Episode 45 Transcript – Dean Radin


UNEDITED RAW TRANSCRIPT FILE

all that what what are you doing well did the answer is he was curious years here something that looks like a spark and may which related to these bolts of lightning and this is the essence of scientific exploration and you don’t need a reason other than curiosity Benjamin Franklin might have been able to imagine that someday we have multi-gigawatt power grids around the world but I doubt it you don’t need even look that that long-ago to people are developing the first computers were thinking that why would anybody need more than a mainframe for anything so they very limited foresight even in a realm were studying precognition it’s very difficult know eventually what this is going to turn into the best we have our stories that we your about from from science-fiction fairytales but even those are pretty well constrained you do occasionally find a science fiction story that correctly anticipates something about future but most of the time it’s future technology and so here were talking about something which is way more fundamental than than simply technological advancement so for example we go back to 1900 when the Lord Kelvin otherwise known is William Thompson gave a talk to the Royal Society about the state of physics and he said more or less that physics is pretty well wrapped up except for two clouds and by the did two clouds that he was talking about where you are saying that thermodynamics looks like it explains everything in the natural world so if you thinking about going in the physics don’t even bother except for these two things the ultraviolet catastrophe in the luminous ether those are the two unsolved mysteries well one turn in relativity any of the turn and quantum mechanics so from 1900 to that the beginning of the 21st century that span of 100 years if you had talked the physicists at the beginning of the 20th century they would have no idea at all about what was about to happen mean they were in the midst of the industrial age where the everything was thought to be totally modern and up-to-date basically finished and the world completely changed because of these two little problems that have not been solved well today we have two little problems that have been solved one is called quality of the Netherlands called quantum quality of first to in our experience the sense of awareness and quantum refers to the quantum measurement problem mainly that somehow the physical world seems to respond to measurement some weird way so a lot of physicists are saying while those are two minor things that will eventually wrap up I don’t think so I think when we begin to understand these two little clouds it will have as big an impact as the two clouds that William Thompson was talking about in 1900 it will totally revolutionize civilization really want to be able to imagine the future in which we are actively using telepathy to communicate is this is something in the realm of of your imagination is as well I mean you you are scientist and in youth kind live this then and this is your career so well if we are lucky enough to survive as a species given the accumulating apocalyptic scenarios that faces now and then eventually science will catch up to a better understanding of psychic and mystical experience as a said just before that that will cause a very radical change in her understanding about who we are a relationship to universe how it all works natural to think if you imagine at this point that we suddenly have the magic pill and make everybody telepathic that would probably destroy the world pretty quickly and you can see this in fiction through stories of her movies like forbidden planet that we simply don’t have the capacity yet to have good control over our our whims and desires and our society and our laws and virtually every piece of the way that we interact with each other assumes privacy and and also assumes responsibility for your actions well if you now are living in a hive mind you know this is portrayed in fiction such the Borg it’s the invasion of the body snatchers it’s every alien invasion where you get absorbed into the into the grand mind this is always presented as horrific and I think the reason is that partially an American thing that we like to imagine were they the rugged independent cowboy but the reality is that were already extremely dependent on each other and the level of dependency would go up to such a higher degree that most of the engine a society would have to change it would change quickly you can’t have you can’t have for example a huge difference there is a huge disparity and people will have an enormous amount person people who don’t have an enormous amount because part of that the issue about becoming telepathic is a you feel other people’s pain of your billionaire in walking past people were starving on the streets that can happen and so it is that go way how does it go away there has to be a gigantic redistribution of wealth there’s begins to spin out pretty great pretty quickly that the way that society is now will collapse very fast and that’s dangerous you don’t want things to collaborate quickly one thunderclap collapse in it in a graceful way and it slowly in ways that it’s under control because otherwise who knows how to build back up and this of course is another storyline and want to science-fiction on the way that post-apocalyptic societies will rebuild themselves in many different ways of doing that so Dr. sorry so might my hope is that when when we get closer to technologies in pharmaceuticals and other kinds of methods that can enhance psychic experience because I think we’re headed in that direction the all a lot of attention is paid to the unintended consequences of it and so one possibility is that it will create secret cabals of super psychics who it which is in itself is extremely dangerous because they can take over the world pretty quickly and at yet another science-fiction scenario it it might if were very lucky and leaders pay attention to this they could be a way of slowly introducing these kinds of concepts and a case can be made without too much conspiratorial thinking that one of the reasons that their movies about these scenarios is to remind the population that what if we were able to do this that movies like Lucy for example or limitless the kind of pushing in that direction and the reason I like both of those pictures is that although there is a lot of action and and so want their very different than a lot of the previous films all of which devolved very quickly into horror the Lucy didn’t evolve into horror and ordered limitless they had much more positive spin to the story so I’m encouraged to see that in a know that their number people in Hollywood who are interested in the same trend to say now this is actually part of human potential in human evolution and there are positive aspects to it as well Dr. Rita in in some of the documentaries like DMT the spirit molecule I think it was some Dennis McKenna was talking about how during some of the Shimane experiences they feel of the talk to various intelligences are get get pieces of information and you know you just mentioned the idea of plantar chemical substances enhancing psychic ability and one of the things it’s always always wanted to ask Dr. McKenna or his brother is you know if if if a person were to get a piece of information in an altered state is there any way to that can be verified is it’s a cover comfort you to question but maybe you could just be to that or even to the whole issue of do you feel that any plant substances can enhance psychic ability in any real substance of way that can be measured in the laboratory that sort of thing I’ve spoken to researchers who at medical schools were studying substances like a psilocybin and DMT and they’re very interested in the same question because her subjects involving experiments talk about it all the time that minimum they talk about telepathy is just overwhelmingly strong so we talked about how do you do an experiment with somebody in these in the states where we view have the same level of control as you would if in the laboratory where you know what chances and you get people to do these somewhat artificial tasks and at this point we don’t know how to do it because when the things that happens in an extreme altered states of awareness is that people don’t want to play anymore so I know for my own experience that if if you’re intoxicated enough depending on the substance with somebody present you with the task now I wanted to do this medicine that Matt internal you’re thinking that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of wine a one what I want to do that on want to do that now I want to enjoy the experience so that the closest we’ve come to thinking about how to do this is to work with participants who have asked the lots and lots of experience example was psilocybin so they know what experiences like they are comfortable with it and they can still do tasks and so there’s the possibility in still in the future of doing experiments like a present an experiment with you at the cognitively do anything were just of monitoring the body and watching what happens there’s the possibility opening for experiments that can be verified that the difficulty with it is that because those the drug experiments are still considered controversial that just like I don’t want to mix UFOs and the SP people doing psychedelic research don’t want to mix it with some I even those probably overlap it simply to to sensitive to do that so weekly keep things separate for the sake of keeping the science we are certainly covering very intriguing material tonight and we are approaching the end here Dr. Ream but I would like to ask you if you if there if there was anything we’ve been doing this for a while and you have you learned a lot of is there anything that you would tell your younger self be aware of her in that you would go back and could tell yourself yeah I would tell myself and graduate school to take courses in the sociology of science and probably the philosophy of science as well because he knew it was a rude awakening for me after had gotten into this field and was working on it for a while to see that the aspiration of science is a rational enterprise is simply not true academic freedom is in true the idea that scientists will evaluate data rationally is not true all of those stories that we we hear about the way that sciences different from religion is different from politics all that it simply not true science is another human activity and that is the same frailties is every every other kind of activity the only thing that science has going for it is that there’s very strong emphasis on rigorous methods and consensus opinion so those are good unfortunately consensus opinion is also enormously efficient block for things that don’t happen to fit the prevailing view points so for many respects it’s amazing that science is done as well as it has and unfortunately is science becomes more more of a career rather than a matter of expressing your curiosity people find it more and more constraints about what they talk about in what mean by this is I’m kind of a lightning rod for scientists who are interested in this topic so I get a lot of phone calls and emails from professors all over the place who are just anxious to tell me about their interests and psychic phenomenon sometimes are experiences and in the end of every conversation is the same don’t tell me body that I spoke you don’t tell anybody that I do this experiment in heaven published in the not going to publish it even though turned out good because there is a taboo the taboo is you don’t is like fight club first rule is you don’t talk about it is second will never go there all the same rule don’t talk about this because is damaging for your you’re standing in your career so I would warn myself as as it even the fledgling scientist the simply be aware that he carries a certain amount of risk whenever you start pushing against the prevailing viewpoint and I don’t think I would’ve done anything different class I guess I’m enough of an iconoclast that I don’t care very much about what other people think but I have just been astonished really to see firsthand cases of people who and any other condition you consider to be very smart very accommodating very tolerant and completely insane when it comes to topics like this introductory and I can totally understand your frustration is a scientist I don’t want to doing molecular biology experiments in I’m off in a different direction right now I think the curiosity you mentioned is so key I mean you mentioned moving on from wondering if side effects areola now wondering how their work out actually work and I think that is so so true I mean I can’t think of any other question more fascinating at this time in history then how are these effects working you know it’s they cannot be blocked by 30 Keach the I think there was an experiment with are not blocked at the bottom of the ocean you know it’s just totally amazing so I think your work is really it’s really cool and so it but encourages me about all this is that if you fight were to segregate scientists by their age the younger the scientist is the more open they are about their interest in the more willing they are to come out of the closet so to speak that’s a very encouraging sign and this essentially is how sciences progressed that the note science progresses by funerals as Max Planck said in this case the evidence continues to compound the empirical evidence keeps compounding it gets better and better with time eventually with my people find better and better ways of presenting the evidence even with explanations that are not really correct but sound plausible that we all have to deal with the baggage of older scientists because it go away eventually and younger scientist of course that are immediately to be attracted to these topics so the older I get the more important it is site that for when I can offer it at this point is to write papers and books mainly targeting younger scientist and when we can tell for example when we publish a paper on a site like frontiers we get tens of thousands of downloads well you don’t know what ages are doing the downloading but just statistically a lot of more young people are living on the Internet than older people so it’s a it’s a good bet that a lot of the interest is from younger folks that’s that’s for encouraging Dr. Ream you are one the men who stare at futons apparently and I really do appreciate your time certain should you giving on closing here with our guest you have one small question doctrine used in these experiments were people affect random number generators just real quick years is there an us an effect where if 10 people are first focusing their attention or hundred people are focusing their attention it will be different than one person trying to show some in the laboratory well unfortunately without dealing with the linear effect they live the best metaphor in think of is something like a soap bubble that if you have all one person who is is trying to balance soap bubble they can do certain degree and give to people helping that doesn’t necessarily help because they may not be handling in the same way and he conversed it if you 10 people all trying to do it same time he conversed real fast so the important ingredient that seems to help is coherence among people and it does occur occasionally when it occurs people know it instantly some kind of their in the zone they feel something gel in the crowd but it’s relatively rare it’s very difficult to actually produce on the mail but when that happens experiments like field consciousness experiments do show that randomness begins to respond very quickly ago the basically start to become patterned so that the so it’s not a it’s a nonlinear effect and in the moment you get into nonlinearity it’s a much more complicated answer than simply 10 is better than one while very powerful absurd here where can people find your work with his was the next step for you well to sites one is noetic.org which is the Institute of noetic sciences website my own website is Dean rate and.com the sites for testing your abilities include got site.work and sire K.com of together they’ve collected a half 1 billion trials from about half 1 million people and burned up in the midst of creating a smart phone version of those test that because thank you which is in by analogy to IQ were attempting to establish population norms for different kinds of psychic ability that people can carry around on their cell phones this is the human experience my name is Xavier swapping my guest and we should think you we are to get out here we will see you guys next week

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