Transcript for James W. Jesso – Psilocybin, Plant Medicine, Deconstructing the Ego & Surrender

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what’s up guys Xavier Kassala here with

the human experience and Wow

we had James gesso on covering his work

on psychedelic experience and still

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doing thank you guys so much for the

human experiences diving into the realms

of the psychedelic experience with our

guest James

yesö James my man welcome to HIV

thanks I’ve ever so James give us D give

us the about me man like where did you

grow up how did you get into this

material all that

I I grew up

jumping around towns as my father was a

construction worker following the work

here in southwestern Ontario which is

where I’m living now mostly London

Mississauga Kitchener for anyone that

knows anything about the geography of

Ontario but my parents were good healthy

god-fearing Christians and I was a

fairly sheltered little boy until around

14 or so when I got exposed to the kids

that my parents wanted me to have

nothing to do with which eventually got

me into just sort of the early high

school Canadian I guess story which is

getting exposed to cannabis and becoming

a bit of a stoner and the long and the

short of it is eventually I got the

taking psychedelics and in my mid-20s

early 20s I got to taking psychedelics

alongside with AWS pretty much whatever

drug I could get my hands on

increasingly more destructively until I

had messed up my whole sense of self and

my whole sense of what it was I was

doing with my life became very confused

and sick and had that be a catalyst for

me to somehow reach into the very same

pool that had gotten me lost to find my

way back out again which was to build a

an ally ship with civil siphon mushrooms

to bring my life back into clarity which

essentially launched me on the path to

becoming who I am today which is

whatever my bio reads but I write I

travel around I public talks and I run a

podcast called that line radio yeah man

um you know and a lot of your work and

we can get into the psychedelic side and

we’re going to do that very soon and

just a sort of cautionary note I mean we

don’t you know advocate anything illegal

here doing chains uh nope depending on

if in your country that you’re listening

to it’s it’s legal to advocate in which

case so I just want to put that out

there so I mean your work seems to

center around the shadow and exposing

the light within the show

why why is that

I’d say that it it was because during my

early phases of I guess developing a

mature relationship with psychedelic

psilocybin in particular I realized that

I was all confused and and feeling all

sorts of very dark we could say negative

emotions in a very unskillful way in a

very repressive way in a way that

trapped them inside of me and thus

trapped me inside of myself with them

and that a lot of my psilocybin

experiences even still but especially in

those first that first wave of the

healing usage was about ringing that

stuff up it was about learning how to

soften into the vulnerable and often

uncomfortable honesty of just feeling

shitty feeling shame feeling loneliness

guilt sadness inadequacy grief feeling

these things and then seeing on the

outro you know all along being somewhat

guided by this inner voice of the wise

consciousness be it mind or the mushroom

or some mysterious marriage between the

two all the while being guided being

shown being offered realization that it

is the feeling process that carries this

painless suffering the feeling process

of cathartic

dark etc it carries it from within

through the body through the surface of

the experience and out in a way and in

doing so creates a nourishment almost

like a decomposition of one’s stagnant

emotional repression so as to nourish

the sense of wonder the sense of growth

and the possibilities of one’s own

maturation following that that catharsis

it feels like such an important part of

who we are this the other side and it’s

also the part that we we hide from and

yet are inundated with constantly so to

me I felt like one of the most important

things for me to represent in this was

that other side of like a yeah it sucks

sometimes to take psychedelics it like


but that’s not a bad thing and if we

believe it to be a bad thing because

we’re conditioned with all this let’s

just say underdeveloped perspective on

what the psychedelic experience means

underdeveloped mean somewhat immature to

say it’s all about fun and it’s all

about this and talk about whatever

without the inclusion of the of the work

then we’re going to get ourselves in

trouble when the that hard stuff comes

up no matter what it will eventually

come up we’re going to get ourselves in

trouble because we won’t know what to

deal with it so that’s why I focus on

that aspect of the psychedelic specter

or at least that’s why I made a case for

its importance to lay a different

foundation for how we can relate to the

psychedelic experience to play in the

wonder but also the tempest of suffering

that it can also awaken inside of us

absolutely you know in my own dives into

its like experience mostly with

ayahuasca I found it’s very much like an

onion of your soul and it’s kind of like

taking one layer off at a time and kind

of stripping your ego away removing this

part of yourself and you know whether

that brings up healing for you I think

that’s on your own merit I mean that’s

kind of whatever is necessary for you to

step into the next phase of your

existence the next part of your

existence that’s that’s kind of what it

shows you hmm

I like this term one taste you could

take that to a place of non-duality

which is where the sense of self the

sense of I which you for the most part

probably identify with us being Xavier

and I identify with as James sort of

that layers of the onion peel back to

the point in which I am no longer James

I am that I am that that fuller

everything at the sort of base of the

onion there’s nothing but then there’s

the one taste that can be looked at in

so far as our emotions when we get to a

place for me a really healing beautiful

place is when I’m in a psychedelic

experience which may or may not be

catalyzed by drugs but I’m in a place

where it is sad

maybe I’m facing deep grief that is

almost beyond myself that it’s not just


my own suffering but the grief or the

suffering of others that I care about

and it hurts and it and it really deeply

hurts but at the same time it feels good

and it feels right and it feels it feels

just and it feels nourishing even while

at the same time it hurts and there’s

that one taste place as well


yeah there’s there’s there’s definitely

different layers all the way down yeah I

really like the one taste analogy you

know there seems to be this sort of

psychedelic Renaissance occurring right

now in our time I think within our

generation where we are seeing past this

sort of curtain of pharmaceutical drugs

where the side effects are listed as you

know suicide and and whatever else and

we’re moving into the sort of realm of

of looking for answers with these


I call them medicines ayahuasca is not a

pleasant experience like I don’t I don’t

drink ayahuasca to you know go and party

with my friends I drink ayahuasca

because it shows me a part of myself

that I can’t I mean through meditation

and then other ways you can see this but

it’s kind of like you know people use

the analogy with ayahuasca that it’s

like 10 years of therapy in a few hours

four hours eight hours so how did

psilocybin do this for you because

there’s all of this research coming out

about so Simon being neurogenic meaning

it regrows the cells in your brain I

mean how does this I’ve been do this in

your experience

a lot to unpack there insofar as I just

want to make a couple points and the

things that you said there for example

the statement that ayahuasca can be like

ten years of therapy in an evening I

really think that and this applies with

with all the psychedelics whether or not

at 10 years of therapy that you’ve

progressed through or almost nothing

that you’ve progressed through or ten

years of therapy that you’re going to

need to have afterwards really depends

on on how on how it’s held and and what

you come back to and then how it lands

in you as you come back to to the world

around you and so I definitely see how

pharmaceutical industry has really

distorted the Hippocratic oath in a way

and the whole economic system around the

money and politics of school and

medicine has really distorted a lot of

things it seems like the emergence of

psychedelics being non-patentable if

that’s a word is really flipping that on

its head it’s also going in for

something that I guess in a way very new

and very groundbreaking but also

seemingly obvious in it’s truthful

treatment of whatever ails us at the

core of our soul the core of our being

because it seems to dissolve away the

normal patterns of emotional and

psychological behavior which in doing so

dissolves away the typical guards

defense postures that we’ve inherited or

maybe developed over the course of our

lives to protect ourselves from pain and

suffering but in doing so have sort of

locked ourselves in these stressful

contorted hyper-vigilant negativity

biased perceptions of the world and of

ourselves and ultimately just creates

degenerative issues in our in our mind

and in our body and the psychedelics

seem to soften all of those things and

bring up something new and this is

getting into talking about my experience

with why psilocybin helped me do this

because it seemed to get down some times

quickly sometimes slow and agonizing way

to a core sense of Who I am

and that wasn’t always like I said

before comfortable but it allowed me to

let go and then at that core there’s

some sort of shift in how I see myself

or how whatever events that happened

previously in my life that left me

guarded but left me angry that left me

hurt that how I see myself and how those

events have landed in me shifts they

land differently on my way back up to my

orb down to my normal baseline of

consciousness and in that there’s almost

a placebo effect in a way which is that

for me it changes the mind

it changes the inner workings of

ourselves and manifests as the

physicalities as the neuro immunological

endocrine system and then in turn we can

walk through in a healthier way

but again this depends on how the space

is held how prepared are you to go and

how prepared as a person they’re with

you what kind of support do you have on

the way back what kind of support you

have back at home what kind of changes

are you making or not making after the

process and having add now a lot of

research as in like underground research

since the sort of like psychedelic

Inquisition that went on for a while

there in science and then above-ground

research we’re really laying a fantastic

foundation for how to merge the tools of

psychedelics inside of a therapeutic


yeah I just you know I I don’t even

think it’s underground anymore you know

and I think at first and with the work

that maps is doing the Hefner and Stu’s

doing I feel like this is this is the

next evolution to the next phase you

know a big reason for why I chose you to

be on this show is because I feel like

we’re moving into this realm where

people are like in the 80s we have this

just say no campaign and I was I was

brainwashed by back campaign

I made sure drugs were evil and bad and

bad for you you know it took me a long

time just to start forming my own

opinion about you know what and drugs

quote drugs are you in your book

decomposing the shadow you make this

excellent parable from Star Wars where

you talk about how Yoda trains Luke


can we let’s get into that a little bit

well I haven’t really entertained that

idea in a little while not since I am

release it on reality how much not too

long ago can you ask me a more specified

question about what insofar as that

concept you’d like me to expand on how

do you think that becoming you know this

sort of Jedi warrior is related to

ingesting psilocybin

well I mean there’s obvious correlations

there if you look at sort of the deep

philosophy of Star Wars in and around

the concept of becoming a warrior of

light against against the darkness that

for me sits in a positive way in my

psychology but in my specific reference

of Luke and Yoda in the dag of a swamp

what I was getting at was here it comes

this person who is seeking to find

themselves empowered with the birthright

that is there simply as being born in

who they are and that they go to this

swamp to meet this master so if we’re

just looking at this from an archetypal

way so like the deep forest as like the

archetype of going into the mind so he

goes into the swamps the dark places and

they’re in the dark places is a teacher

that has obvious reference to mushrooms

here because the teacher is like small

and like sort of like bringing and weird

and lives in this little hut in the

ground but he Luke develops an ongoing

relationship with this teacher and

slowly but surely the teacher by saying

these these large sort of broad

metaphysical philosophical phrases which

coming from anyone with any less wisdom

would be platitudes they would be trite

but coming from him it’s with deep

profound wisdom and Luke goes through

the swamps with this wisdom whispering

in his ear that is simple but clear and

the ultimate

test for Luke was whether or not he

could go in to the depth of his greatest

fear to have the courage to go in and

not just to go in but to go in without

his weapon that is to say to go in

unguarded and in that place he comes

face to face with what scares him but he

did not go in unguarded he freaks out he

attack and he becomes highly disturbed

when he sees that the very thing he’s

afraid of is actually himself I mean

there’s there’s definitely more layers

to the story there but this to me is

very similar to the psilocybin

experience you enter a ceremonial space

it could be a room it could be the woods

and either way you’re going into your

mind you’re going into this places and

all the while as you’re sort of

navigating journeying through your mind

guided by this sort of inner over voice

that’s whispering these is wise little

snippets little soundbite you’re guided

and the greatest test I’ve found are

most certainly the moments when you’re

being encouraged to look at what scares

you and if you don’t go in with

surrender if you don’t go in willing to

let all your weapons and defenses down

then the very thing that you will be

exposed to will hurt you it will harm

you instead of heal you which is what it

can do and so that was my reference the

Star Wars thing that’s why I but again

there’s that and also at the time I was

just eating out hardcore and how awesome

the eye strikes back yeah it really is

yeah man I mean I think I think that’s

really well stated and so a great

metaphor analogy to the psilocybin

experience a psychedelic experience and

you know what we’re experiencing while

we’re ingesting these divinity compounds

let’s get into some science you know you

talk about how there’s this increase in

functional connectivity and the

reduction of blood flow to the medial

prefrontal cortex like what is since

I’ve been doing to treat issues such as

depression why is it so helpful for this

Wow hey I haven’t brushed up on the

research papers in a little while but

I’m going to take this question maybe in

a different direction and possibly

you’re intending not that long ago I was

facing some intense post-traumatic

stress disorder which was bringing on an

anxiety condition and depression and all

these other things and in that I started

just reading the literature like crazy

I had already been familiar with you

know a lot of the literature in sperm as

the sort of pharmacokinetics of

psilocybin and I decided I was going to

write a paper I was going to write a

long essay this is my perspectives on

how and why psilocybin can treat and

possibly cure I’m not a doctors enough

to hesitate was saying that with chronic

depression as I went through it and I

hit the books hard on this and then had

to drop the project because I went

touring and then when I sat back down to

look at it again I had realized that

I was overtly intellectualizing my

understanding of the process as an

attempt to dissociate myself from the

turbulent emotional discomfort that I

was in on the regular because of my

illness I was facing and that feeling

that illness having resolved a lot in my

travels I was able to look at it a

different way and I saw that psilocybin

is ability to reduce blood flow and the

medial prefrontal cortex and posterior

cingulate which are said to be

overactive in people with depression and

and then to possibly reduce the fear

response which would say that it has

something to do with maybe reducing the

synaptic complexity of the amygdala

which is associated with trauma but

synaptic complexity all the while

increasing functional connectivity in

the brain which is sort of like it all

sort of speaking to itself in different

ways while surprisingly enough reducing

global brain function totally it doing

that that’s not how its fixing the

depression the sort of neuro centric

causation model or take the drug fix the

brain problem I think is incomplete if

not dangerous and that I believe that

what we’re seeing and I really

appreciate a man named Bernardo Castro

for his language around this what we’re

seeing when we’re looking at the brain

scans the fMRI

this is his words it is important that

we don’t confuse the cause of a thing

with what something looks like

to me what’s happening when we eat

psilocybin is yes you know the

psilocybin in the mushroom is getting

dephosphorylation the gut converting it

into solisten which is crossing the

blood-brain barrier and working as a

neuromodulator agent to modify blood

flow in the brain and we see the

association’s of how that modified blood

flow you know what the associations to

depression are and we can hypothesize

around that but I really believe that

what’s happening is a subjective change

that’s the important piece to look at

the mushrooms are going in and what

we’re seeing and all that physical stuff

is what it looks like objectively for

the person consuming the mushrooms to go

in and resolve the unresolved emotional

trauma emotional issues to shift that

inner subjective experience into a angle

or a calibre which enables them to have

more self-confidence maybe or sense of

wonder sense of beauty of joy of coming

to terms with whatever it is they’re

coming to terms with and thus creating

over time a reduction in a

hyper-vigilant stress response apparatus

which slowly degenerates every part of

our body and mind and that that for me

that’s why the psilocybin can help us do

that I mean maybe I’m leaning a little

bit more on the mystical side of things

here but I do think it’s the subjective

change that for me cause the most

tension despite how fun and interesting

all the pharmacology words are yeah you

know the mainstream is so far away from

the so removed away from this and I

think mushrooms are still a Schedule one

substance or at least in Europe it’s a

class one drug so that means that they

have absolutely no medical usage

whatsoever I’m looking at this study

published by The Lancet Psychiatric

Journal this is from last year they took

this clinical trial where they had 12

volunteers for three weeks and an active

dose of MA

shrooms psilocybin was able to lift

resistant depression in all of the 12

volunteers for three months so if you

have Western medicine on one side and

then you have this counterculture

movement on this on the other side for

Western medicine you are trapped in this

loop of going back to your doctor going

getting more antidepressants you’re

you’re stuck in this loop you’re their

consumer you’re just a consumer right so

if there’s a substance out there like

suicide than just a fungus that grows

out of out of Cal you know

it’s amazing and another reason another

huge reason that I want to create more

awareness about this is because I think

we had Rick Doblin on from maps and I

got this email after that interview from

someone in the military they said

something like thank you so much for

doing the episode that you did with Rick

after I heard it I was very divided on

what I should do about this they were

suffering from PTSD they were deployed

we had just served in Iraq fighting for

our lives and they come back and they’re

there these broken individuals and

there’s no answer for this there’s no

treatment for this it sort of he follows

me that we’re still in the midst of this

and that Western medicine has failed us

as a culture mm-hmm I’ve actually just

recently heard a statistic that I can’t

quote so it’s totally hearsay but that

more veterans have now died from suicide

as an extension of post-traumatic stress

disorder than have died actually in the

war that they participated in yeah I

mean it’s a stunning staggering

statistic that it’s scary man because

these people are fighting for our

so-called freedom and they come back and

they suffer from PTSD and we have we

don’t have a solution for them yet but

you know it’s conversations like this

one that are help paving the way to

changing that

James so when a person someone that

doesn’t have experienced any experience

with suicide and is ingesting mushrooms

like me where should they be what’s a

good set and setting mindset for this

that’s great it kind of is a question

that allows me to address some other

things that you’re saying just there

before which is that I don’t really

think it’s responsible to advocate for

the taking of psilocybin mushrooms a

fungus that just grows out of

also decomposing wood as well but to

just take them if you’re you know

suffering you have depressions

especially if you have trauma personally

that didn’t really go super well for me

with trauma because it’s very easy to

hurt yourself even more so if what

you’re facing is really deep and I think

this is why there’s so much positive

results from the studies that are

happening now I mean I I mean a lot of

people who are very positively affected

by their you know recreational and then

beyond recreational say spiritual

therapeutic relationship with mushrooms

who have never seen the therapist and

have never no intention at all to ever

sit with a psychedelic psychotherapist

but I know a lot of people who will

never touch mushrooms again and are

frightened from psychedelics because

they were exposed to things that they

weren’t ready to and I believe the safe

structured environment that academia is

producing or psychedelic psychotherapy

is an essential ingredient for people to

get the positive the results that

they’re looking for however I also

believe that the various qualities of

safety and guidance that a se academic

or therapeutic environment can offer is

repeatable like you can do this on your

own though it’s much more risky and

there’s there’s a lot of factors to

consider and one of those factors being

the chances of the person leading you is

not likely a trained psychotherapist

with specifically the desire to help you

target what you’re going for and come up

with good results I get this question a

lot what are sort of my suggestions

around starting out and I think the

first suggestion that I have is if

you’re going to take mushrooms and I’m

talking to the

people here who aren’t Psychonauts

they’re not looking to take a shift in

their relationship this is people who

have never taken it before and are

either intrigued by the concept or

looking to face something heavy inside

of themselves I would suggest doing them

with friends doing them with other

people because there’s a much greater

sense of safety that can be held and

that it’s that sense of safety that’s

very important if you’re with multiple

people and you can look to each other to

help each other then it’s likely that

you’ll be much more able to relax

surrender and be present with what’s

coming up now finding people can be

problematic because maybe you don’t know

anyone maybe with only people that you

know just like to eat mushrooms and

smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol and

go to the bar which certainly isn’t the

best way to make use of medicine but I

think going in with other people is

important at the very least having

someone who you trust having someone to

sit with you while you go in and start

small start really small I know that

there’s sort of a threshold dose for me

it’s like taking so much that I don’t

have to try to get there it pushes me

there and I’m just sorting it out on the

way back but not so much that the place

that it pushes me to makes absolutely

zero sense and I’m trying to like Atlas

trying to carry in the weight of this

like cosmos size ID on my way back and

end up doing no personal work at all but

for the entry level the last thing you

want to do is hurt yourself in the

process of starting small I think is

good and with somebody who you can trust

and if you have a therapist that you can

talk to or somebody that you can talk to

about this this is really important for

you to better understand your experience

to apply what you’ve learned journaling

is a good way of checking in with

yourself and getting a sense of of what

you’ve gone through it’s definitely not

a replacement for a therapist it’s a

great adjunct and it could be good even

if you don’t have a therapist to talk to

if we can’t share our experiences then

eventually we might accidentally occult

them and if we occult them then we might

not be able to learn from them and the

sense of desperateness

that comes from Zurich say you last

effort to cure your depression not


can be far greater than not having had

the mushroom experience with all yeah

is there anything anything more I should

address them you know for me it’s like

this sort of decompression phase when

you’re leaving a journey such as that

and I think it’s a great note that you

mentioned that you should do it with

other people I agree completely you

definitely don’t want to be sitting

alone in your room in front of your

computer on until assignment I think was

Terence Mckenna that talked about how

you know when you take these mushrooms

to take them in a completely dark

environment have everything completely

dark as you enter this year of existence

but also for you know this sort of post

loading you know just being aware of

your your own body and your own kind of

self-awareness and knowing thyself

enough to have that safety net of other

people but also not going too far and

starting small just like you said you

know there’s a head but I was just going

to say I was going to shift into the

next next thing of this so if you if you

want to add something go ahead yeah I

was just going to say that those

suggestions you know they’re not they’re

not prescription they’re just

descriptions descriptions of things of

things that have worked there’s there’s

so many different angles there’s a great

value to be had in taking mushrooms by

yourself what Kalindi EE calls the

journey of the alone into the alone

because if there’s even just one more

person there the persona remains I mean

there’s nothing necessarily specifically

advantageous about going in by yourself

if you’re treating something heavy or

you’re inexperienced because it could

make it it can make it a lot worse i

mean even parents the Bard himself ended

up not taking mushrooms for several

years because I believe he got

frightened by something so he’s a great

glass for possibly his uh his usage

advice might not be the most stable they

were into some really heavy stuff and we

made I think they found a cache of

mushrooms when they were in South

America and I don’t know what they were

looking for were doing there we’re gonna

have Dennis on next week actually so

he’s coming back on four

second degree soft ask him again but um

I think we’ve covered a lot of ground

here James I mean we’ve covered these

these cultural aspects of this

demonization of this compound of this

medicine also you know we’ve talked

about how to properly take them and what

to expect from in a minute if in my

opinion if you’re not scared if you’re

not slightly scared of what’s coming

probably doing it wrong yeah yeah new

greenie I would yes it’s a

simplification that might you know if

you try to scale it too much it can lose

its efficacy as a suggestion but once

you learn the power it’s not a fear or

scared because of like oh no it’s more

like a reverence like in deep respect

like I’ve had deep it so I’m almost less

of a fear but just like deep respect I

almost think about mythology around the

booming voice of God that’s like like

what is it that movie with Jay and

Silent Bob maybe Dogma or something and

God at the end is Alanis Morisette okay

and that she has people speak angels

speak for her because to hear the sound

of her voice explodes your heart you

know so it’s like that kind of respect

yeah that reverence is absolutely

necessary man there’s there’s a respect

for all of these compounds whatever it

may be whether it’s else D or psilocybin

or ayahuasca we’re you know they’re pre

journey you know you humbly bow and and

I think you said it earlier but it’s

just this aspect of surrendering because

you have this ego sense of yourself and

you’re coming into an adventure like

that strong and you think that you’re

going to defeat something you’re going

to have a bad day it’s going to be a bad

day yet it’s Luke not leaving the

lightsaber behind behind

what’s up guys you’ve been listening to

our episode with chains gesso to hear

the rest of digit so get to the human

extinct on flashing bumpers and you can

help support what we’re doing here help

keep the show alive help us get gasps

help us go longer help us get into a

video format and I’m going to eventually

get into a vehicle mat here so

definitely get to the human xpcom slash

members and remember today thank you

guys so much for why do I look like a

human experience podcast podcast

the most easy and perhaps cop-out answer

I can give a right off the bat is that

my life is my own human experience so

already the title is relatable so then

you start listening or I start listening

and I’m hearing about things that aren’t

really talked about and subjects that

don’t quite come up because they’re

considered with sort a boo perhaps

especially from where I’m from I’m from

Texas and nothing not the hater effect

but I am surrounded by a lot of people

who are how do I say not everyone is as

open-minded any podcast that encourages

you to be open-minded in my opinion is a

positive thing this thing the other

thing I really enjoy is that no matter

what the subject matter is the

conversation is always captivating to

listen to I try to find podcasts that

are very easy to understand and easy to

listen to but not so easy that it’s like

they’re dumbing it down for me and I

think this podcast was a very fine

balance of that the the interview is the

subject matter are stimulating and

there’s things I didn’t really know

about so I find myself learning an

immense amount but it’s not straining

it’s not draining it doesn’t make me

exhausted and to be honest you know when

I am working all day and I have to spend

you know what two hours a day in traffic

maybe three I don’t want to be drained

even more by something that I’m choosing

to listen to I can be passive and just

listen to these two people connecting

and maybe connecting sometimes but at

the end of it all it’s a positive

experience it’s stimulating and my ears

enjoy it so really what I’m trying to

say is that there’s no reason not to

listen to the podcast so why not just

listen and if you’re a human and you

have extreme

and you want to have more transcendent

experiences I think the human experience

is giving the tools that people could

need if you’re at the human experience I

just want you to know you guys are

awesome you rock and keep doing what

you’re doing you know this is just a

testament to our commitment to bring you

guys life-changing stuff that will

affect your life in a positive way and

you know my my deepest most grateful

heart melting thanks to Hannelore who

submitted this for us and Wow

what a huge huge testament to everything

we’re doing here so hope you guys

enjoyed this little blurb of her telling

us why she listens to it Rafi and it

motivates you to become a member of what

we’re doing

thanks guys

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