The Human Experience · Episode
Episode 99 – Zach Leary on the everyday Grind, Futurism, Consciousness, Mysticism & so much more
A conversation with Zach Leary
Zach Leary is a writer and podcast host who enjoys raising all manner of issues in the cultural philosophy sphere. Alongside his interest in psychedelics, he is also a futurist, a technology consultant and a…
The full conversation continues here.
Episode field notes
Show notes
Zach Leary is a writer and podcast host who enjoys raising all manner of issues in the cultural philosophy sphere. Alongside his interest in psychedelics, he is also a futurist, a technology consultant and a socio-cultural theorist. He is the adoptive son of well-known psychedelic drug advocate Timothy Leary.
Zach is the host of both the “It’s All Happening with Zach Leary” podcast and “The MAPS Podcast.” They have helped to cement him as one of the most thought provoking podcasters in the cultural philosophy genre of podcasting. He’s also a blogger/writer, a futurist, spiritualist, a technology consultant and socio-cultural theorist.
In all of Zach’s work he blends his roles as a spiritual aspirant and a futurist into a unique identity all his own. His spiritual background has it’s roots in being a practitioner of bhakti yoga as taught through many of the Vedantic systems of Northern India, in particular, Neem Karoli Baba as taught by Ram Dass. Through the practice of bhakti yoga, he has found keys that unlock doorways that allow the soul to experience it’s true nature of being eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss. In addition to bhakti yoga, Zach is influenced by many different methods and traditions of consciousness exploration ranging from trans-humanism to Buddhism and clinical psychology. Zach is also a frequent pundit on the political systems that are fueling today’s economic and cultural structures. At the core of all of Zach’s work is the belief that we have been fused together by the collective practice of using technology to expand our species imagination with spirituality and mysticism to define the very nature of who we are.
Zach has appeared in a number of films, including some about Timothy Leary and Ram Dass.The Reality of Truth(2016) explores the relationship between psychedelics and religion.Dying to Know: Ram Dass & Timothy Leary(2014) is a celebration of the friendship between two complex characters that helped shape a generation.Tim Leary: The Art of Dying(2008) follows the last days of Timothy Leary and how he chooses to experience his “custom death.”Timothy Leary’s Dead(1996), a chronicle of Timothy’s last year before dying of cancer.
Himself
Find Zach here: www.zachleary.com
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Ideas worth returning to
Quotes
Five substantial excerpts from the published transcript, lightly edited for clarity without changing their meaning.
“I am sympathetic to transhumanism, but I do not know whether consciousness can ever be reduced to firmware. I regard consciousness as a phenomenon that exists beyond the individual body, while a human being’s interaction with it is a form of perception. If that is true, consciousness would continue even when one biological receiver no longer does.”
From the conversation“When technological change creates panic, it helps to step back and look at the human condition as a whole. It seems presumptuous to assume that our present form is the final stop in human evolution. We may be something like humanity 1.0, with future forms of human life still impossible for us to picture clearly.”
From the conversation“Ram Dass said that meeting Neem Karoli Baba gave him a new map of consciousness. The Vedantic and Hindu frameworks for understanding consciousness, energy, and spirituality provide a map that works for me. A daily practice makes that map experiential rather than merely intellectual.”
From the conversation“As a child, I knew Timothy Leary was famous, wrote books, and traveled on college lecture tours, but I could not understand the depth or context of his work. A child sees the public events without yet having the framework to interpret their cultural meaning. It took a long time for me to understand what he had actually done.”
From the conversation“I cannot claim access to the hidden workings of Timothy Leary’s mind; I can only speak from my own experience as an observer and family member. That distinction matters. A famous relative’s public story creates pressure to provide definitive answers, but proximity does not make someone the owner of another person’s inner life.”
From the conversation
About the guest
Zach Leary
Zach Leary is a writer and podcast host who enjoys raising all manner of issues in the cultural philosophy sphere. Alongside his interest in psychedelics, he is also a futurist, a technology consultant and a socio-cultural theorist. He is the adoptive son of well-known psychedelic drug advocate Timothy Leary.
Beyond the conversation
Selected work
Official sites, books, research, and institutional pages verified for this guest.
The complete conversation
Transcript
Archival transcript · Published on the canonical episode page
This archival source does not include reliable passage timestamps or consistent speaker attribution. The wording and any labels below are preserved from the original transcript page; no speakers or timing have been inferred.
welcome to the human experience podcast the only podcast designed to fuse your left and right brain hemispheres and feed it the most entertaining and mentally engaging topics on the planet as we approach our ascent please make sure your frontal temporal and occipital loads are in their full upright position as you take your seat of consciousness relax your senses and allow us to take you on a journey we are the intimate strangers thank you for listening the
fabric of the scene and really changed after that and it got a lot different a lot crazier a lot more kind of you know rock and roll and I encourage people you know if they wake up and they land in that cubicle every day and they feel like oh my god this sucks what am I doing here get out it’ll work itself out you know get out what’s up guys you are listening to the human experience our episode today’s with mr. Zack Leary Zack is into
some really interesting topics concerning futurism consciousness spirituality mysticism psychedelics we get into all those things who talk about his relationship with his dad this is a great episode and it blew by and whenever that happens it’s usually a good episode so hopefully you guys enjoyed this one thank you so much for listening the human experience is in session my guest for today’s mr. Zack Leary zack my good sir welcome to hxp
thank you so much for having me pleasure to be here I’m familiar with your background but many of our listeners might not be if you could just give us a short biography of you know who you are what you do please even sometimes when that questions asked you know and being sort of the pathologically anti-authoritarian spiritualist that I am I’ve just a soul trying to find some grace you know I don’t have to know what it is I do you
know I’m just trying to find get through in another moment trying to find grace and wisdom as I can you know I spent about 15 years working in pretty high levels within the marketing and advertising industry I’m helping brands and various bands as well and entities can have developed their their digital presence and their technology strategy and you know and I did I had a great time doing that but an okay time doing that and I reached somewhat senior
levels and I kind of got to this point to where I just was you know I hit my head on the wall and kind of came up with just your perfect existential spiritual crisis and realized uh what am i doing you know how can I spend my all of my waking hours going to offices and being kind of lost in office culture and working on so-called passions and and goals that are really other people’s you know and that’s not to say not that people who do that are lost I mean there
are many great people do great things like that just was not for me yeah it turned out yeah so I kind of did an about-face but then I kind of just turned all of my interest and focus into really doing the things that I that I’m most passionate about and that’s focusing on a very human application of spiritual principles as well as talking about the sort of the evolution of mankind as defined through technology and where technology is driving us both on a
psycho-spiritual level and as well as a sociological level because it is really I think within the last hundred years you know the advent of Technology I mean from the Industrial Revolution on I just don’t mean like Facebook and phones but technology is really it’s really shaping our culture into either the destruction or the savior so I’m just going interested in all of those things and so yeah I thought cast and I write and talk
and teach and things like that yeah that is very interesting in it I liked what you said about the 9 to 5 grind and I think a lot of us get caught up in that sort of cubicle matrix world and it’s hard to break out when you’re in the midst of that world though I mean it is and and I want to say – so sorry to interrupt but I do want to say – that it’s really important like you know sometimes if I go on a preamble like this it does sound like high and mighty
and I don’t mean it to be that way people who do have to go to a cubicle today because they have to pay the rent and feed their family that’s great you know there’s nothing wrong with that in and of itself you know I just think it’s about listening to your own heart and being true you know to them self you know what’s working for you many people are happy being creative directors at advertising agencies and do great work if that’s your Dharma that’s
yours it just wasn’t mine right and I encourage people you know if they wake up and they land in that cubicle every day and they feel like oh my god this sucks what am I doing here get out it’ll work itself out you know get out yeah that’s the biggest step I think you can take for your own personal evolution so when you mentioned spirituality and there’s a mixture of technology are you a transhumanist do you believe in this futuristic sort of
dumping consciousness into I don’t know a body of something like that anything like that yeah I do consider myself to be a transhumanist in the sense that I’ll caveat that by saying I don’t know if consciousness can be distilled to a version that can be written into some firmware you know I don’t know if that’s ever going to be possible because I believe that consciousness in and of itself is a disembodied phenomenon that exists outside of ourselves and the
human beings interaction with consciousness is just our perception consciousness will continue to exist without us so I don’t know if that’s possible but yes I do believe in the mutation of mankind into fusing with technology do you think this is something that we’ll see within our lifetime well we’re starting to see it I mean we are we’re starting to see it on smaller levels you know there are nanotech improvements that are starting
to happen it’s very very possible that within our lifetimes we’ll be able to see through nanotechnology fused with corrective surgery like the repairing of quadriplegics you know things like that you know this is certainly an ethical thing and for better or for worse but you know we can now map the human genome and look at certain traits to see where perhaps one might want to improve and how to you know whether it’s cognitively
improve or health-wise you know so we’re starting to see those things you know I know that’s it freaks a lot of people out special people who are you know into sort of the green organic back to the earth movement but I don’t think it should freak us out so yeah I mean what we’re starting to see it and I think within the next 50 years we’re really going to see some things that 20 years ago would have been science fiction yeah I mean it’s really amazing the progress
that we’re making in it I think you touched on this in your work but I’m not sure if humanity is ready for the cultural advancements that technology’s making it’s happening so fast now it’s almost overwhelming how quickly technology is advancing in parallel to our own understanding of it I mean do you agree I absolutely agree I mean there’s no question how could I not I just think any time if somebody panics and kind of gets freaked out of that
relationship of the most important thing to do is to step back and realize the human condition as we know it now you look around at our species like I think it’s presumptuous to say that this is the final stop in the human evolutionary matrix I don’t believe that I think this is this is human being 1.0 you know I mean III just don’t believe that this is the end of the human evolutionary ladder I think there could be a human being 2.0
and what does that human being 2.0 look like you know I really have no idea but what if it is a synthesis of silicone infused enhancements you know I mean what if that is God’s will so there is an aspect of you believing God as well as being a futurist and believing you down technology let’s rewind a little bit you know you adapted you was it the Krishna consciousness movement that you bounced into or how did that come about with the spiritual practice that you use
yeah I mean the Krishna conscious movement played a part in it for sure I mean it was combination of that and my association with Ram Dass lean around us being very close with but with my father and growing up with him and him being around a lot and so when I was a teenager I got exposed to his work into the Krishna consciousness movement for sure and then you know it took me a while to sort of develop any sort of spiritual practice because I you know I
honestly just wasn’t that disciplined if when I was young so I just was bouncing around you know what I mean but it was still in my soul and imprinted sort of somewhere in there and then later on I kind of got closer to Ram Dass again and met him in a different way I’m not sure how that happened I was those sort of mystical experiences transpire but they did and I just saw him in a different light and I’m part of that community in
that satsang now but the Krishna consciousness movement definitely as well plays a part I’m not you know uninitiated Hari Krishna I would not say that but I have great reverence for what Krishna consciousness is and the overall sort of as ROM das used to love to say when he met neem Karoli Baba in 1967 he gave me a new map of consciousness and so for the way Vedanta and the Hindu blueprint looks at consciousness and energy structures and how that kind of
manifests into spirituality it works for me yeah let’s let’s dive into that yeah so in a daily practice is it kirtan is that what it’s called yeah I mean my daily practice consists of a little bit of meditation just kind of traditional the pastina meditation you know anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes and then kirtan yeah I sing a specific every day and then if time permits a sing more and then if time permits even more I’ll do some job which is
repetition of mantras on on a Moloch you know and beads right yeah but at the bare minimum I do meditation and sanctum prayers yeah I was exposed to the Krishna consciousness movement as well I was working at this startup incubator and they would serve lunch every day nearby so I would just go there I would donate like $5 and this really healthy Indian food which was delicious and then and I slowly started to pick up the teachings of it III can’t say that I
stuck with it but there was something about it that resonated for me as true you know you just kind of feel something as okay this is resonating this fits something this work said maybe conscious mind doesn’t really completely comprehend what that connection is you understand yeah and use some data perfectly the conscious mind does not understand what the subconscious mind it’s connection is tell me about these beads is it repetition of certain
specific sounds that resonates your body or how does that work well it is said that the utterance of the names of God are the same as God itself so if you are chanting the various names of God you know whatever resonate with you the most and this means mantra if you are uttering those name that means you are calling in the divine itself in physical form you are calling it into your space they are one of the same so the repetition of these names the ISKCON are
a Krishna movement is it’s a really good example to look at this because they’re very dedicated to their japa I mean that’s their core practice you know is the repetition of the body Krishna mantra on these beads and by you know reciting it over and over and over again there’s a great quote by a wonderful teacher named radhanath swami that says mantra or kirtan cleanses the dust off the mirror of one’s own heart so the divine lives within your heart
all it’s always within and every tradition will tell you that you know that it’s it’s it’s within but through the process of being alive if you suffering greed desires sense pleasures ego whatever it is your heart gets dusty you know and it just clouds up your divinity and we just become you know the human condition can become very exacerbated on the egoic side so the chanting of these names that just slowly slowly just wipes off some
of the dust and slowly gets you back to who you truly are and that is a manifestation of divinity you know a lot of people do were kind of getting into spirituality and into practices that can sort of get hung up on the external thing well said well if God is within and what why do you have these you know these statues these mortise of gods all over the place while you’re looking at pictures of gurus that’s external isn’t it and it is but the reason for them
it’s because they are reminders unless you are truly a realized being I’m not truly realized being you know I don’t think that’s gonna happen to me this time it’s not looking that way but it must you’re truly realized being you know the human condition keeps coming back it just keeps coming back and keeps coming back so it just you know we need these reminders to go deeper you know yeah and you know the grand illusion the Maya which is it’s so immersive and you
know we all get trapped in that we all get trapped in this sort of cycle of suffering and I think that internal pain that internal struggle tends to cause us to look for external solutions as in drugs alcohol to sort of numb that pain to sort of just numb ourselves away and one of the reasons that I personally connected with the Krishna consciousness movement was just because you know they talked about this they they mentioned
and a lot of the things that some of the people that were living in the Krishna consciousness temple we’re telling you it was it was something like I was going out drinking partying with my friends and the next day you know I felt like shit and I was hungover and it just it was so temporary it was so plastic you know it was really getting to me when I encountered these people who were sort of offering a solution to ok look inside and use this
job I used these beads to kind of resonate the sound you know I was interested it was like a magnet I just pulled towards it you’re so right and they have a very nice and clean perspective distilling what is Maya and what is not and why sense pleasures you know in the middle of all of this – I obviously you know I still have reverence for the psychedelic movement and things like that and you know since pleasures in and of themselves aren’t
necessarily bad things but it is so easy to get carried away with it and to lose yourself in them as sources of endless pleasure because at the end of the day it will never be enough in some ways the the quality of addiction is pervasive throughout the entire human existence you know we are just it’s never enough it’s never enough it’s never enough whether that’s drugs sex alcohol money shopping food bombs power even how we our country measures its health it
measures it on what you know what’s called the GDP which is the assumption of consumption agree of expansion it’s not a metric of restraint it’s a metric of growth gotta have more gotta have more gotta have more that’s how we’re healthy GDP has got to go up that’s an insane way to think yeah and so you know the Krishna consciousness movement just it shatters all of that you know and just goes into the content nests and the purity of this moment and everything
that you have everything that you need is it’s all right here yeah you know I feel like it’s like when the veil is over your eyes and you’re just you know you turn your TV on and you’re just kind of zombie doubt it’s really difficult to see past that illusion because of how pervasive it is hmm Zach I’d really like to talk to you about your relationship with your dad mmm those are big shoes to fill that’s a long shadow to kind of stand
under how old were you when he died I was 22 you know you were around him a lot I was yeah yeah what was the lifestyle like back then when when you were interacting with him and you saw him kind of do these speeches and give these talks I mean how did you feel well it certainly changed a lot over the course of time I have to say um a large part of that do to him divorcing my mother and my mother you know taking off and moving to South America and then I
stayed in Los Angeles with them and you know the fabric of the scene and really changed after that and it got a lot so I forgot a lot crazier a lot more kind of you know rock and roll guess to to put it subtly but growing up it took me a long time to understand what it is he did but when you’re a kid you can get your head around that stuff I I didn’t know you know I knew he was famous and anyway he wrote and I knew he would go
on these college lecture tours but I didn’t understand like the depth of them and I didn’t understand what you know the context of them was or the content he known then he’d get kind of hired for like a b-movie part or just kind of funny and he took me did the set one day and he was just acting as in this role and I was standing on set I was a kid I was from 10 or 11 years old and I was standing there just as I’m on a movie set you know next to lighting guys and
grips and all of those things and and some grip who’s standing next to me goes I can’t believe they’re letting that awful awful man be in this movie and he didn’t know my connection obviously or say you don’t think it would have said it I was like oh my god why would anybody say that about my god like what did he do yeah you know and I asked him on the ride home and I remember that but still that answer was hard for me to get hold of
but you know and then he sort of mentioned that you know the 1960s and psychedelics and LSD were very polarizing it was an amazing time of discovery in expansion individuality and you know a loosening of the cultural restrictions that have previously governed this country but it was also polarized there were a lot of people feeling different things and he pissed a lot of people off so I was just starting to learn about and then but as I sort of
got older I said became a teenager and I was a Deadhead you know it was a huge part of my youth I really got into his work and he know not only was a father but a teacher I mean some of his books had a profound influence on me I’ve grown up you know I can I can feel the you know there’s some pain in your voice there when we talk about him does it bother you when people bring him up to you at all no it doesn’t bother me at all I’m
always happy to to talk about it I love him and I miss him I have great reverence for him I just you know there’s just sort of I guess a natural limit on how much I can answer you know because I am my own person and I’ve spent a lot of years and had to go through a lot of pain and sadly to discover who I truly am and a lot of that was sort of shedding you know I can’t I can’t be him you know I think yeah I mean he’s he was I can’t be that
I can’t try to even follow to do that so I’ve just had a great plan and be happy with that but yeah I have a great reverence and but there’s just only so much I can answer it’s not like I have any sort of secret code or a secret perception into the workings of Timothy Leary’s mind you know just have my my experience that’s a completely fair point and you know I would I would never put you in a position like give me all the secrets I
am only an observer and I’m not in that position at all but I feel like that would be a very difficult position to carry to follow through and you know so one of the reasons that we brought you onto the show is that they’re requested by many of our listeners to have you on but one thing that you did carry on of your father’s work was just you’re interested in psychedelics and or is there a psychedelic that you have leaned towards you asked LSD any of
those oh that’s a good question good question I think I would say like long-term in the sense of it really altered Who I am more than any other psychedelic it’s been LSD it’s really changed the fabric of my being and you know gave me the the tools to pierce the veil in the way that was most profound for me for sure but today it’s pretty rare that I’d want to do an acid trip mainly because it’s so long and my my fragile little eggshell
mind just can’t take it as much as well anymore so I you know I I find DMT to be a very very useful tool because it’s short and I’ve surveyed the landscape of psychedelics you know so much so many times now you know what I mean that I don’t need to constantly go back into a long heroic journeys over and over again I mean now and then sure it’s great it’s valuable but I love the kind of the quick in-and-out profundity that DMT gives in it’s important to regard
these compounds as just tools these are not party compounds these are not things that you used to you know get effed up with your friends and and have a good time that’s just that’s not the way that I see them at all and you know I like to put that disclaimer on it at least that I know that you struggled and battled with addiction yourself what was something for you that was a breaking point where you said to yourself okay I have to change it to have to shift this
jail oh my god yeah I mean I was I was a low-bottom addict you know I I used really hard and ended up in legal problems and then in rehab you know and it was just that simple I mean sure jail is just uh you know a little manifestation of how bad things can get but it really it paints you a picture of okay you know if you don’t fix this this is going to get really ugly this is gonna get you know you’re gonna end your life Wow yeah this is
gonna take you all the way down you know and is this your Dharma is this how you want to live is this what you think you were brought on this planet to do and all of those things gained flashing through my mind and in jail cells and in rehab and and and those voices can be very very quiet at first but they can plant a seed within you that is so deep and so full of reverence that they can fill you up and just make you change your ways you know it’s just not worth
it addiction is such a dark place we’ve had a lot of different doctors and specialists on I think you’ve talked to a dr. Gabor Ma Tei yeah Gabor has like this very interesting perspective on addiction on how it’s rooted in childhood trauma rooted in this suffering that we encounter as children and we are trying to just numb this suffering away we’re just trying to make the pain sort of stop addiction should be regarded as a sort of health disorder
not a criminal disorder do you agree I absolutely agree when a person I think all the work that he’s doing and so many others are doing it is wonderful but I’ll also caveat that too because there is something that Gabor has said in some of those those talks that he gives that I do counter against in that yes all of those things are true childhood trauma and lack of connection and us just trying to you know run away and heal the
pain and all of that is true but there is also a physiological chemical element to it as well and that it doesn’t matter how spiritual I am or how many Hanuman Chalisa is I chant if I put opiates in my body the opiates react differently to me and now the data is now showing that because of the oxycontin epidemic there swept America we now have a lot more data about opioid addiction than we ever have before but that anywhere like as high some
numbers are saying as high as twenty percent of the American population is predisposed to opiate addiction and that’s a really high number I mean Jesus that’s one five people that means it you know you put that chemical inside of you and when you stop taking it you know after the surgery is over or your cover is over your body screams more or more and more and sometimes that has to do a childhood trauma sometimes it has nothing to do with childhood trauma so I
just think that sometimes a lot of those topics that are being floated around in the alternative Addiction healing communities I love them and I think they’re powerful but I think sometimes they can be too generalizing some people just have the gene not everyone needs to let the gene take them all the way to jail I’m not saying that and then when you get that far deep you know yes that probably has a lot to do I could speak for myself you know that went far beyond
just me being strung out and needing more that went into some serious pain and self-loathing to let it go that far healthy evolved people who are in touch you know with their with their hearts and their souls can probably seek help how do you think in your own personal perspective and experience we can and create a more balanced understanding of the process of addiction and kind of coming out through the other side it’s a I mean like you said it before I mean
it’s just I think our entire culture needs to shift its perspective on how it views addiction let’s just start there you know it’s not a criminal justice thing you know this isn’t something that should be persecuted and this should be looked at to the lens of compassion and to the lens of you know sickness but also through the lens of suffering you know it’s no wonder that the first noble truth and the Buddhist path has to do with suffering because you know we are
so fraught with suffering you know it just it comes seems to come so easily for human beings you know an addiction is really just a condition of that it’s just kind of a subset of that of a way to sort of a exacerbate suffering and and find a temporary relief for it it’s kind of hard to say but at first drugs you know I mean I’m talking hard drugs in addiction they do ease the suffering it’s true it works temporarily but you know obviously that doesn’t last and
that’s not sustainable so I think it’s just about kind of changing our entire dynamic language perception and culture around it
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