Transcript for Episode 21 – Rak Razam

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hugely fun episode here guys thank you

so much for listening

the human experience is entering the

galactic center of the galaxy my co-host

dr. G is co-pilot our guest tonight is

researcher author and journey a rock

Rossum rock it’s an honor to have you

with us man welcome to hxp thank you

it’s a pleasure to be it rock I find

your work highly intriguing man i really

just briefly could you tell us how you

got into this this work how does one get

into the fields of consciousness and

spirituality in shamanism it’s probably

usually through psychedelics I think

that’s probably the starting point I

don’t know I mean you know you can trace

back personality types or I say you know

not not jokingly relate to some most of

my friends I say we’re all the black

sheep of the tribe I always seem to be

someone who’s um I don’t know it may be

been on the outside looking in no on the

NSA say of the village shaman you have

to be sort of you know of the world but

not in it you need to be sort of on the

edge to have that clearer perspective

maybe that that also applies to a whole

generation of sort of you know a tacos

and shut-ins and you know cyber sort of

fiends who are massing data but for me

personally I guess some it’s just been a

journey of some exploring my own

consciousness and trying to figure out

how that is embedded within a larger

collective consciousness and a planetary

organism and you know just ideas like

this I guess a lot of the starting

points we can all go back to you know

the great parents who terence mckenna

who in many ways is is i guess like the

you know the moses of the old testament

he’s sort of the the prophet who brought

the the Ten Commandments down in you

know in chiseled in stone or in this

sense what he did is really give a whole

trans linguistic palette of language and

of ideas to a whole generation studying

in the well the 70s and 80s and 90s I

first encountered him in the 90s and was

immediately you know sort of mimetic

alee bro mask by him and really a lot of

his ideas I

still fine and I find so many other

commentators as well that I speak to my

global travels we’re all still using the

same sort of syntax and sort of

linguistic all sort of glue to frame a

lot of the the ideas that Terrence did

and I think the challenge now is to go

beyond Terrence and to see a lot of his

things as signposts and as ideas and as

you know catalyst it to get us to look

at this these these realms and that the

same invisible canvas but then to really

go deeper with our own explorations that

our own understandings of them all yeah

yeah man um so that that actually is

perfect and digging right in here how do

you how do you feel about that which is

was once kind of underground and

considered counterculture but now is

starting to become a sort of bleeding

edge and filtering into the mainstream

like for example the work that the maps

institute is doing in graham hancock and

dennis mckenna you’re kind of taking on

this this role as well how do you feel

about that hmm i don’t know if i’ll give

you a single water answer maybe at the

end of my summation here but this is

probably i would say this is the

challenge of our times and you know it’s

it’s not just with previously esoteric

material like psychedelics or shamanism

as the world is becoming a globalized

circuit basically arm it’s shining light

on all the little nooks and crannies and

the hidden things and so we’re seeing

indigenous cultures and subcultures

around the world be exposed into the

light of the globalized society and I

think this is a necessary process but as

we all know the globalized process is

being orchestrated by the powers that be

and the moneyed interest in the elites

and the eventual one-world government

type of streams are I’m not going to get

into this information but if you really

research the facts if your region noam

chomsky if you know your geopolitical

situation it’s really being orchestrated

for the people that own the system you

know like what I see happening beyond

that or deeper than than the

socio-political stratum is it there

there is a well I like to say a galactic

season there’s a seasons of their

seasons of consciousness and his reasons


things happen in certain times and so

the times we’re living in now appear to

be coming full circle back towards some

type of well my shorthand is it’s like

four bar galactic Godhead consciousness

it’s like we’ve come through that whole

2012 meme which was really pointing

towards larger calendrical systems of

time and world ages and so this world

age that were coming into is the start

of a new world age which needs a new

mythology by the way and which is

developing rapidly around us as well but

this process of transformation this

process of integration is tricky because

especially with things like you know I

huascaran shamanism to a large degree we

can talk about this publicly it is

becoming very public information but

then it becomes a fad it becomes a

commodity because you know you look at I

talked about this a lot i did a talk at

the samara shamanic medicine conference

here in in australia but a month ago and

i did an update on something i wrote for

gram Hancock’s website a last year which

was the state of the vine like the state

of ayahuasca 2015 and if you look at

just the the cultural demographics you

have you know it’s it’s it’s being used

you know by a large large subculture of

people across the world which is great

in some senses because it’s actually

having to grow the vine and be

sustainable on some levels but it’s

creating supply and demand issues and

other levels but just on a media level

in a cultural level while the necessary

healing of indigents like I was can

provide and the the opening up of

consciousness to a larger perception of

the world and of the web of life and of

this idea of spirit you know and not

just a consumerist materialist sort of

groove that’s all good and well but but

servicing that on a large scale like

Lindsay Lohan about a year ago last

March or so she tweeted 28 million of

her followers that she had done

ayahuasca to to cope with the emotional

trauma and processing issues around her

miscarriage which that’s what’s

beautiful it’s a beautiful example of

someone who needed the medicine and took

it but the issue and the larger issue is

8 million of her followers now

ayahuasca marie-claire followed it up

all the Hollywood celebrity rags

followed it up as well and the the brand

of ayahuasca is now so hip and so such a

cultural fed to the New York Times last

May did a write-up of it in you know

it’s some it’s lifestyle section and

it’s like so the issues around this is

the West has always and in all ways in

recorded history Western culture when

the so-called first world encountered

third world cultures of the old world

and you know discovered that they were

using plain antigens and then try to

eradicate them because they thought it

was the work of the devil or kill off

the populations as well it’s it’s always

been trying to suppress plant antigens

and suppress this guy and consciousness

and there’s more perhaps feminine

consciousness of this perception of

mother nature and the wait it’s one

species amongst it but as this is coming

to light what what culture is always

done for at least the last five six

hundred years of recorded history every

plane antigen that it hasn’t just

suppressed if it’s absorbed it going all

the way back to stuff like tobacco it

has commodified it and it is diluted it

and it is taken the sacred out of it and

it’s made it a product and so the danger

we’re facing now across the board from

ayahuasca and with Scylla Sabin even

with even with spirituality you know as

a package lifestyle choice even with

meditation even with um you know

entrainment with EEG machines and gaming

industry of of getting into you know

Alpha Beta Gamma Delta states of mind

all the potentials which are necessary

and a fantastic catalyst all of them are

there the danger at the moment is if the

lock on the culture the cultural lock is

still there about the commodity in the

commodification of these things it can

take anything and the system will absorb

it if it can’t destroy it if it can’t

ignore it you know the old saying is

first they ignore you then they fight

you you know then road NE win yeah but

the thing is who is the way who wins

because what happens in that scenario is

if there’s an absorption by the culture

where you get absorbed by the larger

culture and the culture because we can’t

destroy ignore you can’t destroy you so

we’ll let you in but how we do that

so if you look at things like the

medicalization of psychedelics this is

wonderful on one level and it’s totally

supported I’ve been a huge supporter of

maps for many years and they’re doing

some great work there’s just the the the

Beckley foundation in the UK has just

launched a crowdfunding campaign for the

world’s first you know quantitative

electroencephalography scans the EEG

scans and MRI of LSD study of someone on

LSD to understand those regions of the

brain I’ve read a lot of flack online

about people going well that’s

reductionist mechanical science why

would we want to do that I think no we

need to do that we need to embrace both

hemispheres both sort of paradigms of

the mechanical designs and the spiritual

and the sacred but the question is will

science and will the Western materialist

view point will it even acknowledge

spirit will it acknowledged the sacred

you know but I think that we need to

continue along their path and we need to

we need to have focus and we need to

have awareness as we do this but this is

this is the great the great challenge I

think of our generation I see the danger

is that medical psychedelics as Rick

doblin’s the founder of maps as own

vision basically is to have registered

psychologist dispensing MDMA or LSD or

antigens or psychoactive drugs in a

clinical setting which may be nicely

tempered and have mood lighting or even

you know natural sounds but it’s not

it’s not the charmin and it’s not it’s

not the full connection to spirit you

know if you even go all the way back to

the 60s and some of the suicide and

testing LSD place and the Harvard

Divinity School test that they did you

know it’s it’s the fact that they’ve

done recent studies with source of our

mushrooms again looking at this issue of

invoking the divine and this sense of

the numinous there’s something greater

than just our idea of medicine and in

indigenous cultures in in Peru when they

say la medicina they mean something very

different from what we mean by it they

mean that there’s a spirit in it and

what Western culture sees is it is a

drug and they can patent it and they can

control it and they can use it to

commodify and perhaps be a soma for the

masses so you know there is a potential

if we look at the world situation my god

it’s I mean really it’s planet

although it’s planet oil and you know

there’s global surveillance by all the

major nation states there’s repression

there’s all the things that the horrors

of the world are very very stark and

obvious now which hopefully is a

catalyst for people to rise up and take

control of their world and to do that we

need a clear consciousness and that’s

where these substances can be of value

but the danger is they can also be

absorbed and they can be used against us

to to be a soma for the masses so Rach I

fell in love with your Palenque Norte

lecture from last year and the concept

you had up going back to the garden and

that we’re getting the entheogens that

we deserve and we’ve had this kind of

touch-and-go psychedelic Renaissance so

what stage you see us at in this just a

tional archaic revival we’ve been in

since say the end of the in Victorian

area we hit the Star in the 60s why are

the plant medicines and these particular

entheogens such as ayahuasca what we

deserve right now this is a really good

question actually before I get to that

bit what I’d like to say is I really

love to encourage you know the

generation of psychonauts who are out

there to use a lot more of this type of

perspective to use you know I don’t know

maybe it’s not statistical analysis but

to use logic and to use you know

cultural sort of appreciation and maybe

anthropological perspectives to use some

of the tools that different different

arts and sciences have given us and

apply it to the psychedelic dimension

and the shamanic dimension because this

is what we need to do we no longer need

Terence Mckenna he’s done the job he

needed to do and you know what I said

what I say is that my little shorthand

is in the in the 50s and 60s you know

LSD opened the mind in the 80s and

through the 90s ecstasy opened the heart

in the Nauts and on into the 21st

century we’re now seeing this burgeoning

and really rapidly developing culture

around antigens which you know all the

other drugs are still there but the

thing is they don’t have the cash aid

that they used to because they’re not

needed we

had the acid revolution and the acid

revolution totally obliterated the white

picket fence mentality of 1950s

Americana right and of the Western world

and it shifted things it paralleled a

lot of social movements around civil

rights and you know gender and identity

and sexuality and and those things were

already happening we can’t say that acid

per se instigated those things but what

it did is it changed the consciousness

of a mass of people a spike you know and

that was the problem that it created

this equal and opposite reaction when

the establishment had to you know attack

it aggressively like it was a cancer but

it was a virus it was a cultural virus

of consciousness that was instigated by

LSD now a lot of people were responsible

for setting up the vectors of that virus

you know there was the CIA effort for

one as a major instigator the

intelligence er people like I’ll just

Huxley and all the way back to el

Hubbard but the issue is it changed its

shifted consciousness I have a you know

I deeply researched all the psychedelic

history and written about it and I’ve

got a few unpublished non-fiction books

about this as well i did a young a

biography of burials like the the acid

chemistry alchemist of the 60s and in

that i was looking at all the the

history of the 60s and there’s a lot of

synergy around things like why LSD was

on the west coast you know who was

switching on basically the the ground 0

for 4 psychedelics in the west coast in

the late 50s through to the 60s was a

you know around San Francisco but even a

bit further south Palo Alto which became

Silicon Valley and you’ve got to ask why

why did the CIA and people say why did

the CIA from like 19 you know 49 onwards

experiment with LSD looking for a truth

serum originally but then starting to

our fund all these medical

establishments and the psychoanalysis

and psychiatrists and pump out LSD into

the culture its support all the way

through to the late 60s into the haight

ashbury azula’s and those different

factions and different reasons within

those different factions but my theory

is someone you know the Central

Intelligence which is above the agency

itself someone

they were doing and I think what they

were doing is that they were stretching

the envelope of our consciousness back

in the in the 60s they knew it was all

the big experiment but what it did it

was almost like LSD was a psychic

lubricant and what it allowed what it

brought through was what we have now we

have an ability for our minds and this

you know is the Intelligencia and the

scientists and the computer technicians

and all the companies of what became

Silicon Valley they were all using it

for a creativity jug drunk you look at

dr. James Federman who’s written about

this and he did that the last level

stays with LSD but he was specifically

looking at creativity and how it was

being used while it was still legal by

the big corporations and basically you

know if you’re going to bring in

something like computing which they’ve

been working on since you know the Lisa

40s with all the original computers but

it was such a big shift in consciousness

that they they needed you know more

people’s consciousness to shift and so

basically this psychic lubricant meant

that like things then we have this

understanding like you know cloud

computing distributed computing social

networks it’s nonlinear consciousness

and I think LSD broke the way it really

pierced the veil of 1950s linear time

and consciousness and even I mean you

could even you know argue maybe that’s

just what a morphic level but I would

say it’s on a very physical level with

select individuals in different

establishments and then in the culture

itself so that shifted culture and so we

don’t need that shift anymore that and

what what I’m saying is even the players

who on a socio-economic political level

we’re doing it for their vested interest

what I’m saying is there is always a

higher consciousness there is always

more Central Intelligence so there is

there is a cosmic consciousness

happening with these plants then is that

we’re saying well I believe it and

anyone who’s really had a you know a

deep experience on any psychoactive

substance that gets beyond their own ego

these things dissolve the ego when it’s

dissolves you pull into a larger

consciousness whether you’re out in

nature and you realize nature is alive

or you you know whatever levels you go

to but so you know LSD totally shifted

the psychic on

back in the 50s and 60s and then what

happened it petered out you know it

grounded people went back to the earth

it shifted things but then there was

equal and opposite reaction not just

from the establishment making it illegal

and demonizing hippies but then funnily

enough you go through you know

psychedelic rock 70s as it then

disseminated further into the culture of

people who didn’t even take acid but the

the mind frame are changed you know and

that you can see that reflected in the

cultural cues of you know the music and

the fashions and things like that but

then of course after that it’s swung

back again because things go in a binary

pulse and they have all the the the

Yuppie error and the money error and the

big wall stree there and the start of

the globalization era so the powers that

be were orchestrating socially

engineering to bring things back to

their agenda but there’s always a higher

intelligence but in that time we had the

ecstasy boom and we know that you know

that basically even though it’s been

around since the 30s or whatever and

such as children helped popularize that

in the late 70s and there was a cultural

vector of where that came through why

did it come through then this is what

I’m saying if you look at like four

dimensional space-time and step up and

look look at the dominoes falling and

see the patterns right it was I really

believe the culture gets the catalyst

and the antigens or the drugs or the you

know the consciousness browsers as I

called them in my plane cane auto talk

it deserves because we’re being sculpted

we’re being sculpted to play a larger

role and this is what they believe in

shamanism that the humans are here on

the earth to be a bridge between heaven

and earth and we’re basic like energy

transformers and we’re transforming

energy and all the species are we can

see that we can see the way that the

species you know that we might study

will take you know a chaotic system and

create order from it and it’s changing

around energy so there’s there’s a

larger forces at work so the 80s had all

the ecstasy you know generation and they

had the second summer of love in the UK

and you know that was all basically

burst from Goa where because the acid

retain and the the core hippies who went

over to India and Goa retained and made

the music and you know it burst

basically what we have now

global festival electronic music culture

and instead of being that spike of like

a concentrated million people marching

on the Pentagon trying to levitate it

you had like a hundred million people

across the planet quietly pursuing

recreational use of psychedelics but

acid never became a big threat to the

establishment again and it wasn’t needed

by the culture it’s still a beautiful

substance if used properly and it’s a

great initiation tool but it’s it’s not

getting the media attention it’s not a

big thing culturally is just it’s this

is like it’s over it’s kind of a

romantic notion this idea that you know

in 1945 your Oppenheimer is inventing

the atomic bomb and then on the other

hand you’ve got the invention of LSD so

it’s almost a type of balance right it’s

almost quaint it is a quite and you know

a lot of the old-school psychedelic

commentators will tell you this story in

its gotten round it’s become part of the

firmaments of psychedelic mythology

because there is a romanticism to it and

there’s also perhaps something to it

because one of the original natives of

that theory that the fact that acid was

sort of like an antidote to to the

atomic bomb and you know that I think

the Kennish order hand is which much

which mushroom do you want to bloom at

the end of history the atomic you know

bomb cloud mushroom or or that the souls

urban mushroom but one of the original

natives of this whole idea about the LSD

was variously and there’s a lengthy

passage in one of Timothy Leary’s books

and library flashbacks or high priests

when he describes a meeting with Alice

Lee talking about this theory and that’s

how it basically got out Ashley was an

amazing you know super brain and genius

even before LSD non LSD he was you know

the alchemist really like a very

spiritual warrior but also an amazing

intelligence and he studied this thing

and he studied the earth and the earth

has as a living organism which we now

you know back in the 60s this wasn’t we

didn’t see the first shot of the Earth

from outer space until nineteen

sixty-nine it appeared on the whole

earth catalog by Stewart Brand the

famous sort of causing a hippie you know

catalogue book and 1969 wasn’t or NASA

took those photos it’s not until we get

outside the box and look back

I mean we can really see for what I

views and so that idea of the earth is

an organism really only came in right at

the end of the 60s into the 70s but

Ashley had this idea of the AG study

that you know from scientific point of

view and we only got the james lovelock

the ex NASA scientist started to

promulgate this idea of the Gaia

hypothesis only in the 70s right at the

idea of you know Gaia the great goddess

of the earth and the earth is a living

organism nowadays they call it whole

systems theory which really flatlines

the romanticism around a bit aside near

that you know the earth is not just a

living organism it’s an interconnected

interdependent entity which has all

these sub programs within it they’re all

supporting life you know and it’s

obvious now but for some reason just

like almost like the myth of um you know

when we have this movement that I think

it’s Australia but no is it you know the

myth of like weaning indigenous people

you know see the boats coming you know

from where yeah yeah Colin and I can’t I

can’t see the boats because it doesn’t

fit their paradigm it doesn’t go into

their world their belief structure yes

it’s almost the same with us we didn’t

see the earth or Western culture because

all indigenous cultures have always

retained this idea they live on the

earth they understand the rhythms of the

earth they quite often take psychoactive

substances of the earth secretes

specifically for engagement with herself

at higher consciousness levels but

Western culture which had atrophied in

distance itself from spirit and from the

earth um didn’t understand it worth was

living organism so Ashley you know

really dropped this idea but he also

took on board the science and there’s

you know different layers to the earth

you get into the upper atmosphere the

ionosphere and different different

levels they’re actually blocking out the

the UV rays and the deadly you know deep

space radiation you know and so without

those upper envelopes of protection we

would be we would be out life on earth

would not be possible you know it’s a

very very delicate balance to have life

on it a perfect equilibria and you know

physicists say these science

acknowledges this and they just dumb

they just excuse it away with it with a

phrase you know and say well it’s just

it’s just this we can’t explain it let’s

not think about it too much but it’s

quite magical that life exists at all

those upper levels of the atmosphere

show that the the one

that the womb of Earth fears is

radiation so as Lee you know took that

along to the next extension and said

Jesus like imagine if you’ve got a human

body and some microbes in your body

start to like you know bomb you with

radiation it’s like it’s like it’s like

chemotherapy from the inside but it’s

like in cancer is like that the human

race as a viral cancer cell gone rogue

from the web of life and fallen out of

the right relationship with the planet

is now dropping atomic freakin bombs

it’s splitting atoms and if radiation is

the one thing that the earth fears so

that that’s equivalent to a cancer in

the Earth’s system so what is the earth

going to do what is higher intelligence

going to do what does an interdependent

um you know equilibrium system do it

counterbalances and so his theory was

and I must say it’s romantic but there’s

something to it and I think again the

challenge of this generation of

academics and scientists and and just

psychonauts is to look more deeply at

these type of issues and apply more

rigorous you know intelligence and

science and systems to it to see how

much versity there is but in the the

mythology is the thing it’s like albert

hofmann 1938 just on the cusp of war you

know in Switzerland which is neutral of

course with the rise of Nazis albert

hofmann documented on record was in

Switzerland and especially basil Basel

Switzerland was in medieval times the

home of the alchemists you know they

know very well all about um not just you

know the lead to gold ideas but they

know very well about altered

consciousness there was st. Elmo’s fire

which was you know the Ergo which would

develop on the barley rye in the bread

and in Middle Ages people would be

tripping balls and getting gang

gangrenous legs and dying and stuff but

the thing is it was quite well known it

was quite well known that there were

fungus is out there that would cause you

to have altered states especially in

Basel which was um you know hundreds and

hundreds of years of esoteric knowledge

and you know is only around 1600s or so

that science and basically mysticism

split you know you look at certain

scientists back then or what there would

be now configured scientists and though

they were Alchemist you know so that the

heritage and the legacy who is there

there’s there’s also this idea there was

a novel written called st. Peter’s snow

you can get it on ebay i think the

author’s name is pearl it’s something

like that but basically the plot of st.

peter snow is this basically analog of a

go ergo rye is developed by a modern

scientist turned into a drug and

switches on the world right they came

out in 1922 so way before 1938 and it

was it was read by all the Intelligencia

it was very well-known book at the time

basil knew all about this Albert Hofmann

was in a basically a spiritualist group

because he was a very spiritual man at

his 2006 birthday hundredth birthday

symposium and Basel Switzerland again

which I was present at he told us all

about his childhood he told us his

secret origin he basically said when he

was six you know in in Basel Switzerland

living in the countryside elevated now

this is before EMF frequencies when

everyone like indigenous people still

have now have a more of a tune

sensitivity to nature and so he

basically said he was a mystic he was a

mystic child going through the fields

the colors would saturate his

consciousness would alter right and he

was used to altered states and he

retained that sensitivity and that’s not

something he would talk about in

chemical circles or he’s he’s in a

public discourses around that but he

admitted that to us and that’s on the

public record from Basel Switzerland

it’s also on the public record that he

was in basically a spiritualist groups

and spiritualism was very huge in the

19th century into the early 20th century

and you know as I said there’s a legacy

of this this around around Switzerland

so the question is you have a chemist

who is you know an immaculate chemist a

very accomplished professional in his

field who was experimenting with a guy

right you know purportedly to look at

you know helping with childbirth issues

and and and things like that but who

knows very well what what happens with

override derivatives and psychoactive

effects 1938 with the rise of Nazism is

in a spiritualist group in the novel

the the analog novel written 922 this is

exactly what happened a chemist invents

this thing has a spiritualist group and

then you know decides do they let it out

out to the world and by 1938 I think

that the the the the thinking of some

people within the psychedelic community

is that the bicycle day story is again

mythological and it is the cover story

for albert hofmann because when it is

translated into english when he says ok

1938 i made 25 variations of LSD I had

no what they had no effect you know

tested them on animals whatever couldn’t

see anything happening put them on a

shelf in one day April 16 maybe you know

nineteen nineteen forty-three um oh my

god I had a strange presentiments that’s

the English translation in German it’s

actually a lot stronger it’s like worgen

hot something like that I’m pretty

mispronouncing it but in German it means

more than a presentment it means like a

voice or it means that he was guided

because he’s a mystic and he is

sensitive it’s something told him to go

back to the LSD so on that level there’s

already it’s deviating from the

scientific you know sort of spectrum but

what people have said David Nicholls who

has sort of taken up Alexander Shogun’s

preeminence as a the world’s like it’s

leading chemist and it’s work with the

American government in looking at

psychedelic chemicals making them for

the FDA he did a 2004 mine States talk

looking at Albert Albert Hoffman’s first

April 16 trip it lasted something like

two hours it was very unusual it didn’t

hit any of the right beats if he had

have got dosed it didn’t last long

enough the characteristics were there

people are thinking either Albert

Hofmann had a mystical spontaneous

experience like a schizoid type of

experience or a sensitivity to the thing

but it doesn’t add up the other

political issue is with the rise of

Nazism and Hitler conquering everything

around albert hofmann may have chosen to

shelf the lsd-25 knowing that it was

psycho acted and wait until the tide of

the war was turning in 43 but what


this time as well to come full circle

this story if that the manhattan project

is taking off the you know the Americans

are working with the atomic bomb they’re

doing the testing the first manhattan

project testing of the bomb and the

first album 16 announcement by albert

hofmann that the fls d exist in the

world was six months apart and so the

psychedelics folklore says perhaps these

higher intelligence when it couldn’t get

through the white picket fence mentality

of the world when the garden and the

plant entheogens and mother nature had

been totally you know like concreted

over and distance from by majority of

people living in cities and that the

powers that be in the military

industrial complex it couldn’t get

through the garden couldn’t get through

on that level so perhaps the sensitivity

of this misty chemist gave him the

strange presentment albert go back to

your discovery go have a look perhaps he

was guided on that level as an antidote

to the bomb because the only thing that

the earth actually really is deadly it

fears you know there can be a giant

asteroid fall on the earth it’ll be a

short but the earth will self regulating

it will shrug that off over a couple of

centuries or whatever but radiation is

the big killer so in a self equilibria

lysing system which we know the earth is

ah it’s got a can of balance and if

something you can see this map on

youtube there’s a video on youtube it

shows you all the atomic bomb blasts for

the last you know seventy years or so 67

years and it’s just it’s just endemic

it’s just like Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing

Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing it was such a

pressure on the planetary system that

yes i think the planet must have you

know bounce back and forth back and

there we have LSD you know it’s like the

Henry T Ford of psychedelics is coming

out on the assembly line it works and

you know the most minut quantities and

it got out to the world and it shifted

the consciousness of dominated culture

which was you know are responsible for

attacking the planet from within and

then you had the rise of which was

already happening but you have the rise

of the anti-war movement of people you


who were changing their consciousness

and in on a socio-political level the

argument is a year at the CIA gave LSD

to the masses because I wanted to detour

or defang or stop the anti-war movement

because once you took LSD you didn’t

bother I don’t believe that’s

necessarily true the turn on the tune in

drop out thing came a bit later in the

chronology but you know it changed the

consciousness of people to really join

the anti-war movement on some levels but

to to steer a different course with with

their culture and with civilization so

there’s lots of mythopoetic romantic you

know strands to to look at here and I

really hope that are some cultural

anthropologists to dig deeper with it

because there’s a lot of unanswered

questions yeah wow wow man I didn’t even

really have to ask you any my question

just ripped through all okay so to bring

to bring it back and yeah I agree

completely there is this global

resurgence of these tools as medicines

and we do seem to have this there there

does seem to be nature doesn’t create

junk and and we you know the planet is

kind of taking care of itself but just

to bring you back into the sphere of

things man how how do you think

ayahuasca tourism is affecting what’s

happening why do you think people are

more drawn to going into the jungle and

taking this medicine acid in the sixties

ecstasy in the 80s 90s and then plan and

engines predominantly spearheaded in the

public consciousness by ayahuasca in the

north so we get to this stage over white

picket fence 50s change of consciousness

in the 60s you know opening of the heart

chakra in the 80s and we know that MDMA

basically became commodified and there’s

now you know five bucks and your local

pub everywhere in the Western

civilization it gets absorbed and

commodified but on a certain level

something shifted there as well in like

the morphic field or the you know the

field of humanity in there but we then

became ready to go back to the to the

jungle to the garden and we were ready

for plant entheogens where you know

we weren’t ready to go back to the

jungles in the 50s or 60s or 70s some

very you know early adopters did you

know that William Burroughs went down to

pull copper and the jungles of Peru in

the 50s and took a huascaran ran

screaming fleeing from the cosmic wet

vagina that he experienced on the on the

astral level you know because that’s a

power afraid but it’s something along

those lines sadly patent-pending said

but we weren’t ready for it was so out

there the idea of nature you know as a

consciousness and as an alive sort of

sentient being that actually we’re

embedded in it’s the equivalent of

realizing we are microbes within a

larger body and that we are not the

center of things you know it’s totally

changes the whole human centric

perspective it’s like we are in the

mother and we are one species amongst

many so anyway so it’s taken until you

know the late 20th century and now into

the 21st century where there’s been this

slow trickle of early adopters going

back to the jungles because it was the

time for it and it was ready for it and

the garden was ready to reimburse and

the culture was ready to go looking for

it and so you know for twink there’s

been I was collages now in Peru for over

20 years almost 25 years now and so

there’s been a slow catering to the

needs of the Western seeker in a more

tourists type dynamic where originally

it was a very you know Terrance and

Dennis McKenna up the jungle with

letrero in 1971 you know it was a huge

expedition that you had to be crazy to

do it we’re now I just have to jump on a

plane and you’re fully catered to and

get taken from the airport but this has

been a slow cultural evolution and as

the socio-economic sort of you know

vectors develop around it it’s become

big money so number one I think that

it’s time for it it’s time for

reintroduction to planetary antigens

because it’s not just about so-called

drugs or recreational States or whatever

it’s about medicines and the biggest

thing about the medicines is there is a

spirit in the medicine and there is a

spirit in us and

the two spirits is where the healing

occurs many many people are basically

starting to revere and dfi ayahuasca you

know the goddess the madre i have done

that too and there is you’ve gotta pay

respect you know if you go to a foreign

country and visit the Queen you know you

do your little curtsy and do you bow but

on the inside you know that you are a

sovereign being too so basically you

know all the plant antigens I believe

are sort of subprograms of the gain

intelligence so the gain intelligence is

the macro program right and then there’s

subprograms and you know even this

language which now we know from

computers and my earlier argument was

that the psychedelics stretched out you

know the psychic lubricant stretched our

consciousness to bring in terms because

there’s his whole thing if you don’t

have a language to anchor the ideas it’s

like a lucid dream it comes and it goes

and you don’t you come out of it you

can’t remember or you can’t describe it

if you can’t describe the feeling it’s

lost and that’s in 1984 that’s all well

you know that’s what they were doing to

try to one dilute the language down so

people couldn’t even understand the word

rebellion or revolution or or that there

was something missing they couldn’t put

their finger on it so what entheogens

fee-only silicide burn especially is it

helps as a linguistic or catalyst it

helps us you know stretch out our

language which is part of our

consciousness to anchor the feelings and

anchor the experience and so with

ayahuasca I’m talking about this fear of

medicines there are many many different

plan antigens and I believe that you

look at things there’s different

bioregions on the planet and looking at

the planet is a macro organism it’s like

mapping the human body say like well

where are the calcium deposits in our

body where are the white blood cells you

know where’s the iron go how does the

blood pump is a system to it there’s a

rhythm to it there’s a reason for it so

same with the macro organism of the

planet so you know we should not be

taking uranium out of the ground and

building freaking nuclear bombs from it

it’s ridiculous it’s a double double

whammy not plus good it’s in either the

Australian Aboriginals are

believe that the uranium is one of their

sacred substances they know it they

don’t call it uranium but its orbit

where they’re digging it up here in

Australia there the Sacred Lands and

their sacred because it has a substance

in the land which changes the energetic

and they feel it they know it they know

the energetics of that bioregion sit in

a similar way the buyer regions and the

energetics are shaped in a causal

relationship with the planet to secrete

NT agents this is both what bear hours

Lee said as well and berries just you

know one of the prime founders of modern

psychedelic culture and he doesn’t get a

lot of airplay a lot of his ideas some

of his ideas at least were taken up by

terence mckenna who repeated and

reformatted them they both had this idea

of planetary XO pheromones they’re

saying that what if nature look at

different species and we understand that

nature doesn’t just talk in vibration

sound patterns she talks in chemical

languages she secretes these pheromones

that certain insects and you know

secrete to engage with the plants you

know I was talking some to get someone

the other day and I was saying that the

DMT containing acacia’s here in

Australia there’s a certain variety

which are in synergy and partnership

with the ants and the ants take the

little bud of the plant and they carry

it because it’s got something they want

in it and they bury it underground and

that’s where the DMT acacia’s are ready

and when fires go through they germinate

and they it’s incredibly synergistic

there’s all these different species that

work in concert it’s not just Darwin’s

very flatlined linear non psychedelic

idea of survival of the fittest that is

at work within the system but that’s a

3d system you’ve gotta look at a four or

five D system and sissy the cooperation

models and the synergy any other way

that nature works with all her or her

creatures because they’re all part of it

that nature clothes herself in the skin

of the species I mean that that’s it

that’s really what is happening right

that’s the macro object and that’s how

she self regulates so the medicines of

the psychoactives mckenna analysis

theory was that they are EXO pheromones

they’re working to regular

some of her other species including the

humans and some of the other higher

mammals and primates that tape them and

they’re there for a reason you know and

things like the Silla cyber mushrooms

they often are certain strands of them

grow in regions which have been

devastated and logged where the trees

have been logged and in the wood chips

is where the mushrooms grow and Paul

Stamets has the the famous mycologist

has this whole you know riff on all this

it seems to me that the earth is bio

remediating itself it’s repairing itself

by secreting these things and as part of

that remediation it’s trying to fix the

consciousness of the creatures cutting

down the forest not just to weave the

soil together and to bind the soil which

it does with certain plants like latonya

and other plants which work really well

the mushrooms are actually the first

line of guy and defense to change the

consciousness of the invasive species

and this is why you need that we need to

step up and look from a large

perspective about what’s going on so

with this understanding of antigens and

what their role is in the planetary

ecology their role is to engage with the

species and you know talking of us

specifically we know that you know is

what Terrans called Dominator culture

it’s it’s out of control the monkeys are

out of control and we are out of balance

it’s connor squatty we’re out of balance

with nature we don’t understand right

relationship so all of the antigens are

secreted in different bioregions and

it’s very important that people in some

senses get to know their local by our

regions because you know Australian

Aboriginals have this understanding of

the land and most indigenous cultures do

you know and a deep resonance with it

and you know if you’re born on the land

you are indigenous to the land as well

or if you spend lots of time there and

your energy is a meshing with the the

energetic fields fields of the land you

are becoming part of that landscape it

structures your energy it structures

even your language you look at certain

tribal cultures and you know their

language is is either speeded up maybe

in cities or slow down in the country

and its shaped on that level but the the

antigens that are available locally to

you and this changes with climate you

know you look you look at different

parts of the world have had entheogens

previously throughout the historical


and the climate has changed and you know

that they’re not there anymore but the

earth keeps rolling it over and changing

and growing more antigens so ayahuasca

has been a very successful planetary

avatar working on behalf of the guy in

mainframe and she’s not the only one so

she’s been getting all the press

specifically because she’s a very

effective healer now there’s lots of

different angles to this and lots of

different levels of discourse we could

talk about in many indigenous cultures

in South America ayahuasca was

traditionally just the benefit officers

carpet cabo vine and that’s because it’s

a you know it’s a very good cleansing

agent it’s a purgative it cleans out any

intestinal bugs that people in the pan

amazon region may have that’s

specifically why they were really using

it and the curanderos or what we call

them the shamans they would open up

perhaps their energetic or visionary

capabilities to travel on the astral and

inter dimensional planes but they would

do that on behalf of their patients the

patients wouldn’t do it in most many

regions of South America it’s only been

this cultural cultural appropriation and

this supply and demand where Westerners

because all of our experiences in the

60s with say LSD and I would say our our

relationship with television and our

relationship with the cinema which is

over a hundred years old you know when

the cinema was first introduced and that

people would see it they could not

ascertain that it wasn’t real you know

that’s see a train coming up at them on

on the black and white you know silent

movie theater and they would scream and

I would run in that day I had to get

their heads around this magic of cinema

because we are visually driven creatures

and you know the the eye is directly

connected to the neocortex yada yada

yada but in Western culture we have

relied upon the visionary component i

would say because we have lacked and we

have atrophied the feeling component the

intimacy of feeling and intuition and

connection to spirit because if you’re a

blind man and you’re connected to

screwed and feeling this birds and

feeling mother nature that’s all you

need you don’t need to see it’s all

about the feeling so many curandera

even say now it’s not about the visions

in the ayahuasca experience the visions

are somewhat akin to if you’re in the

dentist’s office and you’re getting

operated on they put on the TV to

distract you while the healing is

happening really that’s that’s that’s

you know the baseline but because

Westerners want the visions because that

makes it real to them that makes it that

they can believe it because they see it

and this is only one stage of it it’s

only that first wave of trust of going

right something’s going on I can see it

but you know essentially a majority of

the visions according to my

understanding of what new curanderos

have told me a basically processing of

emotional catharsis and reactions and

things happening within the body even

when they’re seeing in two dimensional

scenes and whatever sure maybe there’s

that aspect but on some level great

majority the visionary component is some

reaction to the interaction of ayahuasca

as it’s healing you it might be like

it’s like a you know vegetal

psychoactive screensaver going on

there’s something happening maybe

showing you stuff but whatever but they

all say it’s not about the visions it’s

about going deeper with the work you

know McKenna had this same riffin about

talking about DMT it was like if you if

you get to the level of like the DMT

elves or whatever they’re saying yes yes

watch watch look look it’s like no like

get beyond them they’re sort of like

holding your attention so you don’t go

deeper into the experience there’s

something deeper than that and that’s

where the really interesting stuff lies

so this idea of medicine in the West is

basically they understand drugs and they

understand the neuro chemical component

but in indigenous cultures and medicine

means it has a spirit in it and the

spirit engages with your spirit and

that’s where the healing it just doesn’t

do the work the spirit of ayahuasca

isn’t necessarily healing you on a

physical you know you’re a little level

yes as a purge it of it is cleaning you

out but in regards to your emotional

body and your traumas which then get

buried in your energetic body it’s

asking you to step up and to see

yourself and to revisit your traumas and

then to let go with them and it’s asking

you to recognize you are the medicine

within as well and so it’s a spiritual

act and this is what the West is

relearning the word spirit is only is

only slight

more respectable in Western culture than

religion which is just gone let’s just

drop religion no what no one likes that

term really even though originally it

means and Latin to reconnect or to

reweave which then makes us ask what are

we reconnecting to its nature that’s the

original religion is nature so where

there’s all these stepping stones of

understanding and I see the great

majority of Westerners going down you

know in search of ayahuasca in search of

healing it’s not really a recreational

thing but people in the West and

curanderos of sin desayuno y mor bellows

assists in my book I awakenings that you

know the majority of people he sees in

the West might not have a physical

sickness but they have a spiritual

sickness a sickness of were they

disconnected they don’t feel connected

to their own spirits or to the world

spirit and that’s the real key people

are going through the ayahuasca

experience to re-engage with this sense

of spirit but you know if you don’t like

that word change it whatever it is is

energetic you know template that is

alive and vibrant and is at the core of

your being and is at the core of the

planetary being and not only they’re not

separate you know we are the planet we

are the clothes the skin of the planet

where this thing that she has created

and it’s all in concert and it’s all in

in a play with each other that all the

systems are engaging with another and

there is a greater purpose even if we

haven’t discovered it yet so rock from a

pure Darwinian perspective it seems that

ayahuasca is operating outside of the

confines of evolution and it’s not even

really playing by its rules because you

have the two plant components that

combine the copy and the chick Runa and

you know these plants that are similar

to cannabis how cannabis manufactures

molecules with the power to change our

subjective experience reality whatever

we call consciousness right so we know

that the plants don’t want to be

consumed if they have saved bitter

tasting outplayed compounds and plants

that do want to be consumed as a

reproductive strategy let’s say they

have an abundance of sugars like apples

but in my personal experience the

ayahuasca brew blended from these two

separate plants is to put it mod ly

horrific and if anything it’s the only

thing I’ve tasted that gets worse

time do you feel there’s a sense of

having to earn the experience or there’s

perhaps a barrier to entry that these

two plants are exhibited to kind of

safeguard its power because it seems

that a the two compounds the DMT and the

maoi do not occur together naturally in

any single plant that I know of they do

they do okay it is something widely

reported no one wants to everyone out

there harvesting there’s a certain

acacia’s and certain plants that do

contain both the the Mao and the the DMT

and they have been used by indigenous

cultural people oh here’s the thing I

agree you know there is a thing about

the bitter plants but the funny thing

it’s late it’s about alkaline in your

body you know it versus the the acidic

sort of food so weird in Western culture

which cause sickness and cancers and

things like that I mean the the reason

why the bitter things are often thought

of as the medicines is that they’re you

know usually the things which are

healthier for you ayahuasca is not

always better though I mean it can be

sweet you can get some sweet ayahuasca

is depending on the curandero and the

brew and how they’re preparing it in

there are natural sugars within

ayahuasca and they just need to be

maintained and not boiled off and not

you know lost in the in the process but

ultimately here’s the thing is there’s a

commentator Gayle high pine who as a

moderator on the ayahuasca dot com

forums and you can look on the I

awakenings YouTube playlist because

there’s a discussion with her from the

the panel discussion after the film

screened in Portland last year and she’s

done a lot of research like an

typological research on this and looked

at the different tribes and its really

only from the 1950s onwards that dmt in

any large quantities was used by tribes

in the in the at least the pan Amazonian

or the Peruvian sort of region before

that I mean there’s always anomalies and

Zois you know exceptions to the rule but

it generally it seemed that the

ayahuasca was called ayahuasca because

it was just the vine and it has only

being as mystique so use and then after

the mosquitoes the Westerners and the

gringos coming had been after the the

qualities and a visionary component of

the DMT experience in the brew that has

been added more often to the bruise so

traditionally as a medicine ayahuasca

is not even had the dmt again it’s I

would say that it’s a supply and demand

and a an issue about the the people that

want it I mean you know most of the you

know the Shipibo tradition which is

predominantly what’s becoming the global

perception of ayahuasca is is some this

evolution from the Shipibo tradition

they originally the curandero would

drink on behalf of the patient but the

patient would not drink ayahuasca and so

you know that got changed around with

tourism and so and so what’s happening

very quickly now the other thing i

didn’t mention is that they know that

your people also you know call I what’s

good one of the short hands is jungle

television and their culture because

they’ve been embraced by basically

globalization you know Peru prove

there’s I huascaran Ecuador and Colombia

and Brazil in many of those regions so

it’s still either within the church as a

centered I me aur in a more it’s a

different voice it’s not it’s not driven

by tourism it’s really the Peruvian

tradition which has proven successful as

a global brand to bring ayahuasca to the

world and within the Peruvian tradition

it even arose even further down to pull

carp or any ketosis and maybe tarapoto

but essentially a Kiki toss so the

Shipibo Cano bow tribe of that region

had become the the brand ambassadors of

ayahuasca if you will and you know what

they’ve also because I’ve been trading

their handicrafts and they’re woven

fabrics and very quickly you know in the

Peruvian historical record they’ve gone

through you know the mestizo Peruvians

have been you know under assault by

Westerners the rubber boom and the turn

of the 19th 20th century the oil boom in

the mid 20th century another ayahuasca

boom so they have constantly been

colonized and exposed to Western culture

and if you go up the Amazon now in Peru

you go up on a slow boat and there’ll be

no truckloads of inca kola on the boats

and TVs and and it’s just it’s shocking

it’s like you know not to say that

people don’t deserve a certain level of

lifestyle choice but it’s the worst

aspects of Western culture are getting

exported to the Peruvians and as part of

that things like you know an

understanding of television and even now

the internet and things like they get


fastly get fed back into their cultural

matrix and put into their their ceremony

so they described by Oscars as jungle TV

or they will incorporate you know UFOs

as part of the motifs that in their

drawings and things that they say they

see in the ayahuasca trance and they

will change the beacons the constituents

CEO of the brew of the the thing to make

it more palatable to Westerners although

put more DMT in there because that’s

what the tourists want you know so what

we think of ayahuasca and this is

unbroken heritage and this sacred you

know experience it’s it is a sacred

experience but it’s also basically it is

the global sacrament and in the West or

indeed the one globalized world which is

dominated by Western interests it is a

brand and it is a constructed brand

which has been mutating and has been

finessed and has been groomed just by

cultural vectors to be not what it once

was and so it’s still evolving you know

they’re they’re seeing it seems to me

that the consciousness itself seems to

be this this noble point at which we

sort of filter information and as we use

these substances to affect our evolution

and and kind of transcend time space and

bring in this these higher dimensions of

consciousness we are moving more towards

our true purpose and who we truly are

we’re seeing that more and more and more

how how do you think this is going to

affect our goal as a species and within

our our role on the planet and in the

galaxy you lost some very good questions

I mean these are the key things we need

to be talking about a psychedelic

culture we shouldn’t be going around the

same old circles and even as I said at

the start like you know regurgitating

the same tropes of like Makenna or Larry

other they’re great building blocks but

these are the we’re different culture

now we’re needing to face and integrate

these type of things so what is our

purpose and what is the purpose of us

engaging with psychedelics or antigens

what do they reveal to us and so what I

would posit they reveal is that yes we

are spiritual beings and we have an

unbroken energetic connection

the web of life we are embedded within a

living and loving organism on some level

that is regulating its species and it

too has a purpose within the larger

galactic energetic chain of being within

the Galactic ecosystem and within the

universal ecosystem and so you know it

does get bigger and bigger and it’s good

not to lose track of things one of the

most fascinating areas i find lately is

like astrobiology and astrophysics where

they’re getting some amazing you know

proven scientific data that’s changing

everything about their understanding of

the galaxy as an organism and how that

trickles down to our solar system and

then to our the Sun and the earth and

the relationships therein as you know

energetic sort of conduits and what’s

really happening and so if you look at

what our purpose is I don’t know III

lean upon you know this Armenian

philosopher gur Jeff if you heard of

good GF and here’s his hollow idea of

you know spirituals of ideas like

energetically our our conscious labor on

the earth where outputting energy you

know we are energy receivers and

transmitters with consciousness

receivers and transit transmitters and

we are we’re processing energy here on

in the planetary ecosystem along with

the other species and so our conscious

labor or our our energetic output this

interdependent web of life and the web

of life continues blunt beyond the

planetary envelope you know it’s a huge

Daisy wheel of cosmic creation where

energy it’s all energy but its energy

feeding and finessing itself through

cascading sort of machinery of stellar

systems and planetary systems and you

know at all it’s all life on some level

of being um but here’s his hot air eager

GF of us feeding the moon the moon

fitting the Sun the Sun feeding the

Galactic Sun and it goes on in you need

to input output needs to be in

equilibrium and there seems to be I that

resonates with me in some of my

experiences if you look at the IRA

awakenings film which I do recommend you

check it out re awakenings calm /watch

these you know there’s a very deep 10

minute or so five meo dmt sequence back

when it was legal done in peru in 2006

but in that that’s the only time i’ve

done five meo and you know it’s it’s the

you know they say it’s like the the the

star on the top of the Christmas tree

and all the other entheogens baubles on

different branches of the tree but five

meo is the white light tunnel godhead

experience and in my experience that was

true and you go into very deep bardot

states which have beyond normal

tryptamine DMT levels of engaging with

entities or visions or geometries it’s

pure white light tunnel and my shorthand

for it was it being fully conscious in

this experience it was like the Super

Hadron Collider of hyperspace right and

I could feel and again this is it when

you have a new death experience and the

endogenous DMT in your body that you

know they say at birth to death at

childbirth whatever there’s different

times in your life when you have this

naturally occur it’s this deep

connection to spirit and what it shows

you is the deep Bardo states of where we

come from this is what I believed I was

feeling this and we’re talking about

visions and seeing and how Westerners

are so hooked on the visions when you’re

in the white light five meo experience

there’s nothing and everything it’s the

void and the void is pregnant with

consciousness and energy and it looks

like nothing it’s the blank slate but

it’s the void from which all things

spring right it’s the God headers of the

mystics have said all through all

through time but the thing I felt and

this is why we need to sharpen our

feeling and now intuition and all these

parts of our capacity of being human

that Western dominated culture has

suppressed so we can just have logic and

have you know physical existence and be

logical about it all that sort of more

feminine intuition and feeling is part

of the human package and when you go

into these spiritual realms and

especially in the white light tunnel

where there is nothing to see you all

you’ve got left is your intuition and on

that level it’s all about feeling and

what I felt was that there was this

force there was this omnipresent being

and it was there was waves of any

you comin at me and those waves of

energy were interacting with my

energetic field and they were rippling

through it and intersecting with it and

then opening my filled up and it was

like the drop was rejoining the ocean

and it didn’t end there what I realized

as the waves were coming at me they

would hit they would cascade and what

would come off me was my vibrational

field memories like everything I

installed within everything you

experience you store within your

energetic body if it’s there within you

its shape to its formed you and it’s

left an impression like data on a hard

drive right so imagine our soul with

some type of energetic guest out hard

drive and everything we experience is

stored on it and when we go full circle

in the reciprocal relationship with with

these divine cosmic intelligence at the

other who’s guiding everything it it

feeds off the data if the data comes off

us and goes we’re freed of the burden of

everything that we have experienced and

we remember that we are it and we always

were it and the wave-particle dynamic

thing wavicle singh comes full circle

and it’s like oh yeah that’s right I’m

it I mean that’s what that’s what I felt

right but the interesting thing which is

often overlooked is that it was and

feeding as a loaded you know term but it

was reading the data and it was getting

something from it it was growing from

and this is a thing you know they say

that all the Mystics in the world to

spend all their time trying to get back

up to God and when you get there what do

you find God is in the process of

incarnadine coming down here and being

us why I mean it because it’s a feedback

loop we know nature is an equilibrium it

works in cycles that works in rhythms no

energy is lost and it’s very lean and

elegant and efficient and what it does I

liken it to the condensation cycle of

moisture it goes up it comes down it

goes up that comes down it feeds through

but in the process something is gained

something more than just the entropic

loss is created it’s information and

information is basically the building

blocks of life

right and so the Godhead is feeding from

incarnated as what appears to be

individuated entities on the Material

Plane because when they when the forms

give way and the soul or the the

energetic hard drive is released back

into the ocean of the Godhead it has

gained more information and so it’s the

feedback loop like I remember your

original question but I hope that’s do

you feel that we’ve reached kind of this

palpable marker or nav point as a

species deep down we’re kind of over

this physical manifestation form and

we’re yearning to move beyond it and

gain more actual understanding we’ve

kind of one this chapter of the life

game will kind of done with the monkey

meat puppet body and we want to peek

behind the veil and kind of talk to the

wizard as an equal what what is the next

chapter and tell you think I thinks I

think that’s essentially a transhumanist

wet dream and as I said no it’s like the

Godhead is rapidly and always

omnipresent Lee incarnating as matter as

species as a lot right and so on one

level you know you look at different

mysticism xand you look at this idea of

getting off the wheel of karma or of

getting back into the center of the

target and rejoining you know God and

not having to come back and in car day

and Western culture that is relearning

spirituality is having to figure out

there its own game rules in its own

contours in may be taking on board some

other cultures you know spiritual

spiritual maps at the same time but I

think it comes back to again what we’ve

discussed already is that because the

traditional Western culture has been

distanced and devoid of a connection to

spirit it creates an equal and opposite

reaction of a hunger for spirit and so

in that hunger we are engaging with

entheogens we’re learning that the the

you know the energetic interdimensional

and galactic ecology is full of entities

and spirits and you know life

essentially and then there’s this

romanticism to let go of the physical

body but if you really have a spiritual

practice and hone it and work at it it’s

about honoring the gift of the

vessel to hold the divinity that we

really are and you know I really believe

this it’s like you know if if you have

an acorn tree and you have just the the

the seed of it and if it’s cut down

early it hasn’t reached its full

fruition and its full potential that has

been invested in it through the life

process you know and so I believe that

the best way and the best approach to

spirituality and the best use of

antigens I’m really getting to this

stage and III think it’s an exciting

stage of getting to work with modalities

like yoga and meditation and you know

rib breathing you know sort of the yogic

breathing practices to hone my body and

to make that a better vehicle because it

also improves my spirit and my

consciousness and then it also makes

that consciousness and spirit more able

to navigate and to be effective in those

antigenic realms and I think that we’re

coming to a unification of very arcade

cultural lessons and modalities I was

going it’s improved and we had a yoga

teacher who was great and she had this

book on kriya yoga it’s like a it’s

coming back to popularity it’s sort of

the basis for Kundalini Yoga but it was

like a thousand-page book and I was

reading chapters over many days and they

were describing what is consciousness

what is presence what is the visionary

state are what happens when you get your

simple things that are dispersed with

the catalyst of antigens thing happens

naturally with deep state of meditation

and many of these cultural traditions

all the way back to the original

Sanskrit and the mudras and the asanas

they practiced you know entheogenic

states of mind they had their own

catalyst and they were entwined with

their practice it only became a left

hand right hand path and politicized as

the infusions fell out and went into the

press crafts and different traditions

and then um you know they make this kept

them with the with the modalities

without the infant Jenny catalyst but

the root origin of many many of

basically all the world religions aware

religions Abrahamic religions had

Matthew Jenny catalyst and even in the

Middle Eastern and different traditions

of consciousness they had entheogenic

traditions as well and it wasn’t about

just using antigens or just using

consciousness modalities it was about

together they are they have the same

root structure and they are more

effective and essentially i do believe

as well that the end result is you know

what kizi said in the 60s about you know

can you pass the acid test it’s about

graduating from the catalyst and being

able to do it ourselves and what I feel

is that we’ve only got like six to ten

thousand years of recorded history and I

feel that at some stage within the world

ages we did have the ability to

endogenous Lee engage with these

potentials we know that with the EEG and

MRI scans I’ve done with substances like

silicide burn LSD and ayahuasca in

different tests they now have proven

they switch off the default mode network

in the brain these regional clusters of

the brain which are engaged with

maintaining the sense of ego and

identity and when they switch those

sections of the brain off the brain at

large receives more signal and it’s not

the substance like Scylla sub and LSD is

metabolized in the human body and brain

within 19 minutes they’ve proved that in

their 1960s you don’t usually feel the

effects before half an hour so it’s not

it’s not that the catalyst it’s our

brains and so with the all of these

things including ayahuasca seem to be

training wheels from the planetary

mainframe to go all right monkeys let’s

do it one more time here we go I’ve been

working over generations to get you

ready for this and so I believe the next

step is endogenous it’s endo as Bruce

Damer who’s an amazing mind would say

and I’ve interviewed him and it’s like

it’s the ability to indulge in ously

achieve the estate someone because

nature’s built it in we have you know

multitude of tryptamines we have NN DMT

we have five meo DMT in our you know our

wetware in our you know in our bodies

and our brains we Nature has threaded

the neurotransmitter of DMT in us

in the plans in many of her species who

are sent into to a level to connect us

with the ability to be conscious you

know and so I believe that all of this

is just a stepping stone in history to

regain basically five by galactic

Godhead consciousness as divine beings

and to be to know our place not in the

web of life and to be stewards of the

planet and you know it’s I suspect it’s

not going to be what we think it is you

know it’s not it might not even be us in

the starring role it’s like it’s us as a

bridge to what’s coming next and I think

that the the psychedelic journey is now

evolving into the entheogenic journey

and I really do suspect the antigenic

journey will evolve over the next

generation into the endogenous journey

of our ability to connect to what we

really are which is you know the planet

wearing us as the skin you know it’s

really amazing man that you that you

touch on on these these subjects i just

think i agree with you completely that

this transcendental knowledge is kind of

we’re removing and as we deviate from

the materialism and and this possessive

quality that humans have and we shed off

these sort of layers and we pick up this

understanding that you know perhaps

wealth is the acquisition of information

and our own personal evolution that

perhaps these ideas will be less of a

countercultural movement and more of a

normal thing well this is interesting

theme because I was Curry’s now so hip

and trendy with you know all the the

yogi community not just of california

and north america but it’s it’s the

people who are already engaging with

healthy lifestyle diets yoga meditation

who are now embracing specifically

ayahuasca as a medicine and so this

merging of the modalities is already

well underway and you know it’s just

helping go deeper to discover what the

potentials are and to further further

our abilities you know it seems like the

scariest part of ayahuasca visionary

state is that the medicine is actually

it really is healing you on a physical

emotional spiritual even sexual level

and then you kind of have to come to

terms that there really isn’t anything

more frightening than you have to

take responsibility for the world around

you because now that you’re healing

yourself physically and now you have

this vision of what you’re led here to

do one earth and like holy I can

fully realize this vision and nature can

even help conspire to help me actualize

this there’s something almost innately

horrifying about that well that’s taking

responsibility is the mark of an adult

and then that’s the thing you know and

basically different commentators and

said over the years that basically the

20th century and maybe the psychedelics

perience seems to be this initiation of

teenage years of sort of puberty and

going through this this change from the

child consciousness and you can look at

even things like Tim Leary’s you know

eight circuits of neuro genetic

evolution he sort of map that out in and

tried to give a framework to it as well

that we go from a larval stage to a post

larval stage and you know whatever

language you give it you can see that

there is a journey happening and

evolution has stages and steps and you

know to be opening up the the energetic

realms that psychedelics and antigens

have done is a changing consciousness

which is perhaps that that change from

child to teenager and now we seem to be

developing from teenager to adulthood

and being an adult means taking

responsibility you know for yourself for

your health for your well-being for your

family for your tribe for your planet

you know to know what you’re really and

it it’s hard it’s hard at times I mean

it’s often hard you know because it’s

relentless its ongoing its life but you

know if we know what we are embedded

within we have a greater capacity to to

go with that rhythm to go with the

energies of that and not be against the

flow which is what you know

traditionally Western culture for last

few thousand years has been it’s been

you know not plugged into the right flow

of what I guess you know the dream

spellers in my own indigenous kaja call

a synchronous time if you go with the

flow of energies of the way the planets

rolling then it’s a lot easier it’s like

it’s like a sail boat catching a win you

know you get to go a lot faster and you

supported in that but yeah I feel that I

mean I I do know what screw retreats

every every three months in Peru and it

is a beautiful amazing healing cleansing

experience and I’m getting more and more


you know myself doing long 10-day

retreats as well and working with people

and facilitating and then you know i get

back to aikido so i get back to

australian is like do I have that cup of

coffee do I go back to my lifestyle

choices do I do this have I picked up

the yoga have I locked in all the things

that I’ve felt and I’ve realized I

really need to be doing and I haven’t

quite yet you know here and there I do

bits because the same stresses are there

in our lives so number one I think you

know the value of the medicines is great

because it cleans us out it heals us but

it is asking us to take responsibility

to make changes and to make changes that

are going to serve us as human beings

and as spiritual beings having a human

experience and you know as we come

together as a community of a shamanic

community or anything Jenny community or

people who have had these experiences

and we hang around each other and

support each other and eventually that

whole 60s idea of going back to the land

and the tribe and having your own little

you know community that you live with

and support each other that’s where the

the reflection and the support of the

the other and the tribe is really

important because when you have other

people around you who understand and are

on the same spiritual path then you can

support each other in the choices you

make and in you know holding that

vibration and that energy rock you know

tech McKenna had this idea about time

we’ve 0 and a novelty theory and this

26,000 year orbit and this galactic

center and you’ve talked about it a bit

as well I’m just wondering what your

opinion of 2012 was and what you think

where are we now like what do you notice

is happening with the planet and

information now well you know I mean

again it’s like it’s like what’s

happening with ayahuasca 2012 became a

brand it became a brand that became a

huge Hollywood disaster movie you know

became a danica Pinchbeck book it became

commodified indie tones but you know the

what the Westerners understood about

2012 wasn’t at all what the indigenous

miners called it to them it was zero

point zero point zero point zero point

zero on their wheel of time and all that

Mendez of the clock takes over and then

it starts again in a new a new age

and you know we are basically living in

larger geological tracts of time on the

edge of the next ice age and if the

other area I would really point people

toward to research is basically you know

a lot of climate scientists reputable

people scientist who are being silenced

by different facets of the industry

developing around this but everyone is

saying that in that field is saying yeah

we are on that the the castle we’re

going through the process of moving into

the next ice age this is right on the

the time so we’re living through this

meant to happen we’re seeing the

build-up of of things happening in the

world which is like a buildup of energy

which will then dissipate and then

result in the Ice Age but anyway these

are the world ages you know these are

the way that things shift and things

turn and so what was your question again

I was just asking about 2012 fifth time

we’ve 50 basically the 2012 thing is the

mines understood little slightly time

and there are different world ages and

there are different energies of those

different world ages and the things

start again so potentially because we’re

coming up to great transformations

physically in the world the whole idea

of disaster which was glorified by

Hollywood is potentially still true but

it’s not about focusing on that because

this is language because underneath that

its transformation that is the key word

the planet as a macro organism is

growing and evolving if you want if you

look at the electric universe theory or

look at the idea of Pangaea you know

when we’re a supercontinent hundreds of

millions of years ago the shape of the

earth years itself is an organism has

been growing as a sphere and expanding

outwards and that’s why the continents

have broken in the position and shapes

are in because the earth is actually

growing you know like it’s like this

fear that’s expanding and so

transformation is constant in larger in

larger tracts of time and indigenous

cultures all over the planet have left

us world word maps in their mythology’s

pointing towards the fact that this

happens regularly you know yet sure the

transformation made me seem to be

destruction but you know in the same way

that a forest fire may sweep through

the bush it will germinate certain seeds

into being that rely on that intensity

fire will kill off a certain amount of

trees whatever but then the next species

will come through this is Nature’s Way

and so again we are so hooked on to

human anthro more facism and this idea

of us is that the dominant species and

us as the the conquerors of the earth

and and that we’re what it’s about and

not just us but our physicality now

being so the antigens are also helping

us get over ourselves of the fact that

we are a spirit you know we are a spirit

being that we’ve had brief tastes of

leaving this body and traversing into

the interdimensional ecology of energy

and we understand you know to some

degree that it is possible and it’s out

there and it’s happening and so we’re

getting tasters to go don’t don’t fixate

on the body so the physicality of the

planet you know it’s it’s it’s physical

mass and it all its its its

manifestation is just the vehicle to

contain the Spirit and so when we’re

going through the sixth great species

extinction they tell us which in itself

tells us has been five before it’s okay

it happens right so don’t fixate on it

if you have an appreciation of spirit

and of the journey in the beauty of the

journey um you give yourself up give

yourself up when its time because the

physical form will fall away and then

the spiritual energetic goes back into

the great pool becoming which then is

reformatted into the next thing it’s

like we’re just got to get over

ourselves Rock I noticed that um there’s

a there’s a heavy use of imagery and

mental focusing devices that a lot of

the shamans use down south america and

it kind of they say that allows them to

seek and find certain information when

they’re surfing the cosmic internet so

to speak do you find it useful to set

clear parameters or coordinates when we

are to you know kind of structure this

limitless realm of alternate realities

in that space well yeah it is a depends

what your intent is you know when I work

on a retreat facilitating with people we

do a few workshops on sitting in tents

and what the value with that is

to help people then you know focus on

that in their journeys we also work on

different skills that people can develop

into helping them navigate altered

states especially if people get stuck in

negative States or in trauma or in some

state which they perceive as negative

there can be experienced in there that

can be valuing that but if it’s going on

all the time you want to be able to

change the channel so there’s different

sort of NLP type of techniques and

different sort of anchors that you can

create for yourself by thinking of

certain things which break state and put

you into a different frame of reference

there’s also breathing techniques you

know their arm would risen different you

know things you can do to help help you

potentiate your experience and you know

it is quite limitless that that inner

inner space terrain that terra incognita

and so I think that yet to not be just

the babies flailing around in

hyperspatial kindergarten we need to be

able to learn to crawl and then to walk

and then to fly or runny no we need to

be able to if this is a thing if we are

if we see both the earth as a macro

organism and our human bodies as a

microorganism as vessels for containing

spirit and it’s like baking a cake

eventually you’re going to take it out

of the oven and you know it’s like so

this is a stage we’re going through

potentially to then join the

interdimensional ecology where the real

action is happening right and so if

we’re training and learning on that same

metaphor of you know crawling and

walking and running or whatever

eventually imagine imagine if you’re if

if we have if every human is basically a

shaman or what we now call a shaman in

the ability to traverse the world to

engage with the larger reservoir of

intelligence and or beings that are just

behind the curtain there and have been

waiting for us just to evolve to the

point of consciousness to recognize that

they’re there and so all these training

wheels is like yeah let’s sharpen our

blades let’s sharpen our ability let’s

take on the responsibility as adults and

as entheogenic beings to engage with

what is really there what the web of

life is and how far extends

into the the inner space ecology it

truly phenomenal information man hand

and there’s it’s a lot to really take in

and I just want to give you the chance

is there anything that you want to get

out well I’ve been working on my own

personal feedback loops of late so I’ll

just put a bit of a few plugs in here

that I’m rebuilding rockrose am calm and

I’m going to be offering a subscription

model to subscribers so they get like

fresh content every week a lot of audio

talks and chats and I do a monthly

podcast in a perfect world myself

talking to other notables within the

consciousness and shamanic sort of

fields but I also i’m also regularly

traveling the world and meeting up with

people all the time and they’re really

great conversations and out their stuff

and the the gold is often not not put

out publicly so i’m going to be offering

that as a subscription model to help

support me to continue doing the work of

getting good information out there in

creating media artifacts like the I

awakenings film the I awakenings film is

going to be screening in San Francisco

and Oakland on April 13 I’m going to be

in the States passing through on the way

my next retreat and yeah I’m really

starting to work as well with some of

the west coast san francisco-based

neuroscience I put this new word i call

it neuro shamanism it’s basically using

a lot of the technologies of you know

the virtual type of technologies and the

EEG machines and like the emotive

devices and all that sort of hard

technology capabilities to then look at

ulta mistakes and to look at the

shamanic sort of paradigm and to try to

get more data and not just in a clinical

way we want to be able to satisfy

scientific inquiry but we also want to

be as saying before be able to improve

our ability to go into these states and

i think the blend between neuroscience

and shamanism is a sort of the next step

and that’s sort of where i’m headed so

i’ll be doing a public discussion about

that on April so Dean and Oakland

can check out that they’ll be announced

pretty soon and just maybe people could

check out the film or awakenings calm

that’s out there and yeah I enjoy doing

these discussions and it’s really

interesting because the global community

is growing there is as we said with

ayahuasca there is potentially literally

millions of new people who at least

heard about ayahuasca they’ve even like

two percent of those actually start to

work with entheogens where we’re

basically going to be probably doubling

what is the existing entheogenic

shamanic psychedelic community and it is

growing and it’s not even maybe as a

parent you notice so I really encourage

everyone to watch out to people around

them to support other people who are

coming into these fields and these

modalities and to keep doing the good

work yeah rock I’ve only known you for

about 90 minutes but I think I love you

mrs. is phenomenal it thank you so much

for being here rock this is the human

experience dr. G you got anything else

for our guest min Drott can’t thank you

enough man that was it that was a true

pleasure there’s a blizzy guy let’s do

it again so we heard here guys is the

human experience we’re going to get out

of here bend reality back and get back

to our bodies thank you so much for

listening and ER

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