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calm
what’s up folks this is our episode with
mr. simon g Powell in it we get into the
history of Scylla Simon and its
influences on history and culture we
talk about reconnecting with the
biosphere biomimicry so it’s certainly
one of those wide-ranging conversations
I certainly recommend you check out
Simon’s work I found his book Darwin’s
unfinished business especially
interesting he’s also got a couple of
books out on still Simon you can order
copies of those below otherwise please
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scheduled through March some really
intriguing authors we are full steam
ahead folks thank you guys so much for
the snake
you
the human experiences in session my
guest tonight is mr. simon g Powell his
book is the mushroom explorer Simon
welcome to hxp yeah nice nice to have
thanks for having me on so Simon your
your work surrounds this sort of idea of
silicide in mushrooms and their insights
and you’ve created a couple books on
this I mean what sparked this interest
for you and how did you get into this
that’s a good question why would anyone
spend their adult life investigating a
substance that’s considered this classed
as a schedule 1 in America class a in
the UK as always taboo around it yeah I
became interested in silicide bean as I
suppose many people do because the
effects are so interesting anyone who’s
interested in consciousness and the
potential realms of consciousness and
what I would argue our authentic
spiritual experiences not spiritual in
inverted commas you’re going to
eventually be led to plants and
substances like suicide into psychedelic
substances and I think approached in the
right way with care and caution they can
lead to very illuminating experiences
and it’s because I had a number of
illuminating experiences garnered
deriving from i should add from
mushrooms that grow in the country in
which i live in here in the UK you know
i never no money was ever exchanged this
is a natural resource that grows every
autumn in the UK so it was a case of
exploring this free natural resource
from this generous biased view on which
way in which within which we live it was
through that those kind of nature based
experiences with with a naturally
occurring resource that inspired me and
I’ve stuck with it for about 25 years
because it’s interesting so I mean what
what was
what was the conclusion of some of your
research I mean because I’ve read read
some articles and this is becoming I
think more commonplace that these
studies that are coming out that say
that Silla Simon is able to repair brain
tissue it’s helping with PTSD I mean
there are these ongoing things that seem
to be coming up where Sullivan is
helpful so what is your take on that
well yeah there’s been a resurgence in
scientific research with silicide been
particularly over about the last 5-10
years I’ve recently interviewed some of
the main researchers in America and yes
I penis is proving to be a very useful
therapeutic tool I’m primarily there
it’s being used to alleviate anxiety in
people suffering from terminal cancer
but it’s also being looked at as a
therapy to treat well in Alabama I
recently met a guy a research scientist
from Alabama who’s doing research he’s
looking at using silicide min to treat
cocaine addiction so you can imagine if
they get that it’s going to get a lot of
headlines if they get positive results
from that has been yet so it’s been used
successfully in various therapeutic
settings to cure addictions and to
alleviate anxiety and to alleviate
obsessive-compulsive disorder and this
kind of thing I mean if you if you
recognize that this compound has
benefits why do you think it’s illegal
well that’s probably a leftover from the
I I questioned a lot of the scientists
about this well why it is illegal I’m
there’s a whole that there’s a load of
reasons for that mainly because of what
happened in the the 60s and and then
there’s a fear of sort of the losing
control control of the populace or
something I as an unfounded fear so
there’s an unfounded fear because it’s
an aspect these these psychedelic agents
they they cause to emerge an unusual
potential within the human psyche and
unusual kind of exotic experiences and
we’re not were the
they’re they’re alien to sort of modern
culture although older cultures managed
to integrate these substances so there’s
a lot of fear there because we’re
basically afraid of ourselves we
reflected we think it’s like Pandora’s
box Rowan but I don’t think we need to
have fear but yeah it’s it it’s a slow
integration process and that their
clinic cut their corded a schedule 1 or
class a status because they believe not
to have they believe to be extremely
harmful which is not true they’re not
they’re not a silicide bean is not
addictive it’s not killed anyone and
they’re considered not to have any
medical utility well that’s been proven
wrong recently because papers have been
published showing the medical utility so
things are set to change in the next 10
years of thing right I mean you you live
in England god save the queen but do you
find that the perception in England is
different as far as the usage of these
compounds do you find it’s different
there versus in states well that the
situation until 2005 the situation was
silicide be it was different than
America until 2005 it were in the UK it
was legal to pick and possess
unprocessed suicided mushrooms and that
people have been using them for about 30
years it was only in 2005 they were the
fresh mushroom was illegal eyes but um
yeah I’m in the city this the situation
with with the drug situation in the UK
is pretty much the same as in the USA is
like a 02 alcohol is fine tobacco is
fine but anything else any other
changing consciousness is deemed to be a
criminal offense you know so it’s just
as crass here the situation with drugs
as it is in America well that’s although
I was recently in a liar sales recently
an American I was in Colorado actually
in yeah I mean they’ve legalised
cannabis there now so think that you
know that you’re one step ahead and you
got to wonder why something so readily
available alcohol which turns most
people into complete ass hats is legal
and these compounds that kind of expand
your car
this make you think of you gotta wonder
why the you know that that exists so
moving on here you in your book magic
mushroom explorer and you talk about you
mentioned terence mckenna and you talk
about how kind of bringing the
experience in using the darkness and
silence how have you found that affects
the experience well I talk about in my
book that originally I the terence
mckenna always said you should take
silicide being in silent darkness and i
used to do that in the early 90s but
from the sort of mid 90s onwards until
now i found it just as in my preferred
mode of taking psilocybin is out in
nature in like a wild oak forest far
from the from cities and far from from
civilization and to take mushrooms that
have been picked locally to take them
around the campfire with a close friend
with you know with eyes open some of the
time and exploring the forest and
exploring nature and and bonding with
nature so i think that methodology is
just as rewarding and just as a as
interesting as taking it in silent
darkness so i don’t think there are any
set rules you know there’s a the most
important thing is set and setting to be
in the right environment and to have the
right frame of mind and the right
intention mmhmm yeah you on your website
you describe yourself as having a case
of chronic by ophelia which is an
awareness and love of the instinctive
bond between yourself and other living
systems what what does that mean exactly
it’s just me joking when i say i suffer
from chronic biophilia i’ve had people
write to me and say are you are you okay
now no no it’s this joke is it’s a
british humor but but but because of all
these adventures i had out in the lake
district and snowdonia the last in all
these the last remaining wilderness
areas in the UK where the mushroom grows
and what I like to trek around and pick
them and take them in situ you really
commune with nature if you’re in a
forest you really feel the kind of
wisdom within the
within the forest and if the stars are
out it’s fantastic and the sound of
running water and looking at the trees
and the insects and hearing birds and
all this kind of thing it really
stimulates by Ophelia and we got to
remember we live in a time where there’s
a they call nature deficit disorder
because we’ve become so urbanized we’ve
lost touch with the biosphere you know
much to the biospheres detriment as
we’re learning with as we’re feeling the
effects of this nature deficit disorder
so I mean as a tool for for addressing
nature deficit disorder and catalyzing
biophilia which we need I think you know
silicide bean is a it’s a great tool for
doing that so um yeah chronic Biophilia
that’s just when your bio figlio just
gets ramped up to really high levels and
you know you feel like you’re in love
with with the biosphere you know so do
you feel do you feel like you’re
interacting with the plants and their
consciousness in some way the global
consciousness I’ve written a lot about
the what I call the paradigm of natural
intelligence I think you can interact
and feel and sense that there’s an
intelligence within nature within living
organisms within bio/logic but I don’t
tend to see that as a conscious
intentional intelligence as such I see
it as an unconscious intelligence but it
does it even if I could say it’s an
unconscious intelligence it’s still
replete with wisdom and the whole point
is is that we can learn from life and we
can learn from ecosystems and we can
learn about symbiosis and try and
incorporate that into human culture so
but there are different interpretations
of what term of this intelligence which
is undoubtedly within within the
biosphere hmm okay well in your book the
silicide in solution which i think you
wrote after mushroom explorer right no
no suicide in solution was a lot more
long way back in okay my apologies so so
in so Simon solution you talk about the
role of Scylla Simon and mushrooms and
that the history of our culture and the
connection
and these creatures and organisms create
around us I mean how did you get into
that though can you tell us more about
that please well it’s got a long if the
history of the mushroom is fascinating
because it’s been used in Central
America in and around Mexico for
thousands of years the Maya used the
mushroom we know the the Aztecs use the
mushroom we know and various other
cultures in and around Mexico it’s just
a fascinating story because it was the
West or Europeans and the West didn’t
know about this until Gordon Watson in
the 1950s discovered these secret
mushrooms they’re our money’s going on
in Oaxaca in Mexico so the other whole
history of the mushroom is fascinating
and what’s even more fascinating is that
when it was first when Watson wrote his
famous Life magazine article about
Scylla cyber mushrooms in nothing that
came out in 1957 she’s still within
living memory people would flock to
Mexico to find these mushrooms and
people just did not know that they were
now know there’s there’s a about 200
species worldwide but they were not as
far as we know they weren’t they might
have been used thousands of years ago in
Europe there’s no hard evidence of that
yet but they we didn’t we didn’t know
about it was a new thing and people in
the late 50s and early 60s would go down
to Mexico to try and secure secure to
kiss secure samples of this mushroom not
knowing that they grow all over the
planet you know they’ve been documented
documented everywhere now so they hit
the history of the mushroom where it
grows and how it’s being used is
fascinating what was your what was your
connection with the mint here muscaria
and Christianity I found that
interesting in your book fly agaric
mushrooms well i did i tried the first
mushroom I ever tried was actually the
fly agaric mushroom it’s the big red and
spotted a red red white spot I never
managed to get an effect from them from
what I’ve read they shouldn’t be
confused with silicide in mushrooms
because they’re psycho activities
completely different
they’re not even classed as a
psychedelic I think their class does a
hypnotic or something like that some my
main area of focus is the silicide in
mushroom and not the the fly agaric
mushroom but you do you do mention a
connection between Christianity and a
link between Jesus and this I’m not sure
I don’t remember the name of the person
that you mentioned that started this
theory but basically that uh the Holy
Grail was actually this this fly agaric
mushroom a Mantia muscaria and
Christianity and Jesus is kind of
centered around around that yeah that’s
not an area focus I steer clear that I
don’t know there’s a lot of no comment
no question no not no comment it’s just
it’s not it I’m not I don’t buy into
those notions of because that is because
of the psycho activity of the fly agaric
if you go on erowid and the final leg
room yeah yeah if you go on erowid and
look at people’s experiences for the fly
agaric it’s often you know it’s often a
hand pleasant as a no unpleasant effects
on the body and it’s totally different
to the trip to means and the trip to
means a silicide in things like set
aside in an ayahuasca for instance then
what I would call the true psychedelics
and the fly agaric the active ingredient
muscarine I think it is this is totally
different to the trip to me so I’ve
never bought into those theories that
yeah a little that you just spoke about
okay so let’s let’s move on here so I
mean where do you see yourself moving
towards with with this work I mean how
how do you distinguish yourself and
versus other people who’ve done this I
mean terence mckenna road food of the
gods and so you’re kind of writing about
sullivan but where do you see your work
going within the next ten years or so
well my main area focused now i’m what
i’m interested in the most is this
natural intelligence paradigm as I as I
saying that the new book the thing I the
main thing I got from a
about 25 years of research now surviving
the main thing or the gift in inverted
colors I felt in inverted commas that I
think I received as it were is this
natural intelligence para diamond I’m
very keen to promote the notion that
evolving life is is an intelligence and
I think it’s important because we need
to learn from that intelligence and
we’re at a crucial juncture of human
history and we need to if human culture
is to sustain itself right you’re you
hear a lot about sustainability all the
time now well life life’s been around
for almost 4 billion years and it’s
learned the art of sustainability so
there’s a tremendous amount of wisdom
within organisms within ecosystems and
the relationship symbiotic relationships
between organisms and I used to think
about this and feel this a lot during my
silicide burn experiences and that’s
what I wanna I’m concentrating on it’s
the natural intelligence paradigm and
yeah when I talk about natural
intelligence I don’t even have to talk
about suicide be no I can talk about
silicide bean because it was a creative
inspiration behind behind my current
work but it’s a it’s a subject unto
itself so that’s the the thing let’s
define that what is what is natural
intelligence well you can you can
contrast it with artificial intelligence
if you think of clever robots and that
kind of thing clever computer systems
natural intelligence is what I would
call it it’s the intelligence of life
itself that life particularly the fact
that life evolves and it’s so flexible
and plastic but it’s an intelligence and
it’s not just I mean it the traditional
scientific view would be that life is
pretty much mindless and essentially
purposeless and that nature is
essentially purposeless and that life is
just interesting stuff but it’s not just
interesting stuff is in it is
interesting stuff but it’s interesting
stuff that behaves in a specific way in
the specific way in which living things
behave and bio/logic behave
it’s it’s intelligent because the
remember the root meaning of
intelligence is to it means into this
year which means to choose between so
evolution through natural selection is
the persistent selection of sensible
choices so so when Darwin defined
evolution as descent with modification I
would say it’s more a case of descent by
way of sensible modifications and as
soon as you use the word sensible that
leads into intelligence and so my Maya
what I’m claiming is is that the
evolving life is an intelligence unto
itself and it’s this is shouldn’t be
confused with creationism because
creationists when they talk about
intelligent design they’re inferring in
intelligence outside of nature i’m
saying nature itself is an intelligent
system i mean was there is there
anything in your experience that you
would say is where that defined like
perhaps to find your thinking but i mean
was there any one experience that
changed the way that you think about the
nature of things what well it was mainly
the natural intelligence think eight
were derived from being in forests under
the influence of silicide bin i picked
in the vicinity so it’s just a matter of
time spent in a an ecstatic blissful
state of mind feeling very very close
with the natural environment feeling in
communion with a natural environment and
really sensing that the whole system was
there was an intelligence to it so it’s
yeah it’s from my sillas the inspiration
but behind the natural intelligence
paradigm that i promote came from my
silicide and experiences out in nature
so what I mean what can we do how can we
connect back into the sense of nature
and we’ve disconnected from it we suffer
from technology and this urban sort of
crisis
how do we connect back into nature and
how do we move towards this reconnection
well I mean I mentioned a few you can
have arguments and you use rhetoric but
education is very important at the end
of my latest the magic mushroom explore
a book I mean I talk about things as
simple as seeing the seeing the Milky
Way I mean I think I read somewhere once
at about fifty percent of people now
because most of us live in cities never
see the Milky Way so something as basic
as seeing which our ancestors would have
seen it all the time you know they would
have been connected to the bigger
picture because they would have been
perceiving the bigger the splenda
splendid that the glory of the bigger
picture every night so because of you
know we need to do something about light
pollution and I think children need to
be taken out to places where they can
you know on school trips or whatever in
the early evening and in this at certain
times the year so they can go stargaze
so things like that and we need more
parks we need more roads shut down and
convert it into strips you know like I
was in Central Park recently in new york
i love central park i mean it’s
beautiful you’ve got this park with
beautiful birds slap bang in the middle
of New York City but it needs to be
extended you know you need like larger
roads shut down and converted into
strips of woodland or whatever so we
need more green greenery we need more
green roofs you think of all the roofs
of buildings you know that they’re just
bare we need it you know if you looked
if you’re in a aircraft flying over a
city it looks doesn’t look very organic
so we need to turn make cities more
organics I think green roofs having
living living walls and living roofs is
a good idea basically culture needs to
become more organic if it’s to fit in
with the rest of the biosphere it needs
to become more organic and we you’re
right we have an obsession with human
technology at the moment we’re just
buried in our looking at all you know
I’ve my own phones and stuff and you
know people tripping over
the mess we’ve created kind of thing you
know so um yeah it’s important we get
back to nature because we have to I’m
sure one day all being where we will go
to the stars and human consciousness
consciousness will spread out but we
need a firm footing you know the ladder
has to be kind of strong a base that we
set off from needs to be solid and
healthy only one you’ve got a solid and
healthy that’s the keyword base can you
leap forward kind of thing so we really
need to repair our relationship with a
biosphere in that that’s why I bang on
about this natural intelligence paradigm
because part of the problem is the way
we conceive of life on earth we don’t
see it in the right way I don’t think so
there’s a lot of things that can be done
just even just talking about it as a
good thing right right so you you wrote
and I found this interesting you wrote
in your book Darwin’s and unfinished
business you wrote about how evolution
is not just about survival of the
fittest but also must include clever and
sensible behavior what is I mean what
does that mean what would be an example
of clever and sensible behavior be well
that’s that’s what I was saying earlier
on it’s sensible like a set Darwin
defined evolution as descent with
modification but it’s really too sent
via sensible modifications the genetic
changes the changes in the genetic code
that are selected by nature that are
nourished by nature and preserved by
nature which is the larger environment
are those changes that lead to some kind
of life affirming behavior in the art of
living and being and to improve the art
of living and being behavior has to
change in a sensible way this is why and
at the moment human culture doesn’t is
not sensible in the context of the rest
of the biosphere so this word sensible
is very important but as a basic example
of intelligence think of a slime mold is
this organism and they found that if you
put it is it’s like a mushroom but it’s
not it’s like a fungus but it’s not a
fungus I found you can put it in a maze
with food in the middle and it will
explore it will send out tendrils to all
parts of the maze
there are tendrils that don’t lead to
anywhere sensible there’s no food there
they kind of wither this tendril that
makes it to the center and explores the
center where the food is that Pro comes
preserved and the the the slime mold
will concentrate its structure into a
direct route to the food at the center
of the maze and when they they did these
experiments recently and it was hailed
as an example of intelligence without a
nervous system and it was made headlines
in nature magazine you know intelligence
you know really primitive organism but
that’s an a good example of sensible
behavior that doesn’t need to be
conscious but it’s sensible behavior so
what nature constantly preserves is
sensible behavior you know better
metabolism better vision better hearing
better running ability better ability to
find water if you’re a plant better
ability to synthesize enzymes it’s
always to do with sensible
life-affirming changes and when you
think about that you embrace that idea
that leads into this notion that it’s
intelligence and that’s what
intelligence is we are intelligent
because we can make sense of our
environment and the life is the same
life has learned to make sense of
gravity to make sense of the laws of
physics to make sense of the laws of
chemistry the whole thing is in it is in
intelligence so human intelligence is
the latest offshoot of this human human
consciousness and human intelligence is
built on our a huge pyramid of already
existing intelligence which is the
biosphere so how much how much would you
say that our lack of understanding of
this processor or maybe we forgot that
we were connected to the biosphere maybe
through all this technology and all this
advancement that we’ve we’ve
disconnected from nature or somehow we
have it’s nice that’s not like a
suggestion we have disconnect
disconnected from nature that’s why
we’re suffering from global warming and
all these environmental crises you know
this is there’s no that’s not new at
this we’re waking up to this more and
more that we live in a human culture is
totally
the way I think about it’s like we’ve
cocooned ourselves in these urban
environments that are just full of you
know the value system that is nourished
within these urban environments all to
do with making money and advertising and
you know it’s just human ideas
everywhere we’ve got basically mankind
has his head up his own ass you know we
don’t we’ve lost this connection with
the life-support system because not only
is the biosphere naturally intelligent
it’s a life-support system the air that
you’re breathing now in the air that I’m
breathing now well you know the you know
Apple don’t make that air you know Sony
don’t make it these big corporations
don’t make fresh oxygen you know it
comes from huge forests that are still
around its third that circle the
Northern Hemisphere and there you get
algae in the ocean you know that the the
biosphere is is a life-support system it
sustains itself and there are all these
very complex cycles that we don’t
understand yet sand symbiotic
relationships huge webs of symbiotic
natural intelligence that we were only
beginning to acknowledge and we’ve just
like I say we’ve just cocooned ourselves
away from that we think we can just do
anything we like build anything we like
burn as much fossil fuel as we like
without realizing where fossil that
fossil fuel was produced by naturally
the natural naturally intelligent
activity of photosynthesizing plants
we’ve just used we like immature
children but you know blundering about
and you know pulling up things and that
we can do this we can do that without
any any awareness of the larger
life-support system which even now is
sustaining us as we destroy that life
support system so we really need to wake
up to the the wisdom that is inherent
within the rest of life and within the
rest of the biosphere and asked if you
can’t grok that then take some silicide
bin mushrooms and maybe you can you know
I agree completely that
we are kind of trapped and I think we’ve
we’ve laid out the problem and we’re
kind of we’ve we’ve demonstrated that
and we’ve built that so what is the
solution I mean how do we move towards
more green things around us I mean how
can we consciously not just by talking
about it but how can we practically how
can we use action to do these things
well I think one that one of the good
was signs in the right direction is the
bio mimicry movement you where the
biomimicry movement no the biomimicry
movement they’ve got a an institute
biomimicry Institute biomimicry means
they’re their definition of the
biomimicry movement is the conscious
emulations of nature’s genius which is
natural intelligence in it in other
words the conscious emulations of
nature’s genius so they’re looking at
engineering solutions by looking at how
nature does things so that’s the step in
the right direction we need to look to
nature to learn how nature does things
how life does things how life uses
energy how life recycles our input
become our output becomes input and this
kind of thing so there’s a lot there’s a
lot of people working on this and yeah I
mean energy we need to check it was
still addicted to fossil fuels and in
the UK they recently gave the go-ahead
for the first fracking operation and I
was thinking man it’s like a it’s like a
cigarette addict who’s dying of lung
cancer instead of switching to a
electronic cigarette or giving up to
back all together is ripping up the
floorboards to try and find little bits
of tobacco down there you know so
fracking is the same it’s a desperate
attempt to squeeze as much fossil fuel
out of the biosphere as possible and
that’s not the right direction you know
so our energy you know we we really have
to switch to you know green renewable
forms of energy and such so yeah there’s
all kind of green movements working on
this you know you’re aware of this and
you’ve got a an interest in permaculture
now and people getting off the grid and
yeah I just I I quickly looked this up
and I guess velcro is an example of
biomimicry yeah the way that there’s all
manner of things they’ve you know you
can look at a thing how much energy is
used in air conditioning in hot
countries you know there’s a tremendous
amount of electricity used and therefore
as a high carbon footprint but you know
you look at a termite mound it remains
air-conditioned in a relatively low
temperature because the termites would
die otherwise and you know it’s not
plugged into into anywhere it’s all done
through water evaporation and you know
the actual structure and stuff so like
life really is ingenious it’s dice is
figured out all kinds of wonderful ways
of using energy and you know and
achieving homeostasis and a healthy a
healthy Constitution so and we we need
to be looking to we can learn there’s
what is there’s wisdom in the rest of
life we’re not the only species you know
there’s a life has been around for four
billion years so it must be doing
something right you know Forest you get
forests that I’ve been a Philippines
I’ve visited forests that were
apparently about 60 million years old
and it they weren’t messy anything how
did this survive for 60 million years
without without humans with clipboards
overseeing everything you know it works
on its own because life that’s what
evolution does it it works out how to do
things so we really need my point is
it’s at my point is that our
relationship was the biosphere with a
rest of nature at the moment is wanting
and we need to redress that relationship
because it’s not healthy at the moment
Simon we’re approaching the end here man
where can people find your work well you
can just was my website simon g Powell
calm all my stuff’s on their books and
interviews and films I’ve made of stuff
so is there anything you’re currently
working on yeah I’m not it’s been eight
years since I made a film I’ve just
begun filming some people to make a
making a I said earlier I’m natural
intelligence is my main thing but I’ve
got a last film
I want to make about silicide been
looking at the reefs the resurgence in
suicide been research suicide in science
i’m making I’ve just begun filming for a
new documentary about the the mushroom
right Simon well I really really
appreciate your time sir thank you so
much for being here this is the human
experience we are going to get out of
here we will see you guys next week
thank you so much for listening