Episode 69 – Robert Waggoner – Lucid Dreaming: Gateway to the Inner Self

[00:00:16] welcome to the human experience podcast

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[00:00:22] left and right brain hemispheres and

[00:00:24] feed it the most entertaining and

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[00:00:42] strangers thank you for listening what's

[00:00:58] up folks

[00:00:59] my name is Xavier katana you are

[00:01:02] listening to with the human experience

[00:01:04] in this episode we brought on mr. Robert

[00:01:07] Wagoner he is considered one of the

[00:01:10] worldwide authorities on lucid dreaming

[00:01:13] he's appeared on CNN CBS ABC and a wide

[00:01:18] range of other media outlets this

[00:01:21] episode covers some of the main points

[00:01:23] of lucid dream experience but I highly

[00:01:26] recommend you pick up a copy of Roberts

[00:01:30] book simply titled lucid dreaming

[00:01:32] Robert was actually requested by many of

[00:01:35] you guys so we brought him on very happy

[00:01:37] with the outcome of this episode it's a

[00:01:40] very fun light-hearted episode that I

[00:01:43] hope you guys truly enjoy guys we do

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[00:02:25] without much further ado ladies and

[00:02:28] gentlemen this is mr. Robert Wagoner

[00:02:31] where we discuss his book lucid dreams

[00:02:33] enjoy

[00:02:42] the human experience is accessing the

[00:02:45] Gateway to the inner self with my guest

[00:02:48] mr. Robert Wagoner Robert my good sir

[00:02:51] welcome to matrix B hey thanks for

[00:02:54] having me Robert you're we're talking

[00:02:55] about your book today lucid dreaming

[00:02:57] let's let's start at the beginning for

[00:03:00] you I mean how did you get to the point

[00:03:03] where you decided to write this book

[00:03:05] you know I taught myself how to lucid

[00:03:08] dream or become consciously aware of

[00:03:10] dreaming while in the dream state back

[00:03:13] in 1975 when I was a junior or in high

[00:03:19] school and so after about 30 years of

[00:03:23] lucid dreaming I thought there really

[00:03:25] wasn't a good book on the lucid dreaming

[00:03:27] experience and some of the incredible

[00:03:30] things that a person could do when they

[00:03:32] become consciously aware within the

[00:03:34] dream and so around 2005 or so I made my

[00:03:41] first attempt at writing a book and got

[00:03:43] about 50 pages and stopped there but but

[00:03:45] then in 2007 I went ahead and and wrote

[00:03:49] this first book lucid dreaming gateway

[00:03:51] to the inner self and that's been

[00:03:53] followed up by a second book lucid

[00:03:56] dreaming plain and simple which is all

[00:03:58] about the tips and techniques but it was

[00:04:00] just out of my desire to kind of share

[00:04:02] with people the extraordinary depth of

[00:04:05] lucid dreaming okay

[00:04:08] so I mean most people I would say most

[00:04:10] people don't even remember their dreams

[00:04:12] at all right exactly and so and and I

[00:04:17] find that there's this sort of period

[00:04:20] for me anyway there's this sort of

[00:04:22] window where I when I'm regaining

[00:04:26] consciousness where dreams kind of

[00:04:29] absorb back in and I have that chance

[00:04:31] and if I missed that chance I just I

[00:04:34] lose all track or memory of what if I

[00:04:36] whatever I was dreaming you know that's

[00:04:38] that's how many people experience it if

[00:04:40] they if they don't make some notes in

[00:04:42] the middle of the night or they don't

[00:04:44] make some dream notes immediately upon

[00:04:47] waking within two or three or four

[00:04:50] minutes the memory of the dream is

[00:04:52] totally gone and

[00:04:53] so to give into lucid dreaming or to

[00:04:56] dream recall you just really have to

[00:04:58] focus upon waking up what was I just

[00:05:01] dreaming and write down some notes and

[00:05:04] make that the most important thing that

[00:05:05] you do when you wake up every morning

[00:05:08] okay so I mean lucid dreaming was coined

[00:05:11] by Frederick than Ian that's right that

[00:05:17] that's what most people would say

[00:05:19] historically there's this gentleman and

[00:05:21] the Netherlands he was kind of as a

[00:05:23] scientist he also coined the term

[00:05:26] psychotherapists

[00:05:27] but but Frederick van Eden he was a

[00:05:30] scientist but also a little bit of a

[00:05:32] mystic and background the turn of the

[00:05:35] century at 1900 he began to realize he

[00:05:39] was having lucid dreams and he came up

[00:05:41] with this term I think when he gave a

[00:05:43] presentation to the Society for

[00:05:45] psychical research in London you know

[00:05:48] like 1913 or something but yeah a lucid

[00:05:51] dream is any dream in which you realize

[00:05:53] within the dream that you're dreaming

[00:05:54] and so often times you'll have that

[00:05:56] moment when you say in the dream oh this

[00:05:59] is a dream I mean that's the only

[00:06:01] explanation for how you can see a cow

[00:06:03] flying you know across the sky right or

[00:06:06] something like that and so so it's a

[00:06:09] it's a wonderful moment because at that

[00:06:13] moment everything shifts you realize

[00:06:15] that you're surrounded by dream stuff

[00:06:17] and dream figures and and the dream

[00:06:20] setting and and it just totally changes

[00:06:23] the entire dream experience it

[00:06:25] fascinates me that that we sleep I mean

[00:06:29] that week that all humans need sleeping

[00:06:32] most species on the planet sleep at some

[00:06:35] point or another I mean I think it was

[00:06:37] Terence Mckenna who said something quite

[00:06:39] profound that because the the way that

[00:06:42] the earth is moving there's there's

[00:06:45] always a section of the human population

[00:06:48] that is asleep and a section that is

[00:06:50] kind of awake I mean just a kind of kind

[00:06:54] of side note there but I mean within

[00:06:56] within lucid dreaming and and dreaming

[00:06:59] itself I mean how did you get to a point

[00:07:02] where you were you were so proficient at

[00:07:04] this

[00:07:05] because it seems like such a hard thing

[00:07:07] to do to to realize you're dreaming

[00:07:09] first to to even remember your dreams

[00:07:11] but then to to actually realize you're

[00:07:14] dreaming and then take control of of the

[00:07:16] dream yeah you know what just to carry

[00:07:20] on with that line of thinking for a

[00:07:21] second if you sit down and think that

[00:07:24] probably every night we spend about two

[00:07:27] two-and-a-half hours in the dream sight

[00:07:31] state every one of us two and two and a

[00:07:34] half hours in the dream state I mean by

[00:07:36] the time you're 11 years old you will

[00:07:39] have spent one entire year's worth of

[00:07:42] time in dreaming in this state of

[00:07:45] dreaming and it's incredible that you

[00:07:48] know scientifically we know a little bit

[00:07:50] about it but but there's a lot that

[00:07:52] hasn't been figured out and and that's

[00:07:54] one of the beautiful aspects about lucid

[00:07:56] dreaming when you're consciously aware

[00:07:58] within the dream state you have the

[00:08:00] ability to explore to experiment and to

[00:08:03] do all that kind of thing to kind of get

[00:08:05] a new understanding of dreaming but but

[00:08:09] for me how I became proficient was that

[00:08:12] so back in 1975 I was reading this book

[00:08:16] by Carlos Castaneda called journey to

[00:08:18] excellent and in this book is shamanic

[00:08:21] teacher Don Juan she suggests to him

[00:08:24] that he finds his hands in the dream

[00:08:25] state and become consciously aware and

[00:08:28] that was a totally radically new idea

[00:08:31] for me and I wondered if that could

[00:08:33] actually happen but there wasn't a

[00:08:35] technique and so because I knew a little

[00:08:38] bit about self suggestion and hypnosis

[00:08:41] this is what I did as a young guy each

[00:08:45] night before I go to sleep I just look

[00:08:46] at my hands while telling myself over

[00:08:48] and over in my head tonight my dreams

[00:08:51] I'll see my hands and realize I'm

[00:08:53] dreaming tonight my dreams I'll see my

[00:08:55] hands and realize I'm dreaming and I

[00:08:57] would say that for about five minutes

[00:08:58] until I became naturally sleepy and and

[00:09:01] went to bed and I did this for three

[00:09:04] nights and then on the third night I was

[00:09:07] walking through my high school hallway

[00:09:09] and suddenly just like they were spring

[00:09:12] loaded my hands popped right in front of

[00:09:14] my face

[00:09:15] and I thought oh my hands this is a

[00:09:18] dream

[00:09:19] and so that was my first consciousness

[00:09:21] consciously intended or induced lucid

[00:09:25] dream experience and so I continued with

[00:09:27] that and because it was so much fun the

[00:09:30] it's so powerful and almost transcendent

[00:09:35] when you have this kind of peak

[00:09:37] experience of realizing within a dream

[00:09:39] that you're dreaming and so I seem to

[00:09:41] have a kind of a natural facility for it

[00:09:43] and I just continued going deeper and

[00:09:46] deeper into lucid dreaming but what

[00:09:48] really made me the happiest was when in

[00:09:52] 1980-81 when finally the scientific

[00:09:55] evidence for it came out because up

[00:09:57] until that time I would tell my friends

[00:09:59] about it and they told me oh you can't

[00:10:01] become conscious in the unconscious and

[00:10:02] dreaming no one can do that I told them

[00:10:05] you know it's easy yeah here's here's

[00:10:07] how you do it and some of my friends

[00:10:09] even did it back then but it wasn't

[00:10:12] until 81 the evidence came out

[00:10:14] interesting case so so you you became

[00:10:17] proficient just by kind of programming

[00:10:21] psychologically that you were gonna see

[00:10:23] your hands and then through that trigger

[00:10:25] you you you realize you were in a dream

[00:10:29] and then you started controlling it

[00:10:31] right right so it's kind of like Ivan

[00:10:34] Pavlov the Russian physiologist he would

[00:10:38] ring a bell right every time he

[00:10:39] presented food to dogs and after he did

[00:10:43] this 10 or 20 times he could ring a bell

[00:10:45] and suddenly the dogs would salivate so

[00:10:47] in psychology that's what you call a

[00:10:49] conditioned response and so basically I

[00:10:52] conditioned myself that whenever I saw

[00:10:54] my hands the first idea that would come

[00:10:57] to my head is this is a dream and so so

[00:11:00] for example I might in a dream be

[00:11:03] climbing up a ladder and see my hands

[00:11:05] and think wait a second oh this is a

[00:11:06] dream I remember talking to one person

[00:11:09] who had read my book and he said that he

[00:11:12] was very successful with this technique

[00:11:14] and but one time his hands popped in

[00:11:16] front of his face and he didn't get it

[00:11:18] and then all of a sudden the hands

[00:11:20] started slapping him in the face until

[00:11:21] he realized oh that this is a dream and

[00:11:23] and so so you realize you know that you

[00:11:26] can just use simple self suggestion and

[00:11:29] kind of this behavioral conditioning to

[00:11:32] to achieve it but but that's how I did

[00:11:34] it back in 1975 before the scientific

[00:11:37] evidence emerging so I mean we're we're

[00:11:39] diving into the psyche here I mean a lot

[00:11:42] of this because I I feel like I mean I I

[00:11:44] have been meditating and I've been

[00:11:46] solidly meditating for the last I don't

[00:11:49] know 10 or 15 years and at the beginning

[00:11:52] stages of that I think I was I was

[00:11:55] purposely attempting to go out of body

[00:11:58] and I was I was intrigued by the

[00:12:00] out-of-body State I mean how would you

[00:12:03] compare lucid dreaming to out-of-body

[00:12:07] experiences right right so normally when

[00:12:11] I give workshops I tell people that a

[00:12:13] lucid dream in an out-of-body is

[00:12:15] basically like a house cat and a

[00:12:18] mountain lion they share some

[00:12:20] similarities but there are two different

[00:12:23] animals and so again lucid dream the

[00:12:26] definition is realizing within a dream

[00:12:28] that you're dreaming so you see

[00:12:31] something impossible or something

[00:12:33] happens and you can think wait a second

[00:12:35] oh this is a dream but to think about

[00:12:37] how the body experiences those kind of

[00:12:40] reports someone has a car accident and

[00:12:43] they're thrown out the windshield and

[00:12:45] they're laying and the in the middle of

[00:12:46] the highway and suddenly they're seeing

[00:12:48] everything from from 20 feet above the

[00:12:51] accident site I mean that's an

[00:12:53] out-of-body experience that's an

[00:12:55] experience that didn't begin with

[00:12:57] realizing you're in a dream and so so by

[00:13:01] definition you know these are definitely

[00:13:03] two different experiences but where it

[00:13:05] gets complicated is this around the same

[00:13:09] time I taught myself how to lucid dream

[00:13:11] I would have these other experiences

[00:13:13] which I later came to realize we're out

[00:13:15] of bodies but basically what would

[00:13:17] happen I'd be lying in bed getting ready

[00:13:21] to fall asleep and then I start to hear

[00:13:22] this kind of humming buzzing noise and

[00:13:25] you know it sounds like a thousand

[00:13:27] bumblebees around my head or someone

[00:13:30] playing and Digger ado or something like

[00:13:31] that and and I'd feel this strange

[00:13:34] energy and then I'd realize well wait a

[00:13:37] second I'm I'm viewing my bedroom or

[00:13:40] what appears to be my bedroom from you

[00:13:42] know five or six feet above the bed yeah

[00:13:45] how did I do this and so so I started

[00:13:49] having these kind of strange experiences

[00:13:50] like this and one day I just happen to

[00:13:54] ask one of my older brothers had ever

[00:13:56] had an experience like that and and he

[00:13:59] told me you're having out-of-body

[00:14:00] experiences and there's this new book by

[00:14:03] Robert Monroe you can read it out and

[00:14:05] and and see what this is all about but

[00:14:07] you begin to realize that

[00:14:09] phenomenologically they're different so

[00:14:11] so so that kind of experience you know

[00:14:14] there's buzzing there's energy sometimes

[00:14:17] you're rolled out sometimes you shoot

[00:14:19] out sometimes you see these wispy kind

[00:14:21] of silver colored arms of light or

[00:14:25] whatever you know your your kind of

[00:14:27] astral arms if you want to think of it

[00:14:30] that way and you realize that that's a

[00:14:32] totally different experience than lucid

[00:14:34] dreaming the beautiful thing about lucid

[00:14:36] dreaming though is is that it is simply

[00:14:39] almost always joyful fun well when you

[00:14:45] have out-of-body experiences especially

[00:14:47] when it begins to happen if you're a

[00:14:48] teenager sometimes because these can be

[00:14:50] utterly frightful events there's all

[00:14:53] this energy and humming and you don't

[00:14:55] know what what's going on I mean no

[00:14:57] one's prepared you for it and so so the

[00:15:00] sad thing though is now these two

[00:15:03] experiences are being intermixed and

[00:15:06] there's some people like Stephen Laberge

[00:15:07] who say that that out of bodies are

[00:15:10] actually probably a variant lucid and

[00:15:12] type of lucid dream right but but again

[00:15:15] if you get shot out of your windshield

[00:15:18] windshield on the highway and you're

[00:15:20] laying there and seen everything from 30

[00:15:23] feet above you your physical body you

[00:15:27] know that that's obviously not realizing

[00:15:29] within a dream that you're dreaming so

[00:15:31] there are two definitely different

[00:15:33] experiences and and there's a lot of

[00:15:34] phenomenological differences too yeah it

[00:15:37] seems like they're completely different

[00:15:39] experiences Robert Monroe hugely

[00:15:42] recommend any of his material he was a

[00:15:45] big hero of mine so let's I mean let's

[00:15:49] talk about some tools that I mean

[00:15:52] because we can use this state as a form

[00:15:54] of learning right exactly exactly

[00:15:58] a wonderful way first to kind of realize

[00:16:01] that dreaming itself is not random like

[00:16:05] some scientists say it is that actually

[00:16:07] in a lucid dream you begin to realize

[00:16:09] that there's certain principles and

[00:16:12] rules and so just to give your listeners

[00:16:15] a kind of a rough idea there would be

[00:16:19] some rules that you learn very quickly

[00:16:20] and lucid dreaming one rule is don't get

[00:16:24] too excited because if you get too

[00:16:26] excited normally what happens and I mean

[00:16:29] really excited if you get too excited

[00:16:31] then normally you pop out of the lucid

[00:16:33] dream and so around the world

[00:16:36] universally it seems lucid dreamers

[00:16:39] report that if they get too excited you

[00:16:42] know upon becoming lucid they'll

[00:16:44] immediately pop out of the lucid dream

[00:16:45] so that's kind of one of the basic rules

[00:16:48] another rule was one that Costin ADA

[00:16:51] brought up in that book journey to

[00:16:52] excellence him onic teacher told him

[00:16:54] don't stare at things when you become

[00:16:59] consciously aware in a lucid dream and

[00:17:02] and I remember the in my very first

[00:17:05] intended lucid dream I did that I I

[00:17:08] stepped outside of the whole high school

[00:17:10] and I was looking at the bricks on the

[00:17:12] administration building and I began to

[00:17:14] notice the detail and then it was like

[00:17:17] the dream started shaking like this

[00:17:19] lucid dream started shaking and I

[00:17:21] realized oh it's gonna collapse and I

[00:17:23] remember that Don Juan told Carlos to

[00:17:26] look back at his hands to renew the

[00:17:29] power of dreaming if that ever occurred

[00:17:31] and and so I did that and managed to

[00:17:34] prolong the lucid dream but but that's

[00:17:37] just another aspect of it in regular

[00:17:40] dreams we have rapid eye movement you

[00:17:42] know our eyes are moving all over the

[00:17:44] place but in lucid dreams your eyes

[00:17:48] should still continue to move a little

[00:17:50] bit if you stare fixedly at something

[00:17:53] there's something about that that within

[00:17:55] four or five seconds will make the lucid

[00:17:57] dream want to collapse it's so

[00:17:59] interesting I feel like eventually

[00:18:01] technology will get to a point where we

[00:18:04] will be able to induce this state using

[00:18:07] just gear like that we hook up to our

[00:18:10] brains I mean I know that

[00:18:11] have different tools like like glasses

[00:18:15] that you can wear that kind of flash red

[00:18:17] light to end and that way it kind of

[00:18:20] reminds you that you're dreaming you can

[00:18:22] wear those I mean so you mentioned

[00:18:25] around the world I mean do you notice

[00:18:27] that that people different people have

[00:18:31] different proclivities to to lucid

[00:18:34] dreaming around the world well they've

[00:18:38] done some research surveys of college

[00:18:41] students and asked them have you ever

[00:18:44] become consciously aware of dreaming

[00:18:45] while in the dream state and when they

[00:18:48] surveyed students in the US about 72

[00:18:51] percent said that yes they'd had that

[00:18:54] experience at least once and about 25

[00:18:56] percent say they have that experience at

[00:18:58] least once a month and and the results

[00:19:02] were roughly the same and the

[00:19:04] Netherlands and Germany and in Western

[00:19:06] Europe in Japan though the response was

[00:19:12] 42% so only 42 percent of the Japanese

[00:19:15] students said that had that experience

[00:19:17] and so it makes you wonder if the

[00:19:20] interpretation or the way it was

[00:19:22] translated didn't get across very

[00:19:25] thoughtfully so that students understood

[00:19:28] but but altogether when you look at the

[00:19:31] total population a little over half the

[00:19:33] population is as having had or has had

[00:19:37] the lucid dream experience now there are

[00:19:40] some people though who lucid dream

[00:19:43] virtually every night and and and at

[00:19:47] first I began to explore this a little

[00:19:49] bit because I co edit a magazine called

[00:19:52] the lucid dreaming experience and and I

[00:19:55] wanted to find out you know what what's

[00:19:56] behind this becoming lucid every night

[00:19:59] and and my theory was that these people

[00:20:02] had had childhood nightmares and so they

[00:20:05] taught themselves how to differentiate

[00:20:07] waking from dreaming because if you're

[00:20:10] gonna have a childhood nightmare every

[00:20:12] night you want to be ready and vigilant

[00:20:16] and know when you're in the dream state

[00:20:18] so you're prepared for the witches or

[00:20:20] the monsters or the zombies or whatever

[00:20:22] and and so when I begin to

[00:20:25] talk to people who said they had lucid

[00:20:27] dreams every night the majority that was

[00:20:30] their situation they had childhood

[00:20:32] nightmares that were really severe and

[00:20:34] to kind of deal with that they taught

[00:20:36] themselves how to become lucid Lee aware

[00:20:38] because when you realize it's a dream

[00:20:40] then you can fly away from the witches

[00:20:42] or you can make some accommodation but

[00:20:45] then I began to meet people who that

[00:20:48] wasn't their case and one woman told me

[00:20:51] that she had a neurotic habit and I

[00:20:54] asked her what that was and she said she

[00:20:56] had a neurotic habit of 20 or 30 times

[00:20:59] throughout the day asking herself what

[00:21:02] was I just doing what was I just doing

[00:21:04] and so if she is folding the clothes in

[00:21:07] the laundry room you know what was I

[00:21:08] just doing oh yeah I was making tea for

[00:21:10] myself and so she would do that in her

[00:21:13] dreams she had asked herself what was I

[00:21:15] just doing and then she would remember

[00:21:17] that she was putting on her pajamas and

[00:21:20] then she realized how this must must be

[00:21:23] a dream and so so I began to see that

[00:21:26] people could develop a lucid mindset so

[00:21:30] this is kind of a state of examining

[00:21:33] their perceived environment very closely

[00:21:35] or have some recurring habit like

[00:21:39] examining what you were just doing

[00:21:41] something that made you more mindful

[00:21:44] about your space and in that way you

[00:21:46] could develop a lucid mindset but but to

[00:21:48] write around the world basically half

[00:21:51] the people report lucid dreaming and

[00:21:54] about 25% of the people seem to have

[00:21:57] kind of a natural talent to lucid dream

[00:22:00] interesting so it seems that a human is

[00:22:03] a human and we all basically can't have

[00:22:05] the ability to Lucy drink I really think

[00:22:09] so and a lot of it like we began talking

[00:22:11] about is dreaming has a basic experience

[00:22:16] is devalued in society people don't pay

[00:22:20] attention to their dreams anymore but

[00:22:22] you can think back 2,000 years before

[00:22:24] Netflix and before TV and before all

[00:22:27] that I mean dreams probably were the

[00:22:29] most exciting things that were happening

[00:22:31] in people's lives if they were living in

[00:22:34] some you know small village along the

[00:22:37] I mean you know in your dreams you could

[00:22:39] interact with the disease you can fly

[00:22:42] you can do all sorts of amazing things

[00:22:44] and have all kinds of interesting

[00:22:46] experiences so but in this current

[00:22:49] culture dreaming is really devalued

[00:22:51] people don't talk about it or they just

[00:22:53] think about it in kind of

[00:22:55] psychologically therapeutic terms and

[00:22:58] that and that that's all the more they

[00:22:59] think about it I mean I would say that

[00:23:01] television probably sucks the ability to

[00:23:04] lucid dream out of you all the flashing

[00:23:07] images your brain just can't handle it

[00:23:10] that's so so I really there's a chapter

[00:23:13] in your book called the varieties of

[00:23:15] dream figures I find this fascinating

[00:23:17] and you say that these can be anywhere

[00:23:21] from symbols to different archetypes

[00:23:23] I mean how so I mean what what generates

[00:23:27] this like is it just the psyche that's

[00:23:30] kind of generating this dream figure

[00:23:32] that comes to you or how does that work

[00:23:34] yeah you know it's interesting so when

[00:23:37] you become consciously aware in a dream

[00:23:38] I mean we're just kind of as social

[00:23:41] beings were kind of socialized to

[00:23:44] interact with other figures in the dream

[00:23:47] and what's interesting is that

[00:23:49] oftentimes lucid dreamers would go up to

[00:23:52] a dream figure and they would say hey do

[00:23:57] you know this is a dream and and almost

[00:24:00] again universally the dream figures

[00:24:03] would frown at them or just look upset

[00:24:06] and there's been a number of examples of

[00:24:09] lucid dreamers going up to a dream

[00:24:11] figure saying hey do you know I do you

[00:24:13] know that I'm dreaming you and then the

[00:24:16] dream figure responding how do you know

[00:24:18] I'm not dreaming you Wow

[00:24:21] and then the lucid dreamer would say

[00:24:23] well look I can fly and then the dream

[00:24:25] figure would say well look I can fly too

[00:24:26] and they would keep trying to one-up

[00:24:29] each other to see who had the most

[00:24:31] abilities there in the dream state but

[00:24:34] but what it shows you is this dream

[00:24:38] figures very sometimes you'll ask a

[00:24:41] dream figure a question and you'll get

[00:24:43] gobbledygook for an answer or sometimes

[00:24:46] it'll just turn away but other times

[00:24:49] you'll

[00:24:50] interact with dream figures who seem

[00:24:52] very aware and conscious and alert and

[00:24:56] sometimes they'll give you incredible

[00:24:59] explanations like for example I remember

[00:25:04] one of my first experiments as a early

[00:25:06] lucid dreamer back in the early 80s was

[00:25:09] asking a dream figure that happened to

[00:25:12] be a friend of mine to explain a dream

[00:25:15] symbol to me and so within the lucid

[00:25:17] dream I picked up a dream symbol and I

[00:25:19] said hey Andrea what does this represent

[00:25:21] so I was holding a jewel gym in my hand

[00:25:25] and she says hope and consciousness and

[00:25:28] I woke up thinking wow a dream figure

[00:25:31] analyzed a symbol within a lucid dream

[00:25:34] and I did a pretty good job of it but

[00:25:37] but what happens then as a lucid dreamer

[00:25:39] should go deeper into this you think

[00:25:41] we'll wait a second is it just telling

[00:25:43] me what I already know or is it just

[00:25:47] giving me an acceptable answer you know

[00:25:50] something that's subconsciously in the

[00:25:52] back of my mind and and so to play

[00:25:56] around with that if you want to you can

[00:25:59] you can take this much deeper for

[00:26:02] example

[00:26:04] various people on becoming lucidly aware

[00:26:09] often life people become lucidly aware

[00:26:12] when they see a deceased relative

[00:26:13] because they say wait a second uncle

[00:26:16] Uncle John he's been dead for ten years

[00:26:19] oh this must be a dream and then they

[00:26:21] become lucidly aware and I remember one

[00:26:24] time and one of my workshops a woman

[00:26:26] reported that her uncle appeared in a

[00:26:30] dream she became lucidly aware and then

[00:26:33] he came up to her and said if you want

[00:26:36] to understand the family secret because

[00:26:38] this woman reported there was a family

[00:26:40] secret in her family he goes to

[00:26:43] understand the family secret you have to

[00:26:44] go to the County Courthouse go up to

[00:26:47] this particular room on the second floor

[00:26:49] and then ask for this specific file and

[00:26:52] he gave her the number for the file from

[00:26:55] the clerk and and so the woman you know

[00:26:58] she's a good lucid dreamer she paid

[00:27:00] attention to you know the exact

[00:27:02] instructions she woke up and wrote it

[00:27:04] down

[00:27:04] a few days later she went to the County

[00:27:06] Courthouse and she asked for that

[00:27:08] specific file in that specific room and

[00:27:10] then it came to her this filed that was

[00:27:14] of the family battle about the sale of

[00:27:18] some land you know ten years before she

[00:27:22] was born and and so so when that happens

[00:27:26] that that kind of takes it to a

[00:27:28] different level because now a dream

[00:27:30] figure has given you information outside

[00:27:33] of your knowing right and and so so then

[00:27:36] that's why I try to get across this idea

[00:27:38] of dream figures varying and normally

[00:27:42] you can see it in their eyes just like

[00:27:44] if you're talking to a human if they

[00:27:47] don't seem to be very alert or if

[00:27:50] they're not looking you in the eye or

[00:27:51] whatever I would just ignore them

[00:27:53] altogether but some dream figures seem

[00:27:57] very conscious in their life and in fact

[00:27:58] I've had a number of lucid dreams where

[00:28:00] it's obvious that the dream figure was

[00:28:02] trying to get me to be lucidly aware

[00:28:04] because when I become elusively aware

[00:28:07] suddenly it congratulate Smee on

[00:28:09] becoming lucidly aware and then then

[00:28:13] I'll realize oh the same dream figure

[00:28:14] tried to get me to become lucidly aware

[00:28:16] the night before and I failed and so you

[00:28:20] begin to see that there truly is

[00:28:22] varieties of dream figures all dream

[00:28:25] figures are not created equal this is

[00:28:28] very very intriguing because we're

[00:28:30] bouncing into this sort of esoteric and

[00:28:32] the metaphysical and like precognition

[00:28:35] determining kind of things and defining

[00:28:38] information that we wouldn't otherwise

[00:28:40] have I find it I find it interesting

[00:28:43] that that the only real difference that

[00:28:47] we have the only difference that that we

[00:28:49] have between knowing that we're dreaming

[00:28:51] or sleep is that every night I lay down

[00:28:54] to go to sleep I close my eyes and and

[00:28:56] that process of waking up but if that

[00:28:58] process was erased I mean how would I

[00:29:00] know the difference between this being

[00:29:03] the the quote real world and that being

[00:29:07] the dream world exactly it's one thing

[00:29:12] that I would say about lucid dreaming is

[00:29:13] if you're good at lucid dreaming you're

[00:29:17] cool

[00:29:17] to question many basic assumptions that

[00:29:20] that you've just collected over the

[00:29:23] course of your life you know what

[00:29:26] constitutes reality is it just a matter

[00:29:29] of consensus you know what what is the

[00:29:32] minimal definition of reality well what

[00:29:35] would that be

[00:29:35] because when you become consciously

[00:29:37] aware in a lucid dream and you realize

[00:29:40] that it's a principled environment

[00:29:42] it's a has certain rules you begin to

[00:29:46] think that oh I'm learning here in my

[00:29:49] subconscious or unconscious level of my

[00:29:52] mind and then when you take it even

[00:29:54] further and begin to interact with these

[00:29:56] dream figures who seem more aware than

[00:29:58] you do or have information outside of

[00:30:00] your knowing that then it really is like

[00:30:03] an alternate reality but it's an

[00:30:06] alternate reality that occurs in the

[00:30:08] lucid dream space yeah it's fascinating

[00:30:12] really intriguing have you seen a movie

[00:30:15] called waking life yes I have you know I

[00:30:18] think that's so one of the better movies

[00:30:20] that have to do with with lucid dreaming

[00:30:23] because it brings up so many

[00:30:25] philosophical questions and and also has

[00:30:28] that kind of dreamy spirit to it

[00:30:32] and the way the figures change

[00:30:34] throughout the throughout the movie

[00:30:37] yeah that's Richard Linklater is the

[00:30:39] director of that phenomenal movie highly

[00:30:41] recommend it I mean let's let's move

[00:30:45] into some of your own personal

[00:30:47] experiences with lucid dreaming and what

[00:30:49] would what would be one of your top

[00:30:51] lucid dreams Wow

[00:30:53] you know what happened to me so I taught

[00:30:57] myself in 1975 how to lucid dream and I

[00:30:59] continued on with the practice and all

[00:31:02] but but one of the first things that

[00:31:05] happened to me was 1985 I was part of a

[00:31:09] three-year lucid dreaming group

[00:31:12] exploration group founded by woman Linda

[00:31:16] Lane

[00:31:16] Maggie own and each month we had a goal

[00:31:21] to achieve and and one month the goal

[00:31:23] was become lucidly aware and find out

[00:31:26] what the dream figures in your lucid

[00:31:29] dream represent

[00:31:31] and so I thought that's pretty easy I've

[00:31:33] done that before but what happened it

[00:31:35] was really interesting no I think it was

[00:31:37] March of 85 I was on a business trip out

[00:31:39] to Chicago I remember I had to submit my

[00:31:43] lucid dream for that month and so that

[00:31:46] night it became lucidly aware and

[00:31:48] followed a woman into an office and so

[00:31:50] now I'm inside this office I know it's a

[00:31:52] lucid dream there's a receptionist two

[00:31:55] women sitting there and a man in a

[00:31:58] three-piece suit an older man was kind

[00:32:00] of a gold chain in his pocket and all

[00:32:02] that so in my very nice Midwestern way I

[00:32:06] just walked up to him and I said excuse

[00:32:09] me

[00:32:09] what do you represent and the most

[00:32:12] incredible thing happened at that moment

[00:32:14] instead of the dream figure replying all

[00:32:17] of a sudden a voice boomed out a partial

[00:32:21] response from high above him yet this

[00:32:24] voice just boomed out this response and

[00:32:27] the response didn't make complete sense

[00:32:29] and and so I looked up into the sky and

[00:32:34] and just asked you know like now now

[00:32:38] what and then it boomed out a full

[00:32:40] response that this this gentleman

[00:32:42] represented the acquired characteristics

[00:32:44] of the happy giver and and so I thought

[00:32:48] okay I've done the assignment I figured

[00:32:51] out what this guy represents and so I'm

[00:32:53] gonna wake up and write this down before

[00:32:54] I forget and so I woke up and wrote it

[00:32:56] down and and as I was writing it down I

[00:32:58] remembered the day before I'd been in

[00:33:00] Chicago and met a woman who was the head

[00:33:01] of a non-profit and she told me oh the

[00:33:05] only reason people give to my

[00:33:06] organization is to get their name in the

[00:33:08] annual report and I thought oh boy she

[00:33:11] is such a unhappy receiver and as I

[00:33:14] walked away from her I thought in my

[00:33:16] head oh the Lord loves a happy Giver

[00:33:17] but because she was such an unhappy

[00:33:19] receiver and so I realized this was a

[00:33:22] little bit of day residue but but the

[00:33:24] important element of this was after that

[00:33:28] I began to wonder because his voice had

[00:33:31] boomed out the response and not the

[00:33:32] dream figure was there an awareness

[00:33:34] behind the dream so so could you and a

[00:33:39] lucid dream stopped relating to the

[00:33:43] dream figures and the

[00:33:44] environment and just shout out questions

[00:33:48] to your subconscious mind or this

[00:33:51] non-visible awareness behind the dream

[00:33:54] and so starting in 1985 I began to do

[00:33:58] that I would become consciously aware

[00:33:59] and I would shout out questions ike a

[00:34:03] dream show me something important for me

[00:34:06] to see and then the incredible thing is

[00:34:08] the entire lucid dream would change and

[00:34:11] I'd be looking at something incredible

[00:34:13] and so suddenly I felt like I found the

[00:34:16] most creative aspect of the lucid dream

[00:34:19] you know in in political shows sometimes

[00:34:22] they'll say follow the money or you know

[00:34:26] they'll have kind of a basic premise you

[00:34:27] know - if you want to understand the

[00:34:29] truth of something follow the money

[00:34:31] but in lucid dreaming and in the

[00:34:33] subconscious or unconscious mind if you

[00:34:35] if you want to understand something I

[00:34:37] say follow the creativity if you follow

[00:34:41] the creativity and find the most

[00:34:43] creative thing you know then then you're

[00:34:45] really onto something and it was

[00:34:48] interesting that year 1985 Stephen

[00:34:51] Laberge his first book on lucid dreaming

[00:34:53] came out and he did something very

[00:34:56] similar but not exactly the same in that

[00:35:00] first book of his he suggests that lucid

[00:35:02] dreamers become aware and then announced

[00:35:05] that they surrender to the highest and

[00:35:07] see what happens and so you become

[00:35:10] lucidly aware you ignore the dream

[00:35:12] figures and you announce now I surrender

[00:35:14] to the highest and normally he said some

[00:35:17] of his most profound lucid dreams

[00:35:18] occurred when he surrendered but when I

[00:35:21] read that I thought okay who are used to

[00:35:24] rendering - and it's interesting in that

[00:35:26] book he he just refused to say he said I

[00:35:29] was not important to think about what or

[00:35:32] who were were surrendering to but that's

[00:35:35] why I called my first book lucid

[00:35:37] dreaming gateway to the inner self as

[00:35:39] you begin to interact with this

[00:35:41] awareness behind the dream it it seems

[00:35:44] to have the qualities and

[00:35:45] characteristics of what a person would

[00:35:48] call and in herself and what would even

[00:35:51] Carl Jung kind of gave as a

[00:35:53] characteristics of a second psychic

[00:35:56] system within our

[00:35:58] unconscious mind yeah Wow quite

[00:36:01] intriguing you know I really really want

[00:36:04] to bring up the the aspect of drugs and

[00:36:08] and dreaming I mean it it seems like

[00:36:11] just DMT tMT's produced naturally in the

[00:36:15] joint in the brain so I mean if DMT is

[00:36:20] producing these dream states then could

[00:36:23] could we say that either

[00:36:25] ingesting DMT taking the MTA osku are

[00:36:29] those forms I mean could we relate this

[00:36:32] to lucid dreaming well it's interesting

[00:36:36] I don't have any first-hand experience

[00:36:39] with DMT or ayahuasca I have read

[00:36:42] ayahuasca experiences though in an

[00:36:45] anthropological reports and firsthand

[00:36:48] personal anecdotal reports and and they

[00:36:52] do seem very similar to a lucid dream

[00:36:55] because the person is consciously aware

[00:36:58] within the experience they they know

[00:37:00] they're having the experience but but

[00:37:02] the one thing about it in the ayahuasca

[00:37:05] experience you can tell that it's kind

[00:37:08] of being chemically mediated because the

[00:37:12] person is kind of following the flow of

[00:37:16] chemicals

[00:37:17] and then once the chemicals you know

[00:37:19] finally degrade within them you know

[00:37:22] then they pop out on the other side I

[00:37:23] mean but but during the experience they

[00:37:26] seem very lucid sometimes they have

[00:37:29] conversations with the figures that they

[00:37:32] meet also it's interesting that in some

[00:37:35] of these i wasin experiences people

[00:37:37] report the same thing you know of

[00:37:39] serpents or this that and the other

[00:37:43] nature aspects it that come to meet them

[00:37:46] or talk to them and all now when it

[00:37:48] comes to DMT I've had some people kind

[00:37:51] of tell me about their experiences and

[00:37:53] all they seem a little bit more like

[00:37:56] what I would call what a experienced

[00:38:02] lucid dreamer might have as you go

[00:38:05] deeper and deeper into lucid dreaming

[00:38:07] sometimes you have some very abstract

[00:38:09] experiences for example

[00:38:12] instead of meeting a dream figure you

[00:38:14] meet a ball of light or you meet a

[00:38:17] geometric form of light that

[00:38:20] communicates something to you and so

[00:38:23] that that's you know especially for

[00:38:25] someone like myself when you're not

[00:38:27] expecting to meet a geometric form of

[00:38:30] light it's kind of a wild thing you're

[00:38:33] consciously aware you interact with it

[00:38:35] but but sometimes when you hear about

[00:38:38] the DMT experiences so sometimes it

[00:38:41] makes you feel like they've gotten to

[00:38:44] that level but but what what I would do

[00:38:46] want to say though about lucid dreaming

[00:38:47] is lucid dreaming is kind of a natural

[00:38:50] progression through one's self you know

[00:38:52] through your belief system through your

[00:38:55] fears because you realize that your

[00:38:58] fears kind of inhibit your exploration

[00:39:01] within the lucid dream state so until

[00:39:03] you resolve those fears you can't go any

[00:39:05] deeper but but in some of these in some

[00:39:09] of these chemically induced states a lot

[00:39:13] of times that people are just you know

[00:39:15] the chemicals are pushing them into some

[00:39:18] really heavy-duty stuff and and how much

[00:39:21] they're really learning from the

[00:39:24] experience or how much they're really

[00:39:25] growing from the experience is a little

[00:39:27] bit hard to tell but in lucid dreaming

[00:39:29] where it's kind of a natural progression

[00:39:30] you realize that you know you naturally

[00:39:33] have to conquer your fears you naturally

[00:39:36] have to work through limiting beliefs in

[00:39:38] order to grow this experience and go

[00:39:40] deeper and deeper and deeper yeah I

[00:39:43] definitely get we were saying a friend

[00:39:45] of mine made an interesting analogy he

[00:39:48] said that that using drugs to reach this

[00:39:53] type of state is kind of like being a

[00:39:55] tourist or getting getting a ticket to

[00:39:58] an amusement park and and kind of

[00:40:01] getting on the ride and you take the

[00:40:03] ride but when it's over your memory of

[00:40:05] it is is not the same and and and you're

[00:40:09] just you're simply a tourist in these in

[00:40:10] these states whereas when you're when

[00:40:13] you're actually meditating and doing the

[00:40:15] work to reach the state because I do

[00:40:17] believe that reaching a state of lucid

[00:40:21] dreaming and dreaming conscious

[00:40:23] it does it does take this sort of mental

[00:40:26] exercise does take this this mental work

[00:40:29] so I mean what are your thoughts on that

[00:40:32] it's exactly it's exactly the case in a

[00:40:36] lucid dreaming you realize that it's not

[00:40:39] really so it's not really about control

[00:40:42] because how can you say you control the

[00:40:44] lucid dream when you ask a dream figure

[00:40:46] oh do you know I'm dreaming you and then

[00:40:49] there gives you an unexpected response

[00:40:50] like how do you know I'm not dreaming

[00:40:52] you so after a while you realize a lucid

[00:40:55] dream isn't about control

[00:40:57] sure the lucid dreamer influences things

[00:41:00] but fundamentally what lucid dreaming is

[00:41:02] about is aware relating you begin to

[00:41:07] relate to the contents of your

[00:41:10] subconscious or unconscious mind with

[00:41:13] greater awareness this aware of relating

[00:41:16] begins to show you limiting beliefs you

[00:41:19] have fears that you have issues about

[00:41:23] focus fixations that you might have and

[00:41:26] as you work through them you begin to

[00:41:29] grow and grow and grow and you can you

[00:41:32] realize you're growing because you go

[00:41:33] more deeply into lucid dreaming I

[00:41:35] remember I was going so deeply into

[00:41:38] lucid dreaming that at one point I began

[00:41:42] to see in the sky above me a banner fine

[00:41:46] saying trust nothing to fear and

[00:41:50] sometimes I'd hear a voice behind me say

[00:41:51] trust nothing to fear because as you go

[00:41:54] deeper and deeper and deeper and this is

[00:41:56] something that Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

[00:41:58] who wrote the Tibetan yoga's of dream

[00:42:01] and sleep said he said really the the

[00:42:04] dream Yoga path the lucid dreaming path

[00:42:07] is of increasing fearlessness you know

[00:42:10] you you you face your fears and you

[00:42:14] resolve them you work through them but

[00:42:16] but so lucid dreaming is a very natural

[00:42:20] process it's one of a we're relating

[00:42:23] it's one where you begin to see yourself

[00:42:26] and just not this ego waking self but

[00:42:29] there's a larger awareness you're part

[00:42:32] and parcel

[00:42:35] interesting I mean you know when we get

[00:42:37] into the science of dreaming and rapid

[00:42:40] eye movement and we're talking about

[00:42:42] different neurotransmitters that are

[00:42:44] that are happening inside the brain I

[00:42:47] mean do you think that perhaps in the

[00:42:49] future that there could be a sort of

[00:42:51] pill that I mean I know that when I take

[00:42:54] melatonin I tend to have deeper and more

[00:42:58] clear and even sometimes lucid dreams

[00:43:01] and do you think that there it's I mean

[00:43:04] do you think it's possible that we could

[00:43:06] invent something that that would allow

[00:43:08] us to lucid dream right right you know I

[00:43:11] definitely think you know there's

[00:43:13] there's basically three gateways into

[00:43:15] lucid dreaming of versus this kind of

[00:43:18] mental gateway of learning practices of

[00:43:21] being more aware of suggesting before

[00:43:23] you sleep that you'll be aware in the

[00:43:25] dream state become lucid but but there's

[00:43:27] also this biochemical path and you know

[00:43:31] for some people you know melatonin might

[00:43:34] help some people take one of the B

[00:43:39] vitamins that helps to enhance their

[00:43:41] memory right before they go to sleep but

[00:43:45] but there has been some work but by

[00:43:47] Stephen Laberge on a specific active

[00:43:53] ingredient in galantamine which is a

[00:43:56] drug used for people with Alzheimer's to

[00:44:00] make them more aware and alert in waking

[00:44:04] physical reality but but he realized

[00:44:06] that this galanthamine also seemed to

[00:44:09] help people become lucidly aware now I

[00:44:13] do want to say that this is a herb that

[00:44:17] in the u.s. is legal that people can

[00:44:20] purchase but it is a it's a really a

[00:44:23] heavy duty substance and so I don't want

[00:44:26] people to take it just thinking that

[00:44:28] it's like you know b6 or something like

[00:44:30] that it's really heavy duty thing and

[00:44:32] it's also something that you take after

[00:44:33] you've been asleep for five hours or so

[00:44:37] you don't take it when you fall asleep

[00:44:39] you take it after you wake up after

[00:44:41] about five hours and then you take it

[00:44:43] but for some people it appears to help

[00:44:45] them become lucid Leah we're

[00:44:47] now what one thing I do want to say

[00:44:49] though is I had a good friend at Kellogg

[00:44:52] who has a PhD in biochemistry from Duke

[00:44:54] and so he decided you know to

[00:44:57] investigate whether the placebo aspect

[00:45:00] plays a role here and so what he did he

[00:45:03] got 20 capsules and in half of them he

[00:45:07] put the this active ingredient

[00:45:09] galantamine and in half of them he put

[00:45:12] something corn starch or sugar or

[00:45:14] something I can't remember what but he

[00:45:16] numbered them all and gave him to a

[00:45:18] friend and then on particular days he'd

[00:45:21] asked his friend for one of the pills

[00:45:23] but telling his friend to keep the

[00:45:25] number so he'd know whether it's you

[00:45:27] know one of the Granta mean pills or one

[00:45:29] of the placebo pills and and Edie said

[00:45:32] that after he went through his study he

[00:45:35] said that he actually had more lucid

[00:45:37] dreams on the night that he took the

[00:45:40] placebo and he said he couldn't believe

[00:45:42] it because on some of those nights he

[00:45:44] had all the side effects of galantamine

[00:45:48] induced lucid dreams you know they're

[00:45:51] they're much longer they're more stable

[00:45:53] sometimes they're a little bit more

[00:45:55] fantastical but sometimes you have

[00:45:57] bought at bodily feelings of kind of

[00:45:59] feeling very hot and and in the morning

[00:46:01] you're kind of drugged out like you you

[00:46:03] know had too much to drink too much to

[00:46:07] drink exactly and so so what's

[00:46:09] interesting about this is that even

[00:46:12] though there might be a biochemical

[00:46:15] doorway and even though someday we might

[00:46:17] have the perfect thing that gets us all

[00:46:20] into lucid dreaming just by pumping a

[00:46:22] pill that still there's this placebo

[00:46:24] aspect that that can't be avoided it's

[00:46:29] really fascinating because I mean the

[00:46:31] placebo trick is really interesting it

[00:46:33] just shows you how powerful the mind is

[00:46:36] and how powerful our brains are that

[00:46:38] we're somehow able to produce this state

[00:46:42] by just taking like a pill you know when

[00:46:47] my first book came out a fan of the book

[00:46:50] sent me his device is kind of a dream

[00:46:53] mass that you'd put on your eyes before

[00:46:56] you go to sleep and it would flash

[00:46:58] lights in your eyes when it realized you

[00:47:00] were dreaming

[00:47:01] and so he sent me this thing he had

[00:47:03] created and and it had all these strange

[00:47:05] instructions and the first night I set

[00:47:07] it up and that I woke up in the middle

[00:47:09] of night I realized this the silly thing

[00:47:11] wasn't working and so then the next

[00:47:13] night I set it up again and got it all

[00:47:16] configured and it's not okay this time

[00:47:17] it's really gonna work and that night

[00:47:19] I'm driving down 13th Street all of a

[00:47:21] sudden I see there's a car in the ditch

[00:47:22] and it's lights are flashing red red red

[00:47:26] and I think Oh red lights this is a

[00:47:28] dream and I became lucidly aware and had

[00:47:31] a wonderful lucid dream but but you know

[00:47:33] what when I woke up and looked at this

[00:47:35] little machine device I realized once

[00:47:37] again it hadn't worked and that my mind

[00:47:41] just by expecting red lights flashing

[00:47:44] had created red lights flashing so you

[00:47:47] write this this placebo aspect the

[00:47:51] incredible creativity of belief and

[00:47:53] expectation in our mind often results in

[00:47:56] experience yeah yeah it's it's

[00:48:00] intriguing to me I find this whole

[00:48:03] aspect of you know just that we go to

[00:48:06] sleep and that you know dreams represent

[00:48:09] these different structures were either

[00:48:12] resolving conflict some conflict or just

[00:48:15] kind of dumping information out that we

[00:48:18] experience through the day and then

[00:48:20] eventually getting to a point where

[00:48:22] we're able to control these these states

[00:48:25] to find new information to reach sort of

[00:48:31] these esoteric States or gaining I don't

[00:48:34] know just information there's there's no

[00:48:37] way for us to know and perhaps even

[00:48:40] getting to a point where we are reaching

[00:48:44] states of encountering God like like

[00:48:47] images or or archetypes exactly when you

[00:48:53] get into lucid dreaming you know it

[00:48:54] first hurts the kind of fun and play

[00:48:56] aspect that can be very distracting but

[00:48:59] but after you've been a lucid dreamer

[00:49:01] for a few years you realize you want to

[00:49:03] go further and one of the first things

[00:49:04] that people do is they begin to access

[00:49:06] creativity so like an artist might ask

[00:49:10] show me a painting the most incredible

[00:49:13] painting that I can create

[00:49:14] when I turn around and when they turn

[00:49:16] around here's an incredible painting or

[00:49:18] I remember a novelist told me that

[00:49:21] whenever he got stuck writing the novel

[00:49:23] he would call out in a lucid dream

[00:49:26] hey novel figures come here and tell me

[00:49:29] what's wrong with our novel and all of a

[00:49:31] sudden the novel characters would appear

[00:49:33] and they would tell him you know how to

[00:49:35] improve the novel or how to resolve it

[00:49:37] and so you can access creativity but

[00:49:40] then you realize well wait a second you

[00:49:42] can take this even further you can begin

[00:49:43] to resolve emotional problems like

[00:49:46] phobias and anxiety and recurring

[00:49:49] nightmares that then there's a lot of

[00:49:51] people who have had experiences with

[00:49:53] improving their health

[00:49:55] apparently in lucid dreams you know they

[00:49:57] become lucidly aware and they focus on

[00:49:59] healing something and in the morning

[00:50:02] they wake up and you know their back is

[00:50:04] better or their knees better or the the

[00:50:06] fever has gone away and so it seems you

[00:50:09] know when you're at this really deep

[00:50:10] state you can really influence things

[00:50:12] and then beyond that there's just

[00:50:15] learning about the nature of the

[00:50:16] unconscious mind and and finally it's

[00:50:18] like you say you can also do spiritual

[00:50:20] practices in a lucid dream and and

[00:50:24] oftentimes you realize that they're very

[00:50:26] powerful in fact Buddhists would often

[00:50:29] say that an action performed at the

[00:50:31] level of a lucid dream is seven times

[00:50:34] more powerful than one performed at the

[00:50:36] waking state and I think they say that

[00:50:39] because you're at this deep level of the

[00:50:41] unconscious mind already here you know

[00:50:44] when you're meditating during the day

[00:50:46] you know there's still maybe a part of

[00:50:48] you that's thinking oh yeah I got to

[00:50:49] pick up my son at 4 o'clock and oh yeah

[00:50:52] tomorrow I'm getting a haircut and you

[00:50:54] got all these little distractions

[00:50:55] occurring and you know your back hurts

[00:50:58] or whatever your need this that or the

[00:51:00] other but when you're consciously aware

[00:51:01] in a lucid dream oftentimes you have an

[00:51:04] enormous clarity of thought I mean it's

[00:51:07] you're very focused you're the the

[00:51:11] clarity is much more and so then when

[00:51:13] you intend to do something like meditate

[00:51:15] in a lucid dream the first time I

[00:51:17] meditated in a lucid dream it it just

[00:51:19] totally blew my mind yeah I couldn't

[00:51:21] believe that you could achieve such a

[00:51:24] profound state or within a minute or so

[00:51:27] and that was spending one minute

[00:51:30] meditating with in a lucid dream there's

[00:51:33] a friend of mine Claire Johnson who says

[00:51:35] that she's repeatedly meditated within a

[00:51:39] lucid dream and she says now in her

[00:51:42] waking practice what used to take her 20

[00:51:45] minutes to get to a certain level now

[00:51:48] she says because of these lucid dreams

[00:51:50] where she's meditated she says it's like

[00:51:52] within five or six minutes she's at this

[00:51:55] incredible level that they used to take

[00:51:57] her 20 minutes to get to so so you see

[00:52:00] that lucid dreaming is really a

[00:52:01] revolutionary psychological tool because

[00:52:05] it can be used for anything for

[00:52:06] creativity for healing for a spiritual

[00:52:09] growth for inner transformation but of

[00:52:12] course you have to know how to go about

[00:52:14] it and and kind of what the rules are

[00:52:17] definitely and Robert I mean we're

[00:52:20] approaching the end here but I mean when

[00:52:22] I was when I was doing the research for

[00:52:24] the show I was I I tried to find kind of

[00:52:27] the origins of you know dream analysis

[00:52:30] like what which cultures were kind of

[00:52:33] studying the dreams the most and and I

[00:52:35] found I found the Egyptians were really

[00:52:39] big on dreaming they thought that it was

[00:52:42] a technological force and that there are

[00:52:46] these these old hieroglyphs of this sort

[00:52:49] of winged bird with a human head coming

[00:52:53] to the person sleeping and kind of

[00:52:55] relaying this this information so I mean

[00:52:58] they're you know it spans through human

[00:53:01] history that that dreams are highly

[00:53:04] valued and I mean it in the work that

[00:53:08] you're doing and and you know kind of

[00:53:10] making people aware of you know the

[00:53:12] power of their own minds and how to

[00:53:15] lucid dream is is intriguing the depth

[00:53:20] of it is what's fascinating native wind

[00:53:22] when you become consciously aware within

[00:53:24] the unconscious I mean if you know how

[00:53:27] to go about it you've opened up a whole

[00:53:29] new vast field

[00:53:32] oftentimes in those intro to psychology

[00:53:34] courses you know they'll show the

[00:53:36] conscious mind is kind of an iceberg and

[00:53:39] everything above the water you know is

[00:53:41] consciousness and then immediately below

[00:53:43] the water well that's the subconscious

[00:53:45] and then the bulk of things is the

[00:53:48] unconscious and when you get into lucid

[00:53:51] dreaming you're consciously aware and

[00:53:53] able to explore the unconscious and for

[00:53:57] the other experience lucid dreamers out

[00:53:58] there that they know like I do that it's

[00:54:01] utterly profound and also totally

[00:54:06] underappreciated by psychology and

[00:54:09] science but hopefully we're in the early

[00:54:11] innings and someday people will really

[00:54:13] see the revolutionary psychological tool

[00:54:15] that lucid dreaming is what helps I'm

[00:54:17] truly hope so I mean um it's so okay so

[00:54:20] to kind of finish up here I mean

[00:54:22] what-what would be one kind of tactic

[00:54:25] and I know you mentioned looking at your

[00:54:27] hands is that the primary way of kind of

[00:54:29] reminding yourself that you're in within

[00:54:32] a lucid dream you know I think for

[00:54:36] beginners that's a good way to start

[00:54:37] just every night before you go to sleep

[00:54:39] look at your hands tell yourself tonight

[00:54:41] my dreams when I see my hands will

[00:54:42] realize I'm dreaming and just focus on

[00:54:44] your hands let your eyes cross or do

[00:54:47] whatever but just keep focused on them

[00:54:49] but you have to do it every night just

[00:54:51] like Ivan Pavlov rang the bell every

[00:54:54] time he fed fed the dogs but eventually

[00:54:57] your hands are gonna pop up in front of

[00:54:59] you also you can do it during the day

[00:55:01] just look at your hands briefly tonight

[00:55:02] my dreams you see my hands are realized

[00:55:04] I'm dreaming you know just as a reminder

[00:55:05] but what you do during the day

[00:55:07] oftentimes through what they call

[00:55:09] continuity Theory continues in the dream

[00:55:12] state and so if you do this enough this

[00:55:14] kind of reality checking during the day

[00:55:16] it'll appear in your lucid dreams and

[00:55:19] also there's just the power of

[00:55:20] suggestion tonight my dreams I'll be

[00:55:23] more critically aware and when I see

[00:55:24] something odd I'll realize I'm dreaming

[00:55:27] just some suggestion like that also kind

[00:55:29] of Prime's a pump and creates the proper

[00:55:32] atmosphere for lucid dreaming yeah and

[00:55:34] like you said I mean we spend a third of

[00:55:36] our lives dreaming so it's it's a big

[00:55:39] part of it I mean Robert working people

[00:55:41] you know get your book find you and what

[00:55:44] do you I mean what are you up to are you

[00:55:45] teaching any workshops same time soon

[00:55:47] yeah yeah all the Halloween weekend

[00:55:53] I'll be in Ireland doing a dream yoga

[00:55:56] lucid dreaming workshop and so you can

[00:55:59] find out about what I'm up to at lucid

[00:56:01] advice.com or you can of course find my

[00:56:04] books at major bookstores independent

[00:56:08] bookstores or at amazon.com but the

[00:56:11] magazine that I co-edit is that lucid

[00:56:13] dream magazine calm and so all those

[00:56:15] places are ways that you can find out

[00:56:17] what I'm up to and and kind of see

[00:56:19] what's happening in the lucid dream

[00:56:21] space very cool and I found I found your

[00:56:24] book to be a huge resource I mean it was

[00:56:26] it covers all the aspects of lucid

[00:56:29] dreaming it was a good read oh thanks

[00:56:32] thanks it's really something that I'm

[00:56:33] totally passionate about and also I

[00:56:36] would just want to remind people you

[00:56:37] know that by now a bit and lucid

[00:56:40] dreaming for 40 years and so my books

[00:56:41] are written with a lot of experience

[00:56:43] it's not something that I picked up

[00:56:45] three years ago and written a book about

[00:56:47] it is something I've spent decades of

[00:56:49] working on but but I want to thank you

[00:56:51] so much for having me this has been a

[00:56:52] lot of fun yeah absolutely thank you so

[00:56:54] much for your presence here this is the

[00:56:56] human experience we will see you guys

[00:56:58] next week or within a lucid dream if

[00:57:00] you're having one thank you guys so much

[00:57:02] for listening

[00:57:11] you