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[Music]friends thank you so much for being here
we had a couple stream issues after a
short break of not doing any podcast we
are finally back and live-streaming
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it’s just our first show back but sit
back relax grab a drink enjoy this
conversation with my guest my guest this
week is Massimo Pigliucci he is a
scientist skeptic and philosopher who in
recent years has written a number of
books on stoicism he earned a PhD in
philosophy from the University of
Tennessee and is the Cady Irani
professor of philosophy at the city of
College of New York he also has a
background in biology with a PhD in
evolutionary biology from the University
of Connecticut
Massimo what a list of credentials you
have my good sir welcome to hxp yes
indeed and we were we were talking a
little bit about this about the show and
I mean we were running into some issues
it’s a perfect way to bring in what
stoic philosophy is and what stoicism
encompasses can you tell us a little bit
about so what is stoicism well we
experienced a classic situation where I
think one of the fundamental concepts of
stoicism is something called the
dichotomy or control which essentially
tells you or reminds you of the fact
that some things under your control and
other things are not in your control and
that you as a consequence it’s logical
to focus on the things that are under
your control and then take the rest as
it comes if you can influence it for the
better good and if not that’s that’s
okay you have to make peace of it with
it so for instance you know we just had
as you know some technical difficulties
first with my setup then yours hmm well
there are things we can do about of
course you know right sorry I try to fix
the bit on my part eventually we
succeeded you try to fix the bed on your
part and you eventually Disick’s it but
while you were working on your bars it
was absolutely nothing I could do other
than just wait now some people might get
upset or nervous or you know start
filling around or something mike is like
well if it’s gonna happen it’s gonna
happen if it’s not gonna happen it’s
going to happen another day for sure
it’s not a tragedy right now at the end
of the world if we can make this happen
today great if not we will find
something else so this is a classic
example of you know many many times in
life you know almost on a daily basis
we’ve run across things that you know
small or or big that are going to
frustrate us or that make us angry or
that make us you know disappointed and
things like that
but if you train yourself to always
everything you do think in terms of the
background control you always ask
yourself the first question you ask
yourself is well is this under my
control if the answer is yes then okay
well what can I do about it
mm-hmm no it’s like well then sit back
and relax because there’s nothing else
you can do mm-hmm yeah for sure I mean
there’s and this is why I think I
connect with what stoicism teaches so
much is because you know most most of
the things external to us are completely
out of our control like we’re not we’re
not able to manage the emotions and
feelings of other people we can’t
imagine I mean and life life tends to
throw you know curveballs at us and we
just we sort of just have to adapt to
those things and I think this is where
the the strongest part of stoicism is is
it it kind of teaches you how to do that
that’s right the thing that’s important
when were to keep in mind is this isn’t
a question of you know saara quietest
philosophy it’s not oh well there’s
nothing I can do about it therefore I’m
just not going to do anything it’s if it
were just that then it would be a losing
proposition because that means that you
would just disengage from everything
that you’re not guaranteed to succeed to
succeed the the approach is there from
approach is to try to keep in mind where
your locus of action is where is it that
you’re going to be more effective in
tackling a particular problem and focus
your energy there the other side of that
approach of the economic
is that what you cannot control you
should develop an attitude of equanimity
officers accepting with serenity what’s
going what’s going to happen this is
actually very similar to concepts that
are found in other traditions including
in 8th century Buddhism and medieval
Judaism and also in Christianity
simulations may have heard of the
serenity prayer which is a standard
prayer it’s a 23rd century Christian
prayer that is used at the beginning of
a a meetings or similar 12-step
organizations and of course I never
remember on the spot how exactly the
prior goes but essentially it is asking
God to allow you to make the distinction
between what is under your control and
what is not in your control having the
patience and fortitude to withstand you
know to accept once and on your
controlling the courage to actually
change what it is under your control
it’s essentially the same same concept
as in stoicism and it’s not by chance
because as it turns out the most famous
rendition of this dichotomy of control
is found at the beginning of epictetus
enchiridion
the enchiridion is kind of a short
manual for how to live your life which
was written in the second century and
after the end of the Roman Empire when
Christianity basically took over
throughout the Middle Ages
the enchiridion was actually used by
Christian monks as a training man the
only difference with your original is
that every time that the very big
pillars was talking about Socrates as an
example the good Christian monks
replaced the word Socrates with the word
Jesus but other than that it’s the same
thing so it’s no surprise that we
actually find the same concept in a
number of different traditions including
the Christian one which has been highly
influenced by by stories when I you know
when I think of someone who is stoic in
mainstream culture
I think of Spock from Star Trek
that’s how I think of when I think of
someone who is sort is it so is it I
mean just to clarify this is it is it
suppressing your emotions that’s not
what stoicism is is it no it isn’t and
in fact because
action of most practicing stoic cies is
to tell you that note isn’t like spock
at all but it’s actually not quite that
easy because despite the fact that spark
is supposed to be suppressing emotions
if you actually pay attention to the
original series and to enter the various
movies based on the original series you
will see this that spark does have a
motion they had positive of their
positive emotions however he loves his
friends for instance love is an emotion
he says several times several times that
is a close friend of Captain Kirk and
dr. McCoy he clearly cares about
knowledge and science
he also very clearly cares about justice
and ethics right and in one of the
movies he actually sacrifices himself
saying that you know the the benefit of
the many out to outweigh the benefits of
the one well all of those actually
positive emotions so despite sparks own
for the stations that it doesn’t have
emotions and then he wants to control
emotions that’s not quite what he’s
doing what he’s doing is to controlling
the negative emotions and disruptive
emotions things like anger hatred fear
those are the emotions that are really
not good for you and that pretty much is
the stoic attitude stoicism is not about
surprising emotions but rather in a
sense to sort of reorient our emotional
spectrum away from negative disruptive
emotions such as hatred fear and and you
know and and anger especially and
towards the express cultivation of
positive emotions such as love joy sense
of justice so so in a sense there is
something true about the stereotype
accept but of course like every
stereotype it only gets things half
right or a border right not enough of
the treasure the other part of the
stereotype that is typical when people
use the word stoic in the sort of the
common meaning as opposed to the
philosophical one is that stories are
often envisioned as going through life
of a stiff upper lip well and so
therefore being you know particular
particular fun to hang around with
that’s also not true of course
Stoics do alter things that everybody
else does in fact Seneca
one of the major Roman Stoics explicitly
says that sometimes you just have to let
it go go dancing go for a walk enjoying
wine evening to intoxication that
doesn’t sound like somebody who’s not
having fun really but the right the
right part the correct part of the
stereotype is that in fact endurance is
in fantastic value the notion is that we
should endure what we cannot control
what we’re going back now to the
dichotomy of control then we started
with sure if something is none of the
inventory if you cannot do anything
about it
then you only have two choices really
either you endure it and try to sort of
get over these particular hump in your
life or you can start and get upset what
makes it work which simply makes it work
yeah that’s right
it doesn’t actually prove things in fact
it makes it more so makes you feel force
and probably because that kind of strong
emotional reaction clouds your judgment
it actually makes things also of course
in a practical sense yeah I mean if I
think of any time where I’ve been in a
situation where things are out of my
control
whenever I make the choice to sort of
react or bite into those emotions it
just makes it tremendously worse I mean
and whether it’s you know fight with a
friend or something that’s going on like
I was traveling last week and it was it
was like mini disaster after me you know
like just putting out these various
fires and if you find yourself in this
state of panic when that’s happening it
merely makes the situation that much
that much worse so there’s so much
there’s so much to be said about the
power of stoicism and having that as you
said this a sort of meter on your your
emotions and being aware of them and and
honing out you know the the negative
versus the positive and being selective
about that yeah how do you do that
because you know the theory is it’s
pretty clear I mean you can I can
explain story theory in the basic story
theory in a few minutes and if you
really want to get into the details we
need a few hours but no more than that
so it’s not that difficult
it’s the practice of course that is that
it’s difficult but but let me tell you a
couple of things about this
first of all it’s not surprising that
the practice is difficult
I mean imagine a complete different kind
of situations which are where the Stoics
did use as an analogy of them to explain
their flaws they say you know imagine
your little gym and you know you call up
a somebody a trainer and the trainer
explains to you the theory of you know
how to do your exercises it’s not rocket
science you you can listen the trainer
and understand what he’s saying and a
few minutes you get the gist of it but
that doesn’t mean that you in a few
minutes you’re gonna grow muscles and
and and eliminate fat right that’s gonna
take hours and hours and days and days
and then monks and moms and eventually
years and years of practice it’s the
same with a philosophy of life what it’s
always more Christianity or Buddhism or
anything else the theory is not that
difficult the practice become it takes
you no time you get better only only
with time now there are certain some
basic techniques some basic ways of
doing this and one of them has been
proposed by a modern stoic actually Bill
or vine who is publishing about the
publish actually a new book called the
stoic challenge which is gonna come up
and come out in in September and bill
says ok so every time you go through a
situation like the one you were talking
about at the airport things that you’re
on vacation will try this little mental
trick hmm imagine that you think okay so
this this is the Stoics God are sending
me a test they’re testing me they want
to know how I’m doing under these
conditions and so forth the duration of
the test which is of course the duration
of whatever problem you have to actually
tackle you’re gonna keep mental scores
with yourself about so how am i doing am
i reacting with anger in my intro
reasonably am I making progress
am I getting frustrated and so on and
then at the end when the challenge is
over you sort of sit down maybe even
write it down and say so how do you guys
do on this and the trick is of course
it’s a mind trick right but my tricks
are crucial I mean this this is how we
actually live our lives among our lives
of mental lives or in our actual the
real life our is
a number of mind tricks the way you
think about things completely changes
the way you actually experience them and
the way you react to them so every time
you have a channel something happens it
doesn’t go your way just say stop for a
second and say to yourself either
you know loudly if nobody’s around to
listen to you or you know mentally it’s
like ah here’s that here comes a
challenge from this body cards and you
don’t have to believe in story cards
obviously bill everybody doesn’t believe
in Stan story gods and why it’s just a
mental device and say okay here’s a
challenge let me see how I do let me
keep tabs on how I’m doing and then I’m
gonna write a report to myself that’s
the important parts of writing down
things essentially doing what stories
referred to as a philosophical diary
it’s important because for one thing it
allows you after the fact to analyze
more commonly your own reactions and
think about what went right and what
went wrong but also since you know you
can do that you’re gonna actually self
examine basically in writing then Seneca
suggests you’re gonna be more careful
about what you do because you’re not
gonna lie to yourself if you have you
know you’re gonna have to write things
down
you’re not gonna pretend that you did
something different you know what you
did and you’re gonna write it down so
you’re gonna hold yourself accountable
essentially for your actions both okay
so I mean there’s a lot to unpack there
and I’m doing my best to say so
I mean first of all you consider
yourself a skeptic I mean you you listed
yourself as a skeptic does that mean
does that mean that you do this more
more objectively I would say do this did
the Stoics have a belief in God well in
a sense yes but it needs to be really
seriously qualified so the Stoics were
from a modern perspective what we would
call pantheists that is they believed
that God is in the universe
in fact they believe that God is the
universe God for the story is made of
matter its physical and it is exactly
the same thing as the universe I mean
that they are pretty explicit about this
if Bianca diogenes laërtius for instance
which is one of the commentators on the
early Stoics he says it’s basically the
story called God the same as true the
same as nature it’s the same same thing
so in a sense yes they did believe in
God but it’s a it’s a God that it’s
actually essentially embedded in the
laws of the universe now one difference
in in the way in which we moderns might
think of the universe and the way the
story started this is the destroys just
like pretty much everybody in antiquity
thought that the universe was a little
kanessa
mm-hm and therefore the universe was was
doing whatever it is that it’s good for
itself okay so which are everything that
happens in universe it’s good for the
universe and we are bits and pieces of
the universe so indirectly in a sense
kind of us but not in the sense that the
universe actually cares about us not
that there is a God out there that
decides you know what what’s gonna
happen and what’s not gonna happen it’s
just that the organism that the cosmic
organism is doing things we are bits and
pieces of that cosmic organism and so
just going on from the right if you will
come up with an analogy to sort of
explain what the a little bit better
maybe before the concept is so sure I
have like every like every human being
we have you know hundreds actually
billions of neurons in our brains right
each one of those cells is part of me
and I am the organism so I do whatever
it is but it’s good for me so in this
case I’m talking to you and then I have
dinner then I’m gonna go for a walk or
something like that
well my neurons don’t know what’s going
but whatever I do is in a sense good for
the neurons meaning that friends are
part of me so they just they go along
with the right did they do their part if
I did not have neurons I couldn’t be
talking to you I couldn’t be making
decisions I couldn’t do anything okay
so the relationship between my neurons
and myself is pretty much the
relationship than the ancient stoic
start there is between us and the
universe where we are the neurons we are
the cells so the individual cells can
die in your sense can you know bad
things can happen to any individual
that can become they can die out that
can become cancers or whatever it is but
what happens when the needle sells is
part of a way in which the organism has
a whole reacts so that’s the way the
ancients thought about it
most modern stories don’t believe that
the universe is a living organism
because you know modern physics tells us
that things don’t work that way and so a
modern stoic is more likely to accept
what it’s called Einstein’s gods
sometimes Stalin was famously asked you
know do you believe in God and his reply
was sure I believe in the laws of nature
so God here is conceived as the fact
that the universe has a rational
structure if it did not have a rational
structure we couldn’t understand it with
there would be no science possible so
the universe does have still with me
melsmel okay guys it looks like we might
have hit a little bit of that bump that
I warned you guys about earlier we’re
gonna find out what happened to
Massimo’s microphone so sorry
masamori back okay we lost we lost
massimo hang tight here guys just gonna
bring our producer in – massimo you
still with me
yes ok ok you dropped out for a little
bit and and now you’re back ok alright
so so the last thing I heard you dropped
out around when you were talking about
the nature of the universe and our
interconnected nature – to Nate to
nature the human connected to nature so
yeah I think so but what do you pick up
from there please ok so the analogy that
I was making was that just as for the
ancient Stoics God is the universe and
we have bits and pieces of it and we do
our
within that universe so in the same way
that say my new Gran’s my little neurons
don’t know that I’m a part that they are
part of a living organism and I am the
living organism I go around doing what
it is that I need to do and the neurons
just both go along for the ride and also
make it possible to do things right so
the way to look at at how the ancient
Stoics thought about the relationship
between themselves and the universe is
pretty much like the relationship
between my neurons and myself we are
part of these cosmic living organism
now Lauren Stoics don’t believe most
money storix there are exceptions don’t
believe that the university is a living
organism because you know we’ve just
followed what whatever the physicists
tell us and the physicist don’t think of
the universe as a living organism mm-hmm
so in that sense a modern stoic is more
likely to believe in what is sometimes
referred to as Einsteins god
einstein was famously asked at one point
if he if he believed in God and his
answer was sure I believe in the laws of
nature and the meaning right sorry so
many meaning that well I believe that
the universe is organized in a logical
manner because if it were not organized
in a logical manner in a rational man
wouldn’t understand it there would be no
science possible but where that
rationalization comes from we don’t know
physicists haven’t given any answers
yeah so it’s just a fact of life itself
it’s a wrong fact the universe is
organized according to laws and
principles and we act following those
laws and principles so you do you think
that this accordance to living in
connection to nature I mean what
position that does that put us in do you
think it it it puts us in a place to
grow as people more if we’re connected
to nature I think so
but we need to be clear about what that
phrase actually means in the story
context so one thing it doesn’t mean is
that we should go running naked into the
forest and hacking trees that’s not what
living according to nature means
although of course there’s nothing wrong
with that if you want to do it but the
phrase itself just means that we should
be taking seriously both the nature of
the universe and the nature of humanity
of human beings okay
still there yeah I’m here I’m here
okay good because now I’m getting
annoyed okay I know I got a little
silent because I thought you’re gonna
keep going the nature of the universe in
the nature of humanity the universe
means that we better live our lives
following your understanding exactly how
the laws of physics work if you try to
do something that goes against the laws
of physics you’re gonna get yourself
into trouble now you might say well
who’s gonna be so silly to do something
against the laws of physics and Mayans
will be planning people for instance
anybody who uses automatic medicine is
doing something against the laws of
physics
he’s thinking that that I do red sugar
essentially and water will cure disease
that’s nonsense and a stoic would say
now don’t do it because that means you
don’t understand the nature of the
universe or I don’t know if you remember
several years ago there was this very
unfortunately highly successful book and
DVD that came out was called the secret
right yeah so the secret is based on an
incorrect understanding of the universe
essentially all right so so the circuit
says that if you really want something
if you really truly want something like
you know a new job or a new relationship
or whatever it is then the universe will
somehow Bend and and recognize that now
it doesn’t work like that
if an Epictetus 2,000 years ago you know
almost 2,000 years ago explicitly wrote
that it doesn’t work that why one of his
students was complaining because he had
a broken leg and a meat-eater says well
what do you want that the universe just
changes things around so that you’re
breaking like it’s not broken
yeah deal with it you got a broken leg
horse things can happen so so one level
of the phrase living according to nature
means just live your life according to
best understanding of how the world
actually works and not according to how
you would want the world to work
so it’s essentially it’s a it’s a way of
saying don’t engaging in you know
wishful thinking but the other the
second part I think is even more
important the one about human nature so
the Stoics thought that there are two
fundamental aspects to human nature one
is that we are eminently social
organisms we can if we need to we can
survive in isolation but we only thrive
in social groups mean so we’re eminently
social and the second component is that
we are also capable of reason we’re the
only animal or at least again knowing
which reason has really achieved certain
levels that are not found anywhere else
in nature right from these two things
they concluded that therefore a good
life for human being is a life in which
you apply reason to improve social
living okay so the meaning of life
according to Stoics is precisely that
and Marcus Aurelius says it explicitly
in the meditation it says you know do
whatever social reason demands and only
whatever social reason demands because
that’s the whole point the point of
letting a human life is to be helpful to
others make things better for everybody
which means of course making things
better for yourself
so someone let’s let’s just take a
little bit of a pause you’re feeding us
so much information which I love so much
but I want to just I just want to
backtrack a little bit and I want to
cover you mentioned Marcus Aurelius I
find his life fascinating I think I
think it’s so interesting the story
behind everything he was doing the
position that he was in but I’ll let you
tell the story can you tell us more
about Marcus Aurelius his and his life
as an emperor and what he was doing when
he wrote meditations we don’t know
exactly which years but close to the end
of his life and in fact he was on the
frontier you’re fighting an eight-year
long war against the Marcomanni and
other German tribes these tribes had
essentially tried to invade Roman
territory in some negotiation the
interesting bit actually
about this is that along a this was a
defensive war that Marcus was was doing
but if that it was a war that resulted
on the fact that the America money
actually wanted to be part of the room
and sort of ecosystem they wanted to be
able to trade as equal partners with the
Romans and so there was some
disagreement essentially on economics if
you will and as often is the case when
disagreements of economics cannot be
resolved diplomatically then people
start you know taking a box so a Marcus
family itself II did not want to wage
war but he found itself in on the
frontier in the end of his life and this
is where he brought the meditations we
know this for a number of reasons and
for one thing because of his
correspondence with some of his friends
and associates but also because two
chapters two volumes of the
implementations actually explicitly say
that they were bring in you know in the
fields and they give the location so we
know where he was now Marcus had arrived
there it was very interesting way so
first of all it was one of the so-called
five good emblems there was a period
this was the peak of the Roman Empire
the Roman Empire was its most peaceful
as well as its most extensive during the
reigns of these five emperors which
included Adrian and inspires internal
spires was Marcus adoptive father
okay so Adrianna fat had suggested to
Antoninus to uh transpires that he
should adopt Marcus because Adrian saw
in Marcus the young Marcus somebody who
had jobs he had what it took to become
an emperor
so Marcus was basically raised in under
inspires household and you know Palace
he was given instructions you know
indication accordingly any study
philosophy since he was very young he
started with a number of philosophers
not just 2x looking at different
philosophical approaches he also studied
rhetoric he started number of a number
of things but apparently since he was
very young he stoicism is the thing that
clicked with his historic teachers
we’re the ones that made the most
impression and he sorta try to start
practicing stoicism to the point that
his mother cup with worries because as a
boy he started sleeping on the floor in
order to in cinema in a mass poverty in
order yeah it’s right so to remind
himself that he could cope with
adversity and his mother said none of
this nonsense now eventually after an
appearance buyers died Marcus became
Emperor in fact he became
co-emperor he decided to share the
Empire of Marcus Paris was not exactly
the best you know Co Emperor but he did
his job
Ethiopia did okay and then at some point
first died and Marcus became the sole
Emperor in charge of everything this was
a trial you know a pretty difficult time
as I said the five Emperor’s did oversee
a time of peace and prosperity for the
Roman Empire but when it came to Marcus
she was pretty unlucky he had to face
one war on the eastern frontier against
the Parthians of what you know one of
Rome’s regular standby enemies the
second war later on as I mentioned on
German frontier he also faced an
internal rebellion these trusted
lieutenants at some point declared
himself Emperor
so they had to be dealt with and more
importantly you have to deal with a
plague that was brought back to run by
the legions coming back from the east
plague was the worst recorded in ancient
history it probably killed between three
and five million people hmm that’s a lot
to deal with during during someone its
wings and so what you see in the
meditations is essentially Marcus coming
to terms with all this stuff you know
how do you how do I do
thanks how do I cope with the stress and
the fact that some of my own people are
betraying me upon his wife was not
faithful either so that was another
problem hunan that the meditation
session essentially a personal diary
where Marcus is made up of twelve books
so
but in fact it’s like it’s one book with
12 chapters really and in in each book
you see my purse going over and over on
the same themes in fact one of the
criticism that people have of the
meditations is that it is repetitive and
if then it’s preachy but that’s to be
understood you know it’s of course it
was repetitive it’s somebody’s diary
first on diary presumably you you run
into the same problems over and over so
you write about the same problems over
and as far as prejudice is concerned
while he was fishing to himself it was
it was telling himself he never meant to
my published like this was not as it was
not his intention to publish this
journal that he was writing for himself
and right I mean you know he had you
know he had anything at his disposal
that he wanted he was Emperor you know
so he had all the money that he wanted I
mean people were bothering him for
something every day so I mean what was
something that Marcus said that sort of
hit home with you like I think in a
paraphrase I think he said something
like you know people will ask you for
money today they will annoy you they
will bother you and so I thought it was
really amazing that this the
posthumanist this this person has become
you know such a almost a literary genius
like you know like it’s putting out this
this philosophy without the intention of
doing that which is which gives it this
whole other color and dimension that I
find fascinating about his life you’re
thinking of my favorite quotes from from
the meditations where he says you know
start out remember you should start out
every morning expecting that people are
going to be nasty and treacherous and
you know vile and so on and sports this
was his normal sort of experience of the
world
he says I you know Don expect otherwise
I mean to expect otherwise it’s like you
know expecting a thing to be in flower
in the winter to use actually metaphor
that comes out of evicting us it’s like
that would be silly it would be
irrational this is one of those things
again then that goes back to the control
with which we started in this
conversation right so you don’t expect
the people all of a sudden change and
become great and good in everything you
just deal with what they would take what
the actual
we are not with the way in which you
want them to be but then he goes on in
the same the very same paragraph he says
but you know remember you have also made
mistakes you also be annoyed and you’ve
also been you know creating problems
from others and tell me that you know
everybody does that that’s what they
would they do because they think that
they’re right I mean you know you rarely
encounter somebody decided you’re bent
on doing the wrong thing knowing that
it’s the wrong thing people are in good
faith usually they they think that
they’re doing what the right thing is
they made me be stakin and they may be
annoying as a result or creating
problems as a result but you know you
need to understand where they’re coming
from and then funny says spelling the
same paragraph in the same section he
says regardless of all of this this
should not touch you because what you
can do is always through treating
yourself and think about what is the
right thing to do and do it regardless
of what other people think or regardless
of what other people do it is up to you
to do the right thing again this is
another application of the economy
control he’s saying look you don’t
control what other people do but you do
control how you react to that you do
control what you do you do control your
own judgments your own decisions to act
or not so focus on does and you’ll be
fine so it’s it’s a very wise way of
sort of approaching pushing problems
many nations also starts out in dark
first chapter in the meditation it’s
called the first book as a surprise it’s
a chapter the first chapter in the
meditations really isn’t a long exercise
in gratitude he starts out by saying I’m
thankful to my father for my mother for
that my grandfather for this my friends
for this my teachers and so on and so
forth it’s a great example of literally
as you were saying a minute ago the most
powerful men in the Western world at the
time that begins his own diary by
reminding himself that he’s got that
point of power and and in you know of
prestige and everything because of
countless
people who would be good to him and who
have influenced them for the better and
it’s a great it’s a great and you know
exist exercise in humility century in
being grateful to people which we all
could use a little bit more of yeah for
sure and it you know I love I love the
idea of his life and and at the limits
he was tested I would say he was
probably one of I mean the greatest
ruler that we’ve seen in you know in
recent times and in ancient history
times it doesn’t seem like there’s a
ruler that I’ve heard of that is so
balanced and thinking so clearly about
how to rule how to govern how to deal
with you know everyday sort of problems
and issues and really addressing you
know really addressing that you’re
you’re going to deal with like it’s
going to come up whether it’s for other
people or whether you know maybe the
livestock you know there’s a plague in
the livestock all dies or you know
something happens but it’s going to test
you it’s going to test that inner
resolve that you have and I think if we
circle brought back and we we add this
into our lives today you know we have
technology we’re connected all the time
to our devices where we’re online so it
presents a new way of sort of giving
problems you know because I can read you
know massa I can go to Massimo’s
Facebook page and pull up like Massimo
you were having dinner we were supposed
to go to dinner what happens right so
it’s really interesting to connect such
an ancient philosophy to modern day
living oh absolutely
so so one thing that I think social
media does for me you know I have to use
social media for a number of reasons
some of them are sort of personal
because most of my family is in Italy
and I live in New York so it’s a nice
way to connect and you know stay in
touch we my brother’s my sister or my
nephew my niece etcetera and and some of
it is professional right I used Twitter
and Facebook as you know to broadcast my
professional writings to learn about
other people’s writings and so on so I
have to be essentially a yawn I have a
choice I could decide not to do it but
it’s a
good thing for me to do that said almost
every day when I get on Twitter or
Facebook it’s a it’s an exercising stoic
resilience because of course somebody is
gonna tell me somebody’s gonna be nasty
somebody’s gonna be doing this or that
or the other and you want there’s like
what are these people thinking why are
these people doing this but if you take
it as a challenge remember I mentioned
that the notion bill or vines notion of
the gods
destroyed gods are throwing your
challenge if you think of in terms of
challenge then you say okay well let me
see how how can I cope better with
people who are in fact unknowing or
insulting or something like that and it
really helps I mean I know me more
amazing it’s amazing my behavior online
has improved dramatically for the last
several years because every time I clean
I’m mentally prepared okay here goes
another stoic challenge let’s see how
you can do it when you do a challenge to
yourself you automatically pay attention
you automatically trying to sort do
better and you say AHA this guy I know
what this guy’s trying to do is trying
to get a dancer response out of me
I’m just not gonna do that starts were
really big on insults as in not not
doing insults but but on on handling it
so I picked it ice princess that there’s
two ways to deal with an insult the
basic one which is easily accessible to
everyone is to react to an insult as a
rock
what so I actually have some of my
students do this as an exercise I said
you know go in the bank here pick up a
rock and then start insulting it how
does that feel and of course they do it
and of course they said well I feel like
an idiot
he said exactly that’s the point if
somebody insults you and you don’t
respond they’re gonna feel like idiots
because the point of an insult is to get
a reaction out if you don’t get the
reaction if the person who insults you
doesn’t get a reaction he feels he’s
like well what’s going on here what am I
missing
recycling yeah yeah and so and so that’s
an easy thing to do just like well
somewhat easy so I actually require some
training but but it’s
yeah just walk away the more
sophisticated reaction to an insult is
also brought up by Epictetus and a video
says so there’s a pain in the in the in
these courses were one of me students as
a I heard these guys he has all sorts of
bad things to say about you he said this
and that he insulted you and the victims
response is oh well that’s because it
doesn’t know me well otherwise you could
send much worse so in other words you
used humor to defuse a situation I
mentioned build or find my colleague
friend earlier and he has this example
where years ago it was Aneesha
philosopher he’s a professional
philosopher so years ago he was walking
in the halls of his department and
colleague stops him
there’s our bill I was just thinking him
finishing writing my book and I was just
thinking of mentioning your work you
know builds natural immediate reaction
was to think that’s not but before he
could say that say anything the
colleague goes on and says yeah the
problem is that I haven’t decided yet
whether what you wrote is misguided it’s
wrong or downright evil so bill thought
for a second remember Epictetus
and needs any answered or why not both
and then walked away and the colleague
was stunned because like what are you
gonna say is that so somebody’s
basically not only deflected the insult
benefit sort of like a boomerang throw
it back at you is I you could have run
worse and I don’t care that’s your
opinion that’s in your under your under
your control under my control is to
simply ignore you because you’re beneath
my might notice I just don’t I don’t
care sure I don’t I don’t give a damn
about it so this is something that
people can in fact practice on a regular
basis because there are all sorts of
opportunities to do so on your on the
job sometimes we’re friends sometimes
with relatives I mean imagine you not
your typical Thanksgiving dinner where
your insane uncle is going on racist
rants or something like that you
there are countless opportunities and of
course including the ones of mine to
feel insulted and to react to the insult
in fact we kind of live in a society at
this point where outrage and insults are
just flying all over the place but
trying a little stoic emergency next
time around either in completely ignored
the insult or deflected by by way of
humor and see how it feels I really went
since I started doing that I feel so
much better myself
and I know that I pissed off a lot of
people no I know for sure that you know
when you’re in that state of where you
expect someone respond to respond to and
you’re like almost goading them you’re
poking them you’re pushing them and you
want you’re looking for that feedback
and when you when someone expects you to
be enraged and you give them no response
at all it enrages them further which is
beautiful it’s almost like deflecting an
attack there’s a there’s a quote from
epic Titus that I really really like it
says who then is invincible the one who
cannot be upset by anything outside
their reasoned choice if you train
yourself well now let me make a point
here it’s an important caveat because
sometimes people misunderstand what what
we’re talking about it’s a robot what do
you mean I mean I I feel I cannot avoid
getting upset somebody you know insults
me or or I cannot avoid being angry or
something well let’s talk about what
exactly you can and you cannot avoid the
the immediate reaction is unavoidable
this is what these two is called a proto
emotion so you know the little anger
that you feel was welding inside you
when somebody started saying something
that you think is insulting or stupid or
something that’s that’s not that’s not
avoidable that’s just a natural reaction
or that little you know instantaneous
theater that you feel if you hear a loud
noise all of a sudden that you’re not
expecting that kind of you know media
automatic reaction those things you
cannot control you cannot
and the Stoics never sent that you
should try to control them they’re just
natural reactions however both the
stories and modern cognitive scientists
thought that the mature emotion what
they actually called it passion but the
mature emotion is a combination of the
proto emotion and of your cognition of
the fact that you’re thinking about
things in a certain way so you cannot
avoid the project motion but you can
definitely work on the full leaf the
fully fledged emotion because that one
includes a cognitive that includes a
judgment so for instance if you say you
know well I cannot avoid feeling you
know a little disturbed by somebody
who’s insulting me that’s true you
cannot you cannot avoid it
but then you can stop yourself and say
okay this guy just doesn’t know what
he’s talking about it’s just opening his
mouth and and and air comes out of it
and I’m not hearing it that’s up to you
to modify your judgement instead of
going oh yeah I have plenty of reasons
to get upset if I’m gonna be really
upset that I’m gonna be punching on the
nose or something instead of doing that
so in other words feed on your on your
promotion until it develops a full
fledge anger you can actually do exactly
the opposite and say what am i upset
about the guy is just talking
so what great that doesn’t mean that
doesn’t make any difference in my life
that’s some kind of fact right
similar with you know the loud bang you
know the noise well if it turns out the
noise is in fact you know somebody’s
shooting your father then you might want
to take cover but morally in the night
isn’t it’s just you know something I
would sign happen something inside you
your apartment fell down it’s like okay
well that’s not a big deal no reason to
get upset so you come down immediately
so a lot of the way in which we react to
things is under our control not in the
sense that we can avoid the proto motion
but in the sense that we can actually
reason for a thing in a sense it’s kind
of the opposite of the famous commercial
right instead of just do it historic so
say it’s done yes stop it may very well
be then you want to do I mean it’s not
you know the notion
that you always end up being that there
is no action to be taken sometimes there
is an action to be taken for instance if
let’s say a co-worker is being harassed
by a boss well there is an action to be
taken there because one of the
fundamental stoic virtues is the virtue
of justice and you should intervene if
you see an injustice being done you
should intervene and try to you know
counter it as much as possible so
sometimes your judgement is that yeah
you should act but a lot of the times
you judge me is gonna be you know if you
think about it it’s like no I don’t
think so it’s not worth my energy
somewhere getting upset about it for
sure so someone let me I’m gonna have to
really back in man here this take your
your own you’re your own person you just
develop a topic all by yourself it’s
great I mean I love hearing this out
there like me wrong but you’re like your
own Segway artist it’s okay so you know
I want to I want to talk about virtues
you know because the Stoics were very
strong about living in honorable life
and you know the different virtues that
we should embody in in our actions and
what we do in and who we are so so what
are some of the cardinal virtues please
right so the storix first of all
stoicism is type of virtual ethics there
are several different kinds of virtue
ethics the most famous one is re
startles then there is epicureanism this
is a number of them SOI system is one
type in one version of virtue ethics and
what they all end in common is as you
were saying that we are supposed to act
following certain virtues virtues are
essentially propensities to act in one
way or another they’re they’re part of
our character the part of who we are the
stories in particular recognized four
cardinal virtues four fundamental
approaches and these are practical
wisdom courage justice and temperance
practical wisdom is the knowledge of
what is good for you and what is not
good for you and for displays we need
that
boiled down to a very simple thing we’re
going back again to the duck on your
control whatever is good for you is what
it’s under you bro whatever is and you
do right and whatever is bad
you with what is under your control
don’t do so in other words your good
judgments are good for you your bad
judgments are bad for you and nothing
else everything else is not in your
control
so you should simply ignore it so that’s
practical wisdom which means anything
you know in practice so to speak that
everything you do you should ask
yourself the basic question is this
under my control or is it not so that’s
practical wisdom courage is not just
physical courage but the courage to
stand up in the right thing so it’s
really moral courage well what’s the
right thing what the right thing is what
what concerns the dirt Bertram the
virtue of justice justice tells you that
you should be treating other people
fairly you should be treating other
people as you wanted to be treated and
you should never treat other people as
means to an end but as enging themselves
in other words you should recognize them
as human beings that are inherently
worthy of respect they’re not your
students they’re not something to play
with they are they are human beings just
like you and the finally temperance
essentially means that you need to react
to situations in the proper measure
neither too much nor too little so let
me go back to my example of the boss
that is arising a co-worker right what
is practical wisdom telling me well that
I can arrive at the judgment that that
what boss is doing is in fact incorrect
and I can do something about it I may
not be able to change the boss’s mind
that may not be able to stop behavior
but I can certainly try to intervene
that is under my control so I should
intervene right courage tells me that I
should summon the courage to intervene
it’s not just a theoretical thing I
actually need to do it in practice and
then they take courage because after all
he’s my boss right so I could suffer
consequences from
trianing so I need I need courage
justice tells me that in fact arresting
a coke a worker is not good things it’s
in just because it is not trained person
with respect and temperance tells me
that I need to do it properly act
properly I don’t want to just whisper
something on the
my breath because my boss is not gonna
hear it
that would be under-reacting but I also
don’t want to go and punch him on the
nose sure because that would be
overreacted Shirin
so I need to act with temperance I need
to just stand firm and say clearly and
and what calm is like you know just kind
of be able to really not acceptable so
that’s those are the fundamental
interest and the way the Stoics used
them is as as moral compass so imagine
that you know when we navigate around
your city you need a map you have a when
you when you navigate a ship you neither
or an airplane you need a compass to
know where you’re going and
interestingly of course compasses do
have cardinal points three north south
east and west and the same goes for the
four cardinal virtues essentially the
notion is that every time you are in the
situation a difficult situation or
situation where you have to make a
decision you should ask yourself well is
this under my control or not is there’s
a courageous thing to do is adjust thing
to do and I might reacting temperately
yeah it’s amazing I mean if I think if
we brought this into you know instead of
putting on the Kardashians or it’s some
mainstream garbage if we talked more
about virtue wisdom justice courage and
temperance I mean I think maybe we would
make leaps and bounds and I mean it’s to
be said that’s such an ancient do you
think this leads me to my next question
do you think that there was I mean for
the research for the show’s looking at
the links between Buddhism and stoicism
and there seems to be an interesting
parallel between those things like I
think Buddhism originated about 2,500
years ago whereas stoic stoicism was
about 2,300 years ago so Buddhism is a
little bit older and and and Buddhism
adds in a sort of spiritual like
enlightenment the path the way you know
they talk about suffering as well so I
mean it seems like there are many links
in into these two systems of thought
there are absolutely we don’t know we
don’t think at least that those links
are result of direct influence although
there was a ancient Greek philosophy
important
philosopher Perrault was a skeptic
original sense of the term and therefore
non-historic who was who did go to India
with Alexander the Great and we know
that it was in Kentucky came in contact
with Buddhist monks and Buddhism was
right at the beginning at the time so
and interestingly we don’t actually have
written down books from Buddhism at that
time so it’s at least possible people
have speculated that there are some
reciprocal influences that Piro brought
back to Greece some influences from
Buddhism and that vice versa he
influenced very very early Buddhism
unfortunately don’t know well the only
thing we know is that you went there and
you did have contact you don’t really
have much of a sense of how much
chilling in front was either why but
you’re absolutely right that there are
strong similarities between Buddhism and
stories and in fact I typically think of
you know I present stoicism as the
Westerner
it’s those are not the only two that are
similar that I mentioned earlier
similarities with certain aspects of
Christianity you know the serenity
prayer or even not believe of Judaism
there are also strong similarities
between both Buddhism and and stories
and other Eastern philosophies like such
as Dao ways before instance but the ones
between Buddhism and stories in a
particularly strong the two philosophies
differ dramatically in terms of
metaphysics so let me step back for a
second to give a little bit of
background sure I think that every Asif
II of life such as stories Epicureanism
etc but also every religion Christianity
to raise confusion whatever you want
they all of all those have two
components at least two components and
metaphysics which means an account of
how the world works and in ethics which
is an account of how you should work
within the work the world how do you act
within the so if you think about you
every really you know take three Stanley
for instance Christianity does have a
mid physics as an account of world
actually works was created by God it
supports means the Providence etc and
then there is of course yes you know
what is what are you supposed to do if
you are a good Christian
to be a good question the same exact
thing goes for every other philosophy or
religion of life that I know of
including you therefore Buddhism now the
difference between Buddhism and the big
differences between Buddhism and
stoicism are in the metaphysics the two
metaphysics are very different
the Stoics as we were saying earlier
were clearly materialists they thought
that the universe itself God the soul
everything is made of matter okay
everything is made of stuff okay while
on the other hand Buddhist metaphysics
is or is it area kids or you know they
do believe in reincarnation for instance
or any things like karma it’s not like
that there’s nothing like that even
stoicism
but despite was very different you know
very different metaphysics their ethics
are very very similar you can you can
have you know the Buddhists of course
have the the phone Noble Truths and the
Eightfold Path to wisdom and saurons
fourth concept they have concepts such
as non-attachment and it said there are
proper action proper intention and so on
and so forth well the Stoics is
something very similar they have virtues
that become their control they work they
use different names but they work out to
about the same same approach in in
practice so there are very strong
similarities now you mentioned
enlightenment which is kind of
interesting concept because of course
the in the Buddhist tradition
enlightenment isn’t it also you know has
a metaphysical sort of component to it
certain things happen when you become
enlightened but the stories do have a
equivalent of the alignment and that’s
called ataraxia other axia means
serenity or tranquility and basically
the notion is that if you actually act
like a stoic in life you will achieve
ataraxia you will be serene and you will
be serene because you will always do
whatever it is under your control and
you will always accept with serenity
everything else that you cannot control
you’ll say well sometimes you win
sometimes you lose
today I lost well that’s too bad but you
know there’s going to be a next time and
that kind of attitude or things that
happen to you brings serenity and brings
what what
as a state of mind that the Stoics
referred to as ataraxia now the
difference between ataxia and
enlightenment is that in Buddhism and
enlightenment isn’t sent in in a in a
very strong sense at least from what I
understand it’s a goal it’s it’s one of
the things you want to do you want to
achieve and like for destroyed so that
access this iPod it’s a nice Thai
product but it’s a side product
nonetheless the gophers for a story is
not which he was an access not to
achieves or anything it’s that the goal
is to behave morally is to be a good
human being essentially in fact
interestingly the word virtue that we’ve
been using before you know unfortunately
in English it sounds a little weird
largely because it has sort of very
strong Christian connotations but virtue
in the original Greek is a right a and
heritage just means excellence so what
the stories are trying to say is that we
should try to be excellent human beings
the best human beings you can well what
does that mean I mentioned earlier
living according to nature well the best
human beings are the human beings that
live to the fullest potential of what a
human being can do and that according to
the Stoics is to live socially and
reasonably so the more reasonable you
are sociable you are meaning you’re
helping society not a heaven then then
you the more excellent human being you
so the goal in stories means to become
an excellent mean the best human being
you can as a consequence if you get
there if you become what the story is
call the sage which will be the
equivalent of a list you know
enlightenment sure then you also achieve
attraction also chief complete
surrounded your mind yeah what an
amazing concept this idea of you know
tranquility within oneself while you
know living I think that’s I think
that’s the key here
you know were the Stoics meditators did
they’d meditate well so the word
meditation has of course different
conditions in the auditions and in fact
even with him it has many different
connotations some which are actually
similar to the stoic one and some which
are very different so most West
who have heard of Buddhism they tend to
think about Zen meditation and things
like that and so those are exercises you
do in order to empty your minds of
thought you know focus on now on a
mantra you know let your thoughts go
essentially that kind of meditation is
not found in stores is moving but there
are Buddhist meditations in other
tradition in other Buddhist traditions
that are much more similar to what the
stories think of is a meditation I mean
after all the title the common title of
Marcus Aurelius book is the meditations
right exactly yeah but meditation here
in that same historic sense means
reflection so you want to reflect on
certain things you write your your diary
your philosophical diary so that you
convert from your experience
sanika actually gives specific
instructions on how to do this and a
potatoe starts as well Seneca says you
should you should wait until the evening
before you go to bed don’t do in your
bed because you’re gonna fall asleep but
before you go to bed find a moment of
quiet and a place of quiet in your house
on your apartment and then write down
the answer to the following questions
ask yourself today what did you do wrong
what did you do right and what you could
do could you do better and the point is
you want to know what you did wrong not
because you want to indulge in regret
and flagellate yourself or something
like that that that’s pointless because
the past is outside of your control hmm
but you don’t want to learn from your
mistakes so running them down running
down things like today I did this and I
shouldn’t have done it that is a way to
fix that memory in your psyche a way to
pay attention to the fact that you did
do something well the second thing is
right so what what what is it right
because closing is also very soft
forgiving in other forgiving kind of
philosophy great there are things you
take right in short so pat yourself on
the back because it’s good you need to
pay attention to the things you did
right just as much as the things you did
wrong because after all in the long run
the whole point is to move away as much
as possible from the
things and move away is towards as much
as possible the good thing so basically
what you you can think of your practice
as a way to alter the balance diminish
is much responsible the bad things or
the new mistakes and increase as much as
possible to things and then the third
question is what could I do better well
the reason for asking yourself that
question is because often we encountered
the same or very similar situations but
you go to work every day you see the
same people you run into similar
situations or you go and you have your
family and you come back again no you
can end up very similar situation are
you with your friends and transport and
so maybe today you did not react well on
your job or with your friend or with
your partner but you know the same thing
or something very similar is gonna
happen again tomorrow next week and so
if you pay attention and you ask
yourself what could I do better well how
how is it gonna be better the next time
around I’m going to react better the
next time around again that’s that
because you write it down that’s forcing
you to pay attention it’s essentially in
a sense making a plan for the future and
say okay well the next time is up here’s
what what I’m gonna do and you do that
you know if not everyday Seneca says
actually everyday you know I don’t do it
every day I do it several times of you
know whenever the the need arises I mean
you may have entire days where you don’t
actually do anything is particularly
noteworthy is very right I mean it’s
totally necessary to have these types of
tools that we can use cognitively that
we wear you know whether it’s writing
down you know these things that you feel
you’ve done wrong every day at the end
of every day before you go to bed it it
for me you know I’ve practiced this a
little bit you know inconsistent but you
know it leaves me with a sense of being
cleaned at the end of the day yeah and
runt and and I it’s it it’s almost like
a unloading sort of phase I mean this
the Stoics had these sort of cognitive
behavioral therapies that they practiced
enough so I want leads me in perfect
segue into the
the pre-med etat Tati Oh malorum
anything yes that’s right yeah yes okay
and what do you think about thinking
about bad happening okay you
mentioned the CBT cognitive behavioral
therapy which is one of the most
successful evidence-based the therapies
that you can do today psychotic and
interestingly CBT started out in a
couple different forms one of which was
called rational emotive behavior therapy
am still yes actually and early on in
the 1950s and 60s the people that got
CBT started actually did it expressly by
inspiring themselves to the Stoics and
particularly to and potatoes and marcus
aurelius so there are a lot of
similarities median stoicism of course
stoicism is a philosophy of life so it’s
not just in sound AB it’s not just the
therapy you’re not supposed to use it
only when you have a problem while on
the other hand CBT tends to be more
specific more targeted plpl if you have
an issue like depression or something
like that then you can go to a CBT
practitioner to deal with it you can
think of ever of stories in sort of a
CBT for life in general people have
normal kinds of daily problems so so
that’s the relationship basically
between between the two they work in the
ivied as a scientific evidence based and
therefore stoic techniques work in a
very similar way now let’s go back to
the dance tomorrow just as an example so
for me the past malorum or the exposure
to adversity is in fact does find in
analogy in CBT and civility
practitioners called it an exposure to a
negative stimulus or absorb in stimulus
that you want to avoid so let’s say for
instance that you have a phobia one of
my favorite is phobia or but some people
for whatever reason have a phobia of
their scare buttons okay which you would
think yeah which you have a B on these
buttons that’s right yes okay some
people do have that there is it’s a it’s
a conical condition and of course
there’s no actual reason to be
afraid of buttons but you know people
have some people have a phobia so the
way CBT petition will go about it is
first of all to let you imagine the
button you know before you actually go
in near it or you touch it handle it or
anything you imagine it and you and
started managing you know what’s the
worst thing you can have when I handle
it but is it gonna bite me now is it
gonna poison me no is it gonna do
something really badly No
so you you appear to it yourself
mentally first mentally you know this is
typically done in modern times this plan
is an actual pathologist visualization
exercise you close your your mind your
eyes and then you start thinking your
mind as if you were looking at a movie
watching a movie or yourself doing that
and then eventually you graduate
CBT you actually got way to actually
getting exposed to the stimulus directly
to actually see the button and handle
the button and so on until eventually
you be able to overcome your your fear
now in the case of the preventative
malorum there are examples of this kind
of technique that are found in Marcus
Aurelius and in Seneca and basically
what they’re doing is they’re they are
asking themselves question you so what’s
the worst outcome possibly what’s the
worst thing that can happen so if I go
let’s say let’s let’s use a practical
example it say that tomorrow morning and
have a job interview mm-hmm right well
one way to go from if that’s you there’s
different ways one can do it
visualization I just said it CBT
practitioners to it so you can just
close your eyes and imagine yourself
into the interview and so on another one
is a diary you can write down you know
so look the scenario so what’s gonna
happen or you can talk to somebody about
the scenario there’s number of different
ways but let’s say I need to go tomorrow
for this interview and I’m you know
sorry my turn
worried about this thing well the first
thing you can ask yourself is so what’s
the worst thing you can Africa I don’t
get a job fine I can survive there will
be other jobs there’ll be other
interviews you know or it’s the worst
thing you can happen why I make a full
myself well you know things happen at
sea as finally cessation you know I saw
the end of the world we all embarrassed
ourselves sure and you know you’re
probably never gonna meet that person
again anyway so you start by working
yourself with the worst possible
scenario and then you walk yourself back
and say yeah but that’s the worst thing
what’s the next horseman can’t oh you’re
doing interview doing well and you’re
not quite getting the job but you’re you
know in the final nice well that’s good
what was the next thing that can happen
well the next thing you have in action
you do a really good interview and
you’re doing really well and you
actually get the job and so on so the
notion is to be prepared for the worst
on the grounds that that a the worst
isn’t going to be something you cannot
bear you will be able to deal with it
especially if you’re prepared mentally
with for dance and – the worst is
actually unlikely to happen right it’s
inside it’s not a guarantee it’s not
that you know that fail it’s possible in
fact sometimes it’s likely the things
they’re going to better than you than
you think so it’s a way of reminding
yourself that even the worst-case
scenario is not quite as bad as you
might think
and also that you are capable of
enjoying it you’re capable of
withstanding it exactly if I mean if we
put in front of us like the worst
possible thing that can happen and we
it’s it’s almost a form of understanding
better you know okay like rationalizing
fears you know like so in some way by
seeing this written down on a piece of
paper in front of you you’re you’re
realizing okay well there are ways that
I can deal with this if in the unlikely
chance that it does happen most most
likely it’s this none of this stuff is
gonna go on and going to occur the the
interview has gone perfectly so far –
are you know small technical issues but
it’s been a great conversation and I
think we’ve covered some amazing topics
that you know will really benefit people
so then you know shifting shifting over
once you realize okay
like I’m I’ve listed down all of my
fears in the worst case scenarios then
you know perhaps writing down okay what
are some of the best what are the best
things that can come
of this scenario as well yeah yeah
exactly now there is one exception all
this which is a big one as far as the
Stoics are concerned that’s death one
thing you are not going to overcome
death right and so the story is just
like the Koreans actually write a lot
about death and you fat seneca goes so
far as saying that death is the ultimate
test of character how you actually
approach that is the ultimate test of
character
now this is one where the worst case
scenario one of these days is going to
happen we’re all gonna die and therefore
the focus there shouldn’t be on
overcoming death that’s impossible I
mean again see above what we’re
discussing you know living life
according to nature and understanding
how the universe works what one thing
there is to understand about how the
universe works is the world mortals die
so then the question isn’t really damped
itself the question is how you can
handle it
how are you prepared when it happens are
you are you Affairs in order are you
mentally prepare are you emotionally
clear I did you prepare your relatives
your loved ones you know did you talk to
them and so on and so forth
those are the things that you can do
those are things under control you can
write the will you can talk to your
friends and family you can prepare
mentally this is gonna happen it’s gonna
happen now after it happens
the Stoics agree completely with the
experience that’s it done there’s
nothing else to do because there’s not
going to be any U&E so there’s so being
afraid of death as in what happens after
you die it’s like there’s nothing to be
afraid of there because there’s gonna be
any you anymore
remember the stories where materialists
they thought that death is the end of
the story you gather we absorbed in the
universe you become part of these of the
what they call the logos the universal
is this notion that we can essentially
recycled as part of universe but we are
not going to exist as independent
consciousness
anymore and therefore there’s nothing to
be afraid of as it be curious
sometimes actually despite the fact that
it was member of a rival school he is
often quoted by Seneca as a bigger is
sad you know whatever death is you are
not whatever you are she is now it’s
you’re simply not gonna be there you’re
gonna be there before yeah but once it
happened that’s it it’s not gonna be any
more you so don’t worry about it in sin
again Fenton in a very modern passage at
some point writes to his friend
Lucilla’s that that you know it’s silly
to be afraid of what happens after death
those those are the things that the
poets are been scaring as well or the or
the priests have been scaring us with in
order to control us but there’s there’s
nothing to be afraid of because there’s
nothing period there’s gonna be no
sensations since there’s gonna be no
body there’s gonna be no sensation at
all no matter to you I mean how would
you know if you don’t have a body you’re
not awake you’re not aware of anything
it’s it’s not gonna matter to you at all
and if you do then so be it you know you
you decide what you want to do at that
point but if if there’s nothing there
anyway it’s it’s not you’re not going to
have a space to react in so some awesome
I you know we’ve been we’ve been going
for a little while we’ve covered a lot
of stuff I mean is there a way we can
wrap this together with a nice little
bow tie make it pretty well I mean I I
really wanted to to mention your book
that you that you wrote a handbook for
new Stoics it’s it’s actually on the
screen for people to look at we will
provide the Amazon link when does this
book come out the book comes out on May
14th and so it’s just a couple weeks
away yeah I mean hey or less I went I
went through the book and it’s actually
really well-written and really well
structured you tell us a little bit
about it you you there are weekly
exercises that you sort of perform each
week for with a different goal in mind
correct it’s a double fifty-two X’s
money can go on for a year doing this
thing although my co-author Frank Lopez
and I actually
provide a shortcut in the beginning and
say if you don’t want to go through the
whole thing here’s the most important
exercises and then see how you feel
about it and see if you want to proceed
but basically the book is is written as
a workbook as if we were in fact see
media company behave of therapy what
you’re supposed to interact with it you
don’t you don’t just read it the art
actually the publisher the experiment
did a very good job it from a graphic
perspective to highlight the different
parts of the book and living space for
people to write down their notes and
checking boxes and things like that but
essentially every exercise every chapter
is structured the same way it starts out
with a hypothetical day-to-day situation
so somebody who gets upset for instance
because she’s gone to the gym and
somebody else is being misplacing stuff
and so now that gets in the way of her
doing your routine or something like
that so it’s a normal it’s a day-to-day
situation things that can happen to any
any one of us then they immediately
after that we introduce a quote from one
of the major stories usually activist
Seneca or Marcus Aurelius although there
are some others that are put in here and
there and the quote has the red
pertinence it’s directly relevant to the
situation that and they started out the
chapter after the quote we explained the
theory we say okay so here’s why this
particular quote is relevant to this
particular kind of situation here’s how
it’s an actual exercise where the reader
is guided step-by-step throughout the
week into actually practicing whatever
it is that we that the exercise is about
so for instance if it is about not
getting upset you’re gonna say well okay
here are some techniques for not getting
angry here are some techniques for
overcoming the irritation and then
people can write down every day how
they’re doing if they’re good at their
proving or not whether the exercise is
working or not for them then setting
aside on to the second exercise hmm okay
yeah I mean I really love it because it
puts into a frame that you know these
concepts
be practical and you you really deliver
that you really deliver a method to sort
of learn the different because I feel
sometimes the the Stoics were a little
abstract you know it can be an
abstraction to discuss emotions like
what is fear really you know like fear
mate means something different for me
than it does to you you know we’re
clearly afraid of different things so
with this you know you’re you’re putting
people into situations with their with
their own lives and it’s you know it is
set up like a workbook I’m just paging
through the book right now and you know
it says on week 14 you just you evaluate
your goals you know and it’s it’s full
of really practical stuff just like that
I mean I’m I’m not only just pitching it
because you’re my guest I’m also
pitching it because I really enjoyed it
thank you yeah I think it’s unique there
are stories another one a few years ago
called happy historic but most of the
stoic this books about modern stories
and then out there are interesting I
mean that there’s a lots of good ones
they tend to be the theoretical or
discursive they talk about the history
stoicism then there’s some reference to
practice for sure but not in a such a
systematic way you know him you know
holding your hand kind of way as the
handbook for new stories which I covered
with Greg focus so I we think that
that’s a unique entry into the Canon so
to speak so hopefully it’ll be useful to
people to actually put this stuff into
practice because it’s Remer remember
stoicism is a practical philosophy it’s
supposed to change your life if it
doesn’t change faragut Tiras again
himself words some of the students he
says you know if you if you came here
just to theory you’re wasting your time
if you don’t get out of this classroom
and i can’t really practice actually
become a better person actually in fact
implement these things then you’re just
wasting your time then it becomes just
an exercise in to run academic exercise
in the bad sense of the word and and
story is supposed to really change your
life and it does
a few years ago and they told me that
you know these this approach it really
has turned things around for them in
some cases helping them out of really
bad situation in other cases just
generally making their lives better
focused you pay more attention to what
you’re doing you’re less prone to anger
and and therefore new people like you
more you better dealing with people and
so on wouldnít be amazing it’s like the
social media version of like road rage
would decrease massively maybe all the
haters we have would just chill out and
relax and you know have a drink and sit
back and not take everything so
personally and right you know it just it
I think it genuinely can help I mean
that’s why we covered this is because I
really think stoicism can offer people
even after so much time now today in the
modern world where we are overrun with
information connection and things that
generally produce anxiety mental illness
is something that people deal with you
know I think one in four people in
America are suffer from some disability
so you know I think I think the mental
frame that we have on things so crucial
so important Massimo thank you so much
for your time and energy and just the
material I loved the way that you you
know wrapped it all together just I know
there’s a lot of it a lot of material
and a lot of these people’s lives like
Seneca epic Titus and Marcus Aurelius
like they they lived very intriguing
lives and so so to you know kind of
bring it back around for us studying
them I think I think you did a great job
well thank you very much this was a lot
of fun yeah I’m certain it will be so
just one more time the book is called a
handbook for new Stoics how to thrive in
a world out of your control
it’s a 52 week by week lessons guide
written by my guest Massimo Pig Leo Chi
and my saying of last name right
Bellucci okay I’m sorry I should have
asked that we’re in a mess of
organization at the beginning and Greg
Lopez is the co-author and and then when
is the date this is gonna be available
May 14th for pre-order now great we will
make that link available in this video
and I’ll send you a link as soon as we
wrap this up I’ll I’ll send you a link
where you can put it out to your feeds
as well
Massimo thank you so much for for being
on the show as our first live format
guest is really truly an honor to speak
to you sir
it was a pleasure thank you thank you so
much guys you heard here that was our
guest I mean wow what an amazing show to
come back on and you know there’s
there’s so much more in store and ahead
we’ve got a whole litany of guests that
are just absolutely going to blow your
mind they are going to blow your mind
that that’s how good it is so be sure
you stay in tune I’m gonna run the outro
I’ve been working nonstop for the last
few weeks just I was in the jungle for a
little while and now I’m back in the
States and we’re going full steam ahead
with everything that’s happening at hxp
so I hope you guys are ready for that
here’s the outro guys thank you so much
and we will see you you will hear from
us next week
[Music] [Music]