the human experience is entering the
shadows of EAGA as we explore ninjutsu
with my guest mr. Steven Hayes mr. Hayes
thank you so much for being here sir
it’s an honor it’s great to be here so
mr. Hayes if you could briefly tell our
audience who you are and what you do for
those that don’t already know that would
help to preface this conversation well
in a nutshell in the 1970s I went to
Japan to find the last training hall of
the ninja this is before there were
Turtles or anything else like that you
know and I was the first American to
become actual disciple of the Grand
Master there and for several decades I
stayed in Japan went back and forth from
America it was a very different martial
art from the 1980s the idea of being a
protector as opposed to being a champion
somebody who fights for his own name
very different and I developed from
mid-1990s a modern version of the ninja
fighting art I called it tossing dull
and I’ve been promoting that since the
mid 1990s and here we are 20 years later
I was inducted into the black belt Hall
of Fame in 1985
I’ll get the martial art industry
association Lifetime Achievement Award
this July wrapping up a career here
very interesting I’d like to get more
into I mean black belt magazine calls
you
legend one of the most 10 influential
martial arts masters alive in the world
today if you could just kind of go into
more of your story about how you got to
Japan and met Natsume sensei I think
that would be interesting well got to
travel back you know almost 40 years to
a time when Hatsumi sensei was
relatively young guy in his early 40s
his teacher
Takamatsu sensei had just died Takamatsu
was the guy from the 1800s he witnessed
a lot of radical change in Japanese
culture went through the war and had
found in Hatsumi sensei a worthy heir
and so he had just finished transmitting
all of this ancient cryptic lore and had
died in his 80s I arrived on the scene
there were 15 people training in the
dojo at that time you know it’s kind of
funny to think now when you look at all
thousands and thousands of people around
the world involved in this but there
were 15 people and I was the
non-japanese and I was amazed that they
allowed me to train they were very
welcoming brought me right into the
training hall
training was brutal very very rough
rougher than I was used to later I found
out you know I was so honored that they
would allow me to train with them years
later my what my Japanese wife was
talking
with one of the Japanese seniors and you
know she had expressed that you know I
was honored that they had accepted me
and he looks at her and he says all he
says is that what he thought happened
she said what do you mean oh no we
thought he was a big guy from America we
try all the techniques out on him he’d
get sick of us after about a week and
want to go back home and we could
continue on where they’re training he
just never went home so I was I guess
supposed to be discouraged but you know
what I learned there was so different
from anything I had encountered in the
u.s. and it just steeped my desire no
matter how rough or discouraging it was
I was determined that I was gonna learn
this I was gonna get this I was gonna be
the the ninja martial art yeah yeah very
very interesting in your book I’m not
sure which one there I think I mean
didn’t you write to me sensei and there
was kind of no reply and you just showed
up in Japan yeah this is you know way
before the internet or emails or
anything like that and I managed to find
it an address I just sent a letter to
Masaaki Hatsumi in notice city and I
sent several letters actually finding
three didn’t get any reply but it just
you know I was obsessed I had to do it
and I got there and they were very
welcoming for the you know for the
reasons I just went into and I said oh
did
you get a letter from me oh yeah we got
three letters from you and I’ll sue me
since I said he knew you were coming
over so there was no need to reply Wow
okay so I guess I was that obvious in my
determination to to get it or he knew
psychically that you know this was going
to be an important relationship for the
ninja martial art I’ll never know I’ll
never know yeah very very intriguing
with that story why why do you think
ninjutsu has survived for so many
thousand years I think it’s a couple
thousand years well that’s a really good
question obviously political situations
in Japan of the 1500s the 1600s you know
no longer exist this isn’t an
underground resistance movement but you
know modern times there are different
very different but equally perplexing
difficult times you know people have so
much more than they’ve ever had before
and yet it seems that you know people
aren’t so happy they have plenty of free
time and certainly the Internet has
allowed people to be in touch with each
other and yet you know there’s there’s a
lot of discord and so when we look at
what ninjutsu really is it really is not
a martial art as such
that’s just one aspect of it it really
is about how to fit in how to adjust
oneself so that we don’t make a target
out of ourselves people don’t notice us
as much as say you would notice a MMA
champion or somebody like that and so as
the ages go by different challenges
arise for human beings and there’s
something that’s timeless about this
ninjutsu that causes it to continue to
change its form a little bit and be very
be very valid to study in the different
different times since World War two what
do you think what do you think it is
about ninjutsu that makes it so
different than other martial arts well I
can say pretty quickly you know a lot of
in the West in the West anyway a lot of
martial arts are set up really on a
sport model two people go into a ring
and you know the better man wins and
this guy who comes in second place you
know he vows to train harder and he’ll
get another chance and ninjutsu is so
old that it goes back to an older time
an older age where you either won and
there was no second place you know you
were killed or maimed and and it was
used as a way to preserve peace to
encourage peace the samurai warlords
were you know vying with each other for
power and the ninja could
subtly persuade these people peace was
was was was better and so to this day
the reliance on rescuing other people
and escaping just defend and then
disappear makes ninjutsu a very
different kind of a martial art than one
where a 28 year old champion at the
height of his you know physical prowess
is temporarily the guy that everybody
celebrates yeah I mean this might be a
little bit of a controversial question
you can elect to not answer it if you
want but what was what happened between
the Bujinkan system and that the tow
Shindo system I mean there was kind of a
split where you decided to open the
quest centers and move away from how to
me sense his teachings what caused that
well what happened
over the years the 1970s until the early
2000s I wrote a series of books that are
still available to this day and it made
ninjutsu quite famous so there weren’t
15 people studying for very long
everybody wanted to everybody wanted to
be Steven Hayes you know they all wanted
to be the the guy and when you can’t be
the guy I’m the guy you have to create a
new role but people wanted to have that
old days kind of a situation so that was
going on there were a lot of people that
know didn’t particularly like me you
know they were to try
to criticize the way I handled the early
days of publicity and so forth they
wanted to be important so that was one
aspect another aspect was that Hatsumi
sensei was changing and he was adjusting
the art to fit what Japan was looking
for what Europeans were looking for it
wasn’t the same art that I had studied
in the 1970s it became kind of like a
abstract art strange funny kind of
situations how would you defend against
guy with two six-foot bows you know
things that would never happen in real
life
they were just fun to explore but I was
not ready to go there I really believed
in the way we had trained originally so
finally there were some individuals that
were so obsessed you know really with me
and my role they wanted to all cause a
little trouble and so I find I felt I
had gotten my start I had 30 years of
training with HUD Sumi sensei
it was time to take the ninja martial
art and really make it appropriate for
an American base hmm okay fair enough
thank you so much for answering that
what do you think is the most esoteric
thing that you’ve learned about ninjutsu
would be in all of your years of
training
well the way I use the word esoteric it
means something that is not obvious
it could even be explained to somebody
and theirs is not going to get it it’s a
truth that exists but without certain
experiences nobody’s gonna understand
that truth so I would say the most
esoteric thing that I’ve learned is the
reality behind why ninjutsu exists the
the subtle way in which the training
effects changes a person and again I’m
going back to my 1970s training that way
you can’t stay in this martial art and
just get stronger you have to change as
a human being
as you’re learning these lessons and
that changes were not always easy
changes were very heartbreaking
sometimes but those were necessary in
order to develop a kind of warrior
wisdom at the end of the path why do you
feel like there are I mean you don’t
really see any ninjas in combat arena
such as the UFC and other fighting
stages why do you think that is well you
know the Brazilian jiu-jitsu rule book
is pages after pages of all of these
rules and PFC the same thing you can’t
attack the groin you can’t attack hinge
joints they’re all is so-called
no-holds-barred but there’s an extremely
small window
of applicability and so athletes train
how to fit into that window and overcome
somebody else and it’s just not what
we’re interested in doing I’m 66 years
old you know what if I had to fight some
28 year old who has 50 pounds of muscle
on me I still have to win by submitting
myself to these rules and attitude MMA
is big business now
I mean mega big business and so they
play two people against each other and
you know one steals the other guy’s belt
and they’re about to get into a fight on
the stage and you know it’s all planned
a big business this is philosophically
at great odds with real ninjutsu where
what we’re trying to do is confuse an
opponent into not seeing us as an
opponent can you can you get into some
of the differences between toch Indo and
the Bujinkan systems well one of the
things that is different is the way that
people attack Bujinkan attacking method
is kind of a standard from an old age
where people had very short limbs and a
long body you know genetically the
Japanese of 300 years ago 400 years ago
and so a lot of in fact all of the
attacks are initiated with a right foot
moving forward and a right hand striking
so see if you know the listeners can
picture that right foot and right hand
going forward at the same time
nobody fights like that today nobody
fights like that they project a left
foot forward and throw a left hand at or
a right hand and so that was the first
thing that we changed
we made the attacks more like what an
individual is going to experience in the
real world of attacks today the second
thing that’s very different is in
ancient Japan ninja would get into a
fighting situation very rarely and it
was almost always an escape how to
escape so there were a certain kind of
spirit training we could say that was
just unnecessary in those days everybody
knew each day you go out we’ve got the
possibility of physical run in today a
lot of people don’t really know what
violence looks like so we have to teach
them what violence looks like how it
sounds there are certain things that
people say when they’re trying to
confuse a victim and so there’s a heavy
reliance on verbal combat as well as the
more realistic attacking method so
that’s just the beginning that’s the
beginning of what of what pushing doli
is how it’s different from the Bujinkan
method you know I saw I saw you on the
Discovery Channel and you were kind of
tasked to go in there and kind of take
this guy’s hat off or something and
which I found very interesting but how
what do you think the best way to defuse
violence would be or is oh wow that’s a
very broad question are we talking about
violence among strangers violence among
angry people all by
among people to know each other take
quite a long time to answer that so I
think the best thing to say you know
where we start in is trying to
understand where this other person is
coming from you know somebody could be
they got a bad day bad lifetime you know
and they’re just mouthy and saying stuff
that they shouldn’t and it’s offensive
and we need to put a stop to this
well it’s – the law doesn’t allow us to
punish people for saying things no
matter what they say if they’re just
talking we can’t stop them from talking
that’s the way the law is if a black
belt in ninja martial art pushing though
were to physically go over and stop
somebody from talking oh gee yeah you’d
be arrested and understanding where a
person is coming from so somebody’s you
know shooting his mouth off you know I
might say something oh man not you’re
the third person I’ve hacked off today
and I’m getting in everybody’s way let
me just get out of here I get in the
truck I’m taking on if you get in your
truck you go your way I’m apologize to
you I’m sorry
well that’s kind of a strange way a
slightly humorous gives the guy away out
you save face my friend knows I just say
that guy’s life and you know so that is
I would say you know the beginning
understanding where this person is
coming from and then fitting in allowing
ourself to fit in to that exchange is
there is there a personal way that you
deal with injuries because I know that
with training there’s usually a lot of
kind of wear and tear injuries that come
about from that well there’s not really
that much we’re much safer than
basketball
we lose a lot more people to basketball
leagues
and we do martial arts I think because
it’s so dangerous that when people are
training they’re totally aware of how
far to take something you know for
themselves for their training partner
you know whereas with basketball or
skateboarding or something else you know
they might be injury prone a person has
another challenge oh I’m gonna make this
ramp I’m gonna dunk this basket things
that you know distract away from how
dangerous the activity is I guess we
really don’t have that many injuries in
our training so how do you think this
this training toch Indo can improve your
everyday life well we start with the
most scary possibility known to human
being and that is what if I weren’t
alive you know what if this person had
their way and I’m gone and there are all
kinds of considerations you know maybe
this person is just too big how do I fit
in there maybe it’s not worth fighting
how do I get myself away and out of
there without making a target for myself
maybe because the talker is not the
problem the problem is his cousin over
there who’s real quiet who’s just gonna
sneak up behind you and hit you over the
head it demands absolute complete
attention and I think that in our busy
times you know busy lives you know that
feels good it feels zen-like you know
many is the time we’ll be training along
and say ok well we’re done for the night
and people do a double-take they look at
the clock
they can’t believe that 45 minutes has
gone by there that rapidly involved in
physical training the mental training
trying to get better letting go of bad
habits trying to pick up a new good
habit I think that’s really the key to
you know how this works
why it works why people continue to
train for years and years what what can
you say I know you’ve been training for
many years but what can you say has been
the most difficult lesson that you’ve
had to learn through your training well
physically when I started back in the
1970s you know I was in my 20s I was
very used to a kind of aggressive style
of movement charging forward and
knocking limbs out of the way and
hitting and that’s just totally the
opposite of the ninja way of winning we
engage the limbs we let the person think
they’re winning for a half a second we
fit in and that took me a lot of years I
would get it and then under a test or
whatever I would you know be thrown on a
loop and go back to the old way just
standing there trying to slug my way out
and these guys had become phantoms and
that yes I think that was probably that
the toughest thing you know and it was
good that I had the teacher that I had
that’s Umi sensei is a very different
person for me very different person and
that’s good if you’re studying with a
person who’s exactly like you it’ll just
reinforce your bad habits so I had to
learn new ways of of doing things
sometimes I wondered if he was kidding
me you know this can’t be real but I’ll
just go along with it and sure enough it
turned out you know that’s one of the
aspects of growth that I experienced in
there
okay well I mean you’re you’re credited
with being a Buddhist and it seems like
serendipity is a major famine you you
have to be the most lucky person in the
universe just because you were a
security advisor for the Dali Lama how
how did that occur how did that happen
well I had visited with the Dalai Lama
in 1986 when I was in India and just as
you say very lucky very lucky he had a
brother who lived just a few hours away
from me back in the US he was the first
one to escape Tibet in 1951 and he had
worked as a professor at Indiana
University so I went over to see his
brother and you know find out a few more
things from him and that very so 8687
the Dalai Lama came to Indiana to see
his brother brought all these monks with
him and so I got to see him again there
and he remembered me it was a very
amazing memory that he has he remembered
me and then 88 I got to see him again 89
I was in Los Angeles at a conference
where he was and they announced that he
had won Nobel Peace Prize and
immediately the sleepy little California
coastal campus just went wild reporters
and people showing up people who didn’t
even you know think about the Dalai Lama
take him seriously suddenly where
pouring in and by then I had gotten to
know the Dalai Lama’s family and gotten
to know his political staff and so I
jumped in and helped them with some
security security at this little sleepy
California University was you know some
old old duffer with that time key
walking around you know the you know
they had no security at all really and
so after that he was coming to Ohio and
the staff had by then gotten to know who
I was and asked if I would help with the
Ohio visit and then it just went on and
on from there whenever he would visit
the u.s. and be in the Midwest I would
organize a team that lasted until Oh
1999 and that’s when the federal
government got involved we just we
couldn’t keep doing this with you know
volunteer work and finally talked the
federal government into supplying State
Department dignitary protection team and
so like 70 guys would show up and three
bomb sniffing dogs and you know
intelligence briefings every morning at
that point I can I mean they were only
protecting the Dalai Lama and I mean
there were a lot of people at the events
that you know needed security and so I
continued as a liaison officer kind of
working with the State Department and
even played the role of the MC a couple
of times to introduce him to the to the
crowd as the years went by you know I’m
too old to be a potty guard now they
have guys one-third my age you know yeah
Wow Wow very very interesting this
Heys I do really appreciate your time
and you have to be one of the most
interesting people that I’ve gotten a
chance to read about and hear about is
there is there a place then that people
can find out more about your work
yeah the best place probably is the web
Steven K Hays you just write that out
like one giant word ste Phe my s Steven
K Hays dot-com and that gives them a way
to find out about my training school
here in Ohio find out about our we have
a massive library of techniques that are
online now people can subscribe and
basic lessons to intermediate lessons to
some pretty exotic techniques some of
the weapons some of the psychic you
could call it psychic type of work that
we do all available online so Steven K
Hays calm would be the best place to go
just to check it out perfect
we will make sure that we link that in
the comment section below
mr. Hays thank you so much for being
here this is the human experience my
name is Xavier we’re going to get out of
here thank you so much for listening