Transcript for Adrian Van Deusen

welcome to the human experience podcast

the only podcast designed to fuse your

left and right brain hemispheres and

feed it the most entertaining and

mentally engaging topics on the planet

as we approach our scent please make

sure your frontal temporal and occipital

lobes are in their full upright position

as you take your seat of consciousness

relax your senses and allow us to take

you on a chip we are the intimate

strangers thank you for listening the

human experience is traveling like a

vortex through the top of your cerebral

cortex as we speak to my guests mr.

adrian van dusen adrian my good sir

welcome to hxp well thanks to Xavier

thanks so much for having me on so

Adrian um I mean let’s let’s start with

the basics man I I love the the work

that you’re doing but why don’t you just

kind of tell us about your background

and let’s let’s set the foundation for

this this conversation okay yeah I think

its first important to just clarify I’m

the self-taught because in this field

who I mostly work with our mental health

professionals and dr. types with degrees

and my approach to this has been as a

learning person someone who teaches and

so I got into neurofeedback which is

we’ll talk about in a minute in 1995 my

father in fact he had a training center

which was looking to help people with a

DD or attention deficit disorder but

without medication and that was in at

that time and still is sort of shocking

to think that one could overcome a such

a difficult problem without having to

take any pill I know this is the model

that we’re in these days so I was sort

of a literally you could say

grandfathered in or fathered in to the

field and began studying with some of

the brightest minds of the area that was

1995 so it was really intensive from 95

to 1999 where I ran one of his attention

development centers in Atlanta Georgia

mm-hmm

basically you could say really also did

all of the necessary tests on myself I

was a person who was skeptical at first

and by applying the technology and the

techniques to myself I learned so much

about myself that it helped me heal my

body when I had a terrible orthopedic

accident it helped me work in health

physical health and mental health

through the power of visualization that

was quantified a lot of us work with

quantum with with visualization but do

you know the signature of that in your

body and if you know that signature in

your body and you can feel it in your

body you become very effective in that

process of visualization and

materialization so it seems like this is

something that you were incredibly

passionate about you got into you

started learning about and you moved

forward with because you really thought

it could help you and other people well

it’s one of those things in life it your

work comes to meet you so actually in

1999 after having worked with well over

200 children and having seen some

amazing results of course and in myself

as well I decided that I would step away

from that work and go back to more

natural practices gardening and farming

and whatnot and so when I did lo and

behold my neighbor her daughter was a

person who had autism and another fellow

had was a 12 year old boy who had

cerebral paralysis and was sort of

locked into his body and I just happened

to have a biofeedback unit and we just

happened you see what I’m saying we I

carried the track forward organically

even though I tried maybe to go away

from it the work followed me and so I’ve

come to accept that really the past

decade and a half that this is my life’s

work and from that I’ve been able to

study more I’ve been able to have more

in-depth conversations with people who

understand the brain better than I rain

and physiology body physiology better

than I and I guess you might say

establish a position for myself as a

teacher in the field now so let’s let’s

just define neurofeedback I mean how

would you define what near feedback is

okay I’m up I’ll let you know right up

front I’m a person who uses analogies so

I’m not going to use a lot of big words

I will call it a mirror or the inside of

your brain we can see ourselves in a

glass mirror we can see our not

ourselves but our physical appearance in

a glass mirror we can arrange our hair

anyone who’s ever had to shave or put on

makeup knows how important a glass

mirror can be or for that matter any

athlete or choreographer and dancer

would would also say how important a

glass mirror can be to perfect your art

whatever that may be and so when we put

sensors on to the scalp it picks up that

micro electrical pulse pattern and with

the neural feedback does is it is it

turns the screen towards the individual

who’s being measured that’s all it

creates an electronic mirror of what’s

going on inside the individual so you’re

able to see a sort of reflection of

what’s happening within the brain the

the brain waves of the person that

you’re you’re studying or you’re trying

to help you’re able to see your brains

functioning and it may be brain waves

but it may also be blood flow there’s a

number of different measures but you’re

able to see your brains functioning yes

in real time and continuously so that’s

very different from what a doctor might

do to take us test and then two weeks

later you get the results back but

you’re not in that same State anymore as

a matter of fact what we most know to

save yer is that states will change

anywhere between 15 seconds and 45

seconds we constantly shifting between

states and if you can perceive that and

this is that this goes to that old adage

that knowledge is power because if you

can have knowledge of yourself shortly

thereafter comes self-control or

self-regulation yeah I mean I’m

completely fascinated by this this

technology in this topic and you know

I’ve been interested in neurofeedback

for I don’t know at least a decade and

if I mean we for the pre-show when we

were preparing for the show you kind of

had me pick up a I mean I was shocked

that the technology of this

had become sort of cheap I mean it’s

something that you can plug into your

phone now and you know your your

smartphone has this capacity you just

open this application and like the Apple

watch is measuring your heartbeat and

all these other things so I mean how how

has technology changed for the realm of

neurofeedback and you know through the

last 10 or 15 years would you say yeah

well i started in 1995 and the computer

was about the size of a large computer

of those days I’m sorry the device not

the computer but actually just the

amplifier with it could only pick up one

channel of EEG whereas today we can pick

up 19 channels with a much smaller

device the operating system the windows

existed we used Doss now it can run on

an Android because the power of a cup of

a cell phone with it’s much more than us

a smartphone let’s say it is the

processing power of that device is far

greater than the computers we were using

at that time and Linden let’s talk about

how do you get the signal in with a

smartphone model what what is I think

the really genius obvious let’s say

existing technology response was people

saw engineer saw that the microphone

jack the line in from the microphone was

listening and so instead of her voice

they had it transmitted body signal in

the case where in the pre-show where we

did that demo with a galvanic skin

response my friend this is measuring

that deep inside of you that deep

sensation of excitement fear butterflies

in my stomach these are all languages

words that we have in our language for a

simple electro thermal response that can

be measured also I’m not trying to

minimize it please understand that I

myself am subject to my own emotions

also Maria but how much how much more Oh

calm can I be about that if I know that

it there’s a phenomenon that it’s

measurable its quantifiable I can have a

number value to that it’s like playing

tennis with an

I know when I got it right and I know

when I’m just shy of my mark so I mean

it’s again this is this is so intriguing

to me because they’re such a there can

be such a disconnection between a person

and they’re sort of connection with

themselves so this type of technology

and you mentioned GSR galvanic skin

response can you get into that a little

bit more right well it’s named after the

guy who discovered it Luigi Galvani in

the late 1700s discovered electricity

running through the nervous system of a

dead frog right he could make the frog’s

leg twitch and so that’s how old this is

this is so old that Carl Jung was using

it in his psychotherapy when he was a

psychiatrist in the early 1900’s these

days the same physiology still applies I

mean we haven’t changed the technology

has changed to catch up let’s say but we

haven’t changed it’s basically measuring

ok I’ll give you an example in real

world you know when you shake someone’s

hand and they’ve got the kind of clammy

sweaty palm and you say that person’s

nervous immediately you make a quality

judgment about their emotional state

well it actually is kind of true and

what the galvanic skin response does is

it’s basically tool to metal any kind of

metal will do we usually use silver

chloride electrodes because of the

conductance value and we’re measuring

how much resistance there is between one

electrode and the other one sensor pad

and the other right what happens when a

person’s hands gets a little bit sweaty

that reduces the impedance it makes the

signal pass better and so we just were

able to gauge this this line graph that

goes up and down over time we’re able to

gauge the present state of the person

and and also be able to not not us not

the professional but the person him or

herself can see his own emotional state

on the screen we don’t know the quality

we don’t know what the person is

thinking or if they’re happy or if

they’re angry that can’t be quantified

but we do know that the quantity we know

how intensely they’re feeling it right

it’s just measuring sweaty palms yeah

sounds funny but it’s using the simple

biological fun

common on and by measuring it over time

we start to see that there’s a

fluctuation there’s not been a damn that

relates to my thoughts and emotions but

it’s a simple simple technology so we

need I mean you you make it sound so

easy I mean like so it’s just an

electrical signal that your skin is kind

of sending out based on emotional

factors yeah yeah okay I’ll give you

I’ll give you even more down-home

example this is you know this is for the

do-it-yourselfers out there go to well

you can’t go to radioshack anymore but

you can buy a vu meter you can buy an

impedance meter then turn it to 10,000

right Millie right ten thousand or ten

thousand you’re gonna be amplifying the

signal then hold on to each one of those

little metal rods and you will see that

the needle will go up and down or that

number will change it’s simple

electrical impedance it’s basic laws of

electronics or electrical laws that

we’re able to perceive in our own

bioelectrical body and that like you

said Xavier that tells us about

ourselves okay okay I’m starting to get

the picture here about what this is so I

mean how long would you say a typical

neurofeedback session could last and I

mean what are some of the type of

effects that that I’m going to be

experiencing while i’m in a session okay

yeah a single session will basically be

as good as looking at yourself in a

mirror one time but if you want to get

good at something you have to practice

over and over again right practice makes

perfect so a single session will last

anywhere between a half an hour to an

hour and you’ll spent time in front of

your mirror with usually with a goal

since you have a since you have a moving

line on the graph that represents you we

can also have a top of end of the graph

in the low end of the graph and you can

start to gauge yourself in space and

maybe set a goal for yourself i’m going

to make that line stay towards the top

of the graph that you’ll have a you’ll

have some practice in that half hour

session but you’re going to want to come

back to that another time let’s say

another time in that week and and

through the principle of learning

principles you know repeat observe

adjust and perfect right so that it

becomes

earned it becomes a second nature that

protocol which is different from a

session you see a session is a 30 minute

time period a protocol will oftentimes

me to be between 10 to 20 sessions when

someone is just trying to let’s say get

to understand themselves and get better

control over their somatic or

psychosomatic processes and if they’re

we’re talking about a person with autism

or let’s say a person who has epilepsy

that is organic in some in some senses

and so it will take 40 hours or 40

visits right a person doing it at home

will get a bit you know you get what you

pay for in that regard there are some

really high and 19 channel or raise that

you know a person can go to a

professional and even have insurance pay

for to overcome some major issues like I

spoke of a moment ago autism and

epilepsy and a DD and depression and

then there’s also a simple device that

you can buy for two hundred dollars and

it’ll talk to your smartphone and

that’ll give you a general sense of your

state of calm and how to hold your

attention longer without any let’s say

overcoming problems it’s personal

enhancement in any case you’re going to

want to as they say rinse and repeat

right do the session take some time off

get a feel for how you are implementing

it in your own life without any sensors

you know it’s like training wheel model

you put the training wheels on you keep

you get a sense of internal balance then

you take it off and see if you can stay

balanced on the bicycle anyway so you

train then take a couple days off and

practice on your own just mentally and

then you go back and train and see if

you improve and over time you have

little data points that will show you a

genuinely measurable acceptable by every

neurologist in the world it’s the same

technology measurable output of how you

have changed or dynamite made yourself

more self regulated self-controlled if

we can just get into the science of this

little bit i mean are you are you

measuring is this the amygdala that you

guys are sort of calculating and and and

measuring the emotions that

no we’re processing is the prefrontal

cortex mean where is all this electrical

activity or occurring in the brain

wonderful okay it’s occurring all over

the brain and it’s it’s well the first

term that I should give you in the

scientific approach to this is

electroencephalograph II that’s graphy

is the writing so the writing the

electrical writing of the encephalon of

the brain it’s just measuring basically

amplitude and frequency of the brains

electrical signal ok now the because of

the nature of this capturing there’s a

there’s a lot to it but you know neurons

on a globe our head is a globe it’s kind

of ramp right so the electrode is

sitting on the court on the on the at

the cortex itself but actually on the

scalp right right so the electrode

sitting on the scalp and it is going to

only picture pick up the field potential

the electrical output of a neuron that’s

perpendicular to it it won’t even see

the ones that are parallel to it right

and and also it only picks up those

neurons that are non myelinated we call

it gray matter the cortex it’s it’s

about a millimeter or not who have five

in a very smart person but the thickness

of the cortex is very very small okay

it’s a very thin film that that follows

those convolutions of the of the brain

so that you have a lot of network in a

little bit of space when you asked about

the amygdala you are asking about what

we call a subcortical or a substructure

right and there’s no doubt that these

structures like the limbic system and

all of its different parts amygdala

participates in that or the hippocampus

and and how it’s related to memory those

we cannot see with a single electrode

but we know from anatomical science

where they dissect the brain we know

that there are strong nerve tracts that

go from these sub generators these

subcortical generators to the cortex and

so you make a bit of an inference you

know you make you make an informed

guess that you probably are working with

the amygdala if your electrode is placed

around the temporal lobe of the cortex

okay it’s it’s it’s one step away from

the source but we know that the source

is feeding where you’re reading so so

you can start to have a two-way

interaction with the deeper structures

of the brain that’s the base level with

a single electrode but again going to

analogy Xavier if you were a geologist

you would want to have at least 30

seismologists would want to have at

least three measuring points to be able

to discover the epicenter of an

earthquake Marine just to localize the

source you need to have a triangulation

and so when we use a 19 channel array

it’s like a elastic captain just kind of

slip on to the head and with a little

bit of preparation that can pick up 19

channels all at the same time so you’re

not only triangulating your 19 angulated

if it’s a technology it’s a mathematical

technology called Loretta low-resolution

electroencephalographic tomographic

analysis and it’s coming up to par with

what we think is the gold standard is

fMRI so we can see these deeper

structures but you definitely have to go

to a clinic or research center to do

that understand them because that’s the

free which is a question of degree but

it’s the same basic science amplitude

and frequency of the cortex so I mean

I’m intrigued but if you know let’s say

that I’m wearing one of these caps and I

you know I’m inside of a sort of session

I mean what are you kind of saying to me

how are you directing me to lower the

feedback well well yeah and I get this

question a lot I think that’s why I

always about to jump in because this is

really where my strengths in the field

has been part of me is my ability to

turn it into a game right to create that

that signals coming in and it’s and and

I can my company my original company at

least would create gaming mechanics or

game a

design around that so that it was fun to

win I’ll give you an example we had this

one series of games that we produced

called the bio play series that what all

we did was we bought the rights to some

simple flash games remember back about a

decade ago you would log into a flash

games online or whatever you could play

all kinds of games yeah so we bought the

code to that and wherever there was a

click command in the code i triggered to

a catalog that we created for the brain

or for any physiology does that make

sense we we turn it into a racing game

so that let’s say you’ve decided you

want to increase your attention span we

plot that attention wave you know which

is the relationship between a couple of

waves it’s a ratio its a math simple

mathematical 11 goes down the other goes

up and you get to drive your car faster

and it says it’s really it is it’s like

you’re in a game you’re its point of

view you’re driving a car down a road

and as soon as you go below your own

average as soon as you go below your own

norm the car basically goes to idle and

as soon as you cross that it starts to

the starts to go and as you pay more

attention over time your accelerate

further and further so you can start to

win the race interesting so there’s a

there’s a very interactive quality to

you know this this game and the device

you’re wearing on your head so your your

mind your brain is controlling this game

right and you said interactive and i’m

going to add to that intuitive i can all

this talk that we’re having right now

will give you context perhaps but it is

nothing compared to putting a sensor on

yourself like the GSR sensor putting a

sensor on yourself and noticing oh my

goodness this is look this thing is

showing me my thoughts I didn’t I

thought I was over her you know kind of

thing and all of a sudden all of a

sudden my skin goes all wacky just as

soon as I think of my daughter you know

before or whatever right so so that is

very telling and it is intuitive it

cannot be taught as a matter of fact

children do better than adults because

children don’t have all the rule sets

they just simply play

okay okay okay so I mean could you say

that the body stores emotion stores

trauma and maybe perhaps there’s a kind

of disconnect between the conscious mind

and the your body and and when you’re in

this sort of session and you have this

thought about perhaps an ex-girlfriend

you have this emotional response and an

emotional trigger and you see that

through you know either GSR or one of

the brave way brainwave kind of signals

right there’s different tools for

different jobs and if we’re talking

about the emotional i would say the GSR

is the most directly clear measure of

emotional content whereas cognitive

processes or listening or creative

thought different states of mind those

are more of it they’re better served by

an electroencephalogram so it depends on

neurofeedback so it depends on what

you’re trying to get at and then to your

point of does the body store trauma not

only trauma but it’s door in my point of

view and and there’s a lot of evidence

that points to this I immediately think

of David Burke Shelley’s work right but

there’s a number of other other people

that also work on how the fascia the

connective tissue will hold on to

memories right and so what is pleasure

if we’re talking about a negative

sensation kind of locking up areas of

the body of being stored in the body

maybe it’s pleasurable to release those

right yeah right and that that the

pleasure is the unlocking of that in a

physical sense and and that can be had

through gross motor it can be had

through refined sophisticated feedback

mechanisms as well I will stay say

though that in neither of those cases a

medication was necessary or you

understand what I’m saying the XO genic

model i think is starting to be called

into question where there’s some outside

influence on me and instead we’re moving

towards the end o genic model where the

person has all that they need within

them to

enhance advanced heal you see right they

need to be put into contact with that in

which this is the power of the feedback

is that suddenly they have a really

enhanced awareness it’s self awareness

on the cellular level the neuron level

right and so that awareness then with

practice becomes control that’s

beautiful I mean that’s that’s the most

amazing thing I’ve ever heard really

it’s really simple it’s almost too

simple I remember I talked in analogies

there’s a lot of science to back this up

I’m trying to make it understandable you

know and enjoyable for that matter I

mean why do you think it seems like

neurofeedback is kind of under the radar

and not many people know about it not

many people really talk about your

feedback I mean is this because of our

sort of Western pharmaceutical kind of

society where it’s easier to take a pill

versus kind of go into an ear feedback

clinic yet exactly and that’s why I say

the XO genetic model is starting to fall

by at wayside I don’t know if you know

but there are now I can’t quantify it at

least three major international

pharmaceutical laboratories who will who

are to have pulled all development

funding from mental health disorder

medications they just find that it

creates too many side effects that it

doesn’t have the positive effect durable

positive effect that they’ve wanted and

so they’re getting out of this field and

so yes they don’t know about it we don’t

know about it right now because um

ciba-geigy in the 1990s had a 1 billion

dollar per year marketing budget and and

so if we want to talk grassroots power

it happens on the transformation of

every single individual who puts a

sensor on measures and learns about

themselves gain some self agency and

starts to talk with friends whereas if

you know then you’re going up against

its Goliath you know it’s it’s a billion

dollar per year marketing budget is very

hard to overcome that directly and but

yes over time that is shifting people

are moving away people who took

medications are moving away from the

medication because they don’t want to be

dependent on all their lives so they

start having liver issues or I you know

I’m not can’t speak exactly

this and certainly I don’t have the you

know the academic degree to make any

blanket statements but I see more and

more people coming in and saying my

daughter tried or my son tried ritalin

and it made them nay anxious or nervous

or couldn’t sleep or angry and is there

something we can do when look here’s an

amazing one this oh my goodness this was

this this dick smith me after what that

was 2012 I’m working with a young he’s a

four year old autistic boy the lower

level of our age range where we want to

work but he was nonverbal at four years

old he still was in diapers and his

mother was doing everything she could

you know so so she brought him in and we

were doing blood flow we’re doing blood

flow to the pre frontal region you know

the decision the executive brain we were

asking him to increased blood flow very

much you can’t tell an autistic kid you

know make the bar go he just can’t do it

we found out hey mom what kind of movies

does he like oh he likes the train show

okay we’ll put the train show on and

he’ll make it brighter and and louder

when he’s more in the state it was very

intuitive so third session he walks out

into the waiting room and he his mom’s

there waiting for me says mommy that I

mean this is like nothing you know but

she just started bawling crying and

hugged her baby and was shuddering there

and you know there’s the first time in

his life that he’d set her knee and you

know that he’s building a foundation

that he will grow from from that one

word to will come sentences will come I

haven’t seen him for four years so I

don’t know where he is now I know that

he was in a normal school when he left

he was potty trained and you had yet a

vocabulary well over a hundred words

because that the brain is looking to be

flex it’s looking for the opportunity to

interact me that’s the essence of

neuroplasticity the body teaches the

brain how it should act right but if

there’s no link there in that case there

wasn’t a sort of a cause effectual Lake

between what’s going on in my body and

how my brain will adjust to that but we

help that link happen well he can take

it from there you see that’s durable

that’s an end and she cried she thanked

us she’s I haven’t gotten a Christmas

card last year but she did it for a

couple years

it feels really good it feels really

good and when they say you saved our

family or whatever I can I have the joy

of being able to say well your child did

it all all I did was it put the sensors

on and I got out of the way you know and

that’s that’s that very empowering sense

that can be gained by an endo genic

model of healing or learning yeah I mean

it really seems like that’s quite a

dramatic you know story about this

autistic child and you know I I really

feel like this this should be given more

attention which is why you’re here I

mean I really feel like now your

feedback is something that people should

know about as a tool to use to help

themselves I will say this this is not a

polemic issue this is not something that

people disagree about its it is

something that certain vested interests

try to keep quiet but they cannot

question the data we were able to use

EEG signal and we’re able to show

changes over time and we can have wait

lists that show that they don’t and that

we can do sham false feedback and show

that they don’t yeah there’s no question

to the validity of this stuff it’s just

The Human Experience Podcast

Top #250 Ranked Podcast in the World

Top #250 Ranked Podcast in the World