Transcript for Episode 39 – Dr. Marco Iacoboni

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dr. Marco iacoboni Marco it’s a pleasure

sir welcome to hxp so Marco I I really

like your bio on your website it reads

quote to be honest I really don’t give a

damn about the brain I care about the

human soul however I believe happen to

believe that the souls in the mind and

the mind is a functional process

instantiated by the brain with its

interactions with the body and the


how interesting oh thank you I must say

that when we rerun the website for the

lab and I asked every one of my trainees

to write a little blurb on themselves

and then we kind of a dry run looking at

the website and they looked at my own

yeah one of my trainees said are you

sure you want to put that thing on on

the website and it is that you know if

you’re a neuroscientist you should

really care about the brain but the

point I was trying to make any kind of a

jokingly fashion is that yeah we study

the brain but why do we celebrate not

because of the brain itself because the

brain is an important organ they really

guides our lives and yet they went you

know to say in a very concise ways that

even though it’s an important organ that

guides our life and determines how we

behave it’s not just the brain the brain

it’s an organ

the body and the body it’s really

embedded and situated in the world and

so we have to consider all these

interactions even when we just study the

brain that was the point of the bird

right so I mean you are most widely

known for your work on mirror neurons

but social cognition and I know that you

like to kind of talk about this how were

mirror neurons discovered what walkest

had a process so other words these

scientists that incidentally wearing in

Italy I’m Italian and I’ve been living

in Los Angeles for almost a quarter of a

century now and never studying system in

the brain of the monkey the controls

grasping grasping is innocent we don’t

even we don’t give it a second thought

but we grasp things all the time if we

are not able to grasp our life is really

severely impaired and so they were

studying other brain controls grasping

because it’s an important way to figure

out how to help patients that have

grasping deficits after say a brain

damaged after like a stroke but one

thing that I found and they were really

surprised and they were so surprised

that initially they wouldn’t believe

themselves that they actually had found

this thing and they did a lot of control

experiments to really make sure that

this was a real phenomenon they found at

some of these cells that really send the

signals from the brain of the monkey to

the muscle of the hand of the monkeys so

that the monkey can grasp like a piece

of rail raising and put him in mouth a

banner and our something like that they

found it some of these cells also file

when the monkey is not moving at all

it’s just who watching someone else

making those grasping actions

so something that if you had asked in

your sand is 25 years ago is there

something in the brain like that they

would had said are you nuts

it’s impossible so there was really nice

shell disbelief but then the idea was

that well when the phenomenon was really

established as a real phenomena the

question was why do we have this stuff

in the brain

what is the adaptive advantage of every

mirror neurons

and so what are the apologies was that

while maybe these cells are really

important for making us understand

what’s going on in the minds of other

people without really having making too

much effort so if I look at you grasping

a cup of coffee and neurons in my brain

that fire up whenever I grasp something

also fire but just watching you grasping

a cup of coffee I had to you know he had

what should do I’m basically activating

in my own brain the same neurons they

activate when we actually are grasping a

cup of coffee and that means that we

have this immediate connection an

immediate understanding of the mental

states and of the actions of other

people hmm very interesting so do do all

mammals have these mirror neurons or is

it just monkeys and humans good question

um these cells were discovered in the

monkey brain now we know we have also

the same cells in the human brain we

know for sure that songbirds those

little cute bears that sing songs learn

how to sing songs through some sort of

mirror neurons his appearance in the

brain of the songbird that fire when the

bird is singing but also when the bird

is listening to the song that he will

eventually sing it is possible to the

arm Union the many other species one of

the idea that we have is that in

principle it could be a fairly simple

mechanism to associate your mother

plants what you plan to do with your

body with the side of someone else doing

the same thing but there is no direct

evidence that there are mirror neurons

in other species at least not so not yet

and because the way near science is done

we tend to study only certain species

with certain techniques so I don’t

really see that we will discover mirror

cells in other animals any time soon but

mostly because people are not really

looking and I would say that if I had to

bet money I would say most likely some

kind of mirroring happens in many

species in many brain

very interesting so how does how does

the evolution and the growth inside the

brain happen when like say for example

when a child is learning looking in a

mirror and realizing that it’s it’s

their own face that they’re seeing how

does that growth happen and what can we

learn from from this yeah that’s a very

good question and I I must say we don’t

have an answer because we don’t have

hard data on this but we have certainly

some speculation that we can make oh you

made a good point that children even

when they’re in the first day of life

can look into it the mirror ring at

their own face or reflected by a mirror

it turns out that they are not even

aware that’s their own face you can make

some test to demonstrate that but they

like to do that I think the mirror

neurons really get created so to speak

by the interactions between the baby and

the caregiver so what happened is that

suppose I’m the baby and you’re the

caregiver humans who tend to do is

adults they tend to actually imitate

what the baby does so if I’m the baby in

and I’m smiling the caregiver tends to

smile back at the baby we like that we

kind of like to join in and what happens

in the baby’s brain the baby’s brain can

simply associate it’s called associative

learning it’s a fairly simple way in

which brains learn out to do things on

the brain of the baby can associate the

motor plan for sale in making a smiling

face in the sight of someone else making

a smiley face and by doing that you

create a mirror room for smile that’s

the way I think actually chameleons are

are actually created we know that

they’re probably I mean we know we

speculate that they’re our premiere

neurons at birth in just in an infant

brain and that’s because even if you

just look at infants really young

infants these the work at any male

surface than some years ago you can show

that infants that were just born few

minutes ago they can imitate some

rudimentary facial gestures like you

know sticking your tongue out or

protruding your lips and

suggested maybe there are some mirroring

cells already at birth but we think that

a lot of mirroring cells in the brain of

the baby actually get developed and are

in a way become stronger and more

represented in the baby

baby’s brain by just these interactions

with the caregiver you talk about in

your research you talk about social

interactions and how people might use

these neurons to establish a higher

social status and I mean what is your

research zone shown about like the the

biomarker of social cognition and how

does this work in regards to how we

relate with other people good question

and we think that xx a mirroring does is

to create this immediate connection it’s

a sort of we call it pre reflective

because again you don’t have to think

about it and these connections really

the basis of one called empathy which is

a fundamental aspect of social behavior

you need to empathize with other people

in order to create a society on the

other hand it’s also true that empathy

is strongly linked to another thing that

we think mirror neurons do which is

imitation through imitation we learn how

to do things if we are in social fairly

noble context we look at other people

behave and we tend to we tend to blend

into the what they do it turns out that

imitation is a fundamental aspects of

human behavior and indeed it’s important

for learning but also it’s important for

transmission of culture it also shows

that imitative behavior in humans that

humans tend to imitate people of two

kinds either people that are like them

or people that have a social status that

they have power influence they were


so what it tells us is that there is

really strong link between the tendency

to empathize and the tendency to

actually conform in a tendency to also

understand our

hierarchies work that tells us that this

mirroring phenomenon is really embedded

as a corner store of our ability to be

social animals to really have mental

states and thoughts and feelings about

other people hmm yeah I mean one of your

one of another one of your quotes that I

really like is while we interact with

other people we find ourselves so it’s

how does this process happening in the

brain itself

I mean how have you guys tested this

well that’s that’s a good question so if

you look for instance in again we can go

back to early in life I told you that

babies in the first year of life that

alighted to play in front of a mirror

and exceed their own image and they

smile and they do things they have no

clue that that’s their own face how do

we know that if the baby falls asleep I

can put a big red mark on his forehead

and when the baby wakes up and he’s in

front of the mirror he still plays but

doesn’t show any change in behavior now

if you do the same trick a year later

when the baby is almost two years old

they’re almost like a toddler Blaine

what happens is that the Trotter wakes

up and looks at the mirror and sees the

big thing on his forehead and then he

starts crushing his forehead so his

behavior or her behavior really shows

that the baby is actually aware that

that face is our own or its own face

okay so that’s called self-awareness now

look let’s look at another phenomenon so

we get a bunch of kids up toward the

secretary of life some of these have

self-awareness they passed the mirror

test they show that this you know

behavior that they’re really worried

about what’s going on on the forehead

with that big red mark some mothers

don’t so they show that they are not

aware that the face at the scene in

front of a mirror is their own face we

put them in pairs a pair kids that are

self-aware and a pair of kids that are

not self-aware what happens to their

imitated behavior what do they do

spontaneously we don’t have to really

tell them what to do they just pull

interacting the kids that have

self-awareness there will be the ones

that imitate Theodore mo the kids


less self-awareness they didn’t show

much less imitation what does it tell us

it tells us that whenever you acquire

self-awareness you’ll see choir

awareness of the other this is something

for the Western mind is very difficult

to grasp because we are so entrenched

into individualism but for instance in

the Eastern philosophies is well

understood the development of self is

also the development of the other and I

think mirroring really mirroring in the

brain really captures this very well wow

that’s so profound yeah that’s very

interesting how fast do you think this

does the growth of this research is

occurring and how much new information

are we discovering APRA about the brain

oh well it’s going fast I mean we had

really beautiful 10 years ran in which

we did a lovely series of great

experiments which were addressed in

really the big question and so we are

they important for imitation yes at the

important for empathy yes do the Yelp us

understand what’s going on there in the

minds of other people when they plan to

do something yes can they teach us

something about the father for instance

we tend to be more empathic for people

that belong to our own social group so I

tend to empathize more you know I may

give you a cartoonish example more with

another nurse and instead with say a

golf player and that’s also a phenomena

that’s twelve established in the human

behavior and it seems the mirroring is

also relevant to that so we’re done of

these and now we’re trying to address

much more difficult question so for

instance how come people tend to be more

empathic than others or for instance

what is the role of mirroring in mental

health or in mental disorders do we

actually use mirroring for a recover

from say brain damage and if we have say

a motor deficit can we use mirroring to

improve that those are more difficult

questions and so it’s taking us a little

longer to figure out exactly the answers

one thing that we know about

neuroscience know is that there’s plenty

of very good research and especially

plenty of new tools that are coming

along the to help us figure out these

questions what what are some of the

roles that mirror neurons play in

regards to substance abusers and people

who relapse an addiction

good question still we had some

behavioral data it suggested actually

let me give you background information

so we say you get patients that have

alcohol abuse and you put them through a

rehab program first of all not a lot of

patients actually succeed in coming out

of their here program program completely

clean from the substance abuse but

something the problem is that these

problems are very expensive and if you

look at the ones that are successfully

out of there’s just our collab use after

say a rehab program

a year later about two thirds two out of

three of these guys actually are back

into drinking that’s not a good stats

especially because these rehab programs

are fairly expensive and we think that

one of the reason this relapse is

because of Miller meaning if I call it

you know jokingly decide the dark side

of mirroring if I quote with you

supposing you’re outside this drinking

problem and then I’m clean and went

through rehab I’m fine and I’m going out

with you socially seeing you drinking

even though you know you’re not really

getting wasted you just have been glass

of wine because you’re having you know

light out and talking to me about your

life see you’re drinking becomes a

powerful cue for me to go back to

drinking so we have to date one thing we

are trying to do is to figure out can we

actually suppress a little bit mirroring

in these people and that’s the other

complication that we are facing and

trying to figure out how we can do

control of mirroring it’s a very I mean

we’re actually working on my lab is

mostly focusing on that how do you

control mirroring because you if you

figure out how to control it you can

increase it or you can decrease it there

will be an important

thing to do and so we think that in

substance abuse certainly mirroring as

this negative effect of creating this

tendency to relapse in people because

they get these social cues hmm yeah I

find this all very intriguing I mean so

another aspect of your research uses

transcranial magnetic stimulation and in

treating a variety of conditions how

does this treatment work and what makes

it so useful it’s nice about trance can

make a stimulation in other kinds of

techniques that we call journaling

neuromodulation non-invasive

neuromodulation but TMS no stimulation

is probably the best is that they have

non-invasive they’re very little side

effects and they produce for cow

stimulation of brain regions so I can

stimulate to one region of your brain

and the effects of the my stimulation on

to the region also spread throughout

specific circuitry in your brain so we

can target circuits in the brain of

people and we can do that in a way that

really doesn’t induce any side effect

it’s really nice because of these

properties it’s already used fairly

successfully in the treatment of

depression but we think that in

principle can be used for a number of

other conditions and certainly it’s also

well used to study the brain because for

instance the eye thing we do is plane

imaging but with brain imaging whenever

I ask you to do something in DMR scanner

and a sibling region the lights up I’m

never sure that the regions the lights

up is actually causally related to your

behavior but if I use TMS with TMS I can

actually stimulate the brain region and

if I induce a disruption in your

behavior I know that there is a causal

relation between that brain region in

your behavior so these techniques are

really very flexible they give us a lot

of ways of studying the brain and they

also give us the possibility of treating

a number of neurological insecure

disorders without having the side

effects of for McCollum

she has there has there been anything

for you that you’ve found in your within

your research that has been kind of a

Eureka moment or something mind-blowing

that that you can share with our


my research well it’s been a plenty of

really exciting moments for instance

when we started doing the work of

mirroring we know which brain regions

were in the monkey brain that contained

mirror neurons and when I did my first

imaging study on imitation and I found

that very senior regions were showing

the pattern of activity that I thought

would be the pattern of activity that

the mirror neuron area would have that

was some sort of a Eureka moment another

one when we actually applied this kind

of research to patients with all these

memory palaces was that well if these

patients have difficulty in really

relating socially with other people

perhaps it’s because they’re mirroring

capacity is reduced and so if what

mirroring does is really to create this

very easy effortless connection between

people if you don’t have that you can

still interact with others but it

becomes much more requires much more

effort to really have an interaction

with others and to find out in fact

those regions in these patients we

notice that reduce mirroring there was

to me neither in Eureka moment so there

have been a few you’d see one thing I

would say that when I started doing this

work initially I read the scientific

report and then I collaborated with the

with the scientists that they made the

discovery in the monkey brain I must say

that the papers were really you know too

exciting but then I visit the lab and I

saw the monkeys and lay recordings and

you know the activity in these neurons

and there was another Eureka moment it

was just wow you can actually see the

phenomenon as it unfolds in front of you

so these are a number of them it’s been

quite a lot of fun to be involved in

this research yeah you you touched a lot

on empathy as well would you say that

people such as

sociopaths or people such as that of

psychiatric disorders

is this a problem for them I mean you

having empathy because of the decreased

mirror mirror neuron function yeah we

certainly think there is a deficit in

social cognition in a lot of mental

health disorders indeed even in

disorders in which drugs can control the

symptoms let’s take the example of

schizophrenia you may have a patient

with schizophrenia that is an auditory

hallucination the patient hears voices

inside his brain you can control that

with pizza okay with drugs yet when the

patient goes because back in the

community the functioning of these

patients in the community is really not

good and it is that it’s because they

have an impairment in social cognition a

mirror neurons the mirroring and empathy

are really cornerstone of social

cognition so we think that there is a it

widespread interesting mirroring abducts

the mirror Raymond sometimes in there

may be even excessive mirroring in a

number of mental health disorders

certainly empathy you again it’s by many

people many scholars and scientists it’s

considered a cornerstone of social

creation it doesn’t explain all social

cognition but it certainly you need to

add empathy to be a fairly functioning

social agent and lack of empathy or

reduced empathy makes interactions much

more difficult hmm so I mean what is

something that is are there any

exercises that we can do like mental

exercises that help us better imitate or

better fit in socially I would say yes I

mean the first thing you want to do is

to really just be sorta tuned to other

people to really pay attention to what

they do some of these really will come

naturally to people that are naturally

empathic I mean if you are empathic

person you tend to do this naturally but

if you’re not you can relief I wouldn’t

say force yourself you can make some

little exercises which whenever you’re

interacting with someone you really try

to be attuned to them you can even try

to if doesn’t come

pollutants are most people do it

naturally I mean if I we imitate our

postures we imitate our hand gestures

and that we eat ate even the words we

use if I use the word sofa in a

conversation with you you’re gonna

probably use that word sofa in a later

on if rather than using the word couch

so you have a choice but you cannot

imitate me to do you mean you’re in

conversation we tend to do that

naturally but some people may have more

difficulty in doing that it turns out

and if you try to without being you know

too overtly a parrot because if you do

that too then the other person would

became could get a little you know

freaked out about what you’re doing but

if you try to be a tune in a natural way

I just try to follow that the body

language of the other person I think

that that’s a nice way and really simple

way to try to improve your capacity to

empathize to be really attuned to others

yeah I like that you’re your lab is also

looking at the application of mirror

neuron LED teaching ideas in the field

of concept formation and imagination and

role playing in learning and the effect

it has on on sensor motor activity what

has been the results so far and and how

can imagine if role immersion to be

something that we would use to to learn

as a learning tool yeah that’s actually

torture it’s not research is really

doing taking off a lot because I mean

the research we do requires a lot of

funding and we’re not being successful

in recruiting a lot of funding for these

switchers but I think that’s essential I

think you won’t ever do is that we’re

doing it all wrong when it comes to

teaching and learning really learning in

real life it’s a multi-modal experience

what do I mean with that I mean we mean

that I use my my vision I used my

hearing I use my sense of smell I use

the sense of the body that’s the way we

learn not to do things and it turns out

when we when it comes to your the

classroom we tend to have a much more

impoverished way of teaching there are

students sitting around and there is the

teacher in front of them and the teacher

just talks we think that it’s much

better to understand a concept if you

actually use your imagination and you

almost embody the concept you’re trying

to learn and for instance in in Cara

wave almost provocative slogan we say if

you really want to understand the

process of photosynthesis I mean

eventually you’re gonna have to really

learn the details of that that’s being

figured out by the scientists but one

way of doing that is whenever you’re

actually studying the whole process of

photosynthesis you may use your

imagination in imagining you’re the

plant themselves and by doing that your

concepts are actually much more grounded

into something that you understand in a

very solid way we’ve done some studies

on college undergrads here at UCLA and

really wish we were sure that some

subjects actually learn much faster with

this way terms are the summoner’s

actually don’t learn that fast and

that’s the big obstacle we had to kind

of face to figure out which are the

individual differences that make some

people really try with this approach

about teaching and learning and some

others don’t we think it’s a matter of

belief that is if I’m teaching my

undergrads amount I’m telling them I

want you to use your body to mimic the

constant you’re studying some of these

kids will not feel wait a minute are you

treating me like a kindergartener I mean

I’m a smart kid I mean UCLA so why

should I do that

and that creates really drop of empathy

really even empathy for the constant

you’re trying to learn and that’s an

obstacle and that’s not going to help

you hmm it’s very interesting would you

would you say that by by consciously

mirroring like say if I was in a

situation where I needed someone to help

me or to generate empathy from another

person by by consciously mirroring them

would I elicit an empathy

response as long as you do in a very

subtle way yes I mean when it comes to

very young subjects you don’t have to do

it in a very subtle way you can do an

experiment you can go to every rule next

time you’re at the party and there are

very young kids you know maybe in the

first of a second in your life you

imitate what they do and I love it but

if you are interact with a with a with a

cronut what you want to do is to really

try to really be attuned to what they do

and that’s why actually we tend to do

whenever people explain things to us we

know the little it’s not we really have

to not to understand what they’re saying

but by nodding we tell them with our own

body that we’re really under free I mean

listening to what they’re saying and

understanding what they’re saying so

yeah I mean the way you want to do and

by doing that the interesting thing is

that this created a virtuous circle I

mean if you are really attuned to

someone else then the efforts to really

gets drawn to you too and then there is

this really nice bonding between people

it’s one of those things that it’s also

very easy to break down I mean if you

become distracted and you’re looking at

somewhere else oh you’re really thinking

about something that’s that person that

is interacting with you

perceives that immediately and so this

very nice connection can really be

broken very quickly so that’s why I mean

I don’t wanna convey the message that

really is something that you requires a

lot of effort to do this again maybe

because I tend to be a very empathic guy

it comes very natural but I would say

that she’ll really take you long to

really get to attune to others and then

to get people drawn to you too so that

there is this very nice bonding between

people yeah it seems like these cells

play a huge role in in intelligence not

only intelligence but emotional

intelligence and the idea that we can

fit into social groups by you know being

able to imitate what what these people

are doing and and also by looking at the

people that we respect as people who

hold social value and imitating what

they’re doing so it’s very interesting

everything that you guys are doing over

there at

lab what I mean have you have you guys

gotten into any of the theoretical usage

usages of these these mirror neurons yet

what do you read I mean a lot that’s

like like the usage of a program to kind

of simulate like in a computer like

artificial intelligence yeah that’s a

good question actually recently sort of

ex machina which I think it’s the best

movie in artificial intelligence ever

made and yeah I think if you talk to

people that build robots like Miami

college she’s a professor in USC I’ve

talked to her and she told me you know

before you guys discover yourselves

while I was building my robots I was

thinking exactly that I would need

something the mirrors would in my robot

the mirrors what other people are doing

and so yeah there is a lot of both

computational science and robotics and

artificial intelligence that is trying

to capitalize on this phenomenon it

turns out the mirroring it’s probably

even a more widespread phenomenon there

is a recent people just came out this

week that shows that if you look at the

activity in the brain in the motor

cortex and you look at what happens in

the model fibers in your muscles there

is a lot of similarities between the

neurons that fire in your brain and the

activity that your fibers in your

muscles your body parts are doing so

mirroring seems to be really something

that nature exploits a lot and I would

say that if you want to build artificial

entities that are efficient as humans

are and you should probably try to

exploit the mirroring to yeah yeah yeah

yeah that seems like the direction to go

I mean we’re running out of time here

Marco but is there is there anything

that you have discovered recently or

anything that you would like to share

with our audience and this is this would

be the moment to do it oh okay you put

me on the spot the erection

well I mean the thing we’re doing now is

three two and I told you earlier to

figure out how to control it because I

mean you need to assume that if you have

this thing that you know whenever I see

you doing something I tend to do it too

turns out we don’t do that right we

don’t imitate each other all the time

otherwise that would be extremely

dysfunctional and yet we don’t have to

make even an effort to do that so what

we’re trying to do is to figure out what

is the interaction between mirroring

which we call the bottom-up process that

is I see your face smiling and I can’t

help it inside me my mirror self or

smiling no fyra

and most of my top-down processes how do

I control it I mean I’m not it’s not

that whenever you smile as my myself

that’s I think we think that that’s

really that he to figure out how this

interaction creates a very efficient and

fluent social life the other thing I

wanna say is that I’ve been recently

thinking a lot about how this mirroring

phenomenon in its control can actually

go wrong and what do I mean with that I

mean with that that there are situations

in which we tend to rely so much on

either our beliefs or on our practices

that then they interact with the

environment in a sort of bad way and

they can create some really negative

behaviors and I wanna end this by saying

that the more I think about the brain

the biotin it’s really evolution has

divides the brain to make it a device

that really detects action the key that

can be afforded by the environment and

so you wanna have an environment that

really does not afford bad actions and

that really gets into even the level of

policy can you actually use new science

to figure out how to organize society

and I want to say anything more specific

than this because it’s a developing way

of thinking I mean actually maybe the

topic of my next

after reading after writing mirroring

people there was I love that book so

much that for many years I couldn’t

write anything else because I had to

fall in love with another story and I

think I’m slowly falling in love with

this idea that if you look at other

brain works it’s really a device that

detects potential actions and so you

want to create an environment that will

prevent some kinds of actions that will

facilitate some other kinds of actions

let me put it that way I really like

what you said about falling in love with

the idea Marco I really appreciate your

time sir thank you so much for that

where can people find your work if I

think this is very important to create

awareness on this topic where can people

find your work by your book I think mama

JAMA is it you can certainly download it

from online from various Kindle or

iBooks I’m not too happy about you know

publish in the publishing industry in

general but I’ve even you know how the

Amazon if you can find it I don’t think

it’s heavily distributed but it’s been

what school a long seller I mean number

of people keep buying it and I think

it’s it’s a fun book it’s called

mirroring people and I actually try to

ride it in a way that it’s not just

about the science and the concept but

also explains that science even though

we tend to think about it as a kind of

you know this almost impersonal activity

it’s made by people people that have

feelings and emotions and beliefs and so

I try to talk about there too and I

build sort of a narrative from three the

basic science to the implication for our

society a lot of people they read the

books it’s one of the greatest we did

the yet and so of course I have complete

of interest but I still have that book

so much that’s why I have written

another book people keep asking me when

when you write in their book well

whenever I fall in love with in our

story that’s great man do you do you

have a website though yeah I mean why my

website is you actually just Google

iacoboni lab you’ll find it but I’ll

give you the the correct address we can

make that link available in the post

when we post this

what otherwise Marco it’s been great

having you here this is the human

experience thank you guys so much for

listening we will be back next week

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