welcome to the human experience podcast
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human experience is traveling like a
vortex through the top of your cerebral
cortex as we speak to my guests mr.
adrian van dusen adrian my good sir
welcome to hxp well thanks to Xavier
thanks so much for having me on so
Adrian um I mean let’s let’s start with
the basics man I I love the the work
that you’re doing but why don’t you just
kind of tell us about your background
and let’s let’s set the foundation for
this this conversation okay yeah I think
its first important to just clarify I’m
the self-taught because in this field
who I mostly work with our mental health
professionals and dr. types with degrees
and my approach to this has been as a
learning person someone who teaches and
so I got into neurofeedback which is
we’ll talk about in a minute in 1995 my
father in fact he had a training center
which was looking to help people with a
DD or attention deficit disorder but
without medication and that was in at
that time and still is sort of shocking
to think that one could overcome a such
a difficult problem without having to
take any pill I know this is the model
that we’re in these days so I was sort
of a literally you could say
grandfathered in or fathered in to the
field and began studying with some of
the brightest minds of the area that was
1995 so it was really intensive from 95
to 1999 where I ran one of his attention
development centers in Atlanta Georgia
mm-hmm
basically you could say really also did
all of the necessary tests on myself I
was a person who was skeptical at first
and by applying the technology and the
techniques to myself I learned so much
about myself that it helped me heal my
body when I had a terrible orthopedic
accident it helped me work in health
physical health and mental health
through the power of visualization that
was quantified a lot of us work with
quantum with with visualization but do
you know the signature of that in your
body and if you know that signature in
your body and you can feel it in your
body you become very effective in that
process of visualization and
materialization so it seems like this is
something that you were incredibly
passionate about you got into you
started learning about and you moved
forward with because you really thought
it could help you and other people well
it’s one of those things in life it your
work comes to meet you so actually in
1999 after having worked with well over
200 children and having seen some
amazing results of course and in myself
as well I decided that I would step away
from that work and go back to more
natural practices gardening and farming
and whatnot and so when I did lo and
behold my neighbor her daughter was a
person who had autism and another fellow
had was a 12 year old boy who had
cerebral paralysis and was sort of
locked into his body and I just happened
to have a biofeedback unit and we just
happened you see what I’m saying we I
carried the track forward organically
even though I tried maybe to go away
from it the work followed me and so I’ve
come to accept that really the past
decade and a half that this is my life’s
work and from that I’ve been able to
study more I’ve been able to have more
in-depth conversations with people who
understand the brain better than I rain
and physiology body physiology better
than I and I guess you might say
establish a position for myself as a
teacher in the field now so let’s let’s
just define neurofeedback I mean how
would you define what near feedback is
okay I’m up I’ll let you know right up
front I’m a person who uses analogies so
I’m not going to use a lot of big words
I will call it a mirror or the inside of
your brain we can see ourselves in a
glass mirror we can see our not
ourselves but our physical appearance in
a glass mirror we can arrange our hair
anyone who’s ever had to shave or put on
makeup knows how important a glass
mirror can be or for that matter any
athlete or choreographer and dancer
would would also say how important a
glass mirror can be to perfect your art
whatever that may be and so when we put
sensors on to the scalp it picks up that
micro electrical pulse pattern and with
the neural feedback does is it is it
turns the screen towards the individual
who’s being measured that’s all it
creates an electronic mirror of what’s
going on inside the individual so you’re
able to see a sort of reflection of
what’s happening within the brain the
the brain waves of the person that
you’re you’re studying or you’re trying
to help you’re able to see your brains
functioning and it may be brain waves
but it may also be blood flow there’s a
number of different measures but you’re
able to see your brains functioning yes
in real time and continuously so that’s
very different from what a doctor might
do to take us test and then two weeks
later you get the results back but
you’re not in that same State anymore as
a matter of fact what we most know to
save yer is that states will change
anywhere between 15 seconds and 45
seconds we constantly shifting between
states and if you can perceive that and
this is that this goes to that old adage
that knowledge is power because if you
can have knowledge of yourself shortly
thereafter comes self-control or
self-regulation yeah I mean I’m
completely fascinated by this this
technology in this topic and you know
I’ve been interested in neurofeedback
for I don’t know at least a decade and
if I mean we for the pre-show when we
were preparing for the show you kind of
had me pick up a I mean I was shocked
that the technology of this
had become sort of cheap I mean it’s
something that you can plug into your
phone now and you know your your
smartphone has this capacity you just
open this application and like the Apple
watch is measuring your heartbeat and
all these other things so I mean how how
has technology changed for the realm of
neurofeedback and you know through the
last 10 or 15 years would you say yeah
well i started in 1995 and the computer
was about the size of a large computer
of those days I’m sorry the device not
the computer but actually just the
amplifier with it could only pick up one
channel of EEG whereas today we can pick
up 19 channels with a much smaller
device the operating system the windows
existed we used Doss now it can run on
an Android because the power of a cup of
a cell phone with it’s much more than us
a smartphone let’s say it is the
processing power of that device is far
greater than the computers we were using
at that time and Linden let’s talk about
how do you get the signal in with a
smartphone model what what is I think
the really genius obvious let’s say
existing technology response was people
saw engineer saw that the microphone
jack the line in from the microphone was
listening and so instead of her voice
they had it transmitted body signal in
the case where in the pre-show where we
did that demo with a galvanic skin
response my friend this is measuring
that deep inside of you that deep
sensation of excitement fear butterflies
in my stomach these are all languages
words that we have in our language for a
simple electro thermal response that can
be measured also I’m not trying to
minimize it please understand that I
myself am subject to my own emotions
also Maria but how much how much more Oh
calm can I be about that if I know that
it there’s a phenomenon that it’s
measurable its quantifiable I can have a
number value to that it’s like playing
tennis with an
I know when I got it right and I know
when I’m just shy of my mark so I mean
it’s again this is this is so intriguing
to me because they’re such a there can
be such a disconnection between a person
and they’re sort of connection with
themselves so this type of technology
and you mentioned GSR galvanic skin
response can you get into that a little
bit more right well it’s named after the
guy who discovered it Luigi Galvani in
the late 1700s discovered electricity
running through the nervous system of a
dead frog right he could make the frog’s
leg twitch and so that’s how old this is
this is so old that Carl Jung was using
it in his psychotherapy when he was a
psychiatrist in the early 1900’s these
days the same physiology still applies I
mean we haven’t changed the technology
has changed to catch up let’s say but we
haven’t changed it’s basically measuring
ok I’ll give you an example in real
world you know when you shake someone’s
hand and they’ve got the kind of clammy
sweaty palm and you say that person’s
nervous immediately you make a quality
judgment about their emotional state
well it actually is kind of true and
what the galvanic skin response does is
it’s basically tool to metal any kind of
metal will do we usually use silver
chloride electrodes because of the
conductance value and we’re measuring
how much resistance there is between one
electrode and the other one sensor pad
and the other right what happens when a
person’s hands gets a little bit sweaty
that reduces the impedance it makes the
signal pass better and so we just were
able to gauge this this line graph that
goes up and down over time we’re able to
gauge the present state of the person
and and also be able to not not us not
the professional but the person him or
herself can see his own emotional state
on the screen we don’t know the quality
we don’t know what the person is
thinking or if they’re happy or if
they’re angry that can’t be quantified
but we do know that the quantity we know
how intensely they’re feeling it right
it’s just measuring sweaty palms yeah
sounds funny but it’s using the simple
biological fun
common on and by measuring it over time
we start to see that there’s a
fluctuation there’s not been a damn that
relates to my thoughts and emotions but
it’s a simple simple technology so we
need I mean you you make it sound so
easy I mean like so it’s just an
electrical signal that your skin is kind
of sending out based on emotional
factors yeah yeah okay I’ll give you
I’ll give you even more down-home
example this is you know this is for the
do-it-yourselfers out there go to well
you can’t go to radioshack anymore but
you can buy a vu meter you can buy an
impedance meter then turn it to 10,000
right Millie right ten thousand or ten
thousand you’re gonna be amplifying the
signal then hold on to each one of those
little metal rods and you will see that
the needle will go up and down or that
number will change it’s simple
electrical impedance it’s basic laws of
electronics or electrical laws that
we’re able to perceive in our own
bioelectrical body and that like you
said Xavier that tells us about
ourselves okay okay I’m starting to get
the picture here about what this is so I
mean how long would you say a typical
neurofeedback session could last and I
mean what are some of the type of
effects that that I’m going to be
experiencing while i’m in a session okay
yeah a single session will basically be
as good as looking at yourself in a
mirror one time but if you want to get
good at something you have to practice
over and over again right practice makes
perfect so a single session will last
anywhere between a half an hour to an
hour and you’ll spent time in front of
your mirror with usually with a goal
since you have a since you have a moving
line on the graph that represents you we
can also have a top of end of the graph
in the low end of the graph and you can
start to gauge yourself in space and
maybe set a goal for yourself i’m going
to make that line stay towards the top
of the graph that you’ll have a you’ll
have some practice in that half hour
session but you’re going to want to come
back to that another time let’s say
another time in that week and and
through the principle of learning
principles you know repeat observe
adjust and perfect right so that it
becomes
earned it becomes a second nature that
protocol which is different from a
session you see a session is a 30 minute
time period a protocol will oftentimes
me to be between 10 to 20 sessions when
someone is just trying to let’s say get
to understand themselves and get better
control over their somatic or
psychosomatic processes and if they’re
we’re talking about a person with autism
or let’s say a person who has epilepsy
that is organic in some in some senses
and so it will take 40 hours or 40
visits right a person doing it at home
will get a bit you know you get what you
pay for in that regard there are some
really high and 19 channel or raise that
you know a person can go to a
professional and even have insurance pay
for to overcome some major issues like I
spoke of a moment ago autism and
epilepsy and a DD and depression and
then there’s also a simple device that
you can buy for two hundred dollars and
it’ll talk to your smartphone and
that’ll give you a general sense of your
state of calm and how to hold your
attention longer without any let’s say
overcoming problems it’s personal
enhancement in any case you’re going to
want to as they say rinse and repeat
right do the session take some time off
get a feel for how you are implementing
it in your own life without any sensors
you know it’s like training wheel model
you put the training wheels on you keep
you get a sense of internal balance then
you take it off and see if you can stay
balanced on the bicycle anyway so you
train then take a couple days off and
practice on your own just mentally and
then you go back and train and see if
you improve and over time you have
little data points that will show you a
genuinely measurable acceptable by every
neurologist in the world it’s the same
technology measurable output of how you
have changed or dynamite made yourself
more self regulated self-controlled if
we can just get into the science of this
little bit i mean are you are you
measuring is this the amygdala that you
guys are sort of calculating and and and
measuring the emotions that
no we’re processing is the prefrontal
cortex mean where is all this electrical
activity or occurring in the brain
wonderful okay it’s occurring all over
the brain and it’s it’s well the first
term that I should give you in the
scientific approach to this is
electroencephalograph II that’s graphy
is the writing so the writing the
electrical writing of the encephalon of
the brain it’s just measuring basically
amplitude and frequency of the brains
electrical signal ok now the because of
the nature of this capturing there’s a
there’s a lot to it but you know neurons
on a globe our head is a globe it’s kind
of ramp right so the electrode is
sitting on the court on the on the at
the cortex itself but actually on the
scalp right right so the electrode
sitting on the scalp and it is going to
only picture pick up the field potential
the electrical output of a neuron that’s
perpendicular to it it won’t even see
the ones that are parallel to it right
and and also it only picks up those
neurons that are non myelinated we call
it gray matter the cortex it’s it’s
about a millimeter or not who have five
in a very smart person but the thickness
of the cortex is very very small okay
it’s a very thin film that that follows
those convolutions of the of the brain
so that you have a lot of network in a
little bit of space when you asked about
the amygdala you are asking about what
we call a subcortical or a substructure
right and there’s no doubt that these
structures like the limbic system and
all of its different parts amygdala
participates in that or the hippocampus
and and how it’s related to memory those
we cannot see with a single electrode
but we know from anatomical science
where they dissect the brain we know
that there are strong nerve tracts that
go from these sub generators these
subcortical generators to the cortex and
so you make a bit of an inference you
know you make you make an informed
guess that you probably are working with
the amygdala if your electrode is placed
around the temporal lobe of the cortex
okay it’s it’s it’s one step away from
the source but we know that the source
is feeding where you’re reading so so
you can start to have a two-way
interaction with the deeper structures
of the brain that’s the base level with
a single electrode but again going to
analogy Xavier if you were a geologist
you would want to have at least 30
seismologists would want to have at
least three measuring points to be able
to discover the epicenter of an
earthquake Marine just to localize the
source you need to have a triangulation
and so when we use a 19 channel array
it’s like a elastic captain just kind of
slip on to the head and with a little
bit of preparation that can pick up 19
channels all at the same time so you’re
not only triangulating your 19 angulated
if it’s a technology it’s a mathematical
technology called Loretta low-resolution
electroencephalographic tomographic
analysis and it’s coming up to par with
what we think is the gold standard is
fMRI so we can see these deeper
structures but you definitely have to go
to a clinic or research center to do
that understand them because that’s the
free which is a question of degree but
it’s the same basic science amplitude
and frequency of the cortex so I mean
I’m intrigued but if you know let’s say
that I’m wearing one of these caps and I
you know I’m inside of a sort of session
I mean what are you kind of saying to me
how are you directing me to lower the
feedback well well yeah and I get this
question a lot I think that’s why I
always about to jump in because this is
really where my strengths in the field
has been part of me is my ability to
turn it into a game right to create that
that signals coming in and it’s and and
I can my company my original company at
least would create gaming mechanics or
game a
design around that so that it was fun to
win I’ll give you an example we had this
one series of games that we produced
called the bio play series that what all
we did was we bought the rights to some
simple flash games remember back about a
decade ago you would log into a flash
games online or whatever you could play
all kinds of games yeah so we bought the
code to that and wherever there was a
click command in the code i triggered to
a catalog that we created for the brain
or for any physiology does that make
sense we we turn it into a racing game
so that let’s say you’ve decided you
want to increase your attention span we
plot that attention wave you know which
is the relationship between a couple of
waves it’s a ratio its a math simple
mathematical 11 goes down the other goes
up and you get to drive your car faster
and it says it’s really it is it’s like
you’re in a game you’re its point of
view you’re driving a car down a road
and as soon as you go below your own
average as soon as you go below your own
norm the car basically goes to idle and
as soon as you cross that it starts to
the starts to go and as you pay more
attention over time your accelerate
further and further so you can start to
win the race interesting so there’s a
there’s a very interactive quality to
you know this this game and the device
you’re wearing on your head so your your
mind your brain is controlling this game
right and you said interactive and i’m
going to add to that intuitive i can all
this talk that we’re having right now
will give you context perhaps but it is
nothing compared to putting a sensor on
yourself like the GSR sensor putting a
sensor on yourself and noticing oh my
goodness this is look this thing is
showing me my thoughts I didn’t I
thought I was over her you know kind of
thing and all of a sudden all of a
sudden my skin goes all wacky just as
soon as I think of my daughter you know
before or whatever right so so that is
very telling and it is intuitive it
cannot be taught as a matter of fact
children do better than adults because
children don’t have all the rule sets
they just simply play
okay okay okay so I mean could you say
that the body stores emotion stores
trauma and maybe perhaps there’s a kind
of disconnect between the conscious mind
and the your body and and when you’re in
this sort of session and you have this
thought about perhaps an ex-girlfriend
you have this emotional response and an
emotional trigger and you see that
through you know either GSR or one of
the brave way brainwave kind of signals
right there’s different tools for
different jobs and if we’re talking
about the emotional i would say the GSR
is the most directly clear measure of
emotional content whereas cognitive
processes or listening or creative
thought different states of mind those
are more of it they’re better served by
an electroencephalogram so it depends on
neurofeedback so it depends on what
you’re trying to get at and then to your
point of does the body store trauma not
only trauma but it’s door in my point of
view and and there’s a lot of evidence
that points to this I immediately think
of David Burke Shelley’s work right but
there’s a number of other other people
that also work on how the fascia the
connective tissue will hold on to
memories right and so what is pleasure
if we’re talking about a negative
sensation kind of locking up areas of
the body of being stored in the body
maybe it’s pleasurable to release those
right yeah right and that that the
pleasure is the unlocking of that in a
physical sense and and that can be had
through gross motor it can be had
through refined sophisticated feedback
mechanisms as well I will stay say
though that in neither of those cases a
medication was necessary or you
understand what I’m saying the XO genic
model i think is starting to be called
into question where there’s some outside
influence on me and instead we’re moving
towards the end o genic model where the
person has all that they need within
them to
enhance advanced heal you see right they
need to be put into contact with that in
which this is the power of the feedback
is that suddenly they have a really
enhanced awareness it’s self awareness
on the cellular level the neuron level
right and so that awareness then with
practice becomes control that’s
beautiful I mean that’s that’s the most
amazing thing I’ve ever heard really
it’s really simple it’s almost too
simple I remember I talked in analogies
there’s a lot of science to back this up
I’m trying to make it understandable you
know and enjoyable for that matter I
mean why do you think it seems like
neurofeedback is kind of under the radar
and not many people know about it not
many people really talk about your
feedback I mean is this because of our
sort of Western pharmaceutical kind of
society where it’s easier to take a pill
versus kind of go into an ear feedback
clinic yet exactly and that’s why I say
the XO genetic model is starting to fall
by at wayside I don’t know if you know
but there are now I can’t quantify it at
least three major international
pharmaceutical laboratories who will who
are to have pulled all development
funding from mental health disorder
medications they just find that it
creates too many side effects that it
doesn’t have the positive effect durable
positive effect that they’ve wanted and
so they’re getting out of this field and
so yes they don’t know about it we don’t
know about it right now because um
ciba-geigy in the 1990s had a 1 billion
dollar per year marketing budget and and
so if we want to talk grassroots power
it happens on the transformation of
every single individual who puts a
sensor on measures and learns about
themselves gain some self agency and
starts to talk with friends whereas if
you know then you’re going up against
its Goliath you know it’s it’s a billion
dollar per year marketing budget is very
hard to overcome that directly and but
yes over time that is shifting people
are moving away people who took
medications are moving away from the
medication because they don’t want to be
dependent on all their lives so they
start having liver issues or I you know
I’m not can’t speak exactly
this and certainly I don’t have the you
know the academic degree to make any
blanket statements but I see more and
more people coming in and saying my
daughter tried or my son tried ritalin
and it made them nay anxious or nervous
or couldn’t sleep or angry and is there
something we can do when look here’s an
amazing one this oh my goodness this was
this this dick smith me after what that
was 2012 I’m working with a young he’s a
four year old autistic boy the lower
level of our age range where we want to
work but he was nonverbal at four years
old he still was in diapers and his
mother was doing everything she could
you know so so she brought him in and we
were doing blood flow we’re doing blood
flow to the pre frontal region you know
the decision the executive brain we were
asking him to increased blood flow very
much you can’t tell an autistic kid you
know make the bar go he just can’t do it
we found out hey mom what kind of movies
does he like oh he likes the train show
okay we’ll put the train show on and
he’ll make it brighter and and louder
when he’s more in the state it was very
intuitive so third session he walks out
into the waiting room and he his mom’s
there waiting for me says mommy that I
mean this is like nothing you know but
she just started bawling crying and
hugged her baby and was shuddering there
and you know there’s the first time in
his life that he’d set her knee and you
know that he’s building a foundation
that he will grow from from that one
word to will come sentences will come I
haven’t seen him for four years so I
don’t know where he is now I know that
he was in a normal school when he left
he was potty trained and you had yet a
vocabulary well over a hundred words
because that the brain is looking to be
flex it’s looking for the opportunity to
interact me that’s the essence of
neuroplasticity the body teaches the
brain how it should act right but if
there’s no link there in that case there
wasn’t a sort of a cause effectual Lake
between what’s going on in my body and
how my brain will adjust to that but we
help that link happen well he can take
it from there you see that’s durable
that’s an end and she cried she thanked
us she’s I haven’t gotten a Christmas
card last year but she did it for a
couple years
it feels really good it feels really
good and when they say you saved our
family or whatever I can I have the joy
of being able to say well your child did
it all all I did was it put the sensors
on and I got out of the way you know and
that’s that’s that very empowering sense
that can be gained by an endo genic
model of healing or learning yeah I mean
it really seems like that’s quite a
dramatic you know story about this
autistic child and you know I I really
feel like this this should be given more
attention which is why you’re here I
mean I really feel like now your
feedback is something that people should
know about as a tool to use to help
themselves I will say this this is not a
polemic issue this is not something that
people disagree about its it is
something that certain vested interests
try to keep quiet but they cannot
question the data we were able to use
EEG signal and we’re able to show
changes over time and we can have wait
lists that show that they don’t and that
we can do sham false feedback and show
that they don’t yeah there’s no question
to the validity of this stuff it’s just
more of a question of how many people
ask for an interview how many people you
know it it is what you’re doing is so
powerful because the podcast lives a
long time and the internet it hopefully
sometime maybe today maybe a year from
now someone will listen to this and say
oh my gosh that’s me I have epilepsy and
I really want to stop taking medication
I really want to drive a car sometime in
my life you know brewing and so this
voice may it may it carry forth well
beyond my life that’s why I hope is that
the work can live on in practice let’s
let’s switch back let’s switch gears
back to kind of the research and I mean
what it’s teaching us about the brain I
mean you mentioned your plasticity and
can you can you get into sort of what
that means I mean is this the ability of
the brain’s ability to learn and what
how do we define IRA plasticity
yeah well the word is good one because
it does define it for you plastic is
flexible or malleable and so that’s the
term way before the material was
invented by some chemical company the
term plastic it means malleable and so
it’s the malleability of the neuron
let’s look at a single neuron think of
it like a tree as I use analogies where
the nucleus is the root of the tree the
axon where the chemical where the
electrical similar signal good crosses
is the trunk of the tree it’s a you know
a larger body and then you have all
these branches right and those are
called the dendrites those the number of
dendrites of any neuron are going to
change what a newborn baby has way
millions more neurons than a 20 year old
adult however each neuron has very few
dendrites and so neuroplasticity or the
malleability of the neuron is based upon
what that shot now we get into spiritual
stuff now based upon what that self is
wanting to do be it a crawl roll from
your belly over to your back whatever it
is that body is going to create a demand
and the neuron will start to make a new
bud and it will branch off to reach
another neuron in this case a motor
neuron and they will form a synapse they
will they will not touch but they will
come close enough to each other that the
electrical signal will be able to reach
across and almost like forest who you
can hardly see the sky because it’s so
dense that that the branches are almost
there not touching but they’re covering
up the sky right that’s that’s a similar
analogy that’s a el mature forest will
close out the greater part of the light
of the sky whereas a new for us as just
some saplings with a few little branches
going off but they don’t communicate
with the forest right yeah so in Iran a
neuron is a tree and in that analogy and
as it grows it specializes to fill in
those spaces to try and make the most
dense network possible now that applies
in both directions so
they say neuroplasticity one of the one
of the favorites that I think Candace
purchase is famous for is neurons that
fire together wire together that’s known
plasticity and also that neurons that
don’t fire together they break their
connections if that’s like you learn the
language when you were 16 but then you
didn’t use it for 10 years then when you
go to that country it’s like oh my gosh
I can’t remember anything I learned in
height that’s that’s the other side of
neuroplasticity it’s more like the
atrophy mind atrophy model where if I
don’t use it there’s no blood flow to
those neurons those those dendrites will
sort of help us say well they kind of
decay or they will kind of weekend and
break their connections but wherever
there is a message passing that neuron
Network will stay strong that’s the
principle of neuroplasticity I say it’s
a lesson that our body gives to a brain
be caught and this is there’s a reason
I’m saying this Savior so the lesson
that our body gives our brain is oh I
need to touch the tip of my finger to my
nose well when I tried it the first time
it didn’t work I probably poke my ear he
felt I mean it just didn’t work but over
time repetition repetition I started to
get it so I could do with my eyes closed
I could do it at any time right that’s a
body telling the brain that it needs to
have a network that connects no
sensation with fingertip sensation and
once that established becomes easy it
becomes second nature now but it always
has to have the body in the middle now
what we do with neurofeedback is
something entirely new for the brain we
are creating a well the brain has no
proprioception I don’t know if you know
this but most brain surgeries the person
is actually awake under local anesthesia
because they need the person to respond
to say well did you feel that now not
fielding me poking your brain but can
you feel that in your whatever did eyes
twitch or whatever so they can start to
see that in the waking person but the
brain can’t feel itself that’s what I’m
getting it the brain can not be lit so
so the brain does not know itself it
knows inputs and outputs it’s receiving
from the body it’s sending out as
signals of action to the butt but when
we put a sensor on the
on the scalp we amplify the brains own
signal and we feed it right back into
the eyes and the ears as light and sound
suddenly the brain has its own
proprioceptive device and very quickly
neuroplasticity can take effect in the
way that you want it to very very
specifically you’ve created a program
that’s asking the brain to move in such
in such a direction and you can just sit
in the chair and and do that that will
make changes in the brain it’s been
shown with fMRI it’s been shown with
cat-scans do you understand the
important that I mean I’m trying to
address yes I mean that’s I mean it’s
really a profound profound thing that
you’re discussing here I mean it it
opens the door to so many new
possibilities I mean we’re I mean if
we’re able to give the brain the ability
to kind of see itself through these
signals that were attaching to your head
then I mean it’s suddenly our capacity
to learn our capacity took a heel has
exponentiated I mean we’re we’re now
doing that we’re now healing okay so
okay so you mentioned I don’t I don’t
mean to jump around too much here but
time is limited let me know you
mentioned spiritual experiences I mean I
I’m kind of curious if you’ve ever you
know if you’ve ever been wearing a cap
and kind of went into a meditative state
and had a spiritual type experience
wearing one of these machines oh yeah
yeah and there’s a whole school of
thought as perfectly just got a flyer
for a new book about to come out Alpha
Theta training in the 21st century it’s
going to come out a little while and
that’s the field is called alpha theta
tree and it has has had a great impact
in terms of that’s a spiritual
spiritualization or enhancing awareness
of the non physical aspects of our
consciousness and so I think it’s
important that I site Carl pedram and
David Bohm you do both in their in their
studies have not localized Conda or in
other words they found that conscious
this is a non local phenomenon so a
person may look in the brain and think
oh here I’m going to find consciousness
here is where I disagree they’re not
going to find consciousness they’re
going to find the effect of
consciousness like I said it’s not the
cause it’s a matter of fact there’s it
neuroplasticity speaks to it you have
this in my view spirit that entered a
body of a newborn child and that spirit
is trying to figure out how to drive
that body like we’re trying to figure
out how to drive a car or a pair plane
or something you know that that but it
is you know intuitive and it’s you know
a trial and error or error and trial and
keep going until you get it but but when
a person is doing neurofeedback and they
have this internal and enhanced
awareness I will not say that they’re
seeing just their brain how can I make
or clear there there there there
observer is waking up the I the big I
the self is a slightly elevated no
outside and slightly elevated so you
ever been in this everyone has but I’m
gonna say it this way have you ever been
in an experienced we’re in a discussion
and you can you can almost see yourself
speaking with the person and it might be
a difficult discussion you say if I say
this I’m going to get the wrong response
right when you’re able to hold back
that’s the observer who’s actually
commenting on the real moment that your
physical body is it right so we’re doing
that all the time this is enhancing our
awareness of that voice that observer
that self right so one time I when I was
very young in this process I might have
been 24 years old maybe something like
that and um and I had a new puppy dog
and he had parvo virus and he was either
gonna die or live that day was one of
those you know one of those things and
so I was after my regular work day I put
the sensors on myself I turned on and
alpha theta protocol where I was trying
to go from an awake state not to a sleep
state but right at that line between
wake and sleep something like standing
on the bridge so I could call from the
subconscious into the conscious
and I was holding in my mind you know
these techniques I were on the human
experience but the the hope I find an
image of my dog healthy ring right and
uh and so over and over and over again I
was imagining my dog running up to me as
I walk in the door and trying and going
up on two legs and trying to lick me
right that was the image that I had well
um I had a 20-minute session I had that
experience of kind of like okay I’m
thinking thinking thing all this i’m not
thinking we’re you know I’m out of it
I’m not in the room anymore you know and
then I came back because the session
ended but I had held every time I kind
of came back the feedback will go boom
whenever I was going crossing over
though Wow yes that the sound fireman
was telling me where I was into the in
that space between awake and asleep I
and I had to sort of ignore the the
little dong sound because that would
actually call me back to an awake state
so i could hear it as a background noise
disappeared but every time i came back
to awake i put that image of my dog
don’t you know and this is a beautiful
thing about this and this is only one of
many examples but when i got back home
that evening my dog who was either going
to be dead or alive and sick was neither
my dog ran up to me jumped on that hind
leg went up on his hind legs and tried
to lick me I mean exactly as I imagined
it was oh so I don’t know if I created
that reality if I tapped into that
potential or if I was able to hold a
space there’s a lot of language there’s
a lot of language we could use for this
but I do know that the technology of the
feedback gave me a an efficiency to that
process so that in a 20-minute session I
was able to very efficiently go to that
place and stay in that place much longer
than I normally would yeah I mean it
seems like such a powerful tool okay so
I mean I as this sort of technology
becomes more advanced I mean can you can
you see this becoming I mean how do you
see this technology advancing mmm
mm-hmm we’ve talked a lot about the
brain and let’s remember that a very
very unique and i would say influential
organ in our body is also the heart and
your phone can actually pick up your
heart right now just using the camera
and the flash feature it just lights up
the fingertip you put your finger over
the camera it’s optically it’s reading
the light quality and as it gets darker
that means more Bloods pulling through
the blowing by the camera lens so so you
can pick up your heartbeat that gives
you a channel in to pick up a simple
signal but a very powerful signal
profound self-awareness can come from
heart awareness and so what I see
happening is because your phone is also
a commute international communication
device right suddenly we have the
potential to have a network of hearts
that’s what I see happening it become
quite quite simple to do not very
expensive low barrier to entry as they
would say in a markets and but that does
offer that interface to people so they
can first and foremost get a sense for
their own heart and then connect with a
network of hearts head build a global
empathy network that’s where I see us
you just like this and obviously andale
is and let me let me let me complete
this thought because we cannot be
dependent on our technologies right we
come before our technologies our
technologies serve us so we cannot be
finding ourselves serving our
technologies so in the model that with
the gaming mechanic that we’ve putting
it in place there’s an inherent
instability the signal drops out every
once in a while and so the person who’s
there trying to connect with other
hearts around the planet has to know
that even if the signal goes out they’re
not disconnected they have to know how
to connect how can i connect and house
will also disconnect it’s very important
yeah like it’s profoundly important to
know that how to disconnect as well how
to close that off which we were almost
forced to do at one time in our history
but that’s in that that’s in the past
maybe with this technology we can safely
go about
this opening of our hearts in a
planetary level using the technology to
kind of help us feel safe or grounded in
that experience and then move the
technology out of the way and still have
the skill set within us yeah yeah well I
mean Adrian I mean this is this is
amazing amazing conversation I’m just
I’m pretty blown away by everything that
you’re sharing here with us tonight I
mean in closing here and we’ve we’ve
gone from sort of discussing what
neurofeedback is to talking about global
empathy so it’s kind of like the
microcosm to the the macro but I mean
what I mean if there’s one last sort of
thing that you could kind of kind of
give our listeners to I mean what would
I mean what would you say to anyone
listening that might need this tool
might not know they need this tool I
mean what do you have to say to that
person okay um that’s aw yeah you what
you’re what you’re asking is I think so
much that we’ve said today here’s why
I’m having a little bit of a hard time
coming up with a single like a sound
bite because we’ve said so much of what
I think is important within the talk but
so those who let’s say they don’t even
have a dime to spend on this they can
still draw a bath and sit in a bin in a
bath of still water and what I would say
go take a warm bath put yourself face up
with your ears underwater and listen to
your heart listen to your breathe I
think the water will amplify that
because your ears will be in that same
meeting and listen to that and notice
how your heart will speed up as you
breathe in and it will slow down as you
breathe out feel the sensation of the
water around your abdomen and notice you
let the water show you how to breathe
effortlessly and deeply okay that’s a
form of biofeedback right another
example take these examples before you
buy your first device and do it in real
life let’s say you’ve you’re a man and
and you well let’s say you’re a woman
and you use lipstick put lipstick on
with a mirror one time and then wipe it
off then put lipstick on without a
mirror and then
go back to the mirror and look how you
do this ability to put lipstick on
without a mirror is learned because of
the mirror so so that’s what I want us
to be left with is this sense of
personal power that you main use
neurofeedback where you may use
electrocardiographic feedback or
galvanic skin response feedback for a
period of time and it’s on each of us to
learn what we can from that and carry
that into our daily lives yeah wow so
blown away man I really really
appreciate your time Adrian I mean where
where can people find more about you
like your work and when you’re the
company that you work for working people
pick up in a device I mean just add
information okay well I think all of
those can be found the conversation can
be had devices can be found and you know
even professional services if they need
that I have a company called it all is
communication and the site is it all is
calm ati T ALL is calm that goes there
then we can start a conversation in that
sense and they can kind of kick around
the shop if they want to and find some
of these more simple devices learn a
little bit more from a web the terms on
the web would also be you know
neurofeedback and biofeedback and my
name is adrian van deusen if you just
look up adrian van doos and as you can
see on the podcast my name is spelled
there then then there’s a fairly good
online bibliography that that will get
us together the conversation go further
awesome can I ask thank you for having
called me to do this this is this was a
real nice surprise and it feels very
much in line with my mission so sync
thank you for having invited me to speak
today oh it’s my pleasure man thank you
so much for being here this is the human
experience we are going to get out of
here and we will see you guys next week