welcome to the human experience podcast
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you on a journey we are there was just
two guys that looked at me like I was a
big pork chop that had just landed on
their plate and they said they said to
me in Spanish they said are you here
alone and unarmed there was about five
years of my life where I didn’t have an
address and was just get getting around
the American West and going down into
Mexico by various different means lived
in my car a lot prevailed on the
hospitality of strangers a lot I spent
quite a lot of my life in dangerous
situations wasn’t exactly a plan of mine
but I remember everything I got assigned
by a magazine cover Snoop Dogg’s murder
trial in LA this was what back there I
guess and at perform kind of a sales act
on my girlfriend I said listen I know
this sounds crazy but I think we need to
leave the throbbing heart of downtown
Manhattan and we have to Pluto
Mississippi population seven for the
forty minute driver in the nearest
grocery store in a state where you’ve
never been before
and if heard many bad things about and I
remember one time getting I basically
got forced into doing a bunch of cocaine
with three police officers in the inner
in a cantina and they were trying to
sell me drugs they thought whatever if a
cleaner is down here in the sierra madre
he must be here to buy a drug so these
but for me it was him it worked really
well i was very happy in my 20s and 30s
just as a restless rootless wandering
male without any obligations i never had
any money it was always flat broke but i
had a lot of personal freedom and that
was my goal in life and so i was
satisfied
what’s up folks Xavier katana here and
you are listening to the human
experience podcast our guest for today
is mr. Richard grant Richard is a
journalist and author whose interest in
exploration and wandering has taken him
on a number of riveting travel
adventures this was a phenomenal episode
to do Richard has traveled like I said
extensively all through the United
States and we covered some of the
stories that he had to share American
nomads is the book and you are going to
love this episode here is mr. Richard
grant
[Music]the human experiences in session my
guest for today is mr. Richard grant
Richard it’s a pleasure to have you here
sir welcome to hxp
than to be here Richard I I’ve fallen in
love with your work I know you’ve
written a bunch of books but for the
people that don’t know who you are can
you just give us a short brief
introduction to what you do please well
I’m a journalist and an author and a
very occasional documentary film
presenter I made a documentary for the
BBC called American nomads which was
about all the different nomadic
subcultures in North America past and
present I’m done another another few TV
things but mainly I write books and
magazine stories yeah that’s that’s how
I found you is by watching your
documentary and then I got into your
book and it’s such an amazing writing
style I mean you you certainly have a
way with the pen I mean it is it is a
sword or something there for you well
it’s it’s been my sole source of
sustenance for the last 25 years so you
know a right to eat yeah I mean so we’re
talking about nomads today I mean how do
we define what a nomad is well for me
and nomad is someone who doesn’t feel
stable when they’re stationary they feel
a sense of stability and comfort when
they’re moving when they’re on a journey
and that could apply to you know some
guy in Africa herding goats on foot that
could apply to a hobo riding a freight
train across America right now that
could apply to somebody following her to
cattle on a horse nomads have a
different understanding of what a
destination is a destination is just a
pause in the journey in every arrive in
a place with the same mindset as
somebody who’s no
no man that don’t attach much importance
to the idea of home but the road is is
the home and I would also say that
nomads have a particular idea about what
freedom is you know we talk a lot about
freedom in in this country and we think
it has to do with you know liberal
democracy the right to vote the rule of
law or that kind of stuff but nomads
have a completely different idea of what
freedom is for nomads freedom is all to
do with mobility and open space and the
ability to travel unfettered and often
uncovered nomads do not tend to get on
well with government and I was while I
was researching for this conversation I
read an article about how 99% of our
history has been lived as nomads it’s
only in the last 1% of the time that
we’ve been here on this planet that
we’ve developed this idea of one place
the sedentary sort of lifestyle as you
say I mean how do you feel this has
changed over time why do you think this
has changed over time so much well you
really got to look at the the invention
of Agriculture I mean I forget the exact
numbers but you know for the as you say
for the great majority of human history
we were kind of wandering unto gatherers
you know we’d hold up in a cave here but
you know if the game moved on we’d
follow the game that we needed to
survive and then once once agriculture
was invented I think that was 9,000
years ago but I’m not certain about that
you know then there was a then there was
a good reason to stay put your food was
stationary it wasn’t wandering away on
the hoof and really sedentary society
grew out of agriculture then you also
what you had at this after we’d
domesticated crops we domesticated
animals and then you had what’s called
pastoral nomadism is in that term you
know there would be people who take the
sheep and the cattle and the goats out
to gray
and some of them as people would just
stop coming back to the to the village
they would just become full tat
full-time nomads with the livestock so
that was another form of nomadism
you know some people say that we’re
hardwired for it I don’t I don’t know
whether that’s true or not but it’s
certainly an argument that people may
hate that we’re wired to be nomads and
that sedentary living is a recent
experiment and it’s caused a lot of our
social problems I’m not sure whether I
go along with that I’m least willing to
listen to that argument hmm Richard let
me just I just want to check I’m getting
some dropped dropped samples let me just
make sure that the recording sounds good
just I’m gonna pause it right there okay
on one second and so you talked about
this it’s ingrained somewhere in our DNA
that we are meant to be you know nomadic
right I mean that’s that’s that’s an
argument that you know a lot of people
have made that since we did spend so
much of our evolutionary development on
the move that it’s kind of encoded in us
that desire to move and explore and see
what’s over the horizon that’s obviously
you know how the world got people out of
Africa was that desire to of people to
move on and experience new landscapes
and a lot of it just a lot of it
historically just came came down to
following animals that were trying to
get away from this yeah I mean you wrote
an essay for Eon where you talked about
the conflicts between nomads and this
sedentary and and how this this conflict
has played out on almost every continent
why do you think the quote civilized
have one where you know we’re in this
fixed position where we live
okay so let’s just think about this
y-you know this conflict between between
farmers and nomads between city dwellers
and nomads as crops up on like you say
every continent except Antarctica which
is more or less a uninhabited and it has
it has to do with conflicting
philosophies of land use
you know nomads want land to be theirs
there to be crossed you know grazing is
there to be reached whereas the farmers
and civilized people they like fences
they like roads they like taxes they
like boundaries they’re like rectangles
civilization comes over the land in a
kind of a grid work you know people our
buildings have corners nomads prefer
yurts and teepees around and that don’t
have any corners and prefer brown shapes
and they want land to be smooth and to
be able to be crossed easily that’s the
root of the conflict I think the reason
why nomads have lost this conflict is
that civilization has proved more
effective at generating technologies at
generating large populations and nomads
have to live in balance with the natural
environment if they start overloading it
the resource runs out that you know
there’s no more grass for the livestock
or you know you over hunt the meat if
you get too many people there’s nothing
to eat the nomads live living kind of a
lean balance with the natural
environment where a civilization found a
way to increase its numbers you know
through living in cities through
practicing agriculture and and the other
big thing is is literacy but most nomads
in human history have not been literate
and literacy as a way of storing
knowledge is a much more effective
system than oral history so that gave
you know so the civilize had greater
numbers they had more technologically
advanced armies and they had this system
of knowledge to draw on you know you
mentioned technology and I think this is
an important part of it I mean it it
seems that technology has helped us in
many
but in other ways it’s really hindered
our progress I mean we with the advent
of social media we’re so trapped on our
phones it feels like this auspicious
sort of way we are trapped in in this
idea of using our cellphones to connect
with others in this good-hearted way but
essentially we’re not doing that in real
life we’re not connecting with people by
looking at their face we’re connecting
with them through Facebook updates and
retweets and likes and you know so it’s
frustrating yeah I mean when when
digital technology arrived and anyone
that criticized it was called a Luddite
I don’t think if you if you criticize
social media and smart phones now you
get called a Luddite because I think
awareness is now grown that this is this
is a major it’s food it’s made us more
connected but those connections have
become less valuable and less satisfying
what is the biggest nomadic group in the
20th first century America numeric play
the largest group of nomads that you’re
looking at in America today would be
retirees living in motor homes I think
there’s a last last I checked there was
a quarter million of them and a lot of
them have sold their houses and put the
money in their motor home and they’ve
just live on the road here and maybe
stop in and visit the grandkids but I
found it really fascinating subculture
partly because I’m from Europe where
grandparents do not do that they do not
sell their houses and take to the road I
think it’s a sort of manifestation of
that wanderlust in the in the American
tradition and they tend to travel in in
in in clubs or groups or herds you could
say and I remember seeing them in the
Arizona desert in the winter as a big
congregation of him at a place called
quartzite Arizona and they were circling
their motorhomes like like like covered
wagons on the Prairie and in the 1860s
they’d have a Kemp four-hour in the
middle of the motorhomes and they would
get together and kind of drink cocktails
and
tell stories and very happy people on
the whole it seemed to seem to be a very
satisfying way of living to them why is
there why is there this idea of the Old
West why does that appear in their
lifestyle I mean I think it’s crossing
the same landscape I think the idea of
nomadic freedom is you know which is the
thing that they’re after is was it was a
big feature of the old wait I mean both
cowboys and Indians were both horse
nomads so I think I think they feel a
part of that that nomadic tradition that
was such a big part of things in the in
the Old West
hmm a new city you know and their
t-shirts that have sort of herds of
Buffalo or wild horses or symbols of
freedom and mobility you know I want to
know why there is this sort of
resurgence I’m not sure if you’ve heard
of this trend that’s what’s happening on
social media it’s called van life we
heard of this I mean I’ve heard of it
I’m no expert on it but tell me more
it’s I mean it’s this romanticized
version of living in this really small
van most of the pictures on Instagram
show you know this really hot girl with
this guy
it sees ABS I mean it’s it’s nothing
like what you would expect someone
living out of their van would be
whatsoever so I mean I mean is there an
element of fakery to it at least on the
Instagram purposes yeah I think yeah
there is I mean I hate to say it but
yeah it seems like a lot of it is
orchestrated for that picture yeah
they’re not showing the parts where you
have to pee in a bottle or in a poop in
the woods they’re not they’re not
displaying that part of it I mean
there’s a grimy aspect to living out of
your car but why do you think there is
this romantic notion this idea of
freedom aspect of being on the road I
mean I think there is a genuine aspect
to freedom there and I think there’s
also you know it’s it’s it’s culturally
imprinted on us as Americans you know
through Jack Kerouac and Jack London
Road movies and you know there’s this
there’s this alternative to the to the
rat race that exists in America that you
you know people people dream of living
on the road getting out into the wide
open spaces it’s it’s the kind of the
other American dream isn’t it there’s
there’s the American dream with the
white picket fence and the two kids and
sending them off to college and
bettering that bettering the family over
the generations but there’s also a kind
of subversive American dream which is
you know burn down the house and saddle
up the horse and get out on the road
yeah I mean it I mean now in today’s
culture it seems like you know you’re
working your nine-to-five by the time
that you you get home you’re so
exhausted all you can do is watch TV you
know maybe you throw something into the
microwave it’s a dreary lifestyle and I
think now with this this idea of living
in your van at least you’ve paid or
you’re paying off something that you own
it’s not being flushed away with rent
and I think more people are are starting
to identify that the system is flawed
the current system is flawed well it’s
just not very successful in producing
satisfaction happiness the
parents system so people look for
alternatives and we know even the idea
of living in your van sure it’s grimy
and you have to subpoena maudlin and in
it I know because I’ve done it but you
have a measure of freedom it’s not
complete freedom but it’s more freedom
than most people have and you have
independence and you’ve got a feeling of
adventure in your lives which if the
nine-to-five version does not provide a
venture right you know unless you let’s
see get into weird drugs how long did
you spend sort of traveling and driving
around wandering around there was about
five years of my life where I didn’t
have an address and was just get getting
around the American West and going down
into Mexico by various different means
lived in my car a lot prevailed on the
hospitality of strangers a lot and then
it finally became inconvenient as I was
starting to I started to write stories
for the magazines and I needed a bank to
catch the checks to get a bank account
I needed an address so I rented a little
$300 a month kind of cottage thing in
Tucson Arizona and I used that as a as a
base but I basically you know I wasn’t
there I think in for the next ten years
I never spent more than three
consecutive weeks at home why I was I
would go home I would write story and
then I would get back in my vehicle and
go off to there you know what’s always
for story sometimes it was for let’s
gonna have a look at Montana or I wonder
how so-and-so is doing in San Francisco
it was just very restless in that phase
in my life still and you know but I’m
trying to settle down now
is there a location that that drew you
to it that maybe you found yourself
going back to more than once I’m in lots
of
lots of different locations go back to
you I mean I’m living now in Mississippi
which is kind of an odd place for a guy
from London England to end up but I’ve
already think Mississippi is kind of one
of the best-kept secrets in America as
this reputation was just being backwards
and stuck in there you know stuck in the
past and nothing much going on but I’ve
always had a I’ve always had a really
good time in Mississippi that somewhere
I’ve always come back to in the
southwest I lived I sort of based myself
in the Southwest for a long time
Montana I’d go back to a lot I lived in
I lived in New York before I moved to
Mississippi and you know I Love New York
I’m just I just don’t have enough money
to live there yeah was there anywhere
that or any time in which you felt like
this is a dangerous situation that I’m
in right now
I spent quite a lot of my life in
dangerous situations wasn’t exactly a
plan of mine but I remember I was I got
assigned by a magazine to cover Snoop
Dogg’s murder trial in LA this was
brought back like in the nineties I
guess and so I went down into his into
his neighborhood in Long Beach you know
the sort of bottom of South Central Air
and I just started asking around you
know what did people think of snoop in
the trial then I found out that there
was all these young guys who were trying
to get out of their gangs and into the
rap business and I ended up writing a
story about those guys and spending
about four weeks riding around up South
Central LA with these gangsters who were
trying to become rappers so that was you
know there was obviously moments of
danger there but nothing happened you
know people kept telling me how
dangerous it was in South Central and
you know I saw some edgy moments but it
was it was okay and so then what happens
is you build up this probably full sense
of confidence you know that I went to I
did stories in Haiti people said oh
Haiti’s like really dangerous you know
went to Haiti nothing bad happen
I found it really fascinating I went to
cover the Zapatista uprising in southern
Mexico whereas at all you know don’t go
it’s too dangerous I went you know
nothing bad happened so you start so you
start to when people warned you about
going to dangerous places you start to
take their not take their warnings as
seriously as you might because you’ve
been in all these places that people
have said oh my god don’t go there right
but then I was living in southern
Arizona and I started hearing stories
about the Sierra Madre Mountains in
northern Mexico and what you’ve what
you’ve gotten Sierra Madre is just kind
of Wild West that sits on America’s back
doorstep you can drive down to the
border you can see this mountain range
filling up the southern skyline and the
mountains could go on for 900 miles
they’re about 70 miles wide there’s only
two paved roads there’s four canyons
deeper than the Grand Canyon there are
still Native American tribes living in
caves and hunting with bows and arrows
there are still people prospecting for
gold with mules you know I’m talking
about in the 21st century but the
economy of the Sierra Madre is growing
drugs and it’s a very violent lawless
place and everyone kept telling me well
you can’t go up there it’s too dangerous
but because I had built up this sense of
confidence I decided to go into the
Sierra Madre and try and travel the
length to these mountains and write a
book about it and it turned out to be
you know very dangerous indeed in what
sense was it dangerous
traveling was difficult because when
where there’s no law you know that when
there were some there were the
occasional police officers but they were
all working for the drug cartels and a
member one time getting I basically got
forced into doing a bunch of cocaine
with three police officers in it in it
in a cantina and they were trying to
sell me drugs they thought well if a
green noise down here in the sierra
madre he must be here to buy a drug so
these three cops kept chopping out lines
of cocaine and pretty much forcing me to
snort them then telling me that they
could get me great weed they could get
me good cocaine straight from Colombia
come in on a small plane I mean that’s
that’s kind of how that was the extent
of all so what happens were in lawless
places is that the people have to vouch
for you with their life essentially I
mean I got to know people at the
northern end of the mountains and they
basically vouched for me I said look
this guy I vouch for him with my life he
doesn’t work for the DEA he’s not gonna
cause any problems and they would kind
of they would kind of passed me down to
the to the next Valley to the next
village and I would have a name of
somebody to look up to I would be
physically brought into the next village
and they’d say okay here’s this guy I
take care of him he’s okay but a lot of
it was just the social instability
because these were these had been just
poor cattle ranchers farmers there was
no electricity in a lot of these
villages but they had money from drugs
and the thing that they chose to spend
their money on was cocaine alcohol an
ak-47 that made for very volatile social
mix that’s fascinating man I loved it I
mean in cocaine the cell of a truck I
know also that the you know that the
kind of Mexican machismo is particularly
strong in that part of Mexico up in
those mountains so you got you got much
she smile you’ve got like a river of
booze you got cocaine in and everybody’s
armed we
aka 47s so things can things can go
wrong in a hurry yeah for sure several
times I just had to sort of scranton out
and hide and then so yeah I was talking
about my system of travel here it’s all
personal introduction uh-huh and it was
working quite well for me I’ve got about
two-thirds of the way down through the
mountain range and just meaning my
notebooks were just filling up with what
I thought was really fascinating
material and then my kind of chain of
human connections were ran out and I
came out of the mountains into the city
of Durango and I saw an advert for this
new tourist resort that was up in the
mountains it said it said there were
cabins there were horses that were
swimming and I thought to myself well
I’ll go up to this place which is
obviously it’s safe to go as a tourist
and then I’ll make some friends there
and somebody will pass me down the
mountain range to their cousin or
introduce me to someone in the next
Valley but I went up there and there was
no tourist resort there was just two
guys that looked at me like I was a big
pork chop that had just landed on their
plate and they said they said to me in
Spanish they said are you here alone and
unarmed and Iona and I said yes like why
on earth do you be here alone and
unarmed and I said because you know I’m
no I’m no threat to anybody I said well
what is there to be afraid of and that
the guy says to me I kill to police the
trigger finger I was like oh no I’m in
it now then he shook out some cocaine
onto the palm of his hand and just
gulped it down and chased it down with a
beer anyway it was it was kind of a it
was a long story in a long night but
they ended up if you’d if you seen that
movie no country for old measure yeah
you remember the scene where the two big
trucks are chasing the guy for free yeah
that was me they’re chasing me in two
trucks through these mountains at night
I was just never been so terrified in my
life and I I learnt something about fear
that I never particularly wanted to know
in the first
place but my body was functioning at its
absolute peak I was just never felt so
alert and athletic and terrified at the
same time I kind of I was it made me
think of the way you know it like a like
a deer that no knows it’s been hunted
can execute these extraordinarily
graceful bounds and achieve great speeds
that was me I was there I was at hunted
deer with these two trucks after me but
so yeah very very frightening night and
I was in a pickup truck they built a
fire next to my truck and they stayed up
most of the night and then eventually
they passed out in their blankets and I
had to sneak in the next morning and
jump in my truck and turn on the
ignition and kind of peel out of there
and that was that was I’ve never been
back to those mountains since I got out
and have never been back since I did get
a book out of it called God’s middle
finger yeah yeah that’s great I mean
there’s something amazing about the
currency of a story and not having to
hold up your phone and press the button
to create a memory you know like
actually being able to relay this
experience that you have and and
remembering it well it was a very vivid
experience let me tell you and I also I
mean I’m in that you know I write for a
living so I’m in the habit of carrying
around a notebook with me and you know
anyone that anyone you know travels in
order to learn and experience the world
I mean I would I would recommend that
the little fashion notebook I’m and I
take some photographs as well but to
record you know conversations that you
had to record how you felt about things
at the time you were there a notebook is
actually a very very good tool for that
tool for that we are going to take a
small break for a message from our
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sleep calm slash ejects be one of the
people that you met that really touched
a soft spot in my heart was come free
and he was the Train traveler right yeah
count free rides the freight trains oh
I’m not sure he’s doing anymore no
there’s this whole new generation of
kind of sort of punky vagabond kids that
are riding around on the freight trains
and he was he was one of the US when he
was she just turned out eighteen had
kind of a tough home life like a lot of
them and he was out on the rails and
trying to protect himself trying to be
tough but just a sweet sweet smart kid
at the same time he was he was B
receives very touching I’m still still
in intermittent contact with him
yeah he’s uh he’s last I heard he was he
was cowboying in Montana and doing some
kind of environmental activism
protesting the Bison slaughter that
happens outside Yellowstone every year
do you think there’s a certain time in
your life where you you want to travel
and learn as much as you can and maybe
as you get older you’re like oh well you
know I’m gonna chill out now maybe have
some kids I mean that’s how I did it
I think there’s a lot of maybe more
pressure now on young people to get
started on their career and start paying
back their student loans and whatever
else but you know I emerge from college
without any student loans and without
any clear idea of what I will need to do
or you know who I wanted to be you know
I went to I grew up mainly in London
England I knew I didn’t want to live in
England and I knew I didn’t want to work
in an office and I knew I wanted to see
the world or do some traveling so you
know that the travel came first and then
I started writing stories about some of
the things I was encountering and then I
started selling some of their stories to
magazines and became this kind of roving
freelance journalist you know frankly
you know I’ve met lots of I’ve met lots
of women that do it too but it is easier
if you’re male you do have like less
less to worry about than if you’re
female but for me it was it worked
really well I was very happy in my
twenties and thirties just as the
Restless rootless wandering male without
any obligations I never had any money I
was always flat broke
but I had a lot of personal freedom and
that was my goal in life and so I was
satisfied and you know now I’m now I’m
uh I’m gonna be 55 next month and I have
a three-year-old daughter I know and a
wife and a mortgage and so I left it
late but it’s been hard the transition
when you’re used to when you’re used to
that much freedom in your life and
suddenly if you’ve got a wife and a kid
and a mortgage
and an uncertain income stream sure I
find it difficult to adjust I mean
that’ll change the narrative for you
right absolutely yeah
no I mean having a having a young child
change Mina changes everything
you know what did you do before you got
married what did you do if you fell in
love on the road did you stay there with
them or was it like a goodbye type
scenario um different strategies I had
you know had some girlfriends who were
who were very understanding and I would
be gone and I would come back to them
and I would spend some time with him
when I would go and come back go and
come back those were those were so
long-term relationships I had this weird
phase of my life where women hurry
engaged wanted to have one last fling
with me it happened like five or six
times women are about to get married and
settle down just woman one more you know
one more brief romance I’ve noticed that
what happen I don’t know I was I was I
was I was that guy for a while huh
I mean that’s fascinating every night I
find that really interesting that that
will occur I mean have you traveled
outside the states and I know you were
in Africa for a little while yeah I’ve
spent quite reveled quite extensively in
Africa I’ve been over there eight eight
or nine times in western South Africa
and a lot in East Africa and Kenya and
Tanzania and Burundi and Rwanda and
Congo and several other countries was it
different was the the environment
different or I mean did you did you feel
that being nomadic was different when
you were in Africa well the thing I’m
I’d say about Africa is that the first
few times that I went there it was it
was magazine stories and I was you know
I was met at the airport sort of taken
away and in a Land Rover – some lovely
Bush camp maybe just a tent but I was
always looked after and protected and a
lot of those were kind of Safari type
thing
you know I did I did a story about a guy
that was trying to Train captive Lions
to get back into the wild I did I did a
dugout canoe trip down the Zambezi River
that was my first trip and I was really
scared of things like crocodiles and
hippos and but it turned out to be you
know a fantastic trip that I that I
loved and that that was kind of what
kept me going back to Africa then if I
think that my fifth or sixth trip to
Africa I decided I wanted to make the
first descent of this river in Tanzania
called the Malagasy which means his
river of bad spirits because I love
floating down rivers and I found out
there was a river that no one had ever
gone down in a boat before and I thought
well I’ll be that guy and write a book
about it and have it have a have an
adventure you know and but to get to the
river you know I had to I had to kind of
get there under my own steam there was
no one to meet at the airport and I was
traveling on the bus and I was trying to
find my own my own accommodations and I
realized that on those previous trips
I’ve been inside the safari bubble but I
hadn’t really been in Africa a proper
I’d just been in this Safari bubble
where people were looking after me the
whole time and once he once you step out
of that Safari bubble into the rest of
Africa it seems it seems really
different I mean it’s a difficult place
to travel I mean a lot of it it’s just
the heat you know why is it called the
river of bad spirit you know what I
never found out that why it was called
that nobody nobody seemed to know hmm
okay we said we certainly had some bad
experiences in the river is it like a
cursed River or something I’m assuming
that that’s what it would it would it
meant that there was bad spirits on the
river huh interesting I mean you wrote
you’ve wrote a bunch I mean you wrote
dispatches from Pluto where it covers
your decision to move from New York City
to Mississippi the Mississippi Delta as
you were saying what were you feeling
when you moved from New York why’d you
leave New York
so the plan
with my my girlfriend Mariah who’s now
my wife we for the first time in my life
I finally had some money from that BBC
documentary you know a lot of money but
I said let’s take this money and just go
live in New York for a year because it’s
capital of the world and we both had
good friends there and you know I think
New York’s a great city and when we
arrived there I had a commission from
The New Yorker magazine I had another
documentary film in the works I had a
regular gig for a British magazine I had
another book project in the works within
two weeks of arriving in New York all
those plans had collapsed and my then
girlfriend she couldn’t find a job doing
anything and we were living in this tiny
little half underground apartment and
our dog was depressed and it’s just a
just new you’re basically just chewed us
up just chewed us up and spat us out you
know what I mean and then while we were
there I got invited to do a book
conference in Mississippi where I’d been
you know 10 or 11 times and I’ve always
enjoyed it and a friend of mine in
Mississippi took me out for a picnic at
a place called Pluto her family’s farm
out in the Delta and she showed me this
lovely old five bedroom farmhouse on
nine acres of land next to a river with
fruit trees and vegetable beds and views
out over cotton fields and she said we
could probably have this five bedroom
house on nine acres for about a hundred
and thirty thousand dollars that’s my
dad’s house and he’s selling it and you
know they barely let you park in New
York for that so you know then I then
went back to New York we were living in
Manhattan on 20th Street and 8th Avenue
you know when and had to perform kind of
a sales act on my girlfriend I said
listen I know this sounds crazy but I
think we need to leave the throbbing
heart of downtown Manhattan and moved to
Pluto Mississippi population seven a
40-minute driver in the nearest grocery
store in a state where you’ve never been
before and of her many
bad things about and and and to her
credit she said well um things aren’t
going well for us in New York I’ll at
least go and have a look at the place
and banach I had she fell in love with
this beautiful old farmhouse and the
location and we then was probably as
extreme a case of culture shock as I’ve
had in all my travels was arriving in
the Mississippi Delta not knowing
anything really about how that how the
culture worked how the landscape work
dealing with dealing with incredible
quantities of snakes and mosquitoes and
swamps and and a very complicated system
of race relations it really took us a
couple of years just to figure out how
race relations worked in that part of
Mississippi
hmm tell us more what you heard a lot
there was he head
racial prejudice coexisting with love
between the races and this was not an
equation that I was used to I’ll give
you an example on Pluto you know that
the basic although all the white people
belong to one family and there’d been a
black family that had lived on this land
for three generations and it worked
for the white family and they’d become
very very close and in previous
generations the black family had named
their children after whoever the
matriarch and patriarch of the white
family were but now this process had
gone into reverse and the white family
we’re now naming their children after
the heads of the black family like my
friend Martha named her son Joe after a
black man named Joseph who had basically
been a kind of surrogate father to her
own father so these two families were
very very interlinked and they went
together each other’s funerals but they
found it really hard to eat a meal
together at the same table because the
habit of segregation was so instilled
and you know even though there was this
deep love and respect from the white
people for these black individuals they
would also come out with racist
generalizations about black people in
general there were all these different
complexities and contradictions and
nuances in the race relations there that
took a lot of untangling have you seen
any changes in that since you’ve been
there
it seems to be about the same I mean I
would say that race relations in
Mississippi yeah probably about 90%
better than they than they were I would
say that nowhere else has really come so
far in it’s race relations as
Mississippi but on the other hand
nowhere else had so far to go and the
place is still completely obsessed with
race I would say I would it’s it’s hard
to make generalizations as well because
there’s four types of racism I mean
you’ve got your kind of n-word using
racial hatred but that tends to be more
associated with poor white people then
you’ve got this kind of paternalistic
racism which is more associated with the
kinda upper crust and they I would say
that the you know they they have a lot
of these close loving relationships with
black people but they’re not equal then
they’re not necessarily looking at the
black friend even as it isn’t equal they
don’t want their daughter to marry a
black man I mean somebody put it to me
to said there’s white people in
Mississippi they would lay down their
lives for you know the black person that
they’re close to that they would take a
bullet for that for the for their
closest friend but they would also take
a bullet to stop him marrying their
daughter it’s just it’s just a lot more
complicated than I was expecting because
it wasn’t the sort of racism I was used
to from other places
sure yeah it does sound very complicated
I mean Pluto sounds like a very isolated
pert place like in 40 40 minutes away
from just a grocery store how did you
deal with the isolation well I mean it
sounds isolated but I was in fact had a
very rich social life because we got
basically adopted by the family down the
down the road there was a neighbor three
miles the other way he would be his
house a lot there was a lot of parties
to go to and also you just you just
start to think nothing and driving for
40 minutes I mean I would drive Oh drive
90 miles to go and play golf with Morgan
free
he Morgan I got to know Morgan Freeman
he lives in the Mississippi Delta he
belonged to this crazy little Country
Club way out in the middle of nowhere
where you’re allowed to carry a chainsaw
in your golf bag to cut down trees that
gotten away and they’d turn the tennis
courts into a dove feel because they
preferred hunting doves to playing
tennis very eccentric little country
club that Morgan loves so yeah 90 miles
drive 90 miles go to a party drive 90
miles to go to a juke joint there’s
still a few of these little um you know
kind of blues clubs left where you I
mean they’re on the way out now but
there’s a few left and then they were
really fun that was another place where
it’s a it’s a black Club and he feel a
little bit awkward when you first step
in there but it was a kind of
environment that that showed that black
and white Mississippians actually know
how to get along really really well like
when sometimes you get these kind of
magical nights there whether all the
race stuff falls over the way and
everyone just has the best time together
and then but it doesn’t kind of stick
afterwards that they’re what you think
is a friendship then tends to kind of
slide it apart and the old habit of
living separately reasserts itself I
think I think I mean it’s just such a
complicated topic I met so I see race
relations here I mean it’s sometimes it
just seems like a model for the rest of
the country because black and white know
how to get along so well here but most
of the time they choose not to hmm it is
a complicated subject and I’m wandering
out of all of this traveling that you’ve
done was there any lesson that you
learned that sticked with you I mean I
think the lesson that I’ve learned from
my travels is that I find it very hard
to judge people you know I just
automatically now think well who would I
be if I’d grown up like them you know
let’s say I’m some white guy Mississippi
comes out out with you know some
racially demeaning remark you know I can
no longer just dismiss that person
there’s a evil wrong person that should
be shunned because I think well what
would I be like if I had if my father
you know belong to the white Citizens
Council and brought me up in a very
racist environment and I’ve lived here
my whole life Oh what did I think like
that person I guess the lesson is that
we’re all just we’re all just products
of our environment and once you accept
that about people it becomes very hard
to judge them sure I don’t consider
myself superior to other people because
of the beliefs that were instilled in me
by my education and cultural background
sure
we were we were adopted by this family
on Pluto who were you know fairly
right-wing Republicans who watch fox
news all the time and that was another
lesson is that you know in our age of
social media people tend to define
themselves as belonging to one and
political tribe or the other whereas if
you’re actually meeting people
face-to-face and your neighbors with
them you end up realizing that
somebody’s political views are just just
a small segment of who they really are
I mean first and foremost they’re you
know mothers and fathers and brothers
and sisters and sure they’ve got
professions and hobbies and opinions
about many other topics the more I
travel and the older I get that the less
keen I am to judge somebody and also
think that the moment you judge somebody
that that’s when you stop learning
anything else about them yeah yeah yes I
think that’s an important lesson I think
that you know there’s there’s so much
life out there to be experienced that
looking at your phone and to being
concerned with the opinions of others or
the way pede that people are judging you
becomes more and more trivial you’ve
been through enough problems to really
understand that you have no room judging
anyone else you know for how they handle
theirs yeah I’m the other thing I would
say was that you know as our world
becomes more digital more false in a way
that the the more e-value sensory
experience I feel like I feel like my
five senses it can let the last honest
things that I’ve got I kind of make a
point of trying to experience life
my senses as much as I can rather than
have my experience of life mediated
through through technology through
somebody else’s idea of what I should be
experiencing whether it’s through
entertainment I just encouraged myself
and others to look hard to listen
carefully to Joy your sense of smell
food to savor what crosses of your
palate the senses are kind of all we all
we got left that are honest in our own
no you just said it but you know whether
it’s whether it’s through economic
pressure or whether it’s because there’s
a sense of wanderlust and you’re you’re
for anyone listening to this if you’re
moving into this idea of being a nomad
you know Richard is there any sort of
tip that you would give someone that is
thinking about becoming a nomad I don’t
think it is you know I don’t think it’s
for everyone I mean what what what kept
me going was I’ve got a very active
sense of curiosity curiosity and a
thirst for experience that’s really
what’s kind of kept me moving over the
years and and that’s what that’s what
enabled me to put up with the you know I
mean there’s this hardship and poverty
associated with it to this it’s a
difficult question a lot depends how
much how much money they couldn’t bring
to the to the Nomad game and I mean
talking about living in a ratty old van
or are you talking about living in a two
hundred and fifty five thousand dollar
motorhome or I guess you can get a
million dollar motor home there I mean
is is there something regarding being
open to you mentioned curiosity and
that’s that’s what yeah going so maybe
it’s an openness of experience and
wanting to be you know on the road and
experiencing life through your senses
like you said yeah I mean I think that’s
how you’d get most out of it
but but you know there’s there’s nomads
out there that are not living that way
they they go around a little Club and
they see the same people
they live a very sort of regimented
lifestyle on the road and they’re not
actually having that that much new
experience think they’re traveling in
the same little group and kind of doing
the same things every day but I mean I
would for me you know this is just just
my personal outlook that you that you do
need to be open to experience and at the
point of travel is to learn and expand
your your knowledge to expand your
horizons to expand your tolerance to
expand your understanding of how other
people live that aren’t like you I mean
to me let’s that’s the whole point of
the exercise sure man Richard phenomenal
conversation my friend where can where
can people find your book more on your
work I’ve got a website that’s Richard
grant dot us because I’m an American
citizen there okay there’s there’s links
to my articles that you can find out
about my books there yeah and people can
catch the documentary it’s a really
really amazing documentary it’s called
American nomads thank you so much
Richard for being here guys we are gonna
get out of here my name is Xavier katana
you’ve been listening to the human
experience my guest Richard grant the
book is called American nomads you can
find it online and we will make the link
for that available below you will hear
from us next week thank you so much for
listening