Episode 138 – Chris Bennett – Ancient Cannabis, Gnosticism, Eco-Humans

welcome to the human experience podcast the only podcast designed to fuse your left and right brain hemispheres and feed it the most entertaining and mentally engaging topics on the planet as we approach our ascent please make sure your frontal temporal and occipital lobes are in their full upright position as you take your seat of consciousness relax your senses and allow us to take you on a journey we are the intimate strangers thank you for listening the

human experience is in session my name is Xavier katana ladies and gentlemen we’ve got an incredible show planned for you folks tonight so sit back grab a drink and preferably a smoke for this episode and enjoy this conversation my guest for today is mr. Chris Bennett Chris Bennett has been researching the historical role of cannabis in the spiritual life of humanity for more than a quarter of a century Chris is widely recognized as one of the foremost

authorities on the history of cannabis having written dozens of articles in cannabis culture High Times and other magazines as well as three books dealing with the subject Bennett’s research has received international attention from the BBC Guardian Sunday Times Washington Post’s vice and now the human experience he currently resides in Vancouver British Columbia Chris it’s a pleasure welcome to hxp so glad to have you on the show Chris why don’t you kick this

off with just a brief introduction very briefly of who you are and what you do please well thank you I’ve got a shop here in Vancouver called the urban shaman and we provide a variety of in theo botanical plants peyote ayahuasca things like that and i’m also a cannabis researcher i’ve written four books actually on the history of cannabis greengold material like marijuana religion which came out in 2005 sex drugs violence in the Bible which came

out in 2001 cannabis in the soma solution which came out in 2010 and more recently or Liebherr 4/20 cannabis magical herbs and the occult which came out in 2018 mm-hmm I mean you’ve been doing you can researching and doing this for a long time but did you just say that you provide you know ayahuasca and peyote there in Canada yeah whatever plants I can that are not scheduled here you know uh within reason but a variety of plants

like that and I’ve been doing that here for a very long time I also have the retreat here in British Columbia soma Institute which facilitates that type of thing as well okay okay cool so you know let’s let’s dive in here Chris I mean in 1990 you experienced a profound religious experience where it was revealed to you that cannabis was what the tree of life in the Bible Book of Revelations I mean there was a dream journal involved and some of the imagery

related to the various references in the Book of Revelations how did how this happen tell us about this experience you know I think a lot of religious experience it was a combination of events and also substances you know in my case it was cannabis but I’d you know these cannabis for a long time before that and hadn’t had any sort of experience like this but in regards to events the first of the events that took place was here in Canada there was a

really big scandal involving the Catholic Church where they had been exposed for pedophilia at the Mount Cashel orphanage and what had happened is kids had grown up and started coming out and talking about it was the first time this sort of thing was even talked about in the press here and that got me interested I was like what gee I thought religion was about something other than that I’m gonna read the Bible and I started I had a job as a night watchman

had a lot of time to read you know and I started reading the Bible coinciding with this I found out about the industrial applications of hemp how we could make all our paper out of cannabis all our our clothes are even fuel at the Mendeley good source of protein and the seeds and other things like that and then also coinciding was the Gulf War started in Iraq and Saddam Hussein that fired a scud missile into Israel and because of this people were beginning to

compare him to Nebuchadnezzar it was the last king of babylon babylon since in Iraq and Saddam looked at comparison and so one night I was sitting in this fish plant where I was a night watchman about 2:00 in the morning and I was reading this newspaper and in those days they used to advertise television in a newspaper there’s no internet and there was an advertisement for a sermon by Pat Robertson and it said revelations 18 the

fall of Babylon there’s Robertson at the pulpit behind he’s got picture tanks and jets and I was like reading it and I was like whoa they’re tying in the book of Revelation with this gulf war in Iraq and I thought well I’m going to read the book of Revelation right now and so I have this Bible that I had sitting in the night watchman’s office you know and I began reading it at the beginning of the story in the book of Revelation John of Patmos

is given a scroll and he puts it in his mouth and it tastes as sweet as honey and he swallows it it turns bitter in his stomach and he begins to prophesize and I I was like what on earth did he ingest to get that effect you know uh-huh and I started reading further and it started talking about they were all wearing sackcloth they were given much incense to offer and the billowing clouds of incense contained the prayers of the saints and it was really tripping

out thinking this is some pretty weird imagery and I got to the very end by the book of Revelation one of the last two paragraphs in the Bible revelations 22 and it said on either side of the River of Life stood the tree of life bearing 12 manners of fruit yielding is fruit each month and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nation’s and when I read that I had this really crazy experience where I felt like light just beamed right into my body and I was

like whoa man this is a reference to cannabis and all its uses for fiber for fuel for paper and it’s healing leaves it’s medicinal qualities you know and I just I couldn’t shake it and I called my wife up time that I was married to and she started crying and thinking I had some sort of mental breakdown you know and then the next day I got up and was like was there anything to that or was I just like tripping out and I decided at that

point well you know I was pretty sure about hemp and I was gonna promote that and then I would just start collecting everything I could regarding the role of cannabis in religion and I started you know accumulating a lot of information and I guess the dream journal thing you mentioned that came later a couple years later I had a dream where I was locking along a riverbed and I found an oblong stone with an image in script and on it

and I drew it down on my dream journal and later on I came across these Assyrian images that purported to be images of the Tree of Life you know and the Assyrians were spiritual and medicinal cannabis users as well there’s lots of references in Assyria literature to it and I was like whoa this is the same image you know that I had in my dream and since then an archaeologist in Britain has also suggested based on her own independent research that these same

images Julianne Steen Julie unseen are also related to cannabis and their original there’s there’s a lot to that theory okay okay so yeah okay let’s talk about the archaeological evidence of the cannabis use in ancient civilizations particularly with the relationship to the Middle East which you were just referencing what does I mean what what time frame are we talking about we’re talking about what five thousand years ago evidence for archaeological evidence

of cannabis you know for fiber cannabis which is you know cannabis used for rope or for clothing we can go back 25 thousand years you know on in Czechoslovakia they found evidence of hemp rope going back this far and Elizabeth Whelan barber who’s probably the foremost authority on the ancient textiles has suggested tools used for breaking up hemp fiber it can be dated back to 28,000 years in regards to smoking and actually the oldest an alien

you know I’m not like smoking and pipes or bones or joints everything I got but inhaling from sensors there is evidence from the Ukraine region which purports to be 5,500 years old of a poly pod bowl that was used to burn cannabis textual evidence in Egypt for for the use of cannabis goes back like 3500 years we have a Syrian references you know like three thousand twenty-eight hundred years ago starting you know our archaeological evidence of

a Cynthia use going back to around that same sort of time period recently in China they found very well-preserved evidence of high THC content cannabis at a number of different sites ranging from like 2900 to 2500 BC and textual references in lecture a Syrian literature probably like 2500 years Siri simulation I mentioned before about 20 hundred years 2000 so in Persians are yet persons are astral every sure I mean in the vatta’s there’s evidence of that

that’s probably like 3,500 years old you know it goes way way back in a variety of cultures in China as well it’s thought to be referred to in what is thought to be the oldest pharmacopoeia the Penta sow of Emperor Shennong which some have dated as far back as 2700 BC so you know in the oldest pharmacopoeias area Vetta a Syrian medical text Egyptian medical tax there’s there’s references to medical use of cannabis and also religious use of cannabis and a

lot of these texts as well yeah you know I read this article of a pouch found I’m not sure where it was I think it was in Siberia or something like that where there was you know they found some bones and as well they found like a pouch with this residue of cannabis and some other drugs as well even cocaine leaves coca leaves recently there was a South American couch with evidence of plants using ayahuasca buckle teen I think some coca leaf and that was like a

thousand years ago but they have found pouches with preserved cannabis at the insights from 2700 years ago Scythian czar a very ancient culture and a lot of people credit them with spreading it because they were nomadic horse riders and horse riding itself is thought to have been developed by an ant ancestor of the Sith Ian’s the sir Denny’s dog and it’s believed that the horse was actually domesticated through the development of hemp ropes which

allowed for them to be corralled and untied up and things like that which was necessary in their domestication and it’s interesting because it’s in the same culture that we find the oldest evidence for for burnt cannabis and thus if Ian’s we know did it this same way because Herodotus wrote about them heating up stones and putting them in these small tepee light tent structures and then throwing cannabis on the stones and then sticking their heads in the

tents to inhale the fumes and this was a pretty widespread practice among indo-european cultures we know that indo-europeans in China that had a I do do being nomads and ended up in China and lived there for about 2,000 to 400 BC before the indigenous Han Chinese change chased them out of that region also practiced his same method and these are these more recent finds of really well-preserved cannabis they know as high THC content most recent news

stories about this area involve a brazier with the same sort of hot rock system and the cannabis thrown on it the decisions in you know a Russia and even into the Mideast and Persia were practicing and other finds in the same region and involved a bouquet of female cannabis flowers placed on the body of a burial person and also two pounds of perfectly preserved cannabis female cannabis in another site you know buried in another tomb with a mummified money

so yeah pretty pretty fascinating stuff and this this culture here in China the trim basin they actually exported cannabis from out that area you know what we’ve referred to as the Silk Road in fact of these these recent discoveries of these indo-europeans in China have changed the day to the Silk Road usually thought to have started around you know 100 BC back 2,000 years earlier roughly you know and it’s as much a hempen highway as it was a silk

road because it is certain that a high quality cannabis traveled out of this region just as other Goods traveled into it from other areas via these trade routes so it seems clear that there is a direct relationship to this plant being used widely through ancient civilization everywhere in the in the same piece that you wrote that I just mentioned in my previous question for cannabis culture you quoted Diana Steen yeah that’s right

you know you mentioned you mentioned that archaeologists have have long studied the the science of this ritualistic use involving drugs and they didn’t realize it in some way how do they not how did I realize it I think there’s a lot of bias you know like people that don’t use psychoactive substances and psychedelics cannabis or stuff like that often don’t realize the implications of references when they come across it that you know they don’t

really think is that important but you know it’s very important because these things alter our perception and this is why they were using these types of rituals you know in some of the older references say like in in in those Arian accounts people would drink cannabis infusions and in cannabis infused into wine these were so powerful that they would actually knock you out for a couple of days and they would come back after being knocked out and reported all

sorts of visions that they thought were quite real events you know why one figure are to veer off he his visions are what developed into what we call heaven and hell you know he reported how the righteous were rewarded and the evil were punished and described heavenly like communities as well as people being punished in oh you know as well as what is considered by many the prototype of the book of Revelation the Oracle of high

stas pious a persian figure a king no one is fished asthma but in greek i stas pious he is his vision of the end of time was produced by drinking the same concoction and in these controversial references that a number of researchers have sent a references to cannabis in the Hebrew under the name kin of awesome the idea here is that in the first of these references in Exodus 30 23 God who first appears to Moses and flames of fire from within a burning bush

Commandos is to make a holy anointing oil with about 9 pounds of cannabis mixed with myrrh and cinnamon into about 6 liters of olive oil and every time that Moses is to speak to the Lord he goes and what is referred to as the tent of the meeting which is much like the Scythian enclosures an enclosed tent-like structure meant to hold smoke and fumes and then he would place some of this same holy wood on coil on his skin within your skins a big organ

th-these fatty soluble and is thought to be able to pass through the skin has been shown to in scientific stats and he would also play some of this oil on the altar of incense and he would speak to the lord in the pillar of smoke over the altar of incense the the pillar of smoke is actually referred to as the second on refers to the physical presence of God in the temple and so the only time Moses is speaking of the Lord is when there’s

smoke pouring out of his 10th meeting so when you throw cannabis into a situation like that now was Moses talking to some sort of discarnating entity that was commanding him to go him to Canon and take over the land and bring new laws to his people or was Moses like a shaman who is still to this day in South America or Africa takes psychoactive substances and interpret the experience of that scent of psychoactive substances as some sort of possession or

communication with another deity ok ok ok so we’re gonna get there we’re gonna get to that point but I want to talk a little bit more about just the I mean there seems to be a little bit of controversy because of what you say is linguistic or etymology Caleta ma logical issues words that are used or misused in the history in the usage of the history of cannabis how how do you think that affects the literature and how we understand you know if

cannabis is being used or something else well you know the Hebrew references I just referred to that’s a little more controversial you know not not by far the not that many people know about these references that you know even study Hebrew and stuff like that it’s pretty specific stuff right and are unaware of the controversy and you have to really lay out the evidence for it in a big way and there’s a lot of evidence for kind of Awesome being cannabis

there’s been other plants suggested as well though as I mentioned calamus a sweet sweet grass other things as well cinnamon even and there’s you know debate about it but I would say that you need to take a look at the evidence for it and you know one of the things in the evidence is something that’s less controversial and this is the idea that Assyrian references to canoe which is very phonetically similar to kind of Awesome i phonetically meaning sounds

very similar the way it’s spelt and whatnot and it’s used in an identical way as an incense and a holy anointing oil and a medicine and these are widely accepted you know as being references to cannabis by Assyria all disappear and the Syrian a cyclopædia isn’t that type of thing as the most likely thing but you know it’s still not a hundred percent because it’s not physical evidence physical evidence trumps everything you know what I mean and

that’s what’s so nice in the cases where we can provide actual archaeological evidence which is difficult to find when you’re dealing with a plant because plant material breaks down over time and is hard to identify unless specific environmental actors are present but that sometimes happens and we do have some wonderful evidence of cannabis I mentioned the references in China there’s the evidence from the bacterium margiana archaeological complex provided by

viktor sarianidi which some have challenged as well but serie Nadya Russian archaeologists this is widely accepted in Russia claimed to have found what we’re identifying as soma or Hema temples on ancient beverage that was a sacrament of both the the the Vedic Indians and the investin Persians and he found that there in those sites evidence of the preparation of a drink that was made from cannabis ephedra and in some cases cannabis ephedra and poppy and

these plants all grow wild around in this region to this day and this evidence goes back 4,000 years you know and we’re talking temple 3 temple sites and each of these temple sites is about the size of a football field so these are massive agent world places you know that people would have come to from all around the region to partake of the sacrament prepared there and also there’s been recent findings of Scythian golden cups which provided residue of

cannabis and opium so some sort of beverage containing those substances was likely prepared in those cups you know and this is solid archaeological evidence and other Scythian sites we have found the braziers with the heated rocks that were the cannabis was thrown on in cannabis seeds burnt and stuff like that inside of these braziers so we know that this was you know pretty solid archaeological evidence cannabis has been found in a number of viking sites

and you know cannabis fibers been found in ancient mummies mixed in with their hair and things like that so we know that you know that was around from there as well that’s sort of evidence so that sort of thing is much more solid than you know suggestions about agent words from from forgotten languages you know that’s certainly true but regardless of that you know Egyptologists widely regarded as the the name for cannabis and Egyptian and we know in

Chinese references to tomb on whom on wine MA and different things or different fruits of references to cannabis and variations of cannabis I’m still you know Simpson we’re linguistics are used to get today in China for us as we’re talking about the same thing there’s different linguistic representations for basically different languages and stuff like that and some of the words are very related you know like in regards to indo-european

languages you know and this includes fran Chandler’s German Sanskrit other languages well variety of languages are all find their original in the indo-european language the indo-european language was the mother language of that and we know that these words are all related because of the aan and a lot of them like that the the the indo-european word was kana and in French we find Chandra with that same AM and in Hindi we find bong with that

same a had coming from the sense in German we find huh you know with that same a n and all these words are related we know that because they come from the same source the mother language of these other languages so before these even these these different languages developed and split off from their indo-european roots cannabis had already been used by humanity for thousands of years yeah yeah I know it makes a lot of sense you know it you go into the the

Knights Templar and you get into symbolism and secrecy and how it seems to go hand in hand with the historical use of cannabis but let’s start with the basics I mean who who were the Templars well the Templars were Catholic Knights that had gone into the Holy Land during the Crusades period to help pilgrims that were going from Europe and other places into the Holy Land to protect them from the the Islam Islamic sand Raiders and stuff like that

and so they spent you know a couple centuries in the Holy Land and the we know that they have come into contact with a variety of Islamic cultures and groups and stuff like that one of these being a group known as the assassins or hash machine assassin and hashish both come from the same root word hash machine and hash machine means hashish heater and this was a name that mainstream Islam used to refer to a group of heretics with what

they viewed as heretics Islamic heritage with very controversial beliefs then they derogatorily called them hashish eaters and in the mists brought back by Marco Polo and others there’s a description of the leader of the hash machines the old man of the mountain dosing potential recruits with a hashish elixir that’s so powerful that it would knock them out and then they would reawaken in this beautiful pleasure-garden where they be nymphs and

streams of wine and other things they think they’ve gone to paradise and then he dose them again and said ah now that you have seen paradise you’ll serve me so that you can go there and death you know this is the legend right that’s come come to the Europe but there may be some faces of fact in this and we know that the original Old Man of the Mountain Hassani Sabbah was friends with a famous poet who whose name escapes me right now but he wrote about cat hashish

infused wines himself and so that was around then and we know that he was all sorts of Medieval and Renaissance era Islamic poetry written about hashish so it was definitely used by the Mystics there and the idea is that this was passed on to the Templars and there have been claims in a number of books that the Templars had a cannabis infused wine that was also contained aloe vera mixed into a palm wine that they referred to as the elixir of Jerusalem and I was you

know I’m coming across these references and all sorts of books on aloe vera and book on medieval medicine but none of the lists in any source material for it you know material going back to the actual time period so seemed like hearsay no matter how much I checked it around so I started going back into actual time period material on the Templars material from their trials and the the charges against them that sort of thing right but translated out

of Latin and I was able to find in there that in fact the Templars had Saracens Arabs growing cannabis for them in Spain and we know that hashish was used in use in Spain in this time period and the Arabs were not growers of you know hemp for for cloth and rope and that type of thing they use other plants for those things in the Islamic world and the Arabs were growers of resin cannabis THC content cannabis and then we also know

at two of the Templar raids that there was a considerable amount of cannabis seized it’s listed on a list of seized items from the Templar sites in England and another place is you know we’re talking about pounds of cannabis and it seems to be you know raw cannabis not some sort of fiber because everything else is listed very specifically these references just refer to cannabis by the Latin name can abide and don’t really go into any detail about it but it does

just seem to be some sort of raw cannabis and so it seems quite likely that there may be some basis for these claims also in the same time period a pope the Templars ended up being accused of heresy you know mocking the cross and stake but for a long period of time they were in good favor of the Catholic Church and a pope that was friendly with the Templars released a book of medicine while the Templars were in the Holy Land that contained a

recipe for a cannabis infused one and also coinciding with the Templars day and in the Holy Land a a Mason a builder snow builder was was in the Holy Land billard Ahana court and his portfolio of filler dahana court a which is mostly Millis tration of building techniques and statues from the Holy Land that he brought back into Europe on the only page of text in the whole portfolio is for a cannabis infused wine and this is in the same

time period you know so there’s you know it’s a pretty interesting material indicating there may be something to this claim elixir of Jerusalem and this is you know very sacred substance now in regards to the Grail the Grail is is this myth of the sacred Cup you know that brings you wealth but my view is is that it has a lot more to do with the effects of what comes out of them Grail and it’s like an initiatory process and in the the cup that was used

to drink the agent sacrament soma and there’s been some really good strong evidence that both soma inhale my played a really big influence on the development of the Grail which was thought to have come out of the Holy Land the sacred cup used for drinking that substance was was the Gras golden cup you know so it’s very interesting when you when you take a look at some of this evidence and the way it was used and the myths about the Grail and how

they overlap into myths about soma and the Persian hash oisin so you’ve got you’ve got I mean this is fascinating you so you’ve got these Templars that are working for the church and then fall out of favor and when they’re rated they are sitting on a bunch of raw cannabis and it’s theorized I mean why do you think I mean they had it do you do you think it was used for mystical purposes were they summoning you know spirits like what was going on there I think you

know what we see here the hashish II they came out of Persia and the the pre-islamic culture of Persia the Zoroastrians as I mentioned we’re ingesting cannabis in infusions cannabis we know this because it’s written about in Saurashtra in texts and they were throat to cannabis is Banga or in the pallavi name for cannabis mom and so we know what it is there there’s clear references to it we know how it was used was using these cannabis

infusions and we know what would happen the people that drank these infusions would be knocked out for a couple of days and they’d come back saying visions well in the case of the hash machines who first originated in Persia we have the same sort of situation the sacred drink they drank it the guy knocks out and in his case the vision is of an Islamic bent you know he sees the Virgin’s that are promised to the the Islamic heroes when they go to paradise

to death you know and that’s his vision because that’s their cultural context of it’s basically the same sort of account and I think that there may be some evidence that this was passed on to the Templars and that’s how we find these references that are as yet undocumented about this elixir of Jerusalem and one of the reasons why the Templars would have had the Saracens growing it for them in Spain and have that specifically at their sites now one of the more

controversial things I suggested in my books this this brings it to this you know we’re talking about an elixir that can produce a deathlike state you know an accounts of both the Sirach reans and the hash machines it’s you know the stories say that other people that saw that people thought that they were dead as well and in very high doses cannabis can actually throw you into a stain of catalepsy where your body stiffens up like it has rigor mortis and you can

bend the limbs into other positions and they’ll stay there and in fact cannabis was the first anesthetic that we know of the the in China they were performing complicated operations like in the century AD with cannabis infused wines and this goes back now to one of the main crimes of the Templars was mocking the cross you know what’s the cross about it’s about a guy who dies on the cross and then comes back to life and uh interestingly a book written in the late

60s on the Passover plot by dr. Hugh Schofield is about the idea that Jesus was given some sort of a potion on the cross you know he’s described as give him being given a spoiled wine on a sponge man when he drinks it he says it is done and just died suddenly and you know generally when you you are crucified it’s a slow death what happens is your arms are spread out as you muscles relax your your chest cavity closes it on your lungs and you

suffocate to death right but that’s not what happens in the story and then it says in the story afterwards a few days later his secret servant and that’s the name they use in the Bible is Nicodemus secret service Nicodemus and another guy show up at the tomb of Jesus Jesus with aloes and bears and go in there to prepare the body but owls and bears were never a part of any sort of Jewish burial program you know this is all kind of

peculiar right and then Jesus rises from the dead and so what you have here what they came across I believe in the the Middle East is that cannabis and other substances can produce a deathlike substance we know that the the Arabs were aware of this Avicenna and others wrote about using certain substances cannabis Mandrake other things opium to knock people out to perform medical operations and that sort of thing on them so they were certainly aware of it

and it was definitely news to Europeans this type of stuff things really fallen away from a lot of medical practices and science and Europe this time most lot of people have called this period the Dark Ages in Europe because of the lack of awareness of science and that sort of thing and interestingly the first stories about cannabis that come into Europe Marco Polo’s account with the hashish eens and the them thinking they’ve died and gone to Paradise and

the Decameron another early novel one of the first things ever written first novels ever written in Europe Decameron has a story about an abbot who tricks a non-believer and a bad what he considered a bad man into taking cannabis and that guy as well everybody thinks he’s dead he goes into a tomb and then eventually wakes you know so so these are the earliest references to cannabis in Europe at the time I’ll indicate the same sort of use of cannabis to produce

this death like stupor so what you’re theorizing is that perhaps Jesus was given this wine that contained this highly potent form of cannabis and like the others and other things and it could have put him into this this reduced activity state put his body into I don’t know what was the term that he used makes your body very stiff like well you know in the 19th century Islamic factors would amaze Europeans by being buried in the ground for like a week and they dig

him up and they they come back to life and a Scottish physician dr. James Braid of Edinburgh wrote a book trance and human hibernation in the 19th century and said that this was likely brought about by a combination of potent cannabis extracts and yogic practices so you know and then you know I can’t take credit for the idea that that that’s what Jesus did as I mentioned there’s a book the Passover plot and also a film was made about this book as well

nature motion picture and it’s huge Scofield’s idea he didn’t mention cannabis specifically but he said some sort of you know a potion that would produce that sort of state wow that’s fascinating you know there was a there was a chapter in your book Lieber 420 that you called the Guyot a lot Keene died he said okay this is the 10th century book Arabic book of magic mm-hmm and it was translated into Latin in the 13th century by King Alfonso of Spain

and titled the picot tricks it became one of the founding documents of the Western magical tradition and in the picot tricks there’s a recipe for invoking the guardian of the moon that involves cannabis and other residents mix mistake blood being burnt in the middle of a spring in a cave and then you would see that once you started burning all this stuff up it was like a pound of hashish you know cannabis resin is what specifically referred to makes a lot of

cannabis that’s a lot of candidates and then he would see the deity of the Moon the guardian of the moon in this pillar of smoke you know so I mean were these people using this compound as a type of offering to invoke these beings well you know cannabis has a long history of magic I think that that’s one way of looking at it another way of looking at it might be that you take a psychoactive substance in a large amount and you put

it into a fire and you start staring into the smoke you’re gonna start seeing things in the smoke just naturally you’re gonna start inhaling the smoke as well all right the smoke as well it’s gonna affect your it’s going to affect your consciousness and and so there’s the combination of the of the effect of the substance which causes visual distortions and also new visual interpretation of what’s being seen and the smoke and uh reflections of the

water and the light and all of that combining to create an illusion in the smoke you don’t know whether that’s a product of the subconscious or unconscious or drugs or an actual the substance that opens you up enough that you’re able to see something that you wouldn’t normally see that is there you know all these these are all possible answers to that equation but you know I kind of think that you know you have to take into account the effects of these

substances themselves cause long losers when you’re when you’re dealing with this type of thing in magic so I mean it seems like an important element in the ritual would be you know the choice of location setting and you know it’s in you mentioned the pika tricks and you talked about how it would be placed near water and that seems to help the efficacy of the ritual itself like why place it near waters is it pareidolia or what’s going on being

seeing faces in rocks and things like that you know or demons in smoke too right you know yeah I think that the light of the fire would play off of off of the water and reflect back into the smoke all that type of stuff would be create a visual effect certainly okay and then you know you move into the connection with the pika tricks and John Dee I’d really like to know more about you know who John Dee was his importance to the Queen and that relationship can

you bring that up please yeah yeah it’s not clear that dr. John Dee had the Pinkett tricks you know we don’t know exactly when a witch witch grimoires Dee have but we do know that grimoires in England in the 16th century when John Dee was it was performing his magic did in fact refer to cannabis and its use for scrying with magic mirrors which John dr. John Dee was very into dr. John Dee was a scientist and a magician who was in the employ of a queen of Queen

Elizabeth for some time and deed along with his assistant Edward Kelly were very into mirrors frying and this is to be done with crystal balls or with black opaque mirrors and he’s staring these mirrors until you started to see a vision and in the CEFR hace el libres Aleman us a grimoire from the 16th century an english grimoire thought to go back to hebrew influences you know likely even you know things from the Holy Land but it’s unclear we don’t have

the earlier documentation of that as well as the book of magic and invocation which has been recently republished as the book of Oberon both of these documents contain recipes for cannabis in the in the case of the sepharose ele Brucella Montes it’s mixed with wormwood which contains thujone it goes to the same receptor site as ta see to be made into anointment and then you use this ointment and then you’re staring to a mirror and you’d see demons

and ghosts and things like that that you can communicate with and in the case of the book of magic or the book of Omar on is is now knowing they refer to Devils trumpet unknown plant but it could well be a nightshade very potent hallucinogenic substance you know and again used in the exact same way and this is an Indy zone recordings of his visionary scrying sessions which he referred to as the actions there’s one account where they’re they’re talking

about taking a potion and they feel very drowsy from it you know but then they begin to see visions and in another kind of curiously hilarious account we have Edward Kelly explaining to somebody that he’s claiming to talk to in a mirror as Dee writes jot dr. John Dee writes all this down how that he doesn’t have any drugs and he shows him an empty empty apothecary box and says seeing my apothecary box is empty and the spirit from the mirror responds back well how

about any ointment do you have any ointment sand this is what is is is referred to in sepharose II Al and the book of magic and you know you don’t have any ointment either the the deity is like well how do you expect to talk to me you know basically when you come empty-handed you know what could be happening here is that Edward Kelly was just you know trying dr. John Dee to provide some more drugs so he could some visions by claim

you know because Kelly was known to be a bit of a Connors and it’s also important to remember that around the same time opium was very popular newly discovered you know like medicine in these areas right and quite addictive you know which would make you really want some more of your Edward Kelly they’ve been using that for scrying purposes oh wow it’s I mean it’s really fascinating and it’s certainly the queen I mean if this guy’s

employed by the Queen I mean there should be some relevance to the that he’s discovering and he’s using these this compound to you know scry and communicate with these entities or beings and and gain information I mean do you think that that was the primary usage to gain access into these mystical States so that you could predict the future or you know what was the intention yeah you know like a lot of magic for this that’s crying magic and

that sort of thing which is find treasure to find information about other people to communicate with dead relatives and that sort of thing there’s a variety of different agendas you know John Dee is still very popular in the magical world today the Enochian tablets which are the product of John Dee’s scrying sessions with Anna Kelly a whole language that is this language came out of these these crying mirrors and people are still practicing magic and you know

claiming its efficacy this is the system of magic developed by dr. John Dee and he was also a great mathematician and other people said he was you know master of codes and things like that some of said he worked as a spy for Queen Elizabeth as well you know so he was a pretty interesting cat for sure um you know and speaking for you personally I mean have you ever you know used cannabis in a ritualistic setting to you know communicate with spirits well I use

cannabis all the time so it’s absolutely different for me than it is for somebody you know like those are Astra guy who never used and all of a sudden does a potent wine that infusion you know which would be knock somebody like myself out even that’s their first experience with it and I think a lot of the magical situations and these people weren’t regular users of cannabis it was like a rare spice and commodity that they gotten hold of and was used very

specifically for magical purposes and I think this is true of a lot of 19th century of call it use as well right but I do find that cannabis opens me up to my subconscious or unconscious mind and brings in another level of intuition that I wouldn’t get without it and you know that that’s the trade-off between using it once in a while specifically for magical purposes as opposed to using it regularly like I myself do but I would say that you know

I don’t think I could have written my books and put together a lot of this this information without the sort of associations that cannabis can create in my mind and access to deeper recesses of my own consciousness which is part of the collective consciousness as well and and that in that way it’s a very very potent Anthea jinn for me yeah I mean it’s certainly a drug that should be given a huge amount of respect and regard for when you’re imbibe being and

using it yeah you know I want I want to talk you mentioned Shakespeare and yeah there’s I guess there’s some connection between Shakespeare and a drug lab and what’s going on there – specifically regards to that but in in regards to Shakespeare he does mention Hampton a couple of his plays and Midsummer Night’s Dream he says Punk says of some guys what happened homespuns are these and puck himself is also referred to as Robin Goodfellow

in Shakespeare’s Midsummer Night’s Dream and Robin Goodfellow was a very popular English folklore character and you know had goat legs and horns and things like that but he was he’s often associated with Hamptons catchphrase was hemp and Hampton and he was a prankster who would sometimes help out the the the women by helping them break their hamp which means like getting the fiber separated from the stock which they would usually

do by like whacking a big pile of stalks onto a board until they started to break apart and the fibers break apart Robin Goodfellow would do it sometimes by having sex with a woman over top of a pile of him but the raucous of the sex would break all the fibers apart so Shakespeare specifically incorporated Robin Goodfellow as puck into a Midsummer Night’s Dream and he also incorporated Oberon the prince of the fairies and our king of the fairies

and Oberon is described in age of literature is sometimes riding on in the hip and stock you know so some references there but there was a couple of South African professors who had a theory that Shakespeare was a can’t secret cannabis user and they had based this on some of his sonnets and references to a what was the name of the not a scarlet lung but yeah I fact this case right now but it was kind of a veiled reference to like a hidden woman

but he said this was actually more like a muse and the Greek Spencer a source of inspiration and based on their theory they were able to get the Shakespeare Trust in England to give them pipe fragments found from the property where Shakespeare lived and they had these pipe fragments analyzed and they showed positive results for Annabeth hung up their theory somewhat now these were just pipe pieces from the time period found on Shakespeare’s property it’s not

like they were this was actually Shakespeare spike but it could well be they use the ceramic pipes backbone and people just some toss him out and is from the same time period I’m right in his location you know so somebody would apparently seem to have been using cannabis you know it’s very controversial this stuff but these two professors are dr. a professor van der Meer and professor Francis Thackeray have been stuck by this theory for

twenty years and they’ve written numbers of articles about it and it’s not to be lightly poo-pooed there’s a lot to it there’s a lot to of the analysis and there’s a lot to the documentation they present about that so I mean it seems like there’s an overwhelming amount of evidence that you’ve collected about the usage of cannabis throughout human history and civilization so you know why is why are we dealing with it being illegal I mean what happened there I

mean it I think I guess it was William Randolph Hearst was was that the person that well Jack Herer the who kind of you know is a grandfather of the modern him you know industrial hemp in its applications really brought that to the forefront has suggested that Randolph Hearst who had a newspaper chain can send some Forest Holdings and they’re you know at was making newspapers out of Pulp paper wanted to suppress the hemp industry you know it’s a allege that one

if your camp can produce as much paper as four acres of trees over the same 20-year period it’s a much better source for pulp for paper and that he suppressed this industry with yellow journalism propaganda and using racism against cannabis and this was also what Herer alleged of the DuPont’s who recently patented a variety of petroleum-based products all of which could be also made from hemp as well because it’s a very high source of

cellulose you can make plastic and rubber and other things like that that you made from petroleum-based products out of hemp including forms that are planned just a better plant you know but at the time it was hard for it to compete because there’s a vast resources of all this oil and stuff like that different situation today and we’ve seen the results of what the harvesting of that of oil has done to our planet as we would steadily move towards a hotter

planet and climate change caused by man-made fossil fuel damage that’s really so that’s one idea you know it’s a lot of it’s just racism I think you know a big part of it is like Christians versus the devil’s weed there’s always been an inherent fear of these types of things we saw it in the medieval times with witches we were often accused of using a variety of psychoactive substances and their own rituals and rites you know and this was a big basis

of of what was deemed witchcraft and demonic behavior and stuff like that and it’s like it’s like this inherent fear of it because you know they’re they’re like it they’re the whole religion is based on faith but what substances like cannabis and other entheogenic substances like ayahuasca peyote or even these night shades and things like that they give you a direct experience you’re not being told about something you experience something you know and that’s

a real real challenge so I think there was a lot of inherent prejudice at play already you know we know that Henry Anslinger who kind of is largely responsible for being in prohibition in the United States of America used racism as a tool to bring about prohibition of cannabis which was brought in by the marijuana Tax Act in 1937 and you know stoked fears about white women dancing with black men and black men holding the stare of white people under the

influence of cannabis and propaganda propaganda same thing in Canada we have Emily Murphy who was which was a name name used by Canada’s first female judge or Jane II cannot go which was a name used by Canada’s first female judge Emily Murphy who similarly stoked fears of racism talking about dark-browed races seducing the bright route races ie white people with cannabis and other drugs so racism was largely used in both countries to

promote prohibit it yeah I mean it seems like you know with the advent of like reefer madness and stuff like that then there there was this push for a fear campaign of this this drug that could lead to you know you questioning things whereas with you know alcohol or cigarettes or whatever you can buy that on every street corner in it numbs your senses it doesn’t get you into this altered heightened state so you know why is why would you say there is this sort

of green revolution that’s happening right now I wouldn’t even call it a Renaissance that the prohibition of cannabis has inadvertently created cannabis mate cannabis a symbol of freedom the apart leaf is like the piece on a recognizable symbol of freedom now and when you can’t go hose what happens is the pressure builds up you know and I think it with cannabis they try to kink that hose and now all this forgotten history has been just starting to pour

out all the lost knowledge about camp and its industrial applications just flooding back out into the world all this lost knowledge you know that we we think we’re just discovering all this medical knowledge about cannabis now but you take a look at these agent acts and medieval tax you know they were treating epilepsy with cannabis in ancient Assyria Paracelsus the alchemists had a cannabis infused wine that was used for the treatment of epilepsy there’s nothing

new here we’re just rediscovering it you know and so inadvertently they’ve they’ve made it this huge symbol that is a potent force of political change there’s a whole movement a revolution happening around this plant and in a very big way it’s like the natural movement and the green movement this is like Earth this is like the mind of Gaia speaking to humanity through cannabis and other entheogenic substances man and it’s offering us away you know and the

choice is we can go the green way or we can you know we can exploit the tar sands here in Canada or we can you know go with Trump and talk about clean coal beautiful clean coal and the benefits of big oil and all that type of stuff and we’ll cook this planet up you know right now so this generation right now we’re being offered a pivotal choice for the future of humanity on this planet and this herb is a big part of that pivotal

choice mmm I love that I really truly love that I and I agree I think there is this surge of awareness that’s that’s moving in this direction and and hopefully our generation can wake up to that it does wake up to that you know it it seems like I just heard a story about this woman this old woman in Dallas and the legislation is so backwards I guess in Texas was that she she was arrested for a CBD infused oil that she had for like back pain or something like that

yeah parents arrested for treating their children’s epilepsy with cannabis and we know that cannabis is particularly effective for epilepsy and epilepsy is a good point when we’re talking about agent world stuff as well because epilepsy was thought to be demonic possession up until the medieval time period and we know Syrian references to cannabis use refer to a cannabis preparation being used to treat hand of ghost which is thought to be a reference

to epilepsy they thought it was temporary demonic possession possession by a ghost and as well I mentioned The Alchemist Paracelsus you know who had a quintessence a cannabis infused wine that was used for epilepsy and that’s a miracle to these people there their children’s are having hundreds of seizures a year they’re gonna die from the damage their bodies are getting from these seizures and then they cannabis and they stop the seizures

sometimes almost completely and this is like scientifically proven it’s not like some bold claim you know something so you know this is it’s known that this is happening and parents find this relief for their children and when they’re being threatened with jail and in some cases being put in jail and some being cases being separated from the children and you know if that’s not a crime against humanity I don’t know what is and but people are waking up to this now

I mean we’re realizing that cannabis is going to be better for you than drinking alcohol well cannabis is the tree of life man this is the apocalypse do you really think that we are in the apocalypse right now yeah let’s you know like I don’t know that it’s exactly you know I don’t think it’s necessarily the end of the world sure but yeah I think it’s you know I think it’s been brought about by people believing in it so much I’m not necessarily saying as a prophecy

we got all these evangelicals you know making political decisions based on some sort of apocalyptic timeline and doing things in the Mideast foreign policy that’s all related to the book of Revelation you know like trying to put an embassy in Jerusalem the things like that yeah I think it is the apocalypse and that that cannabis is the Tree of Life well tell me more about this apocalypse idea I mean like how you know it does seem like there is some predictive

programming or something that’s happening within you know mainstream culture where we’re being shown images of the apocalypse and then that is you know fed to us over and over and over so you know there is something that it that is connecting there for for you know culture so you know how you know how would we know and you know at what point do you say okay this is this is where the apocalypse is occurring how do we know what it looks like yeah why really

think you know that that’s really gonna fall yeah there’s not like a complete answer for everybody for that because everybody’s looking at it from different perspectives you know it’s not like I’m a Christian you know I don’t believe in Jesus virgin birth as I mentioned I don’t believe in the crucifixion I think that in my apocalypse you know the resurrection of Jesus is the rediscovery of the Gnostic literature the things like the NAG Hammadi texts which have

all these new accounts of Jesus that depicted Jesus very different from the Jesus of the New Testament which was put together by Roman authorities basically you know the Council of Nicaea and for a century you know and they suppress all sorts of documents and decided which documents would make up a new decimal come a new testament is basically like Caesar’s Bible it was a means of controlling the Roman populace and so let’s just define Gnosticism for the

people that are listening that might not know what that is if you cannot if you can do that you know it’s gonna let’s see Gnosticism is a blanket named gnostic means knowledge okay Gnosticism is a blanket name for a variety of religious sects mostly Christian but some Jewish that were around for the first few centuries ad up until about the fourth century when they’re far and completely suppressed as the Roman Catholic Church took over and we what we originally knew

about these Gnostic groups was based on what the Church Fathers Augustine and other Hippolyta’s and other figures wrote about them sure and in the age of text you know and they gave you know excerpts of some of their texts and why they were suppressing them a lot of it had to do with tantric like sex practices and alternative beliefs you know like one of but there’s all these different sects like I said it’s a blanket name but they had bearing

beliefs so I’m making some generalizations here but it’s not true of every gnostic sect you know and one of the more general beliefs was that Yahweh the God of the Bible Jehovah if you want to use that name was actually a demon was like a parasite living off of humanity he tricked them into worship so the whole thing’s response Nick the archons yeah and that the serpent who’s identified with Jesus was actually the good guy Jesus was you know on side of

Gnosticism right and it’s really hard to say whether that’s you know if there was a historical Jesus was he a Gnostic or was he more you know in line with the Jewish thing that’s really hard to say that all this materials goes back to around the same time there’s not that much difference in in the oldest Gnostic texts and the oldest Christian Jackson’s in decades maybe and that light had descended into matter and through a series of incarnations mineral vegetable

animal and then man it started to progress back out of matter and man was the transition point of light back to the kingdom of light from whence it originated and from which Yahweh the the demonic force had also split off from much earlier than this was a part of – so so let me let me pause you there I’m sorry – bumpy there but yeah so so are you saying that you know based on Gnosticism and you know various sects of it that there is this understanding that

the the mainstream understanding of Christianity is that Yahweh or the name for that is this energy that’s being stolen from humanity that humanity was tricked and somewhere like the nog commodity tax we’re talking about you know this this serpent that was actually giving knowledge to Eve and freeing Adam and Eve from the the what control of the Gnostic version of the Adam and Eve story they point out how that you know when God told that they’d from the tree

of knowledge in the tree of life the trees that he they would die well they didn’t die their eyes became opened right and so they they said that that God was a quote malicious Gregor who was trying to trick mankind prevent them from attaining knowledge like they attained from the the substance from the tree of knowledge of good and evil right and as well other things as well like a big point of contention between the gnostic sects and the roman catholic sex

was things like jesus’s crucifixion the Gnostics referred to the crucifixion and resurrection as the faith of fools hmm no one said that mankind was being tricked by tales of a dead man you know and well it is call crucifixion you know as a new fiction that goes out the window and that Jesus was more like individual who through purifications kind of yoga almost practices and meditation and that sort of thing had got down to that essence that animates

us all but we could all become Christ by following that same path of knowledge you know and we know that the Gnostics were using a variety of psychoactive substances because we have agent references to things like infused wines and in Gnostic rituals and ritual burnings of in senses which contained a wonder refers to and things like that so it seems pretty clear that they were were following the entheogenic path yeah it’s really amazing to me I mean that I

think about this probably more than I should about Gnosticism and and I I really do question it I wonder about this sometimes and you know could it be that there is you know this floating realm of archons that are like pulling and and pushing on negative states fear-based states and then feeding off of them somehow I mean it seems like a really interesting sort of line of thinking or thought to me yeah well I think you know we can get into

collective head spaces like you take a look at the collective beliefs of the evangelical movement and them as a group could almost you could almost consider their influence and group as the influence of one source because it’s also on the same page you know and in the way it affects the wider world you know so in Gnosticism the final savior of humanity is actually referred to as anthropos and that’s like from the same root we get anthropology from it

basically means the spirit humanity the idea is that there’s Carl Jung was very the father of modern psychology came up with the idea of collective unconscious he was very into narcissism was very influenced by the ideas of it you know and I’d suggest that his concept of the collective unconscious was likely influenced by Gnosticism when the concept of anthropos because he knew about all this stuff he actually wrote a text under the name

Vasily IDEs which was the agent gnostic teacher claiming some connection with bacilli ods the gnostic teacher but i think there’s like this collective aspect to humanity you know it’s like in the kabbalah as well they were free to adam kadmon at the center of the Tree of Life and in the capitalistic world and Shiva as well is kind of like the collective aspect of consciousness of humanity and that that’s you know a big thing that’s happening right now is that

collective aspect of humanity that we all are a part of in feed in and out of is starting to recognize itself and coming into some sort of form of self-reflection in the same way that humans did as individuals thousands of years ago and that that kind of element this collective aspect that’s I think as close as we can come to God you know Jung said that the collective unconscious was the same force as instinct and other animals you know when

another animals like say a sea elephant the day it’s born it can go fishing or a deer can stand up and walk around you know and that shows that some sort of knowledge is passed down genetically we have this as well but it’s deeply buried under the evolutionary expansion of the brain that happened with humanity our larger brains the larger area for higher thinking and memory and the frontal lobes that type of stuff but we still

have this aspect of instinctual consciousness and this instinctual consciousness is an aspect of awareness that has passed down genetically and you know shows us what to fear and what to you know sex instinct that sort of thing and Jung said because this was continually passed down certain imagery and archetypes imprinted on it recognises that imagery and archetype because it’s seen over and over again through various incarnations and when

you talk about something like the book of Revelation and apocalypse and end of world type of imagery that’s been a largely engrained into human consciousness and it’s like we have this collective Deathwish because of these death religions in the death scenario whether it be jihad or Armageddon or Kali Yuga it’s been ingrained into the human consciousness and we’re projecting that back out what we really need to get a hold of is get control of this ship

and give it a new myth in a new direction yeah I mean wouldn’t that be amazing and you know just to posit this idea you know if if there is this resurgence of psychedelics and these compounds happening and there are more people finding out about them and shows like this talking about them and more people taking them then you know could it be said that there is some sort of you know process happening with the collective unconscious and the a closer

reach to enlightenment perhaps I think so I think that’s you know that’s that’s one of the potential futures that we’re we’re in right now you know it could go a lot of different ways and it takes people waking up to take it in that direction and these substances wake us up you know I think that you know you take a look at particularly with the environmental situation cultures that have continued the traditional use of of these sorts of substances whether it be

ayahuasca in South America or foga in Africa the sacred mushroom take a cacti Mexico they are more in tune with their natural environment than Western man Western man has lost its way you know and in regards to the environment and you take sacred mushroom you take a walk in the forest and it’ll turn that forest from a commodity into a living breathing entity you know and that’s the power of these substances these are the voices of

gaia messengers of gaia mother earth man and they’re here right now to lead us back to the garden so I mean so I mean with with this age of information that we’re in and technology and the way social media is impacting culture and editing culture what we think how we think I mean how do you think that interfaces with this other side because it seems like two different opposing things like technology Gaia and can they be connected technology you know and I

don’t think technology is the problem it’s the you know it’s it’s doing things stupidly and wrongly you know just for good reason corporations that type it’s up I think if we’re gonna you know find ways out of the challenge is equippable for ourselves a large part of that will be through technology you know and green technology technology doesn’t have to it but you know it’s getting back in tune with with the earth and caring about the

earth that’s really the issue I mean do you think do you think it could be too late do you think we were we could be at a point where you know ecologically we’re facing a nightmare that you know this is not reversible this is something that’s really been troubling and you know causes me to have depression I don’t think there’s a problem on earth right now that we don’t have potential solutions to but the potato’s solutions just seems to be lost

to me you know when I take a look at the government’s and the way that the the corporations and big of oil have control and influence over those governments you know troop is like Trump is like cutting environmental protection left and right you know and here in Canada we have a prime minister who’s preaching green a greener world but then is expanding the tar sands one of the most completely polluting sources of a fossil based fuel

industry in the world the development of the tar sands it will certainly increase global warming and stuff like that you know and so the hopes of implementing solutions just seems impossible when you have you know the White House scrubbing every reference to climate change and global warming from their from their their database I mean it’s it’s intriguing to me that you know like technology can be both you know our greatest ally and our worst enemy in

many ways but you know it’s also interesting that we you know we’re at such a pinnacle point and you know we can we can either move with this and understand it or we can be oppressed by it and either we’re at this point ecologically where it may or may not be too late I mean the the glacial ice caps are melting and we until that point of where it’s directly impacting us where we start to care I mean maybe that is just too late you know at that point but

yeah you know I think I think we still have some time you know left I think we stopped some time left you know and you know myself I tried to change the world and swing things the way I wanted to go I focus on my own personal development that should the worst happen and I cease to exist that I’m ready for that transition and I also you know with like one of the background agendas with the retreat that we’ve been building so my

Institute is preparing the self-sufficient piece of land and community that can be an ark for the sacraments and survive as best we can into these darker days you know so I take a multi-pronged approach and try to approach the coming years in a variety of different ways and from a variety of different levels that sounds really good Christmas I think we’ve discussed pretty much you know everything that we could discuss right now and this in this hour we’re a

little bit over the hour is is there anything that I could have asked you that I thought I should have asked you around there there’s you know a million things to talk about when you know the mood were talking about cannabis and you know I think a big thing a lot that a lot of people find interesting is this whole element of Christian use of it and the idea that Jesus you know like in the oldest of the synoptic Gospels mark Jesus sends out the Twelve Apostles with

oil to cast out demons and heal the sick never does he baptized in but anybody recommends using this will for casting out demons and healing the sick and many of the so-called miracles are of complaints that cannabis is involved with you know menstruating complaints vision complaints stiff joints and things like that and one of the big points of contention between what became the Catholic Church and the gnostic sects was water baptism versus

anointing with oil the Gnostics said there’s only water in the baptism but there was fire in the anointing oil and through MIT we are initiated to unfading bliss and they refer to a containing a plant of kindness that could straighten the crooked limbs and heal the sick and um that’s some powerful stuff you know I think that you know that is one of the things that you know the more that those ideas go mainstream it’s something that

actually might appeal to to evangelical Christians you know who have relatives who suffer from cancer who have relatives who suffer from epilepsy and who are looking for real cures for that you know as they start to find out about cannabis they might open up to the the medical uses and then the idea that their own Savior may have healed this way well that’s a revelation brother that’s a revelation I mean yeah I agree I think plants are going to dictate you

know how our civilization our species learns to connect and adapt with you know the planet that we we call home Chris this has been a fascinating conversation my friend where can people find your work we can working people go and buy your book follow me on Facebook boys posted interesting stuff there I have a blog at cannabis culture calm I’ve got numbers of documentaries on YouTube if you search my name in cannabis and you can find my books on

Amazon and other websites they’re all over the place guys that’s gonna do it for us here at HSN gonna be back for you guys next week with another live broadcast if you’re not subscribed to us on YouTube get over there search for the human experience podcast make sure you click Subscribe click the bell so you get notified when we go live if you’re using if you’re listening to this in the podcast version please make sure you get to iTunes and

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