hear a lot more my carrying

on about various things James Adam and

calm has a whole stack of both videos

and audios and I’m a Jane I’m a Jay

Fadiman at gmail if people want to reach

me and I generally answer things

eventually who putting your email out

there okay I respect well if I do that

mainly because people who are interested

in micro dosing sometimes write and say

do you have a view recommend or way of

doing it sometimes people write me and

say hi I’d like to do micro dosing

please send the illegal drugs in the

mail and I write back I don’t say your

legal drugs they just say and I say you

know in a sense it’s sweet because

they’re they’re growing up and they’re

not worrying about it and I write them

back to say I actually particularly

since I’ve written the book I really

don’t do anything illegal

especially that and it is one of the the

pains one has when we when we come as a

somewhat public figure is that I’m

really you know straighter than so many

of my straighter is a drug user than my

friends these days but but we all make

sacrifices yeah I want to know if your

mom eventually felt that that was okay

oh yeah she loved it and my dad was not

happy but he didn’t that’s probably why

I was thank you so much sir this is the

human experience we’re gonna get out of

here with my guests it was a pleasure

having you on sir thank you so much and

we will see you guys next week okay

thanks a lot

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