The Human Experience

Transcript for Episode 24 – Dr. Paul Jaminet

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human XP and thank you so much for

listening

the human experience is diving into diet

supplements evolutionary biology and all

things health with my guest co-author of

the perfect health diet dr paul gemman a

doctor Gemini thank you so much for

making the time to be here sir welcome

to the program oh that’s great to be

with you Xavier so dr. Jimmy for

listeners that may not know can you just

get into your education and your

background please um yeah well I’m a

little bit overeducated I got a PhD in

physics and had a career as an

astrophysicist for a little while but

then I decided to leave and become a

software entrepreneur and that was

during the Internet boom and and then

when we sold that company in 2001 then I

I started consulting and working on some

books I’d always wanted to read some

books and I’ve gotten some good ideas

and Business and Economics that I wanted

to write about but as I did that you

know I have been noticing my health

declining and in it and it kept getting

worse I every year and I finally decided

that I should actually focus on help for

a little while first and so that’s how i

got into thinking about help Wow

astrophysics interesting so I mean let’s

let’s go through what was going through

your mind I mean how did you get to that

point where you felt like you need to

write this book and create awareness on

on health I well it really just started

with my own health problems first of all

and then my wife’s so we both had I and

you could call the middle age health

problems but I you know things that

really shouldn’t have been happening and

then you know we knew we’re not just

normal aging and in my case I’d

had some problems since birth I was in

and out of the hospital first four years

of life with chronic ear infections and

I had adenoids tonsils removed as part

of that and um and I always had some

problems with fungal infections and acne

and and things like that but then in my

20s I took a year-long course for

antibiotics to treat the acne and all of

my problems got worse and and then from

then on it seemed like every year I

would get less and less healthy and less

and less able to do things and my

reactions became very slow I started

dropping things all the time I had a

very bad essential tremor I couldn’t run

or exercise quickly I had memory loss

and you know so I was really worried

about you know if things keep getting

worse year after year what what am I

going to be in ten years and my wife had

hypothyroidism and endometriosis and

other problems and you know so you know

we knew things burn bright but we didn’t

know how to fix them you know we would

go to the doctor once a year and and he

would say oh there’s no I don’t see

anything I can do and you know so it’s

hard to uh it was hard to get a

diagnosis or working treatment and I you

know and it this went on for years and

you know but I just didn’t know an

avenue to pursue things and then a a

couple things came together in 2005

first we tried some chinese herbal

medicines and those made a difference

they made some things better but they

also gave me like an allergic type

reaction so i stopped them but that

started me thinking all the things i put

in my mouth ah matter you know because

those this wasn’t you know like a pill

that you would buy these were you know

the actual leaves and

bark and herbs and you’d make a you make

a tea decoction and you know so it’s

much like food and you notice i started

thinking oh it looks like you know

nothing in medicine had helped us but it

looks like something that his food like

has you know powerful effects and so I

started thinking well you know it makes

sense that food would be important and

so I started thinking about diet but I

didn’t believe the mainstream diets and

you know I didn’t know how to pursue

things and then I came across the Paleo

diet and decided to give that a try and

that also like the Chinese medicine had

some powerful effects and really you

know changed the symptoms some things

got better some new symptoms appeared um

you know but it was really educational

and exciting and you know so now I new

diet really mattered and you know and

then it became a problem of refining the

Paleo diet to make it better and yeah

and that was what we ended up spending

the next five years working on yeah very

interesting so I mean I know that you

get into evolutionary biology it’s but

what what is in your opinion is an

optimal diet how does a person determine

what that is for them well on the way we

started determining it was by looking at

nutrition and looking at all of the

known nutrients and figuring out what’s

the optimal amount of each for our

bodies and then putting that together

translating it into foods saying what

mix of foods do we need to eat in order

to optimize our diet and that’s what

took five years it took a lot of

research but then when we did that I

what we found is a lot of remarkable

coincidences that led us back toward

evolutionary explanations for what the

optimal diet lost and so for instance we

noticed our diet the composition is very

similar to that of breast milk and you

know send a light bulb goes on of course

breast milk is the optimal food for

infants

and you know it must have been selected

to be you know the most nourishing

possible food and so it makes sense that

something similar would be optimal for

adults so the adult the Apple adult diet

has a little more protein a little fewer

carbs than breast milk but it’s very

similar and so that was one thing we

noticed and then we also noticed though

our food is really delicious it’s it’s

very similar to gourmet food in the

high-end restaurants and you know why is

that and then and then we thought oh

well why did are you know in the

restaurants to trying to make food that

you know people love and you know that

our brains react to very positively and

say oh this is great and if you think in

evolutionary terms why would our brain

say this is great it only because it

would be helping us be healthy and be

more successful and have more children

and grandchildren you know so it made

sense if we eat meals that are delicious

and satisfying then I that’s likely to

be a very helpful diet if it’s one

composed of natural whole foods like we

you know the sorts of things we would

have had access to in the Paleolithic so

you know so we still stuck with the

ancestral paleo template but we refined

it and so our diet ends up being about

three parts plant food to one part

animal food so it’s more plant food rich

than you know people may think of paleo

but it’s still a Paleolithic type diet

it’s a type of diet that our ancestors

ate in the Paleolithic it’s a natural

whole foods diet but it’s delicious it’s

combined in the proportions that will

make us really enjoy our food and be

really satisfied after the meal is over

hmm interesting because I tend to be a

very busy person and so most of the time

I am just kind of grabbing what’s

available and eating that and I usually

find that’s not the best way to approach

things are were there are some food

that you found that specifically that we

should maybe absolutely avoid to

maintain a healthy lifestyle oh yeah i

would i would definitely avoid processed

foods industrial foods you know any of

the things made with purified nutrients

so usually those are things where the

ingredients list starts with starch oil

sugar um you know so those end up you

know they’ve taken out all of the micro

nutrition and the fiber from food that

just kept the calories and then they

repackage the calories with some

flavorings and so you don’t want to eat

those I generally highly processed foods

are going to be bad for you and then in

terms of ingredients you generally want

to avoid anything with vegetable seed

oils I you know there are high in

omega-6 fats they tend to have toxins

they need a lot of processing in order

to remove the toxins but the processing

can add toxins itself I it’s good to

avoid added sugar we don’t really need

it just the natural sugars and in fruits

and starches and other plants are the

optimal amount for us and in general you

should be suspicious of seeds because

those are going to have the most

defenses and especially the seeds of

plants that grow in grasslands I like

the cereal grains like wheat because

those have it co-evolved with

herbivorous mammals and so the the big

evolutionary challenge for the seeds was

getting digested by mammals and they

don’t want that to happen so they all

have digestive inhibitors and various

things that interfere with the

functioning of a mammals body and and

not all of them are destroyed in cooking

so we include white rice in our diet

because I all of the known toxins and

white rice are destroyed in cooking but

I’ve in general you should be suspicious

of grains and and some of the beans

because they’ve tended to evolve toxins

that affect mammalian biology hmm are

there are there are some specific

vitamins that we absolutely need that

you recommend that people take and um

well we definitely need to be well

nourished so we need we need all of

vitamins and minerals and actually some

other nutrients that are classified as

vitamins or minerals and you know the

reason things were called vitamins is

they’re necessary for life if you had a

diet without any of a vitamin you would

die um so they’re all necessary but some

of them are really easy to get from food

I so just eating a natural whole foods

diet not one of the you know processed

foods diet that doesn’t have the micro

nutrition gets you a long way and then

it’s really good to eat what we call

supplemental foods so foods that have uh

you know we call them that because their

foods we think you should include

regularly daily or weekly in your diet

just like supplements and those include

things like egg yolks liver

extracellular matrix material from bones

joints tendons hoods on and seafood

fermented vegetables ah ha you know so

we have a we have a list in our book and

on our website and and then there’s

still a few things that it’s very easy

to be deficient you know so you know if

you eat oysters you can get enough sink

but many people don’t eat oysters and

find it easier to supplement you know

similarly if you ate enough sweet

peppers you could do okay with vitamin C

if you’re not too sick but you know many

people have trouble getting enough

vitamin C and it’s worth supplementing

many people have trouble getting enough

magnesium on vitamin D we don’t get out

in the Sun enough expose our skin to the

Sun so it can be beneficial to

supplement that a lot of people don’t

eat seafood regularly enough so

supplementing iodine can be beneficial

um you know so it’s really you have to

look at

and text of your diet and see what

you’re not getting from food and then

and then it can be beneficial to supply

those particular things in supplemental

form was there was there any anything

game-changing for you that you found

that would improve your life by adding

into your diet um well for most people

it’s going to be egg yolks liver seafood

and seaweed and fermented vegetables to

support the gut flora and extra

extracellular matrix material so those

will probably be the biggest things that

are beneficial in terms of supplements

I’d probably say magnesium iodine and in

people who are less healthy vitamin C

would be uh you know highly beneficial

things to do add and and then I’d say

another huge factor in health that many

people overlook is timing of when you do

things and meal timing is very important

so we recommend intermittent fasting

having an overnight fast of 16 hours and

making sure that you’re a tower feeding

window is entirely in the daytime so you

want to coordinate your eating with your

light exposure and your physical

activity and your social interactions

and and then have a period of rest at

night which you don’t eat hmm very

interesting can we get into that a

little bit more so you’re saying that we

should have a period of eight hours

where we spend and and those eight hours

we should eat within that window and the

other was at 16 hours of the day that we

should we should not which not be in

just in food at all ah that’s right so

um you know so I would recommend fluids

and electrolytes in during the fast you

know some things like coffee tea I

vegetable soup um you know but basically

minimal or no calories and

you know so at our health retreats we

suggest you know special people who have

adrenal issues on you know keep like a

cherry tomato and some salt and water by

your bed and then you can replenish

electrolytes because if your adrenals

aren’t functioning well you’ll tend to

lose electrolytes you won’t be able to

maintain them properly in the FAFSA if

you replenish them I you know through

the night just before bed and after

waking that’ll make the fast less

stressful um but in general it’s a very

good idea to do intermittent fasting and

accentuate the circadian rhythms of food

you know so that your calories are

concentrated in the daytime hmm it’s

very interesting there seems to be some

mixed research on dietary supplements on

one of the two battling sides there’s a

multi-billion dollar industry and these

these manufacturers are putting out

vitamins mineral fiber amino acids on

the other side there’s there seems to be

a growing body of research that suggests

people should have been abandon

multivitamins completely and that this

is a placebo and that we’re being duped

how do you respond to this and how can

laymen such as myself kind of navigate

these opposing claims yeah well that’s a

it’s a complex topic so that there’s a

lot of nutrients and uh and in general

the you know the health effects of a

nutrient are you shaped so your health

is poor if you’re deficient but your

health can also be damaged by getting an

excess of the nutrients so a lot of

nutrients turn into toxins when you get

too much and you know so that means

there’s an optimal amount and whether a

supplement is going to help you or hurt

you depends on whether you’re below the

optimum are above it and I you know so

something like a multivitamin where for

marketing purposes it seems the best

strategy is to give people a hundred

percent of the RDA of everything uh and

you know but that means you know most

people are getting one hundred percent

of the RDA

things in food and so that means you’re

giving them two hundred percent of a lot

of nutrients and that can potentially

tip over into the toxic and on the other

side there’s a lot of things that are

left out of multivitamins because

they’re too bulky I you know so people

are willing to eat you know several

pounds of food but they’re not going to

eat a very large multivitamin and you

know so they don’t tend to put in bulky

things like magnesium or vitamin C into

into multivitamins and you know so

there’s a lot of things that are missing

from multivitamins or are there in you

know homeopathic type quantities and and

it happens that a lot of the things that

are missing from multivitamin type of

things that people are actually most

efficient in and a lot of the things

that multivitamins provide you know

people arguing okay with and don’t

really need more of so it’s not that

surprising that multivitamins have you

know shown is pretty much neutral in in

most studies hmm so so what supplements

do you personally use and you’re in your

life uh I’d take I take some extra

vitamin C I take a low dose of iodine

daily even though I eat a fair amount of

seafood but I don’t need seafood every

day and I think it’s beneficial to get

some iodine every day and I just find it

easiest to take a take a pill I take

vitamin D in the winter because I have

difficulty getting I live in Boston

which is a little bit far north and I

have difficulty getting enough sunshine

in the winter on and a few others i took

some zinc once a week and let’s see i’ll

take some silicon occasionally if I

don’t eat if I don’t need liver for a

while I’ll take a little vitamin A um

but ah pretty much I try to get most

nutrients from food hmm okay where do

you what do you think the current

established kind of standing of the

Western medical system is I mean I know

that you’ve battled with this chronic

like illness disease type stuff and you

know how do you feel the Western medical

system is addressing these health

problems that more and more people seem

to be having well I think that’s

starting a part job I think I you know

we got a little carried away by the idea

of pharmaceutical science so you know

just the way medical science developed I

you know when they started putting it on

a good footing in the early 20th century

they discovered the major nutrients and

vitamins and and nutritional research

kind of came to a stop there in medicine

moved on I there was a big there was

huge progress against infectious

diseases and then when things shifted

toward chronic diseases with multiple

causes so things like cancer and

cardiovascular disease became the

dominant causes of death I then I you

know medicine wanted to stick with kind

of the pharmaceutical paradigm which had

been worked out for infectious diseases

you know of you know first developing

first vaccines and then antibiotics and

you know looking for compounds that

would module the would alter our biology

and hope that they could find those

compounds that would fix those diseases

and I think we can say at this point

that the pharmaceutical approach those

diseases really hasn’t worked so

basically it looks like the causes of

most modern diseases are in our diet and

lifestyle and nutrition and and if you

keep someone on a bad diet and and keep

them malnourished and keep them on an

unhealthy lifestyle

but you try to alter their biology you

can’t there’s no way to fix the harm of

being malnourished there’s no way to fix

the harm of not giving your body the

lifestyle environmental signals so what

the only thing the drugs can really do

is is move the symptoms around you know

so they can change where problems occur

you know so for instance in diabetes

people tend to get neuropathy early on

and the drugs can move the harm some of

the harm out of the nerves and towards

somewhere else you know so that you

sicken the whole body at the same pace

and so you don’t you don’t die quite as

early and you know those are beneficial

drugs but it really what people really

would have hoped for was to be made

healthy and I think what we’re starting

to realize is that I I a good diet and

lifestyle approach really can fix these

problems and remove the risk of the

diseases so I think in terms of where

the medical system has to head it has to

incorporate diet nutrition lifestyle

much more deeply and make those much

more central to the healing process

right what do you what do you think the

biggest misconception about diet and

healthy food is that you’ve noticed um I

would say you know probably the biggest

popular misconception is that you need

to go to extremes or you need to suffer

in order to eat a healthy time so um you

know a lot of the popular diet regimens

that are proclaiming this healthy are

you know somewhat restrictive um or they

may remove you know one type of food

entirely so the vegan vegetarian doctors

who removed animal food or went to a

very low fat diet had a you know a long

run and more recently the low-carb

movement restricted carbohydrates has

you know been very popular and we’ve

also had a lot of

uh other more specialized diets that you

know remove you know I’m thinking of

some autoimmune protocols or gut feeling

I putative got ealing diodes to remove a

lot of types of food and you know so 11

misconception I would say is that you

know if you if you just remove lots of

foods you you’ll tend to improve your

health you know we’re actually a

diversity of foods is most often that

what’s going to do the most good and

then on the other side about taste you

know like like we said earlier I our

brains evolved to make us healthy and

you know some things that taste good if

they’re made out of natural whole foods

are going to be healthy for us more

often than that so you don’t you don’t

want food that I you know is tasteless

or unpleasant or I you know leaves you

unsatisfied there’s probably something

missing if that’s the case hmm that’s

interesting just because i’ve always

found that the foods that are most

healthy for me usually tastes pretty bad

so um huh I wonder if you could go into

that a little bit more um well uh let me

tell you what I typically eat for lunch

so i’ll take a big bowl and i’ll make my

lunch out of leftovers and i’ll put in

some kind of starch like potatoes or

rice i’ll put in you know some kind of

vegetable I like like spinach often we

have leftover vegetables I’ll just put

those in um i’ll put in some leftover

meat or fish on i’ll put in three egg

yolks i’ll put in some vinegar some

coconut milk and fish sauce usually as

flavorings and then just heat it up in

the microwave and and it’s delicious and

you know so um and that’s actually you

know so we’re writing a cookbook we have

a we have a template or how do you

design a meal

it’s pretty much I you know if you get

the foods in the right proportions then

it’ll be delicious every time and I you

know and actually if you look at the

nutrient composition of that lunch that

I just described and you add in a little

bit of fruit or berries you know then it

would you know basically come very close

to the composition of breast milk and

you know like we said earlier that’s a

very healthy a combination of nutrients

was there was there any specific moment

where you realize there was a kind of

Eureka for you as far as okay this works

for me and kind of your in your

understanding of health and healthy

eating and if you could go into that for

us um I would say you know one thing

anyone who’s written a book will know

when you start writing you uh you know

you realize how little you know and and

you have to keep doing a lot of research

in order to be able to you know read

something that that’s good and so what

happened for us is on I was you know

getting to an age where other generation

before mine you know my father my aunts

and uncles were having you know starting

to have significant health problems so I

wanted to write up what I’ve learned for

them and started writing something up

and then I kept finding you know things

I needed to think more deeply about and

and it kept growing and then I decided

you know once that was done that I

should turn it into a book and and kept

going and then we started a blog and we

kept learning from our from our readers

and then scribner and simon and schuster

came to us and asked us to do a new

version and stand so we did another

round of research and updated everything

and I would say the big you know Eureka

moments are you know things like first

of all if people mostly aren’t deficient

in vitamins they’re mostly defy

minerals and you know so that was one

thing where you know i i’d had kind of a

haphazard record of supplementing things

but i would tend to focus on vitamins

and you know most people don’t need b

vitamin supplements but most people do

need more minerals so that was probably

one of the earliest Eureka moments on I

would say you know once we saw once we

have gotten through all of the

nutritional analysis and saw a picture

of what the diet look like and realized

that it it looked like gourmet cuisine

you know that was that was a major

Eureka moment also realizing that it

looked like breast milk and then

starting to look into some of the

evolutionary explanations and and then

realizing well you know the breast milk

of all the animals is similar so why do

we animals eat different diets and then

looking into that aspect we realized

that it’s really only the digestive

tracts that evolve and the nutritional

needs of animals are pretty much all the

same and that’s why the breast milk is

very similar and I you know so all that

really evolves when animals move to a

different food sources the digestive

track changes in order to convert the

food stuffs into a different set of

nutrients and on you know so humans are

interesting we have a pretty minimal

digestive tract and therefore we need to

eat close to our optimal nutritional

needs and so the animals that can I eat

things that aren’t talking about total

nutrition need to have very big guts to

do a lot of fermentation of the of the

plant foods and transform them into a

different set of nutrients so I yeah

there were a lot of insights and then

and then also i would say in reading a

scribner addition we realized the

importance of lifestyle and you know

things like meal timing other circadian

rhythm entrainement factors and

coordinating the various circadian

rhythm and trainer so coordinating when

you eat with when your expo

delight with when you exercise with when

you get social interactions um those are

all important things to do mmm

interesting well thank you for sharing

that so you get into evolutionary

biology and you talk about how there was

a shift of the sort of hunter-gatherer

to your modern day super market if you

could get into that for a bit I think

that would be interesting um yeah well

there’s a there’s a number of changes so

uh you know one of them is of course the

hunter-gatherers all they had were

natural whole foods and we have those

around the edges of a supermarket but

then in the middle of the supermarket we

have all these manufactured foods which

were put together with only specific

nutrients and are often completely

lacking in other nutrients and so for

the first time you could you can eat

foods that have been designed to appeal

to our brains but that don’t actually

have the nutrients that our brain I

expects and that you know the natural

whole foods that had that same taste

would have provided so it’s now possible

to be malnourished in a way that hunter

gatherers could never have been

malnourished except in starvation you

know so for the first time we can be we

can be overeating calories but under

eating nutrition and that really

wouldn’t have happened in the

Paleolithic and then it’s also possible

now to have totally messed up circadian

rhythms so if you think back in the

Paleolithic it wasn’t that easy to do a

lot of things at night you know you

could you could start a fire but it’s

still not that convenient anyone has

gotten camping it’s not that convenient

to cook and I you know do a lot of work

in the dark

and you know some in the Paleolithic

most of the eating would have been done

in the daytime because that’s when it

was convenient to do all that work and

they would have eaten very little at

night but now we have artificial

lighting we’ve got refrigerators and so

on we can raid them @midnight and it’s

very easy to eat at night so you know a

lot of things have changed our

technology has liberated us in many ways

but it’s it’s also liberated us to do

unhealthy things and we’ve managed to

start doing them in quantity most of us

so I you know it’s definitely it’s it’s

now it’s now essential for people to

educate themselves about what is a

healthy diet what is a healthy lifestyle

and then manage their lives that way

because the environment doesn’t no

longer forces us to live with a healthy

lifestyle it allows us to be very

unhealthy if we choose to live that way

hmm very interesting so what is your

what is your I tend to go to the gym

quite a lot and in kind of the the gym

language they the ketosis is brought up

a lot and avoiding carbs and what’s your

opinion on that well um that’s another

you know we mentioned earlier some of

the restrictive diet approaches that are

sometimes used as therapies for various

things so the vegan low-fat restrictive

diets or the low-carb restrictive diets

and ketosis is it’s another form of

restrictive diet when we’re starved of

carbohydrate and protein then our bodies

start turning fats into ketones and the

ketones can substitute for carbohydrates

in the brain and various other places

and you know so it’s a way of coping

with a carbohydrate restriction and I

and this can actually be beneficial in

certain health conditions

can be beneficial for neurological

function and some other issues and so

it’s you know it’s actually you know a

medically approved therapy for epilepsy

and it works also for many other

neurological conditions like migraines

but it’s um you know like all the

restrictive diets it’s it’s very easy to

become malnourished when you do that if

you’re not eating carbohydrates then

you’re probably not supplying your gut

microbiome with carbohydrates and uh and

you need to get quite a bit of

carbohydrate fiber in order to have a

healthy gut microbiome so and there’s

also a certain plant associated

nutrients and minerals like potassium

that it’s very easy to be deficient in

if you if you’re on a carb restricted

diet and and there are some risks to

getting too much oil also so you know

one of the ways people promote the

generation ketones is by overeating oil

and and that can lead to oxidative

stress and other issues you know with

potentially negative effects on the

heart and in other tissues so um you

know so i would say ketogenic diets

which could be limp ketosis there you

know potentially a powerful therapeutic

option but they’re also tend to be a

risky option and so i wouldn’t recommend

that as a as a routine diet but like i

said you know i recommend intermittent

fasting of 16 hours each night and so

that will start to put you in a little

bit of ketosis or the end of the fast

and that’s not a bad thing uh so you

know you want to be a unit right have a

certain degree of moderation in in

regard to ketosis yeah it does seem like

there needs to be a sort of sense of

balance in all things which makes sense

is there something that you could give

a person may perhaps listening to the

show right now one thing that they can

do that would immediately improve their

overall health um be well nourished you

know so supplemental foods things like

egg yolks I you know really do intend to

improve health look quite a bit I I

would say you know the meal timing the

circadian rhythm all circadian rhythm

and treatment is very powerful for help

it you can easily in studies shorten

people’s lives by six years by

disrupting circadian rhythms and I you

know and just disrupting any one factor

in circadian rhythms like if you don’t

exercise you lose six years off your

life if you get a night shift job you

don’t lose six years off your life you

know or if you get sleep apnea on if you

you know get a lot of loud noises or

bread lights at night then you’ll lose

six years off your life if you don’t get

enough social interactions in the day

then you’ll lose years off your life so

all of those factors are really

important eating at night is associated

with obesity and diabetes and various

Keep the conversation going.