Transcript for Gabor Maté M.D. – When The Body Says No

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we are the intimate strangers thank you

for listening the human experience is

traversing the realms of the mind-body

connection as we speak to my guest dr.

Gabor Matta dr. Monte it’s an honor sir

welcome back to hxp

Thank You dr. Monte your work has

affected millions of people worldwide

why do you think people connect so much

to the language in the potency of your

message it’s only that there’s a medical

physician as a doctor I have the

experience and the scientific knowledge

and language to put into words and to

explain and you might scientific

language a medical language something

that people already know intuitively so

in a Western world there’s this

separation between intuitive knowledge

and what we call scientific knowledge

what I happen to know is that the

teachings of intuitive knowledge about

the mind-body unity and the

inseparability of our emotional and

spiritual life summer physical existence

has been proven by modern science and

voluminous research and I’m able to have

access to that research and able to

translate that to people so really what

people find themselves doing when they

read my work where they hear me speak is

that they recognize the truth of their

own experience and they have if you

because they need this in this world

some validation for their own experience

now ideally people shouldn’t have to

have their experience relative by an

expert but in our world which denigrates

into the knowledge and the knowledge of

the heart it’s awful to people to have

that knowledge confirmed by science and

that’s I think what I do reasonably well

yeah yeah I mean why do you think

Western medicine is so backwards in this

regard why why do you think that more

physicians aren’t discussing this in

this way when you you say that what

certain medicine Western medicine

considers disease idiopathic which means

they don’t know what causes it I mean it

why do you think this is well Western

science for hundreds of years now

separating the mind from the body and

that’s not strictly a function of

science that’s really reflects the

nature of this to say that we’re living

because we do live in a society where

human beings for the most part are

considered to be consider utilitarian

value in other words the value of an

individual is defined by how much wealth

they create for others or for themselves

or how much they consume which is

strictly a physical way of defining

human beings so the ideology of

separating the mind from the body

permeates the society not just the

medical profession not just the

scientific world but the whole society

and medicine being a part of this

culture reflects the general ideological

perspective number one number two

physicians are comfortable with

quantifiable data such as laboratory

results and x-ray results and imaging

findings then are comfortable with

issues that are emotionally

uncomfortable for example trauma which

is a major factor in all the illnesses

as far as I’m concerned especially

mental illness addiction and so on but

also in physical illness like cancer

rheumatoid arthritis multiple sclerosis

even though the research shows the unity

of mind and body in research shows the

emotional antecedents of physical


for most physicians even that the

training doesn’t touch upon that that’s

very uncomfortable territory and so they

tend to resist or not to pay attention

to that kind of research or knowledge

despite the fact that it’s published in

major medical journals and scientific

publications so it’s that split that

permeates the whole society that’s also

reflected in the medical profession and

also of course doctors are short untimed

they’re stressed people reoffend

themselves they’re traumatized people

and and so that a that I want to deal

with their own stuff and secondly to

delve into the mind-body unity and and

and to talk to people about their

emotional lives in the context of

physical illness that demands time and

in modern metric medical economics

doctors don’t have that kind of time and

also is one more thing which is the very

success of Western medicine I mean let’s

face it my 91 year old mother-in-law

would have not had been alive for the

six years now at least or more had she

not had amazing heart valve surgery and

I know people who are brought back from

the brink of death by the successes and

amazing achievements of Western medicine

and just because we’re so very

successful with those physical

modalities we tend to ignore the other

part of it now most disease is not

amenable to these heroic interventions

but we tend not to recognize that

because we’re we are successful we’re so

spectacularly successful right

I mean what what is happening dr. Mattei

when they’re you know between the brain

and the body when we you mentioned

trauma when we experience trauma when

we’re suffering from disease and illness

and how how do you feel that the body is

kind of sending these signals into the

brain well it’s very very simple if I

were in the same room with you right now

and if I threatened you with a weapon or

physically became aggressive towards you

the first thing you’ll experience

appropriately enough would be fear

if you didn’t experience fear you’d be

in trouble because that fear would then

help you alert you that there’s danger

and you need to do something about it

now in response to the emotion of fear

the hypothalamus in your brain would

release some hormones which look

inactivated another gland in the brain

called the pituitary gland which would

then send messages to your adrenal gland

on top of your kidneys to release the

stress hormones adrenaline and cortisol

adrenaline cortisol will help you mount

the flight-or-fight response to give you

more energy to give you more strength

they make it faster they permit you

enable you to mount a defensive response

without which you would not survive

that’s in a short-term but those same

hormones if they lasted at a high level

in your body for a long time would

significantly damage your health we know


so adrenaline will increase your risk of

heart disease and stroke scenario blood

vessels make you anxious cortisol within

your bones also rate your intestines

suppress your immune system increase the

risk of heart disease make you depressed

so on and so on and so on so in other

words the short-term triggering or the

stress response helps you survive the

long-term triggering of it kills you or

causes illness and what trauma does when

trauma happens to people and usually

happens in childhood it potentially it’s

a long term activation of our stress

responses so that let’s see if you’re

traumatized child who were say just to

take an extreme example beaten by your

parents mm-hmm you might have a lot of

fear out there in the world you always

be would be very defensive because you

believe that the world is very hostile

that’s how you experienced it now if you

live in a hostile world you’re always in

a fear mode and you’re and you’re very

quickly triggered into that stress

response that fight-or-flight response

so that means those hormones are now

acting against you rather than for you


mentioned early trauma and also triggers

long-term processes of inflammation in

the body so that children that were

traumatized you measure a certain number

of inflammatory proteins in their

bloodstream as adults they’re elevated

because of the CH other experience so

they’re more likely to get disease of

inflammation including heart disease

including autoimmune disease and so on

so there are many many many ways that I

could really spend the whole day just

talking about the ways in which trauma

potentially it’s Onis but really it’s a

very simple straightforward

physiological connection there’s nothing

abstruse about it there’s nothing hidden

about it right I mean what is the

difference between a person who is

someone who has suffered trauma and

reacting healthily towards stress and

someone someone who who probably you

know had isn’t living a normal life and

and dealing with minor kind of hassles I

mean what’s that what’s the difference

that’s happening there in regards to

dealing with stress and how a person

reacts to a trigger event

well the traumatized person reacts with

an extreme overreaction to mind a lot of

the minor events a non traumatic person

will react appropriately so that the

stress response

you know let’s say you’re not

traumatized but I will threaten you

somehow then you wouldn’t want a stress

response that be appropriate to the

situation and once the situation was

resolved your stress response would

abate and you move back to your normal

regular healthy state but if you were

traumatized person your reaction would

be over the top you would have your

brain would be flooded by the stress

hormones and you’d actually have less

capability to know what to do in order

to protect yourself and the emotional

and physiological impact of the incident

will last a lot longer and for

traumatized people this happens day

after day after day because they get to

be triggered by whatever happens in a

relationship with their spouse or

partner or fellow workers or employees

or employers right there in the street

you know they react to everything

whether they’re aware of it or not and

director everything in a way that is

beyond the needs of the actual situation

and that’s a lot longer than a situation

so they’re constantly under stress

whether they recognize it or not enough

and I don’t because when you’re used to

stress a stress State feels normal to

you so you don’t even know that you’re

being stressed hmm yeah that’s fair it’s

very intriguing when you you also

discuss that who gets sick and who

doesn’t isn’t accidental can you expound

on that a bit well in my book when the

body says no which explores these stress

disease connection I interviewed a lot

of people and I also with illnesses and

I also do upon my own clinical

experience as a physician and a

palliative care doctor and truly over

time you get to notice that especially

when you as the family physician as I

was you get to see people before they

got sick and you get to see what

families see the specialist only sees

people after they’re sick no healthy

person was no specialist so that the

specialist never sees them in their free

disease state as I did and what I found

that the people that were prone to

chronic illnesses like cancer autoimmune

disease like rheumatoid arthritis

colitis Crohn’s disease chronic fatigue

Lyme disease psoriasis chronic asthma

multiple sclerosis ALS Parkinson’s I

could carry on the longest there’s

certain characteristics one of them is

they tended not to be aware their

emotional needs and very often tended to

be more concerned with the emotional

needs of others at at the risk of their

own number one number two they tended to


identification with duty role and

responsibilities so rather than knowing

who they were just as human beings valid

in their own right they sought to I

identify themselves with the work that

with how other people saw them which

meant they were constantly striving to

do more and more and more in every

little contour just being does the

second characteristic the third one for

the most part they had great difficulty

experiencing let alone expressing anger

in a healthy way so there is such thing

as healthy anger and it’s a boundary

defense these people very often tend to

be nice and they learned very early in

life it’s not their fault by the way I’m

not talking about character defects what

I’m talking about here are a ways of

coping that people develop to deal with

their childhoods so in if you were up in

a family where you’re not allowed to be

angry otherwise your parents would be

mean to dine on you then how you to

survive you survive by repressing your

anger which doesn’t mean that the anger

goes away it just means that it works

against you rather than for you and

given up you know how we have the

scientific evidence not for the actual

unity of the emotional centers in the

brain with the immune apparatus and the

hormonal apparatus in the nervous system

when you’re suppressing emotions you’re

also having an impact on your immune

system and your nervous system and your

hormonal apparatus and so the repression

of anger is a major risk factor for all

manner of illnesses and it’s almost

universal in people with autoimmune

disease and and and and most cancers the

final characteristic the fourth one then

is a belief that you’re responsible for

the people feel and coupled with the

belief that you must never disappoint


which means you keep doing things that

may harm you or be stressful for you but

you’re doing it to appease others these

things create stress you were gonna say

about anger yeah I was just gonna say

you know it anger how do we measure

anger in a healthy way and also it’s I

mean you say that it’s it’s a it’s a

defense against boundaries I mean do you

do you find that people with maladjusted

kind of boundaries or people who suffer

are suffering from excess stress or

people who have been traumatized

there are their boundaries kind of

thinner or they they’re different

boundaries right well look first of all

let’s take a sexually abused okay when

you talk to these people as adults and

you asked him the question Bremen you

abused well when I was five how long did

it go on two years who do you speak to

about it the answer uniformly is nobody

now think about that for a moment if you

had a five-year-old child and somebody

even looked at it the wrong way who

would you want him to speak to if this

is your job if this is your child

yeah you wanted to talk to you if you

found that Xavier for that just for the

sake of a thought experiment if you

found out that your five-year-old had

been violated that way and had not

talked to you how would you explain that

I don’t know it’d be a really hard

situation no but I’m asking you what

would you understand that why your child

is not talking to you but there is an

explanation which is that the child

didn’t trust you to protect her that the

child learned that you weren’t available

for her no for young children the

parents are the necessary boundary the

childhood the infant is no boundaries

the the parent has to be the boundary

and through the proper boundaries of the

parent the boundaries that the parents

draw around the child the child learns

their boundaries these children who are

abused they’re picked on precisely

because that boundaries lacking because

already they lost a relationship with

the parents so trauma itself has to do

with the loss of boundaries no when the

child is being valid like that what do

they feel like if you’re let’s just

imagine somebody inappropriately you as

an adult try to force themselves on you

rob emotion would you have what’s the

first thing

what’s the first emotion you’re not I

would be shocked you’d be angry is ever

change yeah anger – of course you’d be

angry because that anger is your

protection so anger is a boundary

production but what can it look in a

five-year-old child do with the anger in

against an abusive adult a fire child

who’s got no support from their parents

what can they do with that anger there’s

an exercise yeah can they express the

anger it would be hard for them to

express the well if they did if they did

they would put their lives in danger

because angry means I’m gonna fight back

and how is the child gonna fight back

against an adult so that the child’s

survival depends on repressing the anger

and that becomes a life pattern that’s

how they survive now all their lives now

they’re afraid of anger and they’re very

very nice all the time but that means

their boundaries are being invaded all

the time and they’re not protecting

themselves so healthy anger is nothing

but a boundary defense healthy anger is

a boundary defense that occurs in the

moment if I were to violate your

boundaries right now even as we speak to

one another

and you said gob or don’t talk to me

like that that would be a healthy

expression of anger and you’ll be

healthy because be appropriate to the

situation protect your boundaries and

it’s over as soon as the threat is gone

now that’s the healthy way to deal with

anger the only unhealthy way the anger

on sorry the unhealthy way to deal with

anger has two possibilities pretty much

scuse me

one is to repress the anger she barely

even experienced it and the other is to

become a rageaholic where the anger

bursts are you for no reason or for no

adequate reason and it keeps going on

and going on and going on and both the

personal repressed anger and both the

and the person who is a rageaholic where

the anger is volcanic they’re both at

risk for health in the first case for

cancer autoimmune disease in the second

case for heart disease because both the

repression or the volcanic eruption of

anger have significant impacts on our

immune systems in our cardiovascular

system and you’ve measured this you’ve I

mean you’ve studied this through through

your patients and well not only I’ve

studied it doesn’t mean thousands of

research papers on these relationships

it’s not this much that it would be


I mean again you know if you understand

human beings are unified entities where

the emotions and the hormones and the

nerves and the core vascular system and

the immune system these are all aspects

of our survival mechanism then how could

they possibly be separated and how could

it be possibly imagined that when

something occurs in one aspect of that

one aspect of that system that that will

not affect in the other parts of the

system now this also means that when

people get diagnosed with a condition

saving multiple sclerosis or rheumatoid

arthritis the condition does not exist

as an abstract isolated entity by itself

it reflects the life of a person and

that person’s relationship to themselves

and that means that the diagnosis need

not be a chronic jail sentence or a

death sentence depending on a person man

is helped to deal with it if they if

they’re brought to understand but these

lifelong emotional patterns do have an

impact on their physiology and by

changing those patterns they can

actually alter the physiology in a

healthy way it means that multiple

sclerosis can actually be creating

mitigated or even reversed and I and

I’ve known many examples of that even

more fail disease like ALS I know people

who survive that by changing their

relationship to themselves

I’m not saying it’s easy not am I saying

that everybody can be cured but I’m

saying that millions and millions and

millions of people could lead much

healthier lives

if this basic scientific awareness

somehow was infused into medical

practice but it isn’t and the word

trauma is not even mentioned in medical

schools for the most part so the I mean

the core message here is that disease

represents how we are living our lives

yes and some aspects that are obvious

like if you smoke or if you’re a poor

person with poor job prospects you live

in a highly polluted area we know you’re

gonna die much earlier than somebody

who’s wealthy doesn’t smoke and doesn’t

live in a polluted areas losses are

obvious the part that is less that’s

largely unknown by my profession is

how are you related to us to see how you

relate to ourselves emotionally on a day

to day moment by one basis also as a

huge significant impact so that’s what I

concentrate on and when the body says no

this is their emotional issues ourselves

because that’s the hidden one the the

book when it originally came were in

Canada the subtitle was so when the body

says no the cost of hidden stress mm-hmm

that too is a more accurate title the

American title subtitle is exploring the

stress disease connection which is not

inaccurate but the Canadian subtitle the

cost of reading stress is really what

I’m trying to say is that these daily

chronic unconscious stresses that we

create for ourselves unwittingly because

of our childhood programming they’re the

ones that undermine our health and they

need to be addressed

going back to boundaries and you know I

appreciate the wisdom in your words but

but going back to boundaries here and

you know you talk a lot about how people

who have suffered have difficulties

saying no and there there are impacts of

not saying no I mean how can we be

better at kind of recognizing our

boundaries and when to say no well I

mean let me ask you a simple question if

that’s okay with you if you go back over

the last week in your life and I and I

don’t know your person I don’t know how

you live what do you have awareness

you’ve been carrying moment you probably

I know you’ve done a lot of work that I

get from your words so maybe this is not

an issue for you but let me just ask you

this in the last week or the last two

weeks were there times when this doesn’t

know in you that wanted to be said but

you didn’t say it I mean I’m pretty good

at saying no I yeah I mean I know I mean

I’ve definitely not always been good at

saying no okay no I’m not okay so right

when you don’t say no what is the impact

that doesn’t mean you don’t say no I’m

not saying there was a direct emotional

effect and it it weighs the headily and

I and I start to think about that event

and I replay it over and over in my mind

na and I start to

you really worry about you know why I

didn’t say no why why I didn’t speak up

so this is an emotional impact right

yes because their physical impact yeah

there’s a it’s a heaviness you know it’s

like a guy got type feeling and that

happiness reflects activity in your

nervous system and in your in your

intestines in other words do not say no

is it direct physiological effect and

you are even aware of it a lot of people

not even aware that they’re doing this

so the impact is all the heavier so

virtually any chronic symptom like

difficulty sleeping dry mouth back pain

palpitations nausea stomach pain fatigue

just a whole range of physical symptoms

that the body will throw at you to wake

you up

it’s the body with the but it’s the

body’s way of saying no if you don’t and

you can learn from that

so whenever a you have physical symptoms

when you ask him y’all can you learn

from this here’s how you can learn from

it whatever your physical symptoms

migraine headaches whatever it is you

get the physical help that you need I’m

not saying don’t go to the physical

symptom relief I mean nobody’s paid to

suffer but at the same time ask yourself

what am I not saying no to that my body

is saying for me what is it is my

relation with my spouse or my work or

something where I’m not saying no or I

need to say no so you learned from your

body that’s the first thing the second

thing is once a week you’d sit down ask

yourself where this week did not say no

and what was the impact on me

and why did I not say no oh oh I didn’t

say no because my belief for us that if

I say no I won’t be loved in other words

I believe that love is conditional and

I’ll never get unconditional love I want

to get love on the condition that I

behave myself for the sake of others now

is that how you really wanted of your

life in other words it’s just a genuine

and ongoing inventory of authentic your

being yeah and your body will give you

signals and you yourself

and do that kind of self-examination

those are two very simple ways of

learning and then of course you can

reflect back well where did I learn that

love was conditional role did I learn

that I was only lovable when I met the

expectations of others well I learned

that when I was three years old well do

you want to live my life based on what a

three-year-old believed about the world

on a bad day is that how one of this so

it’s not that it’s not that difficult

but it does take conscious attention

yeah and I mean dr. Mattei it’s it’s

interesting to me because you know I a

lot of the people that I talked to and

the people that I encounter and I meet a

lot of people but it seems like we’re

all kind of walking around with this

with some level of trauma that we’ve

experienced in our lives and somehow

it’s filtered in into through through

time into our adult lives and we’re

still managing this I mean do you I mean

how do you regard this this system like

this sort of earth system on earth

incarnated here on earth in a spiritual

way that there you know there are so

many people suffering through trauma

through their lives well first of all

let’s define trauma so trauma it’s not

the bad things that happen trauma is the

result of that external thing happening

inside ourselves so the traumatic event

is not that my father hit me or my uncle

abused me or my mother didn’t listen to

me those are the external figures for


but the result of all that is I get

disconnected for myself because as a

child the only way I can survive if I’m

totally alive to my emotions and all

this is happening

it’s unendurable for a small child so

the only way we survive is to get

disconnected from ourselves that is our

protection from suffering so I don’t

feel as much I don’t feel I don’t feel

my gut feelings of nausea disgust I want

to run away I don’t feel my gut feelings

of anger that’s why I survive that means

I separate for myself

now in our society that is almost

universal and that’s for all our reasons

but fundamentally it goes back to a

system that makes it very difficult for

parents to give their children

unconditional love I’m not saying it

makes it difficult for them to feel

unconditional a lot of parents feel that

for it-it’s very difficult for them to

deliver it in a way that the child can

receive it could the parents themselves

are traumatized and stressed and there’s

so many ways in which our society

stresses parents and bakes up families

so you’re quite right as a result

virtually all of us are walking around

with some degree of trauma which is to

say some degree of separation from

ourselves that’s just how it is and the

spiritual task

really is to recommit is also the

emotional task is to reconnect with our

authentic selves and see the good news

is that the traumas not what happened 30

years ago or 20 years of over 50 years

ago if that was the trauma then there’s

nothing you can do about it what had

happened but if the fun was a

disconnection that disconnection can be

repaired this very moment that can be

recovered the connection with ourselves

can be recovered in fact we talk about

recovery is healing and recovery means

to find something so in a case of

addiction for example people recover

what do they find again they find

themselves and interestingly enough I’ve

lived up to many dying people and in

palliative care for example I’ve had

I’ve heard this many times and I guess

you would – I’ve heard this from people

with even with terminal illness or

serious illness that a person will make

the astonishing statement that this

illness is the best thing that ever

happened to me now have you heard of the

kind of statement hmm interesting

yeah I mean I I have heard that

mentioned why why do people say that

because it gave them something more

precious than anything else which is

their connection

themselves it forced it forced them to

realize so disconnected they were and

data and their experience of our

authentic selves is the is what wrong

with spiritually teacher cause this the

precious pearl and that’s what we lose

and it’s so hard to get back to it I

mean it’s simple but it’s so difficult I

can tell you in my own life that is my

that is my task you know that is my

ongoing responsibility and the same

thing for all of us depending whether

we’re gonna take that on or not take it

on and on in our society were given so

many blandishments so many ways of

escaping from ourselves it’s all about

escape people people’s experiences

themselves is unpleasant and it’s

stressful and rather than realizing that

that’s because we’re not going to hurt

ourselves we just look for the nearest

path of escape from our discomfort and

so there’s a million ways and for the

internet through television through

movies through food through sex through

power through well through sports to any

number of activities we just run away

from ourselves but last night I watched

the end of the basketball game between

Cleveland and Golden State and Cleveland

won it was an amazing game and you know

but amy was talking about how

traumatized Cleveland had been for the

last 50 years or 60 years because they

had no any kind of sports championship

that’s total nonsense so lot if a bunch

of men on a small court didn’t score

more more points than some other bunch

of men on the same court how’s that

traumatic but it’s but it but it speaks

to the the madness the the hypnosis that

people live under and that hypnosis is

designed where these serve the function

of helping us distract ourselves from

our suffering rather than seeking for

the resolution inside ourselves by


we want the sports team to score more

points so we can feel better of

ourselves for two minutes it’s very

powerful yeah yeah dr. Monte I work in

the startup industry as well and I I

find that it’s an incredibly stressful

atmosphere to work in and a lot of the

people around me you see kind of fail

and they fail at you know they they fail

out launching their companies they fail

that they’re working 12 hours a day it’s

obvious that they’re they’re suffering

and I mean how does how does what we do

and our relationship to what we do

affect our stress levels and longevity

for our lives the issues not what we do

the issues who were being and in our

society the emphasis is on what we do

and we do that because we learned very

early in life that it’s only through

doing that we justify our existence

because we weren’t accepted our parents

and I speak of myself as a prank as well

I was not able to accept my kids just

how they were former they were and

celebrate them for who they were

regardless of their doings so we all

learn that is by doing that you validate

our existence that we gain value and

that we find meaning and so what else is

undoing and I’m telling something no

matter of doing even if you succeed

whatever give us that meaning I know

that personally doesn’t matter how many

hundred thousands of copies of books I

sold or how many standing ovations I get

or how many people thanked me for for

helping them some are in their lives

that does not give me meaning or

validation does it this attempt ireri

excitement about it perhaps but in the

morning I still wake up if I’m in that

mood with that same sense of

meaninglessness and purposelessness so I

know that success doesn’t give it to you

the people haven’t had success yet they

think that if I’m only be successful I’d

be okay the reason is that we’ll never

get connection to ourselves or through

reality or the truth through doing it’s

not a question of doing it’s a question

of being and that of course is the

spiritual quest of

connecting with being in our lives so

you know the conversation we can talk

about the physical aspects the

physiological aspects the emotional

aspects ultimately does come down to our

capacity to be rather than to do and

when we were okay with our being then

what we do doesn’t become so important

it doesn’t become the testing ground on

which we measure our value and you’re

referring to the authentic being the

authentic self that’s what I’m referring


mm-hmm it’s intriguing I mean uh you

cover in your work you talk about

caregiver stress and I want to talk I

want to cover this a little bit you say

you talk about how the child feels the

pain of the mother I mean how does it

how does that happen how does that work

children are narcissists by that I mean

nothing negative I mean simply that they

make everything about themselves that’s

just a nut child’s natural response when

the mother suffers the child immediately

believes that it’s because of them the

child and that is their responsibility

to fix it so the way they say they need

the mother and if the way they can

engage with the mother is to try to make

the mother feel better somehow or the

poor the father for that matter then

that becomes their lifelong pattern now

they become chronic caregivers it’s

called the Penta fication of the child

it’s a reversal of roles that happens

for a lot of kids and that also role as

the great british psychiatrist John Paul

II pointed out is almost inevitably a

source of pathology in a child later so

that again what we’re talking about is

not mistakes that we make or character

faults we’re talking about coping

mechanisms so the taking care of the

parent let’s say now in an alcoholic

home becomes almost automatically their

responsibility of the child but not only

does it become a responsibility when

they’re children it also becomes the

personality that they

because that so they survived that means

even after they no longer need to do it

they still keep doing it no longer with

their parents but with everybody else


that means they ignore their own needs

so they become these people tend to go

into health care work very often because

there’s a natural way to play out that

scenario when the Union get paid for it

and they get a lot of praise for it you

know like I have but if you’re doing it

and it’s nothing wrong with caring for

others in fact as human beings we need

to do that obviously but if we do it


and chronically and unconsciously then

we overextend ourselves and we stress

ourselves then you get sick

I’d like to deconstruct a little bit

about your own personal journey and you

know you talked about success in a way

or a little bit earlier where I mean at

what point in your life did you feel

like was there was there any point in

your life where you felt like okay I’ve

I’ve made it or I’ve done it I’ve helped

enough people I’ve reached enough people

this book has got has sold enough copies

has there ever been a period in that in

your life like that I mean let me take a

moment with that question I can answer

there are three levels that occurred to

me right now the first level is that I’m

satisfied that if my career ended right

now today this is the last into your

like ever gave in the last public

experience professionally I’ve ever had

I could say to myself okay God what

you’ve done enough you’ve done your work

and your work will continue even if you

don’t continue so I’m on level I know

that mm-hmm and that’s you know that’s

actually a source of peace for me number

one number two I don’t feel my work is

finished yet I I believe there’s

something more in me that I need to

express and need to bring to the world


and we’ll see how that plays out but I

hope I won’t relate to that compulsively

mmm-hmm so if I find out that is not the

case I

I can peacefully accept that and on a

third level there’s still that we call

it and and seeing I have to notice it

regularly I did this thing of know

something I have to really practice

still because my natural tendency is

okay here’s another book somebody want

you to read and provide an endorsement

for here’s another speaking Asian ears

somebody else to myself will just can’t

find it anywhere else you know and it’s

not easy for me to say no and and and

when I don’t that is an impact on my

marriage in my personal life and my

fatigue level and all that so it’s an

awful you know your question the answer

their question lives on those three

levels oh I appreciate you attempting I

mean I appreciate you answering them you

know I just jumping back into your work

here I you know you talk about the

medical lexicon kind of being dated and

you know I I also wonder the same I

wonder why why why doctors aren’t

focusing more on I mean you you say you

talked about how the doctor-patient

relationship is sort of a transaction

you go there and you you list your

symptoms and the doctor says is here

here’s a medication to either make those

symptoms go away but there’s never a

question that is stated like what

happened to you and your child like how

was your childhood growing up how’s your

present will issue with your spouse are

you issue with yourself how much stress

do you take on when do you say no where

you’re not saying yes we you should be

saying us where there’s some creative

original that leads to express itself

but you’re suppressing it because you’re

too busy doing other things so all these

questions never mind even about the

childhood it’s even if it was only the

child that it wouldn’t matter the

problem with the childhood is that it

programs the present so the childhood

comes into it as the source of those

patterns but it’s really the present

that you have to concentrate on and yeah

those questions don’t come up you’re

quite right well there’s a kind of the

deal that’s being made there a

transaction as you say the patient says

I got the symptom but I want to think

about what it’s all about just take away

my symptom and the doctor says I know

how to I have the knowledge to help

mitigate the symptom but I have no

knowledge to look at the cause of it

therefore I’m gonna give you the symptom

relief thank you very much

ten minutes is up six minutes is up

here’s your prescription goodbye and

that’s the transaction it’s not just a

doctor it’s also the patient now I find

however that many many patients not

everybody some people find this stuff

too difficult too challenging too

painful to look at but many many many

people who wants to rise once they’re

asked the right questions

do get interested in searching

themselves for the answers hmm yeah you

know a friend of mine works in he’s and

he’s causing himself a transition

specialist he works in addiction and he

he goes to these clinics and he talks to

people who are addicts and and helps

them and you know we were we were

talking and we were having this

conversation he was talking about how

the Medicare system is so rigged but

through you know over billing their

patients over over billing in the

insurance companies doctors having this

sort of network of referral type systems

I mean how do you respond to this how do

you react to this

well there’s truth in that I mean again

in doctors were paid to you know in an

HMO where the doctor is basically told

that you have six and asportation if

your GP what are you gonna do and

furthermore if your medical doctor and

you read in medical journals and and

publications and all the research is

funded by drug companies because they

are the ones with the money and they

have no interest I’m looking at non

pharmaceutical ways of dealing with


why would they that’s not where their

profits are so that’s if that if that

first of all if you limitation is they

can only spend so much time number one

number two your training is in no way

prepared you to deal with these issues

number three your constant bombarded by

pharmaceutical propaganda what are you

gonna do

so it’s not the corruption of individual

doctors that’s at issue here it’s the

whole system is rigged that way it’s set

up that way I mean if we can just jump

around a little bit and go back to the

the mind-body connection I mean there’s

you talk a lot about how the central

nervous system and the brain are

constantly in communication and it’s not

that the central nervous system in the

brain are constantly in communication

the brain and the nervous system is the

central nervous system in other words

it’s not like a few systems in

communication the braiding is the key

part of the central nervous system

obviously by central nervous system we

mean the brain and the spinal cord

basically and then the nerves that

extend from the spinal cord or what we

call the peripheral nerves okay but so

so just important to recognize that the

brain which is the part of the body that

receives communication from the external

world and interprets those

communications and responds to them is

the key part of the central nervous

system and these systems are in constant

communication right and there’s more

there’s more messages going from the

body to the brain through the the

nervous system right oh yeah the brain

receives many more messages from the

body then it sends out and that’s done

to the other night nurse so we’re not

aware of those communications but they

happen all the time so you’ve got

Spencer making more sense many one

message to the brain then it receives

for example that’s why God feelings are

so important yeah and and this is

psychoneuroimmunology is that well these

science that studies the unity of the

psyche which is the emotional centers in

the brain with the nervous system with

immune system kundo a moral system the

cardiovascular system that science is

called psychoneuroimmunology which is

just a fancy word for saying that it’s

all one so dr. Mattei I mean were we’re

about to wrap up here in a few minutes

but I mean what do you think that you

know either a person can do with their


someone who maybe

listen to the show and is experiencing

stress and is starting to recognize that

they are struggling with stress and what

is the single most important thing that

they can do to better their lives well I

don’t know that if you reduce it to a

single most important thing but the

answer that leaves immediately to mind

is they need to become conscious because

these patterns in the automatically play

out this childhood scenarios that we

keep re-enacting and reenacting and

reenacting they’re done unconsciously

not deliberately not to a fault and not

even to the fault of our parents but

they did their best given what they had

they just multi-generationally

translated patterns of trauma that we

keeps and manifesting in our lives and

we need to become conscious of how we do

that and let me do it and why we do it

so the gain of a consciousness is the is

the king you know that in the Bible the

Proverbs it says the beginning of wisdom

is the gaining of wisdom in other words

we have to wake up so the very fact that

somebody might hear this conversation

and then I realized that oh I’ve been

caught in these patterns I see some of

that in myself that’s the beginning of

it now then they have to go out deep in

their consciousness how do they do that

well I hope some people will be inspired

enough to beat my books on addiction or

stress and health or whatever there’s a

lot of information in there or they find

not a lot war and contain a then do the

research for themselves and they may

start asking themselves so once a day

where did I not say no today where I

needed to where did I not say yesterday

but I needed to what is the impact of my

not saying no just the same questions I

put to you before right what is my what

is my body telling me what kind of

symptoms what kind of messages my body’s

telling me in other words it takes

awareness and paying of attention it

takes me

it takes the making of a decision that I

matter and my health matters and if

something matters I’m gonna pay

attention to it and not just keep living

my life unconsciously and hoping that

everything will turn out okay yeah

that’s I mean it’s so profound just that

the simplicity of it and I and you know

that you have done all this work to kind

of bring this to the forefront and and

at least give people you know resource

to go to with your books and your

writing it’s amazing and you know it’s

it’s it it’s truly truly great to hear

someone you know actually discussing

this well thank you and people can hear

more of that without any charge

whatsoever simply by finding my lectures

or public talks on YouTube people keep

posting these on YouTube but I don’t

post them but they’re on there and lots

of people find them a benefit just to my

website people can find them we’re just

going to YouTube they can find them in

other words and that’s just me you know

what I miss lots of other there’s

obviously lots of other people but there

are other people delivering this kind of

message you know Peter Levine on trauma

vessel Vander Kolk on trauma John boyega

on stress lots of people now relatively

speaking compared to a little while ago

or and now bringing this information to

the forefront so you know there’s lots

of good information out there once

people start looking yeah dr. Montaigne

on that know what what is your website

how can people get to your website dr. Mattei sir thank you so

much for being here again

and I really really appreciate the

wisdom in your words thank you so much

thank you for the interest in my work

thanks a lot this is the human

experience we will catch you guys next

week thank you so much for listening


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