Transcript for Simon G. Powell

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what’s up folks this is our episode with

mr. simon g Powell in it we get into the

history of Scylla Simon and its

influences on history and culture we

talk about reconnecting with the

biosphere biomimicry so it’s certainly

one of those wide-ranging conversations

I certainly recommend you check out

Simon’s work I found his book Darwin’s

unfinished business especially

interesting he’s also got a couple of

books out on still Simon you can order

copies of those below otherwise please

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ahead folks thank you guys so much for

the snake


the human experiences in session my

guest tonight is mr. simon g Powell his

book is the mushroom explorer Simon

welcome to hxp yeah nice nice to have

thanks for having me on so Simon your

your work surrounds this sort of idea of

silicide in mushrooms and their insights

and you’ve created a couple books on

this I mean what sparked this interest

for you and how did you get into this

that’s a good question why would anyone

spend their adult life investigating a

substance that’s considered this classed

as a schedule 1 in America class a in

the UK as always taboo around it yeah I

became interested in silicide bean as I

suppose many people do because the

effects are so interesting anyone who’s

interested in consciousness and the

potential realms of consciousness and

what I would argue our authentic

spiritual experiences not spiritual in

inverted commas you’re going to

eventually be led to plants and

substances like suicide into psychedelic

substances and I think approached in the

right way with care and caution they can

lead to very illuminating experiences

and it’s because I had a number of

illuminating experiences garnered

deriving from i should add from

mushrooms that grow in the country in

which i live in here in the UK you know

i never no money was ever exchanged this

is a natural resource that grows every

autumn in the UK so it was a case of

exploring this free natural resource

from this generous biased view on which

way in which within which we live it was

through that those kind of nature based

experiences with with a naturally

occurring resource that inspired me and

I’ve stuck with it for about 25 years

because it’s interesting so I mean what

what was

what was the conclusion of some of your

research I mean because I’ve read read

some articles and this is becoming I

think more commonplace that these

studies that are coming out that say

that Silla Simon is able to repair brain

tissue it’s helping with PTSD I mean

there are these ongoing things that seem

to be coming up where Sullivan is

helpful so what is your take on that

well yeah there’s been a resurgence in

scientific research with silicide been

particularly over about the last 5-10

years I’ve recently interviewed some of

the main researchers in America and yes

I penis is proving to be a very useful

therapeutic tool I’m primarily there

it’s being used to alleviate anxiety in

people suffering from terminal cancer

but it’s also being looked at as a

therapy to treat well in Alabama I

recently met a guy a research scientist

from Alabama who’s doing research he’s

looking at using silicide min to treat

cocaine addiction so you can imagine if

they get that it’s going to get a lot of

headlines if they get positive results

from that has been yet so it’s been used

successfully in various therapeutic

settings to cure addictions and to

alleviate anxiety and to alleviate

obsessive-compulsive disorder and this

kind of thing I mean if you if you

recognize that this compound has

benefits why do you think it’s illegal

well that’s probably a leftover from the

I I questioned a lot of the scientists

about this well why it is illegal I’m

there’s a whole that there’s a load of

reasons for that mainly because of what

happened in the the 60s and and then

there’s a fear of sort of the losing

control control of the populace or

something I as an unfounded fear so

there’s an unfounded fear because it’s

an aspect these these psychedelic agents

they they cause to emerge an unusual

potential within the human psyche and

unusual kind of exotic experiences and

we’re not were the

they’re they’re alien to sort of modern

culture although older cultures managed

to integrate these substances so there’s

a lot of fear there because we’re

basically afraid of ourselves we

reflected we think it’s like Pandora’s

box Rowan but I don’t think we need to

have fear but yeah it’s it it’s a slow

integration process and that their

clinic cut their corded a schedule 1 or

class a status because they believe not

to have they believe to be extremely

harmful which is not true they’re not

they’re not a silicide bean is not

addictive it’s not killed anyone and

they’re considered not to have any

medical utility well that’s been proven

wrong recently because papers have been

published showing the medical utility so

things are set to change in the next 10

years of thing right I mean you you live

in England god save the queen but do you

find that the perception in England is

different as far as the usage of these

compounds do you find it’s different

there versus in states well that the

situation until 2005 the situation was

silicide be it was different than

America until 2005 it were in the UK it

was legal to pick and possess

unprocessed suicided mushrooms and that

people have been using them for about 30

years it was only in 2005 they were the

fresh mushroom was illegal eyes but um

yeah I’m in the city this the situation

with with the drug situation in the UK

is pretty much the same as in the USA is

like a 02 alcohol is fine tobacco is

fine but anything else any other

changing consciousness is deemed to be a

criminal offense you know so it’s just

as crass here the situation with drugs

as it is in America well that’s although

I was recently in a liar sales recently

an American I was in Colorado actually

in yeah I mean they’ve legalised

cannabis there now so think that you

know that you’re one step ahead and you

got to wonder why something so readily

available alcohol which turns most

people into complete ass hats is legal

and these compounds that kind of expand

your car

this make you think of you gotta wonder

why the you know that that exists so

moving on here you in your book magic

mushroom explorer and you talk about you

mentioned terence mckenna and you talk

about how kind of bringing the

experience in using the darkness and

silence how have you found that affects

the experience well I talk about in my

book that originally I the terence

mckenna always said you should take

silicide being in silent darkness and i

used to do that in the early 90s but

from the sort of mid 90s onwards until

now i found it just as in my preferred

mode of taking psilocybin is out in

nature in like a wild oak forest far

from the from cities and far from from

civilization and to take mushrooms that

have been picked locally to take them

around the campfire with a close friend

with you know with eyes open some of the

time and exploring the forest and

exploring nature and and bonding with

nature so i think that methodology is

just as rewarding and just as a as

interesting as taking it in silent

darkness so i don’t think there are any

set rules you know there’s a the most

important thing is set and setting to be

in the right environment and to have the

right frame of mind and the right

intention mmhmm yeah you on your website

you describe yourself as having a case

of chronic by ophelia which is an

awareness and love of the instinctive

bond between yourself and other living

systems what what does that mean exactly

it’s just me joking when i say i suffer

from chronic biophilia i’ve had people

write to me and say are you are you okay

now no no it’s this joke is it’s a

british humor but but but because of all

these adventures i had out in the lake

district and snowdonia the last in all

these the last remaining wilderness

areas in the UK where the mushroom grows

and what I like to trek around and pick

them and take them in situ you really

commune with nature if you’re in a

forest you really feel the kind of

wisdom within the

within the forest and if the stars are

out it’s fantastic and the sound of

running water and looking at the trees

and the insects and hearing birds and

all this kind of thing it really

stimulates by Ophelia and we got to

remember we live in a time where there’s

a they call nature deficit disorder

because we’ve become so urbanized we’ve

lost touch with the biosphere you know

much to the biospheres detriment as

we’re learning with as we’re feeling the

effects of this nature deficit disorder

so I mean as a tool for for addressing

nature deficit disorder and catalyzing

biophilia which we need I think you know

silicide bean is a it’s a great tool for

doing that so um yeah chronic Biophilia

that’s just when your bio figlio just

gets ramped up to really high levels and

you know you feel like you’re in love

with with the biosphere you know so do

you feel do you feel like you’re

interacting with the plants and their

consciousness in some way the global

consciousness I’ve written a lot about

the what I call the paradigm of natural

intelligence I think you can interact

and feel and sense that there’s an

intelligence within nature within living

organisms within bio/logic but I don’t

tend to see that as a conscious

intentional intelligence as such I see

it as an unconscious intelligence but it

does it even if I could say it’s an

unconscious intelligence it’s still

replete with wisdom and the whole point

is is that we can learn from life and we

can learn from ecosystems and we can

learn about symbiosis and try and

incorporate that into human culture so

but there are different interpretations

of what term of this intelligence which

is undoubtedly within within the

biosphere hmm okay well in your book the

silicide in solution which i think you

wrote after mushroom explorer right no

no suicide in solution was a lot more

long way back in okay my apologies so so

in so Simon solution you talk about the

role of Scylla Simon and mushrooms and

that the history of our culture and the


and these creatures and organisms create

around us I mean how did you get into

that though can you tell us more about

that please well it’s got a long if the

history of the mushroom is fascinating

because it’s been used in Central

America in and around Mexico for

thousands of years the Maya used the

mushroom we know the the Aztecs use the

mushroom we know and various other

cultures in and around Mexico it’s just

a fascinating story because it was the

West or Europeans and the West didn’t

know about this until Gordon Watson in

the 1950s discovered these secret

mushrooms they’re our money’s going on

in Oaxaca in Mexico so the other whole

history of the mushroom is fascinating

and what’s even more fascinating is that

when it was first when Watson wrote his

famous Life magazine article about

Scylla cyber mushrooms in nothing that

came out in 1957 she’s still within

living memory people would flock to

Mexico to find these mushrooms and

people just did not know that they were

now know there’s there’s a about 200

species worldwide but they were not as

far as we know they weren’t they might

have been used thousands of years ago in

Europe there’s no hard evidence of that

yet but they we didn’t we didn’t know

about it was a new thing and people in

the late 50s and early 60s would go down

to Mexico to try and secure secure to

kiss secure samples of this mushroom not

knowing that they grow all over the

planet you know they’ve been documented

documented everywhere now so they hit

the history of the mushroom where it

grows and how it’s being used is

fascinating what was your what was your

connection with the mint here muscaria

and Christianity I found that

interesting in your book fly agaric

mushrooms well i did i tried the first

mushroom I ever tried was actually the

fly agaric mushroom it’s the big red and

spotted a red red white spot I never

managed to get an effect from them from

what I’ve read they shouldn’t be

confused with silicide in mushrooms

because they’re psycho activities

completely different

they’re not even classed as a

psychedelic I think their class does a

hypnotic or something like that some my

main area of focus is the silicide in

mushroom and not the the fly agaric

mushroom but you do you do mention a

connection between Christianity and a

link between Jesus and this I’m not sure

I don’t remember the name of the person

that you mentioned that started this

theory but basically that uh the Holy

Grail was actually this this fly agaric

mushroom a Mantia muscaria and

Christianity and Jesus is kind of

centered around around that yeah that’s

not an area focus I steer clear that I

don’t know there’s a lot of no comment

no question no not no comment it’s just

it’s not it I’m not I don’t buy into

those notions of because that is because

of the psycho activity of the fly agaric

if you go on erowid and the final leg

room yeah yeah if you go on erowid and

look at people’s experiences for the fly

agaric it’s often you know it’s often a

hand pleasant as a no unpleasant effects

on the body and it’s totally different

to the trip to means and the trip to

means a silicide in things like set

aside in an ayahuasca for instance then

what I would call the true psychedelics

and the fly agaric the active ingredient

muscarine I think it is this is totally

different to the trip to me so I’ve

never bought into those theories that

yeah a little that you just spoke about

okay so let’s let’s move on here so I

mean where do you see yourself moving

towards with with this work I mean how

how do you distinguish yourself and

versus other people who’ve done this I

mean terence mckenna road food of the

gods and so you’re kind of writing about

sullivan but where do you see your work

going within the next ten years or so

well my main area focused now i’m what

i’m interested in the most is this

natural intelligence paradigm as I as I

saying that the new book the thing I the

main thing I got from a

about 25 years of research now surviving

the main thing or the gift in inverted

colors I felt in inverted commas that I

think I received as it were is this

natural intelligence para diamond I’m

very keen to promote the notion that

evolving life is is an intelligence and

I think it’s important because we need

to learn from that intelligence and

we’re at a crucial juncture of human

history and we need to if human culture

is to sustain itself right you’re you

hear a lot about sustainability all the

time now well life life’s been around

for almost 4 billion years and it’s

learned the art of sustainability so

there’s a tremendous amount of wisdom

within organisms within ecosystems and

the relationship symbiotic relationships

between organisms and I used to think

about this and feel this a lot during my

silicide burn experiences and that’s

what I wanna I’m concentrating on it’s

the natural intelligence paradigm and

yeah when I talk about natural

intelligence I don’t even have to talk

about suicide be no I can talk about

silicide bean because it was a creative

inspiration behind behind my current

work but it’s a it’s a subject unto

itself so that’s the the thing let’s

define that what is what is natural

intelligence well you can you can

contrast it with artificial intelligence

if you think of clever robots and that

kind of thing clever computer systems

natural intelligence is what I would

call it it’s the intelligence of life

itself that life particularly the fact

that life evolves and it’s so flexible

and plastic but it’s an intelligence and

it’s not just I mean it the traditional

scientific view would be that life is

pretty much mindless and essentially

purposeless and that nature is

essentially purposeless and that life is

just interesting stuff but it’s not just

interesting stuff is in it is

interesting stuff but it’s interesting

stuff that behaves in a specific way in

the specific way in which living things

behave and bio/logic behave

it’s it’s intelligent because the

remember the root meaning of

intelligence is to it means into this

year which means to choose between so

evolution through natural selection is

the persistent selection of sensible

choices so so when Darwin defined

evolution as descent with modification I

would say it’s more a case of descent by

way of sensible modifications and as

soon as you use the word sensible that

leads into intelligence and so my Maya

what I’m claiming is is that the

evolving life is an intelligence unto

itself and it’s this is shouldn’t be

confused with creationism because

creationists when they talk about

intelligent design they’re inferring in

intelligence outside of nature i’m

saying nature itself is an intelligent

system i mean was there is there

anything in your experience that you

would say is where that defined like

perhaps to find your thinking but i mean

was there any one experience that

changed the way that you think about the

nature of things what well it was mainly

the natural intelligence think eight

were derived from being in forests under

the influence of silicide bin i picked

in the vicinity so it’s just a matter of

time spent in a an ecstatic blissful

state of mind feeling very very close

with the natural environment feeling in

communion with a natural environment and

really sensing that the whole system was

there was an intelligence to it so it’s

yeah it’s from my sillas the inspiration

but behind the natural intelligence

paradigm that i promote came from my

silicide and experiences out in nature

so what I mean what can we do how can we

connect back into the sense of nature

and we’ve disconnected from it we suffer

from technology and this urban sort of


how do we connect back into nature and

how do we move towards this reconnection

well I mean I mentioned a few you can

have arguments and you use rhetoric but

education is very important at the end

of my latest the magic mushroom explore

a book I mean I talk about things as

simple as seeing the seeing the Milky

Way I mean I think I read somewhere once

at about fifty percent of people now

because most of us live in cities never

see the Milky Way so something as basic

as seeing which our ancestors would have

seen it all the time you know they would

have been connected to the bigger

picture because they would have been

perceiving the bigger the splenda

splendid that the glory of the bigger

picture every night so because of you

know we need to do something about light

pollution and I think children need to

be taken out to places where they can

you know on school trips or whatever in

the early evening and in this at certain

times the year so they can go stargaze

so things like that and we need more

parks we need more roads shut down and

convert it into strips you know like I

was in Central Park recently in new york

i love central park i mean it’s

beautiful you’ve got this park with

beautiful birds slap bang in the middle

of New York City but it needs to be

extended you know you need like larger

roads shut down and converted into

strips of woodland or whatever so we

need more green greenery we need more

green roofs you think of all the roofs

of buildings you know that they’re just

bare we need it you know if you looked

if you’re in a aircraft flying over a

city it looks doesn’t look very organic

so we need to turn make cities more

organics I think green roofs having

living living walls and living roofs is

a good idea basically culture needs to

become more organic if it’s to fit in

with the rest of the biosphere it needs

to become more organic and we you’re

right we have an obsession with human

technology at the moment we’re just

buried in our looking at all you know

I’ve my own phones and stuff and you

know people tripping over

the mess we’ve created kind of thing you

know so um yeah it’s important we get

back to nature because we have to I’m

sure one day all being where we will go

to the stars and human consciousness

consciousness will spread out but we

need a firm footing you know the ladder

has to be kind of strong a base that we

set off from needs to be solid and

healthy only one you’ve got a solid and

healthy that’s the keyword base can you

leap forward kind of thing so we really

need to repair our relationship with a

biosphere in that that’s why I bang on

about this natural intelligence paradigm

because part of the problem is the way

we conceive of life on earth we don’t

see it in the right way I don’t think so

there’s a lot of things that can be done

just even just talking about it as a

good thing right right so you you wrote

and I found this interesting you wrote

in your book Darwin’s and unfinished

business you wrote about how evolution

is not just about survival of the

fittest but also must include clever and

sensible behavior what is I mean what

does that mean what would be an example

of clever and sensible behavior be well

that’s that’s what I was saying earlier

on it’s sensible like a set Darwin

defined evolution as descent with

modification but it’s really too sent

via sensible modifications the genetic

changes the changes in the genetic code

that are selected by nature that are

nourished by nature and preserved by

nature which is the larger environment

are those changes that lead to some kind

of life affirming behavior in the art of

living and being and to improve the art

of living and being behavior has to

change in a sensible way this is why and

at the moment human culture doesn’t is

not sensible in the context of the rest

of the biosphere so this word sensible

is very important but as a basic example

of intelligence think of a slime mold is

this organism and they found that if you

put it is it’s like a mushroom but it’s

not it’s like a fungus but it’s not a

fungus I found you can put it in a maze

with food in the middle and it will

explore it will send out tendrils to all

parts of the maze

there are tendrils that don’t lead to

anywhere sensible there’s no food there

they kind of wither this tendril that

makes it to the center and explores the

center where the food is that Pro comes

preserved and the the the slime mold

will concentrate its structure into a

direct route to the food at the center

of the maze and when they they did these

experiments recently and it was hailed

as an example of intelligence without a

nervous system and it was made headlines

in nature magazine you know intelligence

you know really primitive organism but

that’s an a good example of sensible

behavior that doesn’t need to be

conscious but it’s sensible behavior so

what nature constantly preserves is

sensible behavior you know better

metabolism better vision better hearing

better running ability better ability to

find water if you’re a plant better

ability to synthesize enzymes it’s

always to do with sensible

life-affirming changes and when you

think about that you embrace that idea

that leads into this notion that it’s

intelligence and that’s what

intelligence is we are intelligent

because we can make sense of our

environment and the life is the same

life has learned to make sense of

gravity to make sense of the laws of

physics to make sense of the laws of

chemistry the whole thing is in it is in

intelligence so human intelligence is

the latest offshoot of this human human

consciousness and human intelligence is

built on our a huge pyramid of already

existing intelligence which is the

biosphere so how much how much would you

say that our lack of understanding of

this processor or maybe we forgot that

we were connected to the biosphere maybe

through all this technology and all this

advancement that we’ve we’ve

disconnected from nature or somehow we

have it’s nice that’s not like a

suggestion we have disconnect

disconnected from nature that’s why

we’re suffering from global warming and

all these environmental crises you know

this is there’s no that’s not new at

this we’re waking up to this more and

more that we live in a human culture is


the way I think about it’s like we’ve

cocooned ourselves in these urban

environments that are just full of you

know the value system that is nourished

within these urban environments all to

do with making money and advertising and

you know it’s just human ideas

everywhere we’ve got basically mankind

has his head up his own ass you know we

don’t we’ve lost this connection with

the life-support system because not only

is the biosphere naturally intelligent

it’s a life-support system the air that

you’re breathing now in the air that I’m

breathing now well you know the you know

Apple don’t make that air you know Sony

don’t make it these big corporations

don’t make fresh oxygen you know it

comes from huge forests that are still

around its third that circle the

Northern Hemisphere and there you get

algae in the ocean you know that the the

biosphere is is a life-support system it

sustains itself and there are all these

very complex cycles that we don’t

understand yet sand symbiotic

relationships huge webs of symbiotic

natural intelligence that we were only

beginning to acknowledge and we’ve just

like I say we’ve just cocooned ourselves

away from that we think we can just do

anything we like build anything we like

burn as much fossil fuel as we like

without realizing where fossil that

fossil fuel was produced by naturally

the natural naturally intelligent

activity of photosynthesizing plants

we’ve just used we like immature

children but you know blundering about

and you know pulling up things and that

we can do this we can do that without

any any awareness of the larger

life-support system which even now is

sustaining us as we destroy that life

support system so we really need to wake

up to the the wisdom that is inherent

within the rest of life and within the

rest of the biosphere and asked if you

can’t grok that then take some silicide

bin mushrooms and maybe you can you know

I agree completely that

we are kind of trapped and I think we’ve

we’ve laid out the problem and we’re

kind of we’ve we’ve demonstrated that

and we’ve built that so what is the

solution I mean how do we move towards

more green things around us I mean how

can we consciously not just by talking

about it but how can we practically how

can we use action to do these things

well I think one that one of the good

was signs in the right direction is the

bio mimicry movement you where the

biomimicry movement no the biomimicry

movement they’ve got a an institute

biomimicry Institute biomimicry means

they’re their definition of the

biomimicry movement is the conscious

emulations of nature’s genius which is

natural intelligence in it in other

words the conscious emulations of

nature’s genius so they’re looking at

engineering solutions by looking at how

nature does things so that’s the step in

the right direction we need to look to

nature to learn how nature does things

how life does things how life uses

energy how life recycles our input

become our output becomes input and this

kind of thing so there’s a lot there’s a

lot of people working on this and yeah I

mean energy we need to check it was

still addicted to fossil fuels and in

the UK they recently gave the go-ahead

for the first fracking operation and I

was thinking man it’s like a it’s like a

cigarette addict who’s dying of lung

cancer instead of switching to a

electronic cigarette or giving up to

back all together is ripping up the

floorboards to try and find little bits

of tobacco down there you know so

fracking is the same it’s a desperate

attempt to squeeze as much fossil fuel

out of the biosphere as possible and

that’s not the right direction you know

so our energy you know we we really have

to switch to you know green renewable

forms of energy and such so yeah there’s

all kind of green movements working on

this you know you’re aware of this and

you’ve got a an interest in permaculture

now and people getting off the grid and

yeah I just I I quickly looked this up

and I guess velcro is an example of

biomimicry yeah the way that there’s all

manner of things they’ve you know you

can look at a thing how much energy is

used in air conditioning in hot

countries you know there’s a tremendous

amount of electricity used and therefore

as a high carbon footprint but you know

you look at a termite mound it remains

air-conditioned in a relatively low

temperature because the termites would

die otherwise and you know it’s not

plugged into into anywhere it’s all done

through water evaporation and you know

the actual structure and stuff so like

life really is ingenious it’s dice is

figured out all kinds of wonderful ways

of using energy and you know and

achieving homeostasis and a healthy a

healthy Constitution so and we we need

to be looking to we can learn there’s

what is there’s wisdom in the rest of

life we’re not the only species you know

there’s a life has been around for four

billion years so it must be doing

something right you know Forest you get

forests that I’ve been a Philippines

I’ve visited forests that were

apparently about 60 million years old

and it they weren’t messy anything how

did this survive for 60 million years

without without humans with clipboards

overseeing everything you know it works

on its own because life that’s what

evolution does it it works out how to do

things so we really need my point is

it’s at my point is that our

relationship was the biosphere with a

rest of nature at the moment is wanting

and we need to redress that relationship

because it’s not healthy at the moment

Simon we’re approaching the end here man

where can people find your work well you

can just was my website simon g Powell

calm all my stuff’s on their books and

interviews and films I’ve made of stuff

so is there anything you’re currently

working on yeah I’m not it’s been eight

years since I made a film I’ve just

begun filming some people to make a

making a I said earlier I’m natural

intelligence is my main thing but I’ve

got a last film

I want to make about silicide been

looking at the reefs the resurgence in

suicide been research suicide in science

i’m making I’ve just begun filming for a

new documentary about the the mushroom

right Simon well I really really

appreciate your time sir thank you so

much for being here this is the human

experience we are going to get out of

here we will see you guys next week

thank you so much for listening

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