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human experiences in session my guest
today is mr. mark manson mark my good
sir welcome to hxp
thanks for having me good to be here
mark it’s it’s pretty interesting when
your your career has shifted so much I
mean you be short off as a blogger and
now you’ve moved into this sort of
entrepreneurship and you’ve written a a
couple books out right yeah this is my
second book but it’s the first with a
publisher the book has a not-so-subtle
title it’s called the subtle art of not
giving a fuck a counterintuitive
approach to living a good life was was
the self-help industry something that
was I think you said this think that the
self-help industry is pretty saturated
when you say yeah it’s very crowded did
you feel like you had to put this book
out because because of that reason so I
have a certain style of writing which is
I tend to be very irreverent vulgar
incorporate a lot of humor into my work
and I think on the one hand that that
has helped me differentiate myself but I
also think it’s it’s integral in some
ways to to the topics that I write about
yeah absolutely
the the back flap of your your cover
says in life we have a limited amount of
fucks to give so you must choose your
Fox wisely which is hilarious I mean but
I mean let’s dig into that I mean how
how do we choose our Fox wisely as you
say well essentially it’s what we’re
talking about it is values and
what the really what the book is about
is our values like what are we choosing
to find important what are we choosing
is like the drivers and motivators in
our lives and I think a lot of people
don’t consciously decide those so there
are very few people actually sit down
and think about those like where they
came from why they adopted them this
book is very much designed that help
people ask those questions do you think
I mean do you think that there’s a lot
of snake oil going on in industry where
people are kind of running seminars and
they’re moving into coaching and kind of
doing these different things to kind of
lure people in yeah I think I think
snake oil is kind of it’s a pretty
strong word I I’m sure there’s some of
that I think there’s a lot of good
intentions that are misguided misguided
good intentions in this industry a lot
of people who honestly believe that they
are helping others and that they want to
help others but it there’s a little bit
of like a blind leading the blind yeah
going back to your values what is what
are those some of those core values that
we can kind of identify with so the book
makes an argument or things that are
pretty simple and ordinary you know it’s
a lot of a lot of our culture not just
self-help but a lot of our culture in
general is built on this idea of doing
incredible things having incredible
experiences pursuing more more and more
all the time and I wanted to make the
argument that you know maybe a happy and
stable life doesn’t come down to always
achieving or having more maybe it comes
down to simplifying and being satisfied
with less and that’s a very
uncomfortable idea for many people to
consider hence why all the humor and the
fucks that are flying around basically
it’s I make an argument for for the
mundane it’s the stuff that really
matters the stuff that really drives
happiness and this isn’t just my opinion
it’s research backs us up it’s it’s very
mundane things good relationships with
your family and friends having being
good at something like working on
something that you’re good at feeling as
though you’re contributing through the
people and community around you like it
it really doesn’t get much more
complicated than that the second chapter
of the book is called happy
is a problem and how does how is
happiness a problem the argument I make
is that to be happy you need to have
problem because happiness is a byproduct
of solving or overcoming problems and
and basically that that whole chapter in
a very core message of the book is that
struggle pain and struggle are necessary
for happiness to exist and I think a lot
of people one of the first places that
people get misguided is that they assume
that happiness is a lack of problems
it’s by just not having any struggles in
their life or avoiding all the struggles
in their life and and actually the
opposite is true
I mean you’ve had if we can bounce over
to you know your career you’ve you
started blogging pretty early on right
yeah like 2007-2008 and and then you you
gained a lot of traction in sort of the
dating approach kind of community right
yeah how does a person move from kind of
guiding people to become better at with
women then to you know that what you’re
doing now so what happened was I I
started back in 2008 I read so I read
the 4-hour workweek by Tim Ferriss time
frame and and I was like sweet that
sounds easy I’ll start a website and and
I started a few websites and what I
quickly learned is that making money
online is extremely difficult and
requires an insane amount of work but
one of those websites that created I
created I tried to create a number of
online businesses around my own
interests and being a 24 year old single
guy at the time I was like cool I’ll
start a blog about dating and the first
few years it was very is a very generic
site you know it was the articles were
things like oh three things to do on a
first date you know or like how to get
her to call you back you know this shit
that you would see on Cosmo basically
and and the funny thing is that as the
years went on I kind of I started to get
a lot deep
more personal with the stuff that I
wrote about and as I did that people
responded and a readership started to
grow and by 2011 or 2012 to my surprise
I discovered that a large percentage of
my readers were actually women so I had
I was writing this dating advice site
for men and whereas I had started out
talking about like first dates and text
messaging stuff but after a few years
I’d kind of entered into this place of
talking about identity self-worth
honesty vulnerability all these like
very kind of heavy psychological topics
that I felt were being discussed in the
men’s dating world or just by men in
general that I felt like needed to be
addressed and it started attracting a
lot of women to it that’s surprising
yeah I was very surprised and I started
actually sending so my first book is
called models attract women through
honesty and a lot of these women were
telling me they’re like your date your
advice is great not just for men but for
for us too and so I actually started
sending a number of women models and I
was like can you read this and like tell
me if it’s good so maybe if like if this
makes sense and if this actually applies
to you and and so some women started
reading it and they they all came back
and they’re like yeah actually this is
even though this was written for men
it’s better dating advice than I’ve ever
seen in any woman’s book and so I
started asking myself oh my god well why
the hell am I just writing for men so in
2013 early 2013 I rebranded the website
relaunched everything to be
gender-neutral and to just talk about
life issues in general and the other
thing too the other thing that kind of
drove it is that dating advice people
who struggle on they’re in there with
dating and relationships their
perception of their problem is something
very simple so their perception is like
oh like men never call me back after the
first date or you know women are they
like to be my friend but they’re not
sexually attracted but once you actually
like start getting deep into the problem
it turns out that really it’s it’s a
very
problem underneath their dating problem
is actually just a general life problem
you know it’s their their lifestyle or
their identity isn’t completely sorted
out for themselves or that they have
trust issues or they have a lot of
sexual shame that they need to deal with
and and the symptoms that the things
that they thought were the actual
problems are actually just symptoms of
some sort of deeper problems so I wanted
to write about those deeper problems um
and how they apply in life just in
general yeah I mean it seems like that
it happens a lot when I when there’s a
problem it’sit’s something actually
deeper rooted that is actually affecting
you know kind of my life output I mean
one of the one of the chapters in your
book is just the value of suffering it’s
called the value of suffering
how does suffering help us is kind of a
general kind of question I make the
argument in the book that pain exists
for a reason I kind of go through this
funny little biological summary of like
why panics this you know if you think of
something as simple as like stubbing
your toe or like or when you’re a kid
you touch a hot stove it hurts it hurts
really bad
and the reason it hurts is because it’s
your biologies way of teaching you not
to do that again
it’s your biologies way of teaching you
how to to learn how to how to do
something different in the future or how
to adapt and the same is true for
psychological pain you know whether it’s
a breakup or a business failure or an
insecurity or an anxiety what these
things really are is that they’re their
psychological feedback they’re a they
are feedback coming from your brain
telling you hey you need to look at this
in a different way you need to try a
different method or try a different
approach to whatever you’re doing and so
in that sense it’s it’s actually pain is
incredibly important and if we try to
avoid it or forget it we are actually
depriving ourselves of that ability to
evolve and grow past it yeah there’s a
great quote art that you say our lives
hinge not on the ability to turn lemons
into lemonade but learning to
make lemons better it’s basically
learning the art of resilience because
and look optimism is great I think
people should be optimistic positive
thinking and a lot of situations it’s
good it’s good to like stay on the sunny
side but I think and this is one problem
I have with the cell like a lot of the
self-help world is that life just sucks
sometimes like there’s really no way
around it you know it’s like if my dog
dies there’s nothing good about that
there’s no there’s no silver lining
there’s no you know it’s it just hurts
and it sucks and a lot of things in life
are like that and that I think that
needs to be okay it needs to be okay to
hurt because one like I said earlier
like a lot of our biggest lessons and a
lot of our strength comes from our
ability to withstand a lot of this pain
but um but to its we need to stay
grounded in reality we need to stay
realistic about what’s going on around
us so that we can make good decisions
for ourselves and I think a lot of
people when they get caught up on in
kind of this like delusional level of
positive thinking they start ignoring or
denying the rip the reality around them
yeah I agree 100% I mean you talk about
how growth is an endlessly iterative
process we don’t shift from being wrong
to just being right it’s kind of
something that just builds and you learn
that I mean it’s what I say is we never
go from being wrong that being right we
go from being wrong to be slightly less
wrong at another way I put it in the
book is that problems are never
permanently solved because the solution
to one problem is the genesis of the
next problem you know so maybe I have
money problems and I solve that by going
and getting a job well the job creates
new problems I the deal was politics at
work I have a really frustrating commute
every morning I have stress of the
projects I’m assigned and and then my
solutions to those problems will create
the next
higher-level problems and so what I say
is that the the key to a good life is
not getting rid of your problems the key
is actually just having very good
problems and that process of solving one
problem in creating a better
higher-level problem it in my opinion
that’s that process is actually what
brings a sense of accomplishment and
fulfillment to our lives
yeah do you think that I mean when you
were when you were coming out with
models and books like that I mean do you
see do you think that you were kind of
polarized in your perception to kind of
the comedian did you feel like there
were people either hated you or loved
you early on for sure I mean back when
models came out the majority of the
men’s dating advice industry was it was
still your classic kind of like pickup
artist stuff it was like dude you gotta
like go bang a 10 and you know like show
her this and say this to her and neg her
and and stuff like that and so I knew
when I when I was putting it out there
that I was likely setting myself up for
a lot of extremely harsh criticism but I
I believe very strongly in the message
of the book and and so initially it was
very polarizing and I got called a lot
of funny names by certain people in the
industry and by a lot of guys in the
industry but I’ve been very happy that
it seems that actually that book is
influenced and altered the course of
that industry I see not only is it one
of the best-selling books in that
industry now but it’s it’s a lot of the
other companies and coaches that exist
and then in industry I I think are
saying a lot healthier stuff these days
and then they did say five six years ago
you’ve had some pretty bold posts like
on just through your blog there’s one
called why everyone on the internet is
an asshole and then you talk about how
kind of the Internet warps perception
let’s talk let’s talk about that a
little bit like how how do you feel
about the way the internet changes
social behavior I’m absolutely
fascinated
this topic and I have been for a couple
years now and and look like I think I’m
not I’m definitely not anti I can’t be
anti Internet like it gave me my career
but I think it’s just it’s interesting
because as every new form of technology
that comes out and makes our lives
better in in so many different ways I
think it also brings a new array of
problems with it that we as a society or
a culture have to like figure out how to
surmount and I think the interesting
thing about the Internet is that because
it’s so globally connected and so
anonymous it makes it extremely easy to
objectify not just people but opinions
points of view perspectives and when you
objectify a person’s perspective it’s
it’s easy to just shit all over it and
not not fear any repercussions or not
have any sympathy for it and and so in
many ways this amazing tool that has
given us access to more information and
you know anybody in the human race has
ever had has also made it easier for us
to indulge some of our worse instincts
and to be a more judgmental and close
ourselves off one of the main points
that you make in in this post is you
talk about how confrontation has no
negative social consequences and I yeah
that’s obviously true I mean how it so I
mean how how has it changed for you like
moving from kind of this internet-based
persona into kind of a real life thing
it’s been interesting I mean I think one
thing that kind of growing up so to
speak as a writer on the Internet is
that it’s it’s really I feel like it’s
really made me impervious to criticism
there’s been a lot of funny just like
small moments over the last couple years
working with my editor my agent and
people at Harper where though they’ll be
like little things or like they’ll get
really worried that like my ego is
getting bruised like do you realize how
many people have like told me to kill
myself you know through email over the
last five years like no I
it’s totally fine this is not a big deal
so it’s weird it’s made me a made me
jaded which I think has it’s both it’s
it’s its pros and it’s cons on the one
hand I think I’m much more impervious to
maybe a lot of things that a lot of
authors go through when they’re
publishing their first book but on the
other hand I think I’m more cynical I
don’t wanna do a lot of authors which is
unfortunate okay I can definitely
understand that I mean as as this show
has kind of grown I mean it it’s like
the hate mail that we get I just it just
doesn’t affect me as much anymore just
it after a while it just doesn’t get to
you as much yeah and there’s a weird
thing and I don’t know if you’ve
experienced this but there’s a decent
citizen on both sides of the spectrum
which is the hate mail doesn’t bother me
as much anymore but when I get those
emails where people are like oh my god
you changed my life thank you so much
you know like I still appreciate it but
I feel desensitized you know like five
years ago
whenever I received an email like that
it was like it made my old days yeah oh
my god this is this is incredible
but now it’s like sweet dude thanks good
luck you know and it’s not even you know
I’m not being honest they because it’s
when you’re just bombarded with so many
messages really positive and negative
from so many people that after a while
it becomes hard to really invest a lot
in in any of them absolutely I was I was
actually just having this conversation
with a friend of mine the other day and
when we first started out when we would
get an email saying something like you
just said like that you know the show’s
changed my life it made my day and now I
mean not to take away from anyone who
sends me an email like that to us but
it’s it’s not you know it doesn’t I’m
grateful for it I’m happy for it but it
just you know that that desensitization
that occurs on both it does occur on
both ends of the spectrum
yeah where you talk about there was
another post that you did called the
pyramid scheme of positive thinking
how does that
oh yeah yeah yeah so the the articles is
the staggering bullshit of the secret
right yeah that’s right it’s the that
was the main article yeah yes and the
pyramid scheme is the section of it I
knew I knew I did this somewhere but I
was like are you sure the articles not
cold then it’s funny I actually just so
I just did I just got off another call
before I got on with you and I was
talking to this guy and it he was an
interviewing me he’s actually he’s a
speaking agent and we were talking about
the positive thinking thing and he was
saying that he like doesn’t take clients
who do that sort of thing that mode
that’s sort of like motivational
speaking type stuff right and he said
that he told me he said he literally had
this conversation once with one of these
like types of motor motivational
speakers the motivational he said what
what is your goal with doing speaking
events like what is your goal to get
across to the audience and the guy was
like well I want to inspire them to do
great things in the world and because
that the world all the world needs is is
people to be more inspired and the
speaking agent it was like well I
actually think we should probably like
figure out how to cure cancer or AIDS so
why don’t you work on that and the guy
was like oh but I can inspire people to
cure cancer AIDS and the guy the guy was
like okay so like but then what do these
people end up doing you know these these
people in the audience usually turn
around and they they decide that they
want to be a coach and they want to go
inspire people and so you get this kind
of this really funny pyramid scheme of
and this happens a lot in the online
world of people who for instance people
who will like teach a course they’ll
create a course on the internet that
teaches people how to create courses on
the internet and these people would take
and then the people will take the course
and the know go create courses on the
internet teaching other people how to
create courses on the internet and you
see this in all sorts of different ways
you know people I have met people who
are life coaches who the majority of
their clientele they’re teaching how to
become life coaches
and and it’s just this crazy thing that
just it’s pervading everywhere and I
think and a lot of what enables it is
this idea that simply feeling good is
it’s good enough you know it’s like if I
can just say a bunch of stuff that
people in my audience will be like wow
that feels great and then tell them to
go tell other people it’ll just keep
getting passed on and you know when I
guess where I put my foot down both in
the book and on my site is like no
feeling good is not good enough like if
you want to feel good just go like snort
some cocaine or something like it like
there needs to be a higher standard to a
good life than simply just feeling good
all the time right yeah man I mean I
really find it interesting I mean the
industry is definitely intriguing to say
it slightly I mean it it does feel like
a pyramid scheme and it it seems like it
kind of wraps you in and you know like
you you need to keep going back for more
it’s almost like a drug I find your
career fascinating because you you went
from you know this sort of dating aspect
to this it’s it’s not self-help but it
is weird I mean where did this formula
come from like what what else are you
doing where do you say that your content
is is hitting the most right now
it tends to be so I jokingly say you
know when I meet people in in real life
and they they say like oh what do you do
and I’m like oh I’m a writer and I go
what are you write I say I write
self-help for people who hate self-help
and it’s funny because so many people I
meet are like I think I would love you
know like I think I think the desire to
improve your life is a pretty universal
one I think everybody if they’re being
honest with themselves like wants to
have a better life and achieve more and
be more successful and feel better about
themselves but I also think there’s a
lot of people especially in the younger
generations like you know say 35 and
under who just kind of sense that a lot
of this
you know a lot of the self-help stuff
from the 70s 80s and 90s then it’s kind
of BS it’s not really not very authentic
it sells well but it’s it’s cheesy and
and so I think those are the people I’m
hitting it’s like this is I’m offering a
viable alternative all right it’s not
just the same old cliches over and over
again so then you would say that that
your content is hitting towards the
self-help industry or is it still with
the dating stuff oh it’s definitely
self-help stuff I mean it’s at this
point the dating relationship I think is
a minority portion of my audience but um
but yeah it’s weird it’s like a weird
I felt help I mean it’s technically
self-help but I kind of like go against
the grain yeah in a lot of ways so
there’s one thing that you just in my
notes is that you know you you started
out and when you were when you were kind
of starting out you you were approaching
like these these agencies to publish
your stuff like these online like
huffing Huffington Post until like that
and now they’re coming to you you’re
being interviewed by by Forbes and CNN
and advice and I mean how does how does
that switch feel for you I mean at first
it was a little bit of an ego boost
right like it’s it’s suddenly all these
publications I was practically like
begging like give my work to to get more
exposure a few years ago you know a few
years later that suddenly they’re
knocking on my door so that always that
feels nice like I think on anybody can
relate to that it feels like a little
little victory for yourself but it’s
funny it’s funny to me it’s if I stand
back and kind of remove my myself from
the equation I think it’s kind it’s a
little bit representative of the weird
place that the publishing industry is in
because of the Internet it’s like you
yeah yeah on the one hand anybody in
start a blog and start publishing on the
Internet and that’s great but the the
truth is is that you know that you have
to the people who control what gets
spread around the most they still kind
of haven’t have control and it and it’s
a situation of like the rich get richer
so back when my articles weren’t read by
many people you know like Huffington
Post didn’t want have anything to do
with me then suddenly I started having
some hit articles and developed like a
really big fan base and now it’s
Huffington Post wants to publish any
everything I write so it’s yeah it’s
just it’s a weird dynamic and I don’t
know how I feel like it there needs to
be like I don’t know the publishing and
she needs to sort it itself out in a lot
of ways and one of the ways is that
there needs to kind of be a clear path
again you go from like an unknown nobody
to like getting your work disseminated
pretty widely like right now it’s not
very clear how that happens you just
have to like try dozens of things and
hope one of them work has that has has
this whole process like affected your
sense of I mean I and like you have a
hundred thousand readers five hundred
thousand then a million and then two
million and I mean you’re just has this
affected your sense of success yeah it’s
been weird and and this is actually one
of the inspirations for the book is that
I always dreamed of a lot of like a lot
of this stuff that’s been happening to
me the last couple of years it’s
literally what I dreamed about
when I was starting out like it might in
my mid-20s right and it’s interesting
that it doesn’t feel the way you expect
it to I mean it’s great I mean it it’s
there’s no way I could ever complain
about anything that’s gone on the last
couple of years but it’s it’s weird
because it doesn’t it doesn’t feel as
good as you expect it to feel the
benefits aren’t as good as you you
expected them to be the problems are
bigger than you expected them to be it
complicates lives life in ways that you
didn’t expect and so sick experiencing a
large success like that is it’s actually
a very strange it’s a very good
experience
but it’s a very complicated experience
and this kind of being the first like
really big success in my life it was
very disorienting at times it was very
strange it kind of made me start asking
like does it really matter like 2
million people read me or if it’s like a
hundred thousand like does this really
met cuz at a certain point it just
doesn’t even feel real anymore like the
difference the difference between a half
a million and two million like it
doesn’t even feel real it’s it’s all
just it’s just a digit you know and and
so started really getting me to ask
myself a lot of these questions about
and I talked about in the book which
it’s just like what actually matters
here like what is what is actually
driving my life and what should actually
drive my life and and it kind of put me
into this like little mini existential
crisis for a little while as I started
writing the book and and that’s kind of
a lot of like where this these ideas
came from yeah I can I can imagine man I
mean it’s it seems like I mean these are
all pretty healthy questions I mean did
you do you happen to kind of go stoic
with this or I mean there’s a little bit
of Buddhism in this to kind of label it
and I mean how how did you get to a
point where you were like okay well you
know the value of suffering and you know
we kind of reframing positive positive
thinking and I mean like like what was
what was a driving factor was there any
certain philosophy that you were kind of
modeling well I was very big into Zen
Buddhism when I was in college and I
it’s interesting I kind of got away when
I graduated it kind of got away from it
but like that’s like my roots is a Zen
Buddhist background and going through my
20s I was very highly motivated by a lot
a lot of very conventional goals you
know it’s like I wanted to have a
successful business I wanted to have I
wanted to be own my own business so I
want to have a lot of free time in one
of the travel world I want to have you
know they are amazing people and have
amazing relationships and
and it was kind of what I was talking
about at the beginning of the podcast so
I had a lot of goals based on more more
more get more succeed more have more do
more and that was great and then what
happened is I started achieving a lot of
those goals you know so I I did I did
travel the whole world and I did see all
these amazing places and I did have a
bunch of amazing experiences and I did
build a successful business and I became
a successful writer and and it left me
like I said in that kind of like that
weird state of existential crisis or
like Oh what does this all mean well you
know what why none of this matters
wonder what am i doing with my life and
and actually I noticed that a lot of
that Zen stuff came back started coming
out you know I I always tell people that
my writing is it’s my own form of
therapy for myself like everything I
write it’s not that like I know all the
answers and I’m telling everybody else
what to do it’s it’s literally like I
have the same question and so I’m trying
to write my way out of it and so as I
was writing all this stuff I noticed
that the Zen stuff which is extremely
similar to stoicism it’s all about you
know Zen and then they all they talked
about a lot about not knowing and how
how to get comfortable in a place of not
knowing and you know Buddhism itself is
very big on you know life is a form of
suffering and you have to like detach
yourself from your emotions and so all
the stuffs are coming out again and and
it’s funny because I guess I didn’t
really realize how big of an influence
it it actually had been on me until
recently yeah it was there I mean was
there any single kind of like mentor or
someone that you’ve had influencing you
through this process um not a specific
person no I mean I’ve always had like
writers and artists that I’ve looked up
to as like good examples of like this
sort of stuff that I want to do
but yeah there’s nobody I mean again the
weird thing about internet publishing
these days is like there’s no real
nobody’s really figured it out yet you
know we’re all still kind of grasping in
the dark trying to figure out what what
works like what’s gonna be sustainable
yeah I mean who so then who was someone
that influenced you like kind of
remotely so I mean there are some
writers that I really looked up to a big
fan a huge huge fan of David Foster
Wallace and his particular ly his
non-fiction work I think it’s just like
I mean his fictions fantastic as well
but it’s nonfiction work is staggeringly
brilliant hunter is Thompson Alan Watts
is a big one I don’t know if you’re a
South Park fan but there’s a South Park
episode called Simpsons did it and it’s
basically the entire South Park episode
is like the kids keep coming up with
these like crazy ideas and then it’s
like every time they go out to start
doing it it’s like oh no Simpsons did it
episode 328 and the whole the whole
episode is basically just a joke of like
every unique idea the South Park
creators have had the Simpsons already
had it and I feel like that I feel like
that like with Alan Watts it’s like any
like really powerful idea
I feel like I have it’s like Alan Watts
already wrote 50 years ago mark I really
appreciate your time and what’s the next
what’s kind of the next journey for you
what’s the next step for you right now
it’s I’m still kind of basking in the
afterglow of this book release and
finally winding down with the interviews
I’m really looking forward to just
getting back to the website getting back
to the blog I’ve got a ton of ideas for
articles I want to write but I just
haven’t had the time to write them and
then I think you know probably after
maybe a year like maybe end of next year
I’ll get cracking on the next book so
where can where can people find your
mark Manson net and and the book is
called the subtle art of not giving a
fuck a counterintuitive approach to
living a good life and it’s available
everywhere aisle retailers Amazon
everywhere awesome you said it forming
men thank you so much for your time Marc
I really appreciate it man thanks
exFAT me this is the human experience we
will see you guys next week thank you
guys so much for listening
you