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[Music]ladies and gentlemen welcome thank you
so much for your presence this evening
we’ve got an outstanding show planned
for you guys this is our first episode
of 2020 the year is 2020 one more
revolution around the Sun another attack
a new decade of human civilization
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we are in the live discussion channel we
are gonna be diving into the realm of
the polymath tonight unlocking hidden
human potential I mean it’s gonna be
phenomenal so whether you’re here with
us live right now or if you’re listening
to the podcast version of this thank you
so much for your presence it sincerely
appreciated either way
sit back grab a drink enjoy this
conversation the human experience is in
session my name is Xavier katana my
guest for today is mr. raucous ahmed’s
he is a world authority on
multidisciplinary thinking he is an
author scientist and journalist ruckus
has degrees in the history of
international relations and economics he
was appointed as chair of the
Commonwealth global citizenship
educational education panel walk us is
the founder of the da vinci network a
global movement that wants to achieve
the many cited potentials of humans
worldwide
he’s the artistic director at the
khalili collections a diverse and
important private art collection he his
journal journalism work has seen him
occupy the position of global
correspondent at first magazine one that
saw him gain exclusive access and
interviews with various prime ministers
and presidents all across the world what
a resume Wakko’s is author of the
polymath a book in which he looks at
polymath people who have
multi-dimensional minds those that were
reject specialization in one area and
pursue multiple objectives in different
fields he looks at the rules these
people have played in history the roles
these people have played in history and
why this approach to life could be
important to us in the future what
causes work has been featured in Forbes
the Financial Times The Lancet he was
selected as Graham Hancock’s featured
author of the month wow what an amazing
resume will cost it’s such a pleasure
I’m so excited for this conversation
welcome to hxp Xavier thank you so much
for having me today I’m especially at
the beginning of the new decade where we
ought to be thinking a lot more about
human potential in general but our own
human potential in particular and that
human potential we’ve historically been
told ought to be one-dimensional but
today hopefully we’ll get into a bit
more about how and why human potential
every individual has a many-sided
potential a one that can be untapped
through a very particular system very
particular approach to life a very
particular mindset so thank you very
much for having me on this prestigious
show yes sir I mean I I really
appreciate your presence I know it’s a
bit late for you where you are in in
London I believe in the UK and you know
I let’s let’s dig in let’s this is your
first book correct yeah absolutely it’s
my first book it took about five years
ten thousand hours of research and a lot
of interviewing a lot of traveling
around the world it didn’t begin as a
book it began as a series of notes
actually personal notes a personal
intellectual journey which came as a
result of a lot of a lot of hours at
35,000 feet up high traveling the world
through my work some of which you’ve
described earlier on in your kind
introduction but but as a result of that
I started questioning a variety of
things related to the individual what
our potential might be what the role of
the human is in the modern world but
also systems why are certain systems and
institutions the way they currently are
and whether they ought to be that way so
that kind of intellectual exploration
that everyone I’m sure you and all of
your listeners are going on or have been
on it’s the same thing with me it’s just
in my case it
my notes down wrote my thoughts down and
thankfully it came together ultimately
in the form of a book and was published
by Wiley earlier this year yeah I mean
congratulations and yes that is the
essence of everything that we do on the
show is explore that that untapped human
potential I think that is you know I
have the tenant of everything we do here
so you know I almost think I made a joke
about this before in the in the pre
conversation before we started and I I
said you know are you up are you a
polymath you know but let’s what what is
a polymath well a polymath um is has is
a concept and a word that’s been thrown
around rather loosely over the past
decades and even centuries and it’s
means different things to different
people but in general it’s always meant
somebody who has had a lot and are
diverse kinds of knowledge and has often
used that knowledge for some creative
outcome so it could mean an individual
who’s excelled in many different fields
it could mean an individual who’s rather
encyclopedic in their knowledge and
doesn’t just know a lot about one thing
but a lot about many things the way I
describe it however is is through its
core competency that every polymath has
and more to have and that is through the
competency of versatility the ability to
to move seamlessly between different
fields and disciplines and the way that
usually manifests is that individual as
a result excelling at various seemingly
unrelated fields and I say seemingly
because if you speak to a polymath they
will often see connections between those
fields and I’m sure we’ll talk about
that in due course but but to to the
onlooker and to the so called specialist
or
to the modern thinker who’s trained to
think about accomplishment in a
one-dimensional way that you ought to be
a specialist at the expense of every
other field it was these fields might
seem
sprut or different but to the polymath
they are very much connected so yeah
that’s the way I describe it is a
versatile and exceptionally versatile
individual who as a result excels in
multiple seemingly unrelated fields hmm
okay I mean the cover of the book which
people can see now you know it’s it’s it
features da Vinci and da Vinci seems to
be the core sort of tenant of tenant of
what you know you sort of surround your
your research by you’ve mounted the da
Vinci network so you know why da Vinci
well the Vinci’s is the given what I’ve
explained by way of definition of a
polymath just now Leonardo da Vinci is
the archetype of the polymath at least
in the Western mind and because we know
we’ve taught since school and most at
least European and American educational
establishments that Leonardo da Vinci
was not only an exceptional visual
artist painter but he was also an
exceptional engineer who would invent
various things he was a mechanical
engineer he was an architect to some
extent he was a scientist an anatomist
to some extent but there are many other
sighs – Leonardo da Vinci that if you go
deeper you go into the man he’s one of
the few men or humans in in history I
think that actually are very much live
up to the hype that they’re given at at
conventional schools and universities
because he he was he made significant
contributions he didn’t just explore for
the sake of exploring but at least from
the benefit of hindsight now we know
that many of his explorations were
groundbreaking and whether or not they
they came to fruition during his
lifetime is another matter but we know
that his thinking was about beyond
anything else during his lifetime at
least and the result I argue throughout
the book the result is the fact that he
had a multi-dimensional mind he was able
to look at each concept phenomenon field
individual
as as part of a system so it’s a part of
a system meaning that he was somewhat of
a systems thinker which again we’ll go
into in a bit more detail but he was he
was now systems thinking has become
quite popular in various fields and
various spheres of life but he was
probably the original systems thinker at
least in Western history because if you
look at his notebooks for example of
which there are many and they’re
scattered through various collections
around the world if you look at his
notebooks they cover a variety of things
written and as well and drawn as well
and those things range from botanical
studies to anatomical studies to
zoological studies to mechanical
engineering designs to architectural
designs and and and so on and so forth
many of these sketches did inform his
paintings of which there weren’t many
actually but but the fact is that when
an any individual today were to look at
this vast corpus of of work in its
entirety they would look at it and they
would look they would see a seemingly
sporadic approach to exploration where
on one page for instance he will he will
talk about or he will either write about
or he will draw the motion of waves and
the movement of water and he would
explore that and you’d look at things
like thermodynamics on the next page and
then he’d look at actually how hair
falls on Iran a woman as opposed to a
man on the next page and so on and so
forth so one one thing if you look at it
from a systemic approach one thing or
one phenomenon often draws him to the
attention of another and so on and so
forth so he actually thought in a very
systematic manner as opposed to a
sporadic manner this is why he’s highly
interesting study as he’s a highly
interesting case study as a polymath and
which is why he inspired me from a very
young age because as growing up
at least in in in the UK education
system and I know it’s it’s very similar
in the US and indeed in many parts of
the world where you have a
specialization system where you you
start off rather broad and then you
narrow in as you get older and so if you
have multiple passions which most
children do it’s natural because as
human beings were multifaceted
individuals we really have we’re debt we
are bound to have multiple passions we
then are taught or encouraged or even
forced and compelled to to narrow this
down and to compromise our many
interests and talents and ideas at the
expense of ultimately one which is what
we’re applying to university for right
we apply for one degree and in the u.s.
at least you have a liberal arts degree
which is rather broad but here in the UK
and in many other parts of the world
it’s often a highly specialized degree
so you’re supposed to know your
specialized vocation when you’re 16 or
17 years old which is rather absurd
so that is that that is the kind of
education educational background I came
from so when I saw historical figures
like Leonardo da Vinci excelling in so
many other fields in addition to the
artwork that we know him for now that I
found that highly inspiring and ever
since then it’s the concept of the
polymath has been rather intriguing for
me so now when you look at the book over
these five years I’ve explored examples
of such individuals male and female from
different type of different parts of the
world as well as from different periods
in human history and I realized that
actually there are many Leonardo’s
scattered around history scattered
around the world the deeply look the
more you find them and Leonardo is
definitely still up there as one of the
greats but as you may have seen with the
book there are many many other examples
yeah it’s amazing I mean I I’ve never
told anyone this but you know I think
about Leonardo da Vinci quite a lot you
know I’ll be it’s really random and it’s
it’s it’s weird I guess but you know I
think about the way he connected to
the discoveries that he made and I think
about his relationship to our society
today and how he would probably in
clinical regards be diagnosed as ADHD
and you know prescribed some medication
and we would you know be erased from you
know humans and so you touched on my
next question you know how common is
this how you know how spread out are I
mean are there polymaths
in the world that don’t really realize
that they’re there polymaths in there
you know because of the mainstream
because of the way our system is set up
that yeah you know we’re forced into you
must study this you must pick this as a
career you must do this you know and
maybe they’re misdiagnosed yep and my
premise of the book actually is that
everyone originally was and therefore
has the potential to be a polymath so
what I mean by that is that as I
mentioned earlier on originally
everybody is a multi-faceted human being
we all have different dimensions to us
whether neurologically biologically
psychologically emotionally I mean we
have an intellectual side a physical
side a spiritual side and all the rest
so how then so if we’re born into this
world and we’re on this adventure which
is called life why then should we
constrain ourselves for the majority of
our lives doing one particular highly
specialized thing at the expense of
everything else that there is to
discover and I’m sure use it relates to
this given how the diversity of Spira of
of interviewees you’ve had on your
program I mean look at the world that’s
out there look at the ideas that there
are to explore to to develop further to
assimilate in one’s own life look that’s
just in terms of ideas look at places
there are look at the cultures there are
look at the languages there are and so
on and so forth so when you’ve got this
individual that’s inherently
multifaceted entering into a world that
is inherently diverse then enforcing
specialization and especially long life
long specialization on that individual
is not
counterintuitive but it’s also
counterproductive for the individual and
for society and so that said there are
polymaths there are individuals that
stay true to that parameter amor
yourself and continue continue on that
multi-dimensional journey even if it’s
going against the grain that is the
modern educational system and the modern
workplace and I’ve I’ve been trying to
dig them out through my research and
it’s been difficult because actually
there are many latent polymaths who who
kind of lived this life or have this
approach but are often not afraid but
reluctant to kind of wear that on their
sleeve so to speak because it’s not seen
favorably by many people right so you
have um let’s just say you had a you had
a job as I don’t know a banker or a taxi
driver or as a janitor or whatever it
might be whatever your job might be and
that job then actually serves to
ultimately define you as an individual
it’s an unfair an unfortunate reality of
human social affairs once you have once
you go through that system of of kind of
finding your place your profession
becomes your identity and then you
psychologically it seems that you ought
not to play with that identity you walk
to roll with it so to speak and so when
you when you try something different or
you do something or you engage in a
different project or or change your line
of work that is often seen reluctantly
skeptically sometimes cynically by your
peers by those around you because
they’re not used to doing that it’s not
the norm for them so that when they look
at you doing that they’ll look sometimes
deriving Lee at you for kind of
spreading yourself too thin or doing
something you don’t know much about and
and so on so this this kind of
exploration of another field or of
multiple fields is not
something that is encouraged so with
that in mind going back to your question
when individuals attend my talks or have
read my book I’ve had a lot of people
get in touch with me and say oh come and
speak to me after a talk and say hey man
thank you so much
finally I can come out and I say okay
nothing out really and he said and they
say yeah I mean we never knew what we
were we always lived this kind of life
or had this approach or had this desire
to live life in a particular way we were
always inclined a particular way but
we’d never had the validation we’ve
always had been been met with cynicism
or skepticism and so so for me I’m glad
to have after having written a book and
spoken at various places I’m glad that
actually people are coming forward and
saying you know what this is not only
something to be you know something to
keep on the side just to fulfill your
own personal fantasy no this is
something that actually has a tremendous
value to society and so we ought to wear
this pride proudly and so one of the
that’s reason that one of the main
thesis of the book actually you you you
may have noticed that the actually about
a third of the book focuses on history
and the reason that’s the case is that
it is to show and giving various
examples from different points in
history and different cultures is to
show that actually polymaths have been
the most influential individuals in
human history
question-it apologized to pause you I
mean you’re like a segue artist as well
you know so okay okay so let’s let’s
talk about that let’s talk about how
Homo sapiens in history because this is
as you said this is a big part of of the
book and what you cover and you know you
talk about you talk about how polymaths
were
quite essential in regards to the
survival of the human species and I find
this absolutely fascinating so please
please continue yeah this is this is um
this is one of them this is the the big
bold thesis of the book if there was one
and that is that if we knew if today in
this special highly hyper specialized
world if we knew that polymaths were the
most influential actors in human history
would we foster the production or the
encouragement of polymaths in our
education system and through our
workplaces or would we continue to sort
it as we currently do right so this is
why it’s very important to understand
that throughout human history those that
we would now call polymaths have had the
greatest influence in different spheres
of life so let’s take for example in the
sciences so insight in the history of
science or even in the history of
philosophy if you look at the main
thinkers that you would conventionally
regard as those that have made major
contributions I have transformed our
understanding of that particular science
or of science and philosophy in general
you would if you dig deeper into their
lives you will realize that they had
tremendously diverse backgrounds
intellectually professionally culturally
and so on and many of them you might say
if it was an exceptional case you might
think it’s an exception but from my
research it seems to be the rule that
those people like for example Nicholas
Copernicus we now all know about his
transformational heliocentric theory in
astronomy now if we’re if we are to look
at it from the perspective of a 21st
century scientific or academic
perspective then we would assume that
Copernicus would have spent a tremendous
amount of time in the lab focusing on
mathematics
perhaps physics astrophysics or
cosmology and would have focused on that
for the majority of his life before
ultimately coming to his big grand
breakthrough the the reality is almost
the exact opposite the reality is that
he actually had an incredibly diverse
background prior to to making that
breakthrough in astronomy he many people
don’t know this but he had a background
in economics he was also an artist he
had a background in the law as well he
had a background in poetry as well and
actually a variety of other things
before he went on to focus his efforts
on understanding cosmology and therefore
making his grand breakthrough that’s
just one example but there are many many
others and actually going it’s a good
idea to lead on from that here’s a more
recent study done I say recent but it
was kind of Jura it was a study done of
Nobel prize-winning scientists okay that
was done over the over the past covering
the past century of the 20th century and
looking at actually again looking at
this assumption as to whether Nobel
prize-winning scientists those those
whom we would assume to be ultra
specialists in their field and assumed
to be eating sleeping drinking their
micro specialism were actually the
opposite the vast majority of them in
fact I think nearly all of them are
known to have at least one unrelated
hobby a variety of them most of them had
that hobby in the in the arts as opposed
to the sciences some of them had those
hobbies in or a vacations in the
humanities the majority of them were
much more likely to so for example they
were 25 times as likely as the average
scientist to sing dance or act 17 times
as likely to be a visual artist 12 times
more likely to write poetry and
literature eight times more likely to do
a woodworking or some other craft four
times more likely to be a musician and
twice as likely to be a
so imagine imagine that a company
completely throws the assumptions on
their head that that specialists that
were those that we consider to be
specialists the most influential
scientists in human history or at least
in recent human history are actually
more Polymathic than than ultra
specialists so it’s this these examples
that I find fascinating and the this is
just within the sciences if you look in
the history of leadership for example
whether the leadership be in business or
in politics we’ll look at some of the
great leaders or at least those I mean
it’s great is a rather subjective thing
isn’t it but at least those that are
considered in conventional terms to be
great leaders in in in in the likes of
business or politics
I mean Winston Churchill is universally
acclaimed at least here and I shouldn’t
say universally acclaimed but widely
acclaimed here at least in the UK and
also worldwide to be one of the great
leaders of the 20th century he he
actually started off as a journalist as
a soldier and then went on to be a
historian and then when he was even put
even when he became prime minister of
the United Kingdom he had a hobby of
watercolour painting and became highly
accomplished and actually a lot of
critics really lauded his his work as a
painter and so interesting thing is that
he he was constantly in pursuit of
diverse interests whether it be crafts
skills or knowledge his mantra was
always diversity that’s one example from
British history
there are many from all over the world
you have Akbar the Great in in Mughal
India and you have Suleiman the
Magnificent in Ottoman Turkey you have
and and so on and so forth and that’s
leadership in politics and you have
leadership in business Mormont
like let’s look at I think this would be
of great interest species especially so
that
graphic of listeners here today is
actually if you look at leadership in
business today and you look at some of
the greatest entrepreneurs and business
leaders that we all are inspired by or
that many at least those in in in the
world of business are inspired by the
most accomplished ie those at the top
those that are moving and shaking the
likes of the Branson’s or the Elon
Musk’s or previously Steve Jobs and and
so on if you look at Jeff Bezos all of
these individual Bill Gates
let’s let’s think about what what is
their mindset number one number two what
is the history of their professional
career if we look at if we look at these
two things what we will find with all of
the examples I’ve given and Beyond is
will find that many of these actually
had diversity as their approach because
they they realize that diversity was the
optimal path to creativity and so they I
mean like for example you know Bill
Gates Bill Gates now he always had very
diverse interest but now his reading
Club as you know his book club is is is
very very popular he likes to read far
and wide he always he always promotes
the need for lifelong learning at all
times Richard Branson very diverse not
only his business interests I think he
has about 200 business interests who
which are incredibly diverse in
different sectors some of which he plays
less overall some of which he plays more
rural but he has an individual is also
very a serial hobbyist as we know he’s
even broken records in in in golf and in
air ballooning and so many other things
and then you have you know Steve Jobs
previously who-who we know attributed
his breakthrough in business to his
combined interests in InDesign
in calligraphy in in in promotion and
marketing in science so he combined many
of these different facets of his
interests into creating a break
and there are many many other examples
Elon Musk we know he had his in business
interests well most of which been
successful have all been in markedly
different fields and again if you speak
to him I mean you should watch
interviews with these with these
individuals they they are I mean we’ll
give another example of a wealthy
entrepreneur Oprah Winfrey she has
credibly I’m we must give female
examples because it’s incredibly
important she has an incredibly diverse
background in in acting and directing in
in various forms of business in social
entrepreneurship and so on and so forth
so what I’m trying to say I guess is
that the real movers and shakers in
science and our we haven’t touched on
art but we can do but in science in art
in leadership business politics
humanitarianism or all spheres of life
if you look at the real top the 1% the
2% and this is something even Tim
Ferriss when I spoke with him affirmed
as you know he’s interviewed some of the
leaders in all kinds of fields true and
he affirms exactly the same thing that
actually if you look at the one or two
percent whatever field it might be as we
said those one or two percent have
incredibly diverse backgrounds and they
have a multi-dimensional approach to
their so-called specialism which is
allowed for that breakthrough so that
this is something that’s kind of this is
a thread that that goes through the
entire book Wow Wow you know I’m I’m
feeding off of this I love this so much
because you know I I study these
individuals you know I’ve bought their
biographies and I mean I want to sort of
dissect you know how they’re doing what
they’re doing I want to learn as much as
I can from them I connect with that and
you know that that old maxim that we
hear we heard growing up at least in
America you know jack of all trades
master of none you know stuff like that
it just it just sort of it makes me
uncomfortable you know and but there’s
you there’s someone that in your book
that you you mentioned and I mean I find
the story incredibly intriguing it’s
Imhotep
and apparently Imhotep was just a
commoner right and he he gained he
gained he somehow gained the the Kings
attention how did how did this happen
that’s right that’s right I mean it
motive is a fantastic example to be
sharing here on this platform because he
is the what you might regard as the
earliest known polymath or earliest
recorded polymath I’m just because we
know a lot or relatively quite a lot
about him given the fact that he was
from 20 27th century BC which is a long
time ago and we have limited records
then but um but he’s a great example of
a polymath because he’s actually
excelled in multiple fields during his
time as you as you correctly said he
rose from being a commoner which is very
highly uncommon during that time in
veronik Egypt where you had a highly
elitist class or even caste which held
on to power in many regards but there
were there was some form of a very
limited meritocracy in and and this
allowed someone like Imhotep who started
off really as a kind of an architect and
a physician to really excel and gave him
the platform to do so so when he he
started off as a physician and he many
many say before that he was a kind of
Aristotelian sort of learn a lifelong
learner
rigorous learner who just wanted to
learn about absolutely everything and he
ultimately became a physician a highly
acclaimed and renowned physician at the
time caught the attention of King Djoser
at the time there is some dispute about
the history of this so I don’t want to
go into too much detail about that but
the long and short of it is that after
gaining that attention this gave him
access to a lot of resource material a
lot of knowledge at the time which he
then he didn’t use that knowledge to
think okay what can I now specialize in
he use that knowledge to say all right
so
maybe I can contribute to this that and
that so what he did was he was
interested in in in spirituality so he
became a high priest he he went we are
he underwent the training and and then
went under went and led various
ritualistic ceremonies at the time he
was interested in philosophy so he
learnt a lot about the philosophy of his
forefathers and then developed a kind of
thinking of his own he was also very
interested in cosmology and architecture
and back then as you may know speaking
with Graham and the likes architecture
and cosmology was pretty much seen as
one field because you had two celestial
guidance guidance was incredibly
important for the geometry when it came
to when it came to architectural design
so if you we know a lot about the
pyramids the grand the grand pyramids
arm or the grand pyramid of giza for
instance but not far from there you have
the pyramids the Step Pyramid at Saqqara
and those step pyramids are known to
have been designed by Imhotep himself
Wow and so so and then he also wrote a
lot of poetry he became and because of
this kind of multifarious accomplishment
at that time by a commoner he always
almost considered a sort of demigod at
the time how could somebody of human
form accomplish so much coming from his
background so he is not only the first
recorded polymath that we know of
he’s also and we must remember this he
was from the African continent and that
should inspire many and I should provoke
a lot of thought in a world today where
we we live where I’m we often derived
the accomplishments or the history of of
Africa in general so the first recorded
polymath was actually an African Wow I
mean there’s so much to unpack there I
don’t even know where to start there’s
so much that I want to ask you that I
have to reduce down into one question
right so I mean you know it’s it’s
amazing that it seems like
you know history could have bypassed so
many people and in current times even
you know we could be bypassing so many
people by you know this this sort of
regard that we have towards learning and
understanding things and the way Big
Pharma is you know for example you
mentioned this a bit earlier and I do
want to bring this back up do you I mean
do you see it as a genetic thing
I mean is there you know maybe a
chromosome or something I mean do you
see it split between men and and women
equally how does that work good question
I think I think they’re owed just like
any other attribute cognitive attribute
a personality attribute and an ability
it there’s got to be a genetic component
to it so the idea of exceptional
versatility there is a genetic component
to it so for example there is there are
genetic factors involved in personality
and personalities along a big driver of
of Palama the– right so for example we
know from from cognitive science and
psychology that you have the big five
sort of personality traits one of them
or at least one of them it seems to be
highly correlated with the idea of the
polymath or the personality of the
polymath that one is openness now
openness is a kind of personality trait
that that means that you’re open to new
ideas new phenomena new new experiences
new people and new concepts and so on
and so forth so there are people that
are genetically predisposed I suppose to
be more open but we also know that with
as with almost all personality traits
there’s probably a 0.4 variance so our
40% influence of genetic factors which
means that there’s a 60% influence of
environmental
this and that is a general rule when it
comes to a certain general rule when it
comes to personality and that sort of
genetic versus environmental influence
proportion or ratio is is is different
for different abilities as well and
different cognitive abilities but by and
large by and large we must accept that
there is a genetic component however the
most in most cases the environmental
factors play the predominant role so
nurturing a particular personality trait
or a particular ability is highly
possible in each case so going back to
the idea of the polymath as I said
before everyone everyone I believe
everyone is predisposed to be Polymathic
now whether or not you Altima be or
display yourself as a polymath or
demonstrate yourself as a polymer is
determined by whether the environment
around you allows that so whether the
schooling system the economic system and
the the work system the employment
system encourages that or whether it
suppresses that and the suppressing of
that might be systemic and inadvertent
or it might be very highly purposeful so
for example in in the past we know that
we know the that power distribution in
society has been unequal for most if not
all of human history and that unequal
nurse
was more at some times than others but
it’s always been there so when you have
an unequal when you have power that’s
been monopolized or centralized amongst
a certain class or group of people
what’s often been the case is that
knowledge itself has often been confined
as opposed to shared and that knowledge
is often not been used to nurture the
masses so we know that there are various
reasons for this but basically going
back to your question
as to whether whether there is whether
it’s an eight or whether it can be I
think to a large large degree this is
something that can definitely be
nurtured everyone has the potential to
be a polymer I mean think about it
you the definition I give or the
criteria I give is that you need to
excel in at least three seemingly
unrelated fields now I’m sure if you ask
any child going back to primary school
if you ask every child what things
they’re interested in what you know what
intrigues them what interests them or
even if you look at the things that
they’re good at if you expose them to
various things they’re bound to be good
at multiple things it’s just that we
don’t expose them to multiple things
neither do we encourage them to pursue
multiple things going forward so I think
there’s a huge amount of untapped
potential here which which if if allowed
to to flourish could really lead to
tremendous results that are just
completely inconceivable for the modern
mind yeah I mean you know there’s
there’s so much to think about when we
think about you know where society could
be you know with figures such as Nikola
Tesla I’m sure many people that are
listening to the show understand know
his significance in history and Wow how
much you know what we understand as the
modern world would have changed if he
was allowed to continue continue doing
what he was doing but yeah which leads
me into sort of my next question which
is you call financially doomed polymath
I love this so you know okay so how what
it’s it seems like there is an aspect of
cultural baggage you know there is a
judgment that is happening when you know
someone is demonstrates this you know
versatility in injuries across you know
different spectrums and so you know why
why do you think that you know a
polymath would be financially doomed as
as you put it
well the idea is that the polymath that
that is the assumption there’s a
societal assumption that the polymath is
or is bound to be financially doomed I
of course throughout the book challenge
that that assumption because going back
to what you said earlier on this this
very well-known phrase of jack of all
trades master of none which actually has
many other variations in different
languages across the world it’s that I
mean that this idea of hey you’re if
you’re um if you’re doing many things
your frivolous your um you’re kind of
diluting your interest you’re not paying
attention you’re not focusing right and
therefore you’re not being productive
this idea and if you’re not productive
then you’re not going to be financially
secure so this this whole idea is very
common in different societies and it’s
become common because of the rise of
specialization as a culture at least
over the past century and a half to two
centuries at least in Western history
and that’s because it’s a myth
ultimately that’s been propagated by by
industrial capitalism as a system
because if you think about industrial
capitalism as a system at least
initially what happened was it relied on
a particular mode of productivity which
which treated human beings as cogs in a
machine as we know we often use that
term now but that literally used to be
the case at least in factories and in
many cases is still the case in many
modern corporations but the human beings
are treated as cogs that oats who just
focus on doing one thing and that one
thing is their financial security that
one thing is their identity that one
thing is something that should should
should should should not encourage them
to look beyond so when we’re looking
when when we look at that kind of system
of division of labor which is the way it
was phrased if we look at that system by
its very nature
it’s limiting human potential because
it’s already placing a stigma on every
individual and telling them that
actually this is your function and this
is your role in society and once you’re
told that and what you’re gaining your
financial income from it the more you
progress or the more you move forward in
your career as time goes on the more you
put you’ve kept that egg all your eggs
in that one basket and the more
difficult it is for you to diversify and
to to break out of that box so that
system has been in place for a very long
time and the education system the modern
education system is also based on a
system that serves that industrial
capitalist model so initially the reason
why mass education actually came into
being at least in the West is because a
variety of individuals were needed human
beings were needed to operate like
machines and they were needed to operate
machines but also operate like machines
and the only thing they needed to learn
was how to read instruction manuals so
they were taught language and they were
taught what to do in that particular
field and they were taught nothing else
and as time went on the education system
then took on the guys or took on the
model of the factory so you have
subjects or fields as we today know them
maths English history physics and so on
and so forth
art and so on they’re all split from one
another as if there are chunks of
productive output and they they are
split from one another and taught to
students in isolation from one another
and when they’re taught an isolation
from one another that student is not
going to understand what the purpose of
that nugget of information is to their
lives but more importantly what the what
is the importance of that nugget of
knowledge to the next nugget of
knowledge that seems completely
unrelated to me so what you have is when
you have as so you have children still
going through that system of Jadhav
knowledge disparate knowledge kind of
thrown into different segments and
chunks and then thrown at them with no
context no perspective how do we expect
them to internalize this so that’s the
education system but it doesn’t that
doesn’t relate as much to your question
with your question it’s about financial
security right so with financial
security where as a result of the
education and the employment model we
are then sold this myth that hey guys
stick in your lane and don’t and yeah
otherwise you’d be a jack of all trades
master of none meanwhile you have the
most influential actors in society the
leader the entrepreneurs that are
running that Factory and the
entrepreneurs that are running factories
in multiple sectors and business leaders
that are engaged that are contributing
to many fields and scientists that
understood that this is a myth and
therefore diversified their interests
those are the individuals that 1% 2% are
the ones that are making the grand
breakthroughs where while the rest of
our rest of us are left to believe the
grand myth of the jack of all trades
master of none right so I think that’s
that’s the the grand lie that we need to
dispel yeah I mean I think I think we’re
doing that I think you know your book is
is really you know cutting the edge on
on this and you know opening this up so
that people can see you know it’s it’s
not so bad to really explore the multi
dimensions of your creativity you know
who you are
and your interests you know what
inspires you what what are you you know
really inspired by I mean there’s
there’s so many people that I encounter
all the time that tell me you know
they’re they’re stuck in their
nine-to-five jobs and their apps they’re
they have money but they’re miserable
they hate it well you know it’s oh so
you know I kind of want to I want to get
into I know that you are do it you’re
completing your graduate studies as a
neurologist in your eulogy and so you
know the I mean this is a big interest
for me
the human brain so it’s something that
I’ve been thinking about when
encountering your work is you know is it
a left brain thing is it a right brain
thing is there some sort of crosstalk
happening are the left and right
hemisphere I was working together what’s
what’s going on there in the brain with
of a polymath that is a fantastic
question actually before before I
address that and even related to that
actually is is just a point you
mentioned just before which was about
how people are feeling unfulfilled and
and that’s an important point because up
until now we’ve talked about the
importance of the polymath to society
that they’re that they’re making the big
contributions and able to do so because
of their diverse backgrounds but what we
must also be how very mindful of is the
importance of being a polymath or
pursuing polymath II to the individual
and that’s highly important because it
speaks to the idea of self-actualization
and self-actualization is something that
people that you’re speaking of when you
say that these people are making money
but they’re not feeling fulfilled it’s
because it’s because they haven’t
reached that self-actualization in the
way that Maslow actually described which
many people forget actually the way that
it wasn’t originally described is that
self-actualization is the point at which
the individual pursues and is able to be
all they can be right so not one
particular thing not one specialism no
just because you made a fantastic
contribution in the sciences or the arts
or in film or and whatever it might be
no you’re still going to remain
unfulfilled because there are many sides
to you and they all need to be expressed
in one way or another or at least many
of them need to be expressed in one way
or another so true self-actualization is
when you staying true to your prime mode
yourself which is diverse right so that
that that talks to the the initial point
you made and then going moving forward
to the neurological underpinnings of
polymath II now this is
highly interesting because there’s still
a lot of work being done in this area
for example I’ll mention just very
briefly some of the research that’s
being done I’m not sure if you had have
you had dr. Ian McGilchrist on your
program the health show before I highly
recommend it because he he wrote this
internationally acclaimed book called
the divided brain in the master and his
a misery okay and it was a few years ago
published but it’s just a phenomenal
book because he looks at how how
actually the human brain and the focus
on a particular hemisphere of the human
brain shaped society or civilization and
vice versa and how this this how this
has how this has actually caused or led
to the trajectory of hume of of at least
Western history as we know it and so
this is very interesting because he
himself is a psychiatrist and he’s
looking at it from that perspective but
he’s also he’s also highly accomplished
in the field of English literature and
other fields too so it’s not surprising
that a Polymathic mind like his would
identify such an issue and what he
identifies really is that firstly for
optimal brain performance where you can
unleash the polymath within you for
optimal brain performance you need an
effective synchronicity between the
right and left hemispheres and and that
is something we’d need to we need to
work more on trying to discover how to
attain that because it’s it’s at times
and and and and today what he argues is
that and justice justice justice
summarize and paraphrase today we we
live in a world that is has a high focus
or individuals or humans have a high
focus on left brain thinking and left
brain thinking has resulted in
phenomenal feats of technological
advance and and many other things but
what that does also is that it
left brain thinking also corresponds
with the kind of philosophical worldview
that we promote in society and therefore
what kind of systems and structures we
build in societies and right now they
seem to be highly segmented highly
reductive and with lacking real
perspective and holistic analysis and so
the the the mark of the right hemisphere
is actually exactly the opposite which
is to have a more bigger picture view of
any given situation not just the world
at large any given situation and also to
be more open-minded to be to seek
connections between different things so
if your systems thinker you’re more
likely to be more than a right
hemisphere think thinker and so on and
so forth well there is work being done
around the whole area of versatility
adaptability and interdisciplinarity
which all of which is related to the
idea of the polymath but we’re still in
very very early stages so we can’t I’m
very reluctant as somebody who has
studied neuroscience I’m very reluctant
to to make any such connections with any
great authority at this stage it’s
really truly fascinating you know it’s
been a puzzle for me as well I have been
thinking about this for a long time I’m
curious to know if you’ve if you’ve
discovered Robert Monroe’s work and
hemispheric synchronization binaural
audio binaural beats yet you know yeah
hemispheric synchronization Robert
Monroe you have so so I mean I mean
here’s here’s a guy I mean for the
people that are listening that don’t
know who he is and he he wrote a series
of books called journeys his first book
was called journeys out of the body he
discovered that he you know had this
ability I guess to project his mind
outside of his body
and he goes through this this whole
series of it’s truly remarkable because
he was able to describe this journey in
the most objective way whereas people I
think tend to color things he did he
purposefully very in a very calculated
way he did his best to remain objective
and through these journeys near the end
of the series he is given this tool like
he is contacted by this higher
intelligence and he’s given what he
patented as hemi-sync hemispheric
synchronization so i mean why don’t you
tell us what that is and and how it
works please yeah okay if you don’t mind
can you can you repeat the first part of
your first part of your question I
didn’t get that I
okay so so okay so hemi-sync is just
this this process of playing your brain
is is picking up on these tonal
vibrations in the air that that vibrate
your eardrums and it’s pulling a
frequency out of that and it turns out
if if you play you know a frequency in
one year like seven Hertz in one ear and
and another frequency like 11 Hertz your
brain will automatically take the
average of those two numbers and when it
does that
you’re the left and right brain
hemispheres in your in your head start
to communicate they start to talk to
each other so yep I mean is there any I
mean it could we harness this tool could
we could we somehow you know use this to
engineer polymaths yes and and actually
many polymaths that are engaging in
different fields so for example if there
is a one one person who’s who’s who’s
engaging in a scientific pursuit as well
as an artistic pursuit simultaneously
they will actually be able to feel these
the synchronicity that results from
these vibrations or the different Bible
admitted through different experiences
and when that when that happens it
affects the conscious as well as the
subconscious and and and something
ferments within the brain and again the
neuroscience of creativity is something
that’s being explored a lot these days
we still are very very in the infant
stages of that journey but but one thing
is for sure that when you have when you
have diversity of input and whether that
input B or frequency that results from a
particular activity or something else a
different mode of thinking a different
kind of hemispheric focus whatever that
might be that diversity will will
inevitably create something new when you
have two separate ideas phenomenas
inputs whatever all factors whatever
they might be when they when they
converge they synthesize to make
something new and that’s something new
is an act of creativity so we know that
that happens anyway how we can engineer
that how we can manufacture that is
something that that educational
institutions and research organizations
need to spend more time on Wow I mean
because we are absolutely crushing this
man everyone in the audience today is is
just loving this conversation and saying
hear me too
so you know I have to bring this up
let’s talk about drugs because you know
psychedelics are experiencing this in
re-emergence I mean there’s this you
know it seems like Silicon Valley is
picking up on micro dosing this year
more and more common you know in it’s it
seems like people are you know
harnessing the tool of that
yep what happens in those states as a
way to invent new things I mean as you
know in Albert Crick he visualizing DNA
it’s talked about you know it’s
theorized that he does micro sing or
under the influence with Steve Jobs so
it goes on and so the list goes on
absolutely so how
I mean let’s talk about that I mean
what’s your position on psychedelics and
and their you know impact on society and
and then also polymaths yeah this
actually this question is inevitable
when we talk about polymaths because
when you’re talking about polymath
you’re talking about different modes of
thinking knowing and being right when
you’re when you’re when you’re coming
when you take off your lab coat and then
you pick up the guitar you are entering
a different mode of being and it
requires different cognitive skills it
requires a different emotional
connection it requires a different kind
of thinking in general it also the
output itself is also very different so
with this in mind we have to look at
psychedelics as as we all know it’s
indisputable that you’d enter alternate
modes of consciousness with different
into different levels and in different
ways depending on what it is you’re
experiencing but but we know that
actually an alternative mode of
consciousness actually comes about and
that that alternate mode is actually
something that is either familiar or
unfamiliar it’s something that’s that’s
kind of something that’s completely new
or something that’s semi new we don’t
know but the sheer fact I think and
without knowing – or having too much
experience of my of my own what I will
say is that the fact that there is a lot
of scientific information available
about the benefits attached or or at
least the effects of psychedelic
experience on the human mind and it’s
altering impact number one and number
two the amounts of anecdotal knowledge
we have about certain individuals some
of whom you’ve named there many many
others that have attributed their
creative breakthroughs in
music arts sciences and so on to some
form of psychedelic experience the fact
that those Anik so many of those
anecdotes exist
amongst the most creative people in the
world together with the emerging science
of psychedelics means that we must take
this seriously when it comes to
cognitive enhancement and cognitive
exploration we must take it seriously
and its relation to the polymath again
the idea of the polymath is something
relatively new in people’s minds now
people are starting to think think about
it but its relation to to the polymath
I think we’re already by being a
polymath you’re already kind of altering
your mode of consciousness in a more
subtler or in a more different way and
we know the benefits of that
so of course using psychedelics is
taking it to a completely different
level and something that we must
continue to research absolutely
absolutely because I know that it’s
getting late for you there and we’re
already over time is you know is there a
question that I should have asked you
that that I didn’t or something that you
know I should have brought up that that
we didn’t we didn’t bring up tonight um
no I think you’ve you’ve managed to
cover a lot of the important facets of
this highly fascinating phenomena I
think one thing that we must reiterate
is that is that many people might look
at this idea today skeptically but if we
understand the history on evolution of
that skepticism as we’ve touched on
briefly today and which is which I go
into in much more depth in the book will
understand that we have been conditioned
to think about the polymath in this way
so it’s very natural for us to have this
initial skepticism surrounding the
concept but I believe many people
including the listeners of this some of
the show will connect to this idea in
some way shape or form
and if any of them if it if it inspires
any of them to kind of explore or
actually pursue something they’ve always
wanted to pursue or explore something in
new it’s as you said it’s a new decade
let’s try something new it doesn’t have
to come they come at the expense of the
old in fact you you we talk about the
journey the journey is all about
evolution our own journeys through life
is an evolutionary journey so when we’ve
when we think that we’re secure and that
we’ve accomplished in one field we can
always bring new insights to that field
through external stimuli and this is a
very very important point yeah I
conclude my book with a very important
point which is that actually the true
specialist is indeed a polymath the true
specialist is indeed a polymath and the
reason for that is because now in in an
age of automation super intelligence and
all the many other futuristic scenarios
I’m sure you’ve covered through through
other episodes too with this age looming
we cannot afford to try to confine
ourselves and stay comfortable in one
field and one job alone we can’t do that
this is not an effective survival
strategy because that job or that field
will either be automated computerized at
some stage in the near future after
which you will have to reinvent yourself
so reinvention should be seen as an
opportunity but we also pre-and preempt
that that time and that scenario and we
should cultivate the competency of
versatility and adaptability and we
should cultivate the personality trait
that we all have within us which is
openness so we can explore new things or
at least have the propensity and
potential to explore new things as and
when the time comes so that when a new
opportunity arises we have some
knowledge we have some skill in it or at
least we have the enthusiasm and dry
to acquire that knowledge and skill and
and I think we’re talking about sapiens
and Yuval Harare who wrote the book
sapiens and he also wrote as you know
the homo Deus and the twenty first
twenty one lessons for the 21st century
now this is interesting because when
he’s often asked in interviews and you
may have acknowledged this when he when
he’s asked interviews what is the big
core skill what what do we need to know
how do we need to equip ourselves from
all your lessons that year that you’d
learned from reading and writing about
history in the future his his his common
answer is reinvention reinvention is the
most important skill to nurture it is
the most inevitable thing that we need
to undergo in the future and that is
directly correlated with the idea of the
polymath because whether you’re doing
things simultaneously there are in
different fields or whether you’re
having a serial career changes in
different fields that doesn’t matter the
idea is that on that journey you have
diversity that diversity can come at
once or it can come in due course it
doesn’t matter but that is something
that is a mindset that allows you to be
more open to be more flexible and to be
more indispensable in the age of the
machine this poetry will cost I mean
what a what an absolutely classic
instant classic episode I know many many
people are gonna hear this this show and
I think it’s I think the work that
you’re doing is remarkable I mean it’s
it’s so so important because you know as
we you know as we move into parental
roles and you know we have children and
we’re teaching them and we’re we’re
nurturing them I think it’s so important
to recognize that you know having this
this level of interest and you know
wanting to explore different avenues of
thought and expression that’s okay it’s
okay to do that absolutely you don’t
have to try to fit you know a circle and
a square together it just doesn’t
worked out like that so you know I’m
just I’m just elated at this episode so
I highly highly recommend the book to
anyone where can people you know get in
in your the book a copy of the book or
your website where would you like to
direct them yeah so so the the website
is the – polymath com
the book is available on all major
online outlets of course Amazon Amazon
in different countries and also the
forthcoming I should mention this that
there is a growth coming ideas festival
focused on the idea of the polymath and
interdisciplinarity which is forthcoming
in London in spring 2020 this is
something that’s really gonna take the
book to them to the next level ie take
Leah the the thought of the polymath or
the thinking behind the polymath to
action and to foster cross-disciplinary
collaborations and more information on
that will be available through social
media social medium namely Twitter the
polymath book and Twitter at the DaVinci
network
okay okay what’s the what’s the exact
URL for the website that that you have
its WWWE – and that’s the – polymath com
perfect guys you heard it here I mean
what an amazing episode absolutely
remarkable the work that what cos is
doing is just it’s truly remarkable so I
highly highly recommend you support his
work go pick up a copy of the polymath
you will love it if you enjoyed this
episode you will love
the book so you can hear how hyped up I
am about this love this I’m so
passionate about these types of things
because it’s important that we know
train the the people coming after us are
our children and their children you know
how to think in how to look at the world
right I think you would agree with that
so it’s a new decade
it’s 2020 welcome to it thank you guys
so much for listening if you enjoyed
this show leave us a review get on
iTunes thank you guys so much be back
next week really appreciate the presence
of every single one of you that are
listening happy new decade
[Music] [Music]