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strangers thank you for listening what’s

up guys this is a phenomenal

conversation with dr. Rick Strassman the

author of DMT the spirit molecule in it

we get into some of the cultural

ramifications of the usage of mt mt we

talked about the stigma behind the usage

of this compound you will enjoy this

episode it was our second time with dr.

Strassmann on the show so we thoroughly

enjoyed his presence please pick up a

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enjoy this episode the human experience

is activating the DMT in your brain as

we speak to our guest dr. Rick Strassman

dr. strassman welcome back to atrix

peace her it’s a pleasure well thanks

it’s nice to be on your show so dr.

Strasser and I think I think the last

time that we spoke was actually exactly

a year from now we we spoke in June of

2015 and we covered your second book

soul prophecy I mean in the last

year what would you say in a cultural

regard hi and I’m diving right in here

but what would you say in a cultural

regard how do you think the perception

of dmt DMT containing substances I you

ask how do you think the perception of

that has changed in mainstream culture

well I think when it comes to DMT within

the scientific community even you know

pure DMT within the lay community it’s

still sort of a sleeper you know

relative to ayahuasca in particular and

you know relative to other drugs like

you know silicide bin which are getting

a lot of air time within the research

community and LSD is beginning to get

some attention within the academic world

as well you know DMT there hasn’t been a

lot of you know Newton you know new

scientific research with DMT you there’s

a Hungarian group which is exploring the

relationship between DMT and the sigma

receptor which is a unique receptor in

the brain but it’s still kind of

esoteric uh you know so you know people

aren’t you’re really talking about you

know DMT like they are you know the

other drugs you know that may change a

colleague a junior colleague of mine a

young guy from Britain who lives in

Japan and isn’t is an academic in Japan

he and I just day in paper that actually

just came out today in his final form

and it is a model for the continuous

infusion of pure DMT you know to keep

people in that state for an extended

period of time asking quite a few hits

on the journal in which it appeared

frontiers in pharmacology you so that

may stir the pot some with you know DMT

you know ayahuasca is increasingly you

know popular uh you know uh no

celebrities are you know taking it

talking about it you know Chelsea

Handler I you know had an episode on

ayahuasca on her show so Lindsay Lohan

also has been you know talking about her

ayahuasca experiences in a positive

light to with respect to my work it’s

been kind of a lukewarm reception

because of my attempts to bridge the

world of the Hebrew Bible with the

psychedelic worlds and they’re still and

probably will always continue to be a

fair amount of friction between those

with an interest in the psychedelic

state and the psychedelic drugs and the

well at least you know their view or

their perspective or their understanding

of traditional Western religions like

Judaism which is the the entity who’s

your sacred book spiritual book I’ve

tried to relate to the DMT experience

but you you you kind of are known for

breaking the door open on the DMP

research I mean you you you kind of

bridged that that gap that people and

people recognize your work as as

revolutionary in in regards to DMT the

spirit molecule I mean that’s that’s

kind of all I hear about when I hear

about DMT right and you know my current

work or the work I’ve been applying

myself to for the last gosh almost 20

years now is to you know take the DMT

story further it kind of addresses the

reason people take you know psychedelics

I mean a lot of people take these drugs

and want these kinds of experiences

for enjoyment for pleasure to increase

their artistic or emotional appreciation

of things but there will always be a

fairly large minority of people that are

interested in the spiritual properties

of these drugs and the estates that they

provide entrance to and my work kind of

takes it into you know the realm of the

Hebrew Bible as opposed to the most you

know common religious your metaphors or

religious models which are in Buddhism

and Latin American shamanism I mean why

did you if I can ask why did you go

there and why did you take it into this

Judaism aspect I mean why why why go

from from DMT the spirit molecule to DMT

the soul prophecy well I kind of you

know began the DMT work from a Buddhist

spiritual model I had been you know

steeped in Zen practice and study for

over 20 years and I was expecting a

particular type of religious or

spiritual experience as a result of DMT

administration consistent with the

Buddhist enlightenment experience you

know ken show or Satori and that state

is one of emptiness there’s no words

there’s no your physical sensations

there’s no content there’s no visions

there’s no feelings there’s no concepts

there’s a unification of one’s

personality or a obliteration or merging

or you know unification of one’s

individual personality with the ground

of all being which could be you know

verbalized or expressed as the white

light the you know expression in in

Buddhism is emptiness or no sunyata

you know so that was you know those were

the kinds of experiences that both

myself and the volunteers were expecting

I mean I came or was coming from a

Buddhist background and most of my

volunteers also had some experience with

Eastern religions Eastern religious

practices but the states which the

higher dose of DMT occasion was anything

you know but like the Enlightenment

state it was you know full of content

feelings ideas it was it was a densely

populated world of light where you

people interacted with the you know

contents that they encountered in that

state the personality was maintained

their interactions you know there were

questions and answers there was healing

and harming all kinds of things which

were really extremely at you know

extremely acting of the opposite end of

what both i and the volunteers were

expecting yes oh that was one reason I

started looking for other models I’m

very curious about this I mean it seems

very interesting because DMT has has

such a profound difference between its

its other other drugs I mean it and and

as you said I mean there there seems to

be a whole world a whole a content world

of material of interaction of something

I mean just to mean just to ask you

directly do you do you believe that we

could be maybe moving into an alternate

dimension as we ingest this compound I

think that’s obviously the most

important question or at least one of

the most important questions that’s

raised by the DMT experience are the

contents of the visions real or are they

just a hallucination and I just don’t

think we can not decide but I think we

need to keep our minds open to any and

all possibilities you know when I

concluded the first book on DMT the

spirit molecule I propose that perhaps

DMT changed the receiving

characteristics of the mind brain

complex and allowed us to perceive

normally in visible worlds like dark

matter or parallel universes you know so

it’s conceivable that one could develop

a camera let’s say that could peer into

dark matter take pictures in that and

compare perhaps the contents of dark

matter with the contents of the DMT

experience but even if you know that

were I impossible it’s quite a long ways

in the future and it might explain the

you know mechanisms you know by which we

could perceive usually invisible worlds

but it wouldn’t necessarily address you

know some of the larger questions like

why are things configured in doesn’t

matter you know why doesn’t giving DMT

because grow an extra you know knows or

you know something like that you know so

it seems that the your presence of DMT e

in the human body as a naturally

occurring compound and the effects of

DMT seem to indicate that there’s a your

reason for DMT you know being in the

human body which is to you know provide

access or a means of you know contacting

these normally you know imperceptible

worlds and comprehensible worlds you

know they could well you know um they

could you know I eat the experience or

you know the content of that state could

be you know simply

you know projection or a drug-induced

hallucination but that you know brings

meet you know to one of the other

features of the DMT state that led me

towards looking at the Hebrew Bible as a

good model and that is the unerring or

the unusual sense of reality that people

return with after experiencing a high

dose of DMT they you know feel as if the

experience what they perceived in a

state was as real or more real than

everyday reality and the Buddhist model

and even you know the other two models

that I brought to bear the you know

psychoanalytic and the yo

psychopharmacology models all three of

them proposed the basic and reality of

the DMT world so you know that was

another reason that I wasn’t quite you

know satisfied with you know the

Buddhist model well on the

latin-american shamanic model you know

proposes you know the reality of the of

the world’s one encounters on ayahuasca

which contains DMT but you know there

isn’t really much of a you know moral

your background which one could really

you know kind of rely on within Latin

American shamanism there’s a connection

I mean there’s all of these states I

mean if we’re go if we’re meditating

these out-of-body States near-death

experiences and I mean can you clarify

this for me if I mean is this true the

the myth that says that there is there’s

a sort of DMT release the moment of

death does I mean have we measured that

have we been able to analyze that is

that real is that a true thing no it

still is a it’s it you know still

occupies the position of vennard of an

urban

as there were uh you know I speculated

my you know DMT book that perhaps the

stress of the dying by a process might

be sufficient to increase the you know

natural production of DMT but we still

don’t know that I also speculate in the

book that the time of birth is also

associated with of you know with with

the increased production of DMT you know

but we don’t know that either you know

there is a study in Eastern Europe and

hungry which is being planned and you

know to look at concentrations of DMT in

the blood of the fetus end of the

umbilical cord at birth and the placenta

and you don’t also look at the

expression of the gene which is

responsible or yeah well um will the

expression of the gene responsible for

the enzyme that makes DMT in the

placenta as well yeah I think within a

year or you know so we will know you

know some more about if there is

increased production of DMT at the time

of birth you know there’s a group in ann

arbor michigan as well which is looking

at you know DMT in experimental death

you know giving animals a you know

killing stimulus as it were and you know

then you’re looking at the presence of

DMT in the brain and yes so far those

studies you haven’t you know come up

with anything definitive yet you know

but to the extent you know that the

birth process or the Orient the death

process shares any features with the DMT

experience it makes you know sense on

that there’s an underlying you know

common process to the extent that they

resemble each other

it’s interesting it’s it really is truly

interesting the whole the research that

you’ve done and and what’s come out of

it and and more so I think from a

cultural regard to you know the people

who are kind of ingesting this compound

coming back and with these reports of

meeting entities and and and

encountering this you know this other

space this other dimensional space it

it’s it’s fascinating it’s it truly it’s

remarkable that a this compound exists

and be that it exists in naturally

occurring in our bodies so I mean the

only thing that we’re doing drinking

ayahuasca is preventing the breakdown

from it breaking down in our stomach

while while we drink this tea right well

it’s a combination of factors uh because

ayahuasca contains DMT you know if he

just were taking the inhibitors of DMT

break down they wouldn’t give you an

ayahuasca experience it’s the

combination of the two plants one

contains DMT and the other will prevent

it’s your breakdown in the gut and allow

it to be orally active it’s you know

like an oral DMT experience all right it

is a ma it’s quite a bit slower last

longer one can work with the experience

to a lot greater extent that than you

can with a smoked or the injected form

would you be able to put it on a scale I

mean if there’s if an ayahuasca

experience is a for then then smoking

DMT maybe you know seven or an eight and

then intravenously would be a ten I mean

is there is there of variance in the

type of experience that you have when

you’re when you’re when you’re ingesting

it in different ways i think that with

DMT anyway it’s a pretty clear-cut

pharmacology

the amount in your blood determines the

intensity of the effect you know so if

you can you know get enough into your

bloodstream through smoking you know um

you know by way of the lungs into the

blood you know rather than directly into

the blood like injecting it I think the

smoked and the injected intensity you

know can be quite you know similar to

each other they can both get you on you

know to attend and I think also even

with I’m the even with ayahuasca if you

can attain the same levels in your blood

of DMT which would be attained with

smoking or injecting it you would have

the a comparable level of intensity the

problem with uh you know drinking that

much ayahuasca is the side effects from

the mao inhibitors the beta carbons

might just be too much you know to be

able to reach those kinds of levels but

but still you know I’ve heard or there’s

plenty of reports of people who drink

DMT who described experiences as intense

as Folsom as complicated articulated

comprehensive as anything one encounters

with a smoked or injected form yeah you

know I really want to address the

cultural stigma that is that is behind

and what what were you even talking

about right now because I mean what does

DMT scheduled as it’s a scalar schedule

one right so obviously there is there is

something happening here that that can

we can learn from and from my

understanding of a schedule 1 substance

there’s there’s no use or beneficial use

for a schedule 1 compound so I mean why

do you think I mean there’s we I mean

there seems to be this vast spiritual

learning that is that we’re capable of

by ingesting

compound and yet people are afraid

because it’s labeled a schedule 1

because because the government has

declared it illegal and people are

afraid to talk about it I mean when you

know when I post this episode it it’s

going to be labeled a draw episode and

it just that that stigma that cultural

idea bothers me and why do you think why

do you think that is occurring why do

you think that our society is still

plagued with this idea of not being able

to accept DMT as a resource yeah you

know a few years ago I there was a New

York psychiatrist named Gerald Clurman

who coined the phrase I a

pharmacological Calvinism and you know I

think there is you know some resistance

against or in response to experiencing

pleasure from drugs as opposed to

experiencing pleasure from hard work or

through religious grace or through your

family life you know so the whole you

know notion of you know pharmacological

Calvinism is you only use you know drugs

to cure illness well you don’t use them

to enhance wellness or creativity or for

spiritual benefits or even for

experiencing pleasure so I think it has

to do you know something with the

puritanical strain which exists in most

you know societies I think also you know

I also think that there are legitimate

concerns about keeping fees you know

drugs under your some your regulatory

you know short leash as it were I you

know they can be abused and they can be

dangerous either in the wrong hands are

taken by the wrong people you you don’t

need to be pretty stable hell

the prepared your supervise then you’ll

follow it up if you’re giving them you

need to know what you’re doing you know

so I think with the burgeoning of you

know clinical research you know human

studies which have taken place you know

since you know my study began or was

completed you know that you know that

you know well well that there is a a

rethinking of the placement of these you

know drugs into schedule one the three

criteria for putting a dragon to

schedule number one is that it can’t be

used safely even under medical

supervision and you know that’s not

turning out to be the case at all

because of all of these studies with

these drugs for therapy and for

understanding brain function and so on

on the other is that the you don’t have

got you know no known medical use but

that also you know doesn’t really hold

any water anymore because of all of the

you know positive studies that are

coming out with respect to you know the

treatment of OCD come you know the

treatment of autism post-traumatic

stress your substance abuse alcoholism

tobacco abuse you know depression those

kinds of things you know so the main

criterion which still remains is that

the drugs are highly abusable you know

so the criteria you know two of the

three criteria you know really aren’t in

effect anymore so I think there’s going

to you know need to be you know the

creation of a new schedule as much as

anything which acknowledges the abuse

ability of these drugs you know it amend

it acknowledges you know that you know

not everybody ought to be able to

prescribe them that you need to be

trained certified supervised and

administering them and you have to be

you know screened quite you know

carefully if you’re going to be taking

them and I don’t think that you know

necessarily is going to

keep them in the hands of the elite but

it would at least provide some it you

know it provides them oversight and you

know people are going to be taking

whatever drugs they want and you know

whatever circumstances you know that

they feel like butt and you know if you

could conceive of a new schedule where

these you know drugs could be taken for

any number of reasons for therapy for

spirituality for creativity and you know

in specialized you know centers let’s

say with specially trained individuals

it would it would provide an option you

know for the use of these drugs in a you

know wider arena that is currently the

case and it’s remarkable because at you

know in any in any corner at any corner

of any major city you could fight you

can buy alcohol you can buy cigarettes

alcohol turns people into complete

idiots and it’s just the most vile

substance available and yet it’s readily

available to anyone and everyone and I

mean it I just feel like the system is

so completely backwards and we’ve been

we’ve been so programmed and so

stigmatized by the quote war on drugs

which have in my opinion has been an

abject failure and and just and and

classifying people who who explore who

decide that they wish to explore these

compounds I mean let’s take ayahuasca

for example the people that I know who

drink ayahuasca have reported remarkable

changes in their lives they are

completely different people by drinking

this tea this combination of this maoi

and dmt and I mean how is that how is it

possible that someone can realize that

alcohol is a poison that they can move

into a healthy lifestyle that they can

change their work habits that they can

find new ideas I mean even

even Albert Creek the the guy who

visualized the DNA molecule admittedly

he was on he was micro dosing LSD at the

time that he visualized it right so so I

mean it’s it’s just it’s astounding to

me that we all this legislation is in

place and the system is is designed to

scare people away and and so easily are

our people kind of labeled drug addicts

drug users so outside of my rant just

you there’s there’s what is the

connection between the pineal gland and

dmt um well you know before we move into

the pineal you know maybe I could at

least make my standard pitch for the

value of um of Education others hearing

changed you know people’s hope you know

points of view you know like your show

and you know like what the you know the

advocacy organizations out there doing

you know CSP and maps and after and the

Beckley foundation you know they’re all

working you know hard to educate and

also you know they’re supporting

research you know so if you can educate

people about these drugs and you could

support research which demonstrates that

number you know the number one they’re

safe and number two you know can be

helpful in any number of you know

circumstances then I think you know that

the wheels will you know gradually you

know shift direction and they’ll be a

more you know open-minded approach but

still I don’t think you know wholesale

user or you know or more widespread

availability is especially going to be

helpful you know marijuana at least

house you know normally used is a mild

intoxicant so I think it’s widespread

availability isn’t going to cause the

kinds of your problems that might occur

if there were

for example the widespread availability

of LSD or DMT where anybody could just

you know go into a store you demonstrate

your legal agent buy it yeah you know so

it’s a you know nuanced a you know

situation are where you know case by

case you know there are scheduled one

drugs and their schedule and drugs you

know there’s heroin there’s marijuana

there’s LSD there’s damn tea you know

those are all scheduled on drugs but you

know well and you know k 2 is a Schedule

one drug you know so I think one needs

to be you know discriminating in you

know looking at each case well so the

pineal gland yeah it’s a very

interesting little organ in the middle

of the brain and I have speculated a

long time ago gosh 30 years plus now you

know that there was a relationship

between spiritual experiences which are

you felt to occur yes objectively in the

anatomical location of the pineal you

know which is you know just below the

the the you know fontanel that the you

know soft spot which occurs in infants

and then you know seals up is you grow

as you get older you know that’s always

been experienced as you know the

location subjectively of you know the

ultimate spiritual experience it’s also

the anatomic location of the pineal

gland you know so I you know proposed a

number of years ago that perhaps the

pineal gland at certain times produced

you know DMT which wouldn’t be eight the

you know psychedelic like your

properties of those spiritual

experiences and you know that had been

speculated about within the context of

esoteric and physiology is out there

like the chacras in Cibola on the Yosef

you wrote yeah you know so it was a

speculation which I included in my DMT

book and actually

three years ago you know the research

your group in Ann Arbor that I mentioned

was able you know to know to determine

that there you know was DMT in the

pineal gland of living rodents ah that’s

a paper that came out about three years

ago now you know so it is the case that

in certain situations you know DM key is

produced in the pineal you know but that

still you know shouldn’t overpower the

you know that what’s been known for

quite a long time since the 50s almost

or the early 60s is you know the DMT as

you made in the in the lung of well of

every mammal that’s been investigated to

date you know so it you could be you

know that the lung is responsible for

most of the DMT which is you know

circulating most of the time and that

the pineal may produce is you know DMT

only at specific yes at specific moments

that’s interesting I you know there is

it it’s interesting to me because I you

know I’ll take this little bit personal

here and and there’s there’s a there’s

an organization church that I belonged

to that uses ayahuasca as its sacrament

I’m not going to drop its name either

you know what I’m talking about or you

don’t I have had total 23 ayahuasca

experiences and um in it I’ve been

drinking the tea for about two years

it’s completely altered my being Who I

am it I am a completely different person

in a positive way I don’t drink I don’t

do drugs I there’s so many things so

many positive effects that I just stood

so what I what I really want to kind of

ask you about is the last in last the

most powerful

perience that i’ve i’ve ever had

drinking the tea there was there was a

point in which I I encountered an

intelligence it and it was I don’t know

how to describe it to you other than it

was just the most profound the most deep

I mean in an ayahuasca experience

there’s the ability to kind of move

around so you can choose what you decide

to look at and what you’re not looking

at and when I it felt as if I cross this

sort of barrier and the moment that I

did it was like it was like boom there

was there was this sort of massive

intelligence that just and it just said

we are here we’ve been here for

thousands of years for thousands of

generations we’ve we’ve influenced your

society I mean it it was almost like

having alien contact I know this sounds

the sounds were absurd but it was it was

the most powerful thing I’ve ever

experienced and is there any translation

that you can kind of offer well I think

that’s one of the advantages of the

Hebrew Bible to be honest it describes

things like that it describes a

experience which feels as real or more

real than anything else it describes

encounters with super powerful and

intelligent beings who are usually

invisible with whom we interact and who

influence our lives and our world and

history and biology in all manner of

ways and it also establishes a you know

a theological hierarchy and a moral

scaffolding that you can use in

interacting with these beings asking

them questions understanding their

answers and then bringing back that

information in a communicable way and

yeah yeah I mean there was there was

definitely an exchange of information

and I mean I don’t want to get too deep

into this just because it’s highly

personal for me but you know there there

was there was a there was a remarkable

feeling or profoundness that I felt

after the experience in which I felt

connected to all things and there was a

beauty there was a true sense of joy

just the wonder that I felt through that

experience and the interconnectedness

that I felt through just simply being

alive just simply being able to breathe

air that that renewed my sense of life

that renewed my sense of purpose and so

I mean and and if you look at if you

look at the state of ayahuasca tourism

and the people the people who are

failing there there’s Western medicine

is failing to cure mental these mental

diseases and you know which is why you

see organizations like maps and the

Hepner institute and the Beckley

foundation which are creating doors for

us to move through so that we can heal

PTSD and these these psychological

disorders that have plagued our Western

culture stigmatized society for

generations now well you know you’re

speaking about you know the good effects

of you know psychedelics and in this

particular case ayahuasca you know but I

think it’s important that one you know

not gild the lily as it were these you

know drugs can’t be misused by either

people taking them or people giving them

you know Albert Hofmann was a Swiss

German who discovered or invented LSD

and one of his best friends was a German

soul was a you know former German

soldier who served in world war one

named Ernst younger who was a poster

child for you know the Nazis and

and even though he’s passed away

continues to be an inspiration for any

number of you know neo-nazi groups

annual albert hofmann and nursing

younger used to take LSD together um you

know several times and you know you kind

of wonder what they thought about or

talked about or you know hatched in the

process and I’ve seen people become

you’re horribly sadistic and abusive who

take psychedelics and I’ve seen people

you know give you know psychedelics to

mess with people you know so I I think

your experiences and you know those of

the you know research subjects who are

experiencing benefit you know they’d be

speak the importance of you know set in

setting the you know the intention and

the background of the you know people

taking the drugs and the physical

environment and your the set of you know

those giving them you know they’re you

know desires and intense for it you know

you know forgiving you know the

medications is it to heal or is it a

harm is it for therapy is it to have you

know sex with somebody you know so you

know I like to think of these you know

drugs as tools and very strong tools you

know like you don’t nuclear power you

know way you know it can you know

produce electricity to power a hospital

or it can you know blow up you know a

big you know city and kill hundreds of

thousands of people yes so I i think you

know these are very powerful drugs which

both can be extremely useful but also

can be just as destructive if there if

father misapplied yeah absolutely and I

you know I really think you know I agree

with you it there there should be a

cautionary note for you know anyone and

I

I have heard stories about these these

people who are you know on on this sort

of sexual conquest while you know

they’re they’re handing out psychedelics

which is just horrible but essentially I

think we the people who are studying

these compounds and truly believe in

them i think we are explorers and i

think essentially we are looking for

answers we were trying to find we’re

looking to answers of life’s mystery and

I think the one of the most intriguing

compounds on the planet happens to be

DMT and you know there there there is

this sort of sense of knowledge that

that comes from from ingesting this

compound well we clearly are more open

to the reception of you know novel

information you know novel perceptions

so yeah I think we need to be able to

you know determine to be able to you

know tell if what we’re learning seeing

feeling is helpful or true or not you

know so I think it’s good to have some

benchmarks that we can use in

determining lets you say the

friendliness or the you know

unfriendliness of the beings that we’re

encountering you know the validity or

the utility of what they’re telling us

they’re not telling us so that’s why I

think it’s good to have some benchmarks

and if we’re looking at these drugs as

aiding spiritual development then it’s

good to have some spiritual benchmarks

with which to kind of compare and

contrast and judge you know the merit of

the things that were being exposed to

any that could be Buddhism it could be

Judaism it could be Islam it could be

Hinduism you know a Christianity any

number of things but you know it needs

to be a why does it have to be

associated with any religion

I mean I don’t understand that that’s

what I mean that’s what I don’t I don’t

really understand why it went from DMT

the spirit molecule to DMP the soul

prophecy and and suddenly I mean it

seems like religion to me is is a very

large problem here on this planet and I

mean and suddenly you’re it seems like

dr. Osmond if I can be you know

completely direct and honest and

radically kind of forward with you is

you you seem to go from you know this

this this open state where you were

exploring to this structured state of ok

I’m going to connect this to Judy

Judaism why why did you why did you

decide to do that well there’s a couple

of answers I or responses I guess to you

know in a way I think I’ve expanded the

conversation enormously you know rather

than shrunk it my initial approach was

the purely scientific model the brain on

drugs or you know Freudian you know

psychoanalytic psychology the clinical

research model so by you know taking it

out of those particular frameworks into

the more spiritual you know it’s called

this I mean I coined the phrase spirit

molecule what does spirit actually mean

that means spirit can mean things which

are you know normally invisible but I

think spirit or spiritual can also point

to the highest qualities of the human

being that you know the highest concepts

the highest emotions the highest work

the highest prayer all those things you

know so I think rather way no it’s

interesting when my book first came out

the DMT book actually you know in you

know 2001 I there was a book review in

on in a deep in a

defunct magazine called shaman’s drum

and the reviewer you know said it

shouldn’t be called the spirit molecule

it should be called the dream molecule

which you know I kind of you know took

umbrage with because I felt it was more

of a spiritual kind of experience but I

think in your retrospect you know um um

that the reviewer it was onto something

because I was still working within the

brain only model and even with my theory

about dark matter and parallel universes

it was still sort of you know you know

bottom-up approach like our brain

changes and then is able to you perceive

things and that’s just you know how it

is yes so I’ve you know taken it from a

more bottom up approach to a more you

know top-down approach that the

spiritual you know world is real and it

influences us and we can be more

receptive to it if our brain chemistry

is changed which then kind of takes you

into the territory of well you know how

do you optimize that as well as you know

trying to understand some you know

mechanisms you know by which um you know

by which new that could happen so the in

a way of optimizing it is by looking

toward systems of thought which have

also addressed spiritual questions you

know things which aren’t you know um

which are not you know normally visible

and which influence our everyday life

behind the scenes as it were you know

that were able to make you know contact

with every so often through the altered

states which are you know made available

you know to us through either drugs or

prayer

fasting those kinds of things you know

so I think it’s you know um when you

were talking about religion being a

problem I think it’s really important to

distinguish between two different kinds

of religion and you know there’s you

know one religion or one you know

definition of I’m of religion which

Spinoza and I you know call a

superstition you know the religion of

the masses which is what is imposed on

the masses by the clerics who demand or

you know who are interested in power and

money and you know that is the more kind

of you know superstitious religion which

mostly has been created and is you know

sustained as a means of you know

political control you know the other

religion though is you know is what I

know they used to call you know the

religion of the elite and one comes to

the religion of the elite or an adult

religion or amateur religion you know

through the observation of nature

through you know understanding and

probing into the nature of reality and

then being you know being a puzzled by

and looking you know for or you know

some answers to the questions that come

as a result of a careful investigation

of both you know nature which includes

us our mind and and our human

relationships and you know the well the

medievalists used to prescribe a you

know course of study which was you know

necessary before one could actually

begin to study religion you know things

like first really being able to you know

to master mathematics and grammar in

physics natural science astronomy you

know philosophy those kinds of

things you know those were the

requirements to be able to then begin

exploring you know the mysteries which

would be you know revealed you know

through religious and spiritual study

and you know that clearly isn’t the kind

of religion than most people you know

think of but you know that’s the kind of

religion that I think one ought to you

know consider when attempting to make in

a sense of and integrate the you know

full you know spectrum of the spiritual

you know your perceptions and ideas

which you come to us as a result of a

big you know psychedelic experience yeah

I understand and you know just just to

to wrap that that segment up I just I

can’t believe I’m doing this what I’m

going to just to quote Karl Marx a

religion is the sigh of the oppressed

creature the heart of a heartless world

and the soul of Solace conditions it is

the opium of the people and that that

quote is floated around for a while I

mean people call it the opiate of the

masses but I think I understand the

difference of what you’re saying I think

there’s and I agree you know and I’ve

read Spinoza enough to know you know the

difference between okay there’s a

religion that that is designed to to

control and oppress human beings to

control them it is the opiate of the

masses as mr. Marx kind of tells us and

there’s a there’s another which I would

I would regard as more esoteric as more

occult more hidden and that is designed

to kind of bring us into the spiritually

aware States and that is designed to

better our lives and in a way that were

not indoctrinated uh right and I think

you know um when it comes to you know

looking at spiritual you know texts you

know it isn’t like you there a cookbook

or a John Grisham novel you know they

can

take you know years uh to crack like you

know for example you know the book of

Genesis which I’ve been you know reading

real carefully you know it took me like

a year to read the book of Genesis and

really understand what it was you know

trying to say you know like it isn’t

that the universe was created in you

know 100 and whatever you know 68 hours

but that there were stages in the

evolution of the universe from the Big

Bang up to the present day you know

seven stages and you know that’s a

special number special way of dividing

you know things you know so you really

you know need a scorecard or a you know

I’m a program a number of programs to be

able to you know tell what is actually

you know being described and I guess

that’s what you’re talking about with

the esoteric model you know that you

really need to be able to you know dig

below the surface of the text and the

words to understand which uh what’s you

know being said yeah certainly and you

know which is you know one of the points

that I like to make in my new book the

soil prophecy is you know that you know

the text at least in the case of the

Hebrew Bible is a prophetic text which

was transmitted received in a prophetic

state of consciousness which I think I

you know demonstrate pretty convincingly

you shares a lot of you know features

you know with the dmt state you know so

if that’s the case you know then the

closer that you are to being in a

prophetic state the more the text can

you know resonate with your own mind and

you can understand deeper layers you

know so that’s you know one of the I’m

sure bound to be controversial you know

suggestions that you know kind of grows

out of my book is if

if you are in a slightly altered state

brought about by the psychedelics which

overlaps or you share some you know

features with a prophetic state you know

then the text begins to make you know

more sense than it normally would so dr.

stress- also try it you don the next

time go ahead well the next time you’re

drinking ayahuasca uh and you can get

home and you’re still kind of altered

you know open up your king james bible

and you know read the first couple of

chapters of you know genesis and you

know see if it makes any more sense than

it you did before I’ll keep that in mind

I mean um dr. strassman we’re

approaching or right at the end here and

you know I just want to ask you this one

last question I your your what you’re 64

65 years old now 64 okay so you’re 64

years old you I think I think your

research has is I mean you’ve defined

your legacy the dmt the spirit molecule

is known by anyone who who is studying

these compounds is there has there been

any point in your career in your life

and and i’m sure you’ll you have a long

life ahead of you but i mean is is there

anything that you kind of would go back

and change go back and alter go back and

you know just just make different is

there anything that you would tell your

younger self while you were researching

these compounds anything different well

man I’ll tell you I think I I think I

was always at the you know the edge of

my capacities um yeah you know I was

thinking well you know maybe I could

have had more psychotherapy oh and we

found enough help me make some better

decisions oh man earlier it may have

helped me make some you know better

decisions about staff or about the exact

grants that I wrote but uh you know I

think I was operating on you know I have

you know maximal horsepower every

cylinder has been firing pretty much for

most of my life I don’t think I could

have done anything different you know if

I were a different person let’s say my

parents were different or I grew up in a

different place or encounter different

people in my life then I may have done

things differently but uh f you know it

also may have been the case that i never

got interested in this field so i think

all things taken into account uh you

know I think I’ve really met I’ve you

know really optimized my gifts and my

good luck fair enough sir fair enough i

appreciate appreciate the answer dr.

strassman where can where can people

find your work where can they get to

your website

yeah you know if anybody’s interested in

contacting me you’re buying books from

me directly which else and subscribe

I’ve been sign they can get in contact

with me you see my public appearances

any planned events at Rick Strassman

calm yeah or you can just you know

google my name and my web site comes up

uh you know quite readily yeah okay

we’ll definitely make that available for

people alright guys this is another

episode of the human experience thank

you guys so much for listening dr.

Strassman thank you so much for being

here sir I really appreciate your work

in your time we will see you guys next

week

you