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thank you for listening ladies and
gentlemen welcome thank you so much for
your presence this evening we are gonna
be speaking to my guest tonight about
plant medicine just waiting for everyone
to show up here this is our Christmas
end of 2019 special and we’re
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sit back grab a drink and enjoy this
conversation the human experiences in
session my name is Xavier katana my
guest for today is mr. Carlos tanner
Carlos is the director of the ayahuasca
Foundation a nonprofit organization
based in Iquitos Peru the IUS co-found a
ssin is an organization that was created
in 2008 from Carlos’s desire to spread
the science of plant medicine and
healing to the wider world
Carlos later went on to open the Risso
Bo ayahuasca Research Center in 2017 a
research and healing center which will
study the effects of ayahuasca and plant
medicine on such issues such as
childhood trauma chronic pain PTSD drug
addiction and much more Carlos it’s a
pleasure very excited to have you here
welcome to hxp thanks thanks so much
Xavier it’s great to be here so I mean
Carlos is such a large anticipation
thank you again for making time to do
this and Christmas was yesterday so you
know it’s time for the holidays and no
one really wants to work you know today
but I’m glad I’m glad you’re here we
could talk about such an important topic
I mean but let’s you know let’s start
sort of from the beginning how did you
get to a point where you you know you
wanted to to work in this field yeah
well it’s always a challenge to try to
pick a place to start you know when
you’re talking about a life path I often
say that it all started with the movie
Return of the Jedi because
when I was just a little kid I saw the
Ewoks and they had a shaman at least it
was depicted as a shaman and that was
became like my favorite figurine for
some reason and and that was the first
time I ever really knew that there was
such a thing as a shaman I guess but
later it kind of became more real for me
I guess when I started reading Carlos
Gaston ate his books in high school and
then of course when I started
experimenting with psychedelics like
mushrooms in high school and and then
into college I started to feel like that
there was something a little bit
different about me I guess I didn’t
really want to like go to a party or
something I enjoyed being out in the
woods and then my life just continued on
after college I got a job career job
working as a production manager of a
non-profit I mean sorry have a news
weekly called the valley advocate in
Western Massachusetts and that was kind
of like oh I Here I am you know this is
gonna be my life I have my career so I
got a nice house and a nice car you know
started checking the things off of the
list that we’re supposed to do when we
become successful but a couple years in
I I wasn’t happy I was actually like
starting to feel more and more depressed
and I really felt like this was like not
satisfying this concept of success was
not what what I had imagined it to be
and I began drinking more started using
different drugs not like psychedelics
for exploration anymore I started using
opiates to try to dull myself to try to
tolerate the success I guess and and
that led me to kind of spiral out of
control and slowly like spiral my life
down into the depths of addiction became
a heroin addict but still worked you
know I I was you know keeping my job and
tolerating it by
myself be numb to it to the
dissatisfaction until that culminated in
me waking up in my car at like two
o’clock in the morning under water I had
blacked out behind the wheel while
driving high on drugs and drunk and had
to figure out where the hell I was
climbed out the window of my car swam to
the shore and at that point realized
that if I didn’t do something drastic my
life was going to end and so the concept
of success and you know tolerating it
whatever all of that didn’t matter
anymore it was more about survival and
being coming healthy again
sure and two weeks later I got an email
from a friend seemingly randomly that it
informed me that she was in Iquitos Peru
that she had met these two men from
Russia who had found a shaman that they
were drinking ayahuasca with and she had
no idea that I had driven into the river
she you know I was travelling and didn’t
know any of that news but decided to
write to me to see if I wanted to come
down so I took that as an omen and I
booked a flight and flew down to Peru
met her drank ayahuasca and I guess you
could say the rest is history but that
that the reality was that I spent the
most profound three weeks in my life in
a healing process that uncovered the
traumas that were at the root of my
addiction and the root of so many other
problems in my life and came to an
understanding what healing was on such a
deep level and also an expanded view of
what reality is on such a deep level and
during that time the shaman or as they
call them in Peru curandero whose name
was Don Juan he told me that this was my
path to be a healer my experiences in my
own process were pointing me in the same
direction and he invited me to become
his student
and be his apprentice and live with him
and I accepted his offer and so that was
in June of 2003 and then in January of
2004 I moved to Iquitos permanently and
I lived with him for four years and at
the end of really at the end of three
years I started coming up with this idea
that would eventually become the
ayahuasca foundation Wow
I mean um it’s such an amazing story you
know we’ve we’ve covered you know
various aspects of addiction on the show
we’ve had dr. Gabor Matta I’m sure you
know who that is in Krush he does a lot
of work as you know on on addiction and
I mean that there’s there’s there’s
something about being here I mean
whether it’s being incarnate here or
what but there’s something about being
in pain and and wanting to somehow mask
that suffering and and according to dr.
Mattei you know the what’s happening
with an addict is that they you know
that’s what they’re trying to do they’re
in so much pain that they’re just trying
to mask that pain level they’re in I
agree completely I mean I’m so fortunate
to be able to read his work and and I am
so thankful for his contributions for
sure but that’s exactly it you know
that’s exactly what it was for me as
well like the the addiction to drugs was
an attempt at self medication and I
think that’s what’s happening for so
many people when it comes to what you
could call emotional or even spiritual
afflictions modern medicine just doesn’t
it’s not very adequate at treating them
and you know people go to therapy for
years and years and years and and don’t
really get that far because in my view
they’re the trauma that’s caused or that
causes the the need for drug addiction
or or other addictions people express
their you know that they try to medicate
themselves
necessarily with substances but maybe
with actions you know gambling
addictions or shopping or whatever it
might be like there are other ways that
it gets expressed but all of those
causes the root causes which I refer
generally to as traumas they are all
happening at heightened sense of emotion
they’re heightened emotional states
heightened perceptive ability States
which comes from having those heightened
emotion States and so if you’re just
sitting on a couch and you’re relaxed
then you’re not going to be able to
reach the depths that those heightened
states allowed you to achieve and that’s
where psychedelic therapy becomes so
valuable and that’s why ayahuasca is so
powerful because it replicates that
heightened state except it doesn’t have
fear to replicate it and so you have a
controlled environment where you
actually have access to those deeper
levels of consciousness where the roots
are planted so to speak and you can then
pull those roots up as in the metaphor
yeah
I’ve come to like look at it a little
bit differently which is using the
reference of states of matter and so you
know we’re very familiar with the three
most common states of matter of water
which would be vapor liquid and solid or
gas liquid and solid the common three
states and those I feel could be related
to the three states of our being which
would be our mind our thoughts and the
liquid related to our emotions and then
the solid related to our physical bodies
but those can also be related to the
three states of matter in consciousness
the gas state being the state of ideas
and the liquid state being the state of
beliefs and the solid state being the
state of truth and you know the truths
reside in your body
and the truths essentially become the
foundation that you build your realities
on your personal truths and and beliefs
though they flow more like your emotions
they can change you know it’s it’s
easier to change your beliefs than it is
to change your truths and the ideas are
the the most fleeting you know like you
can have ideas come and go all the time
and then you condense them into beliefs
when there’s a particular resonance to
an idea and then a belief can sink down
into freezing so to speak you know you
can solidify a belief into a truth but
when you solidify the belief into a
truth it then begins to reside in your
body and that we would call the
subconscious because it’s just much more
difficult to access it’s solid you know
and so once you solidify a belief into a
truth it’s very challenging to liquefy
again you know to bring it out of the
realm of solid and that to me is what
happens when you have a trauma you know
you’re you take an idea that becomes a
belief through the heightened emotional
state and then it becomes solidified in
into a truth inside your body and it’s
just very very challenging to to liquefy
you know to transform that truth back
into the state of beliefs and ideas so
that it can be let go
but when you use a substance like
ayahuasca which is essentially an
amplifier of perceptive ability then you
have a much greater access to the
solidified state you know you have an
expanded awareness of what is what you
are and and what the world is around you
because you can see beyond the visible
spectrum and here beyond the audible
spectrum and all of your senses can
sense beyond their normal limitations of
biology
and by doing so you can gain much
greater access to those truths and then
you can liquefy a truth you know you can
transform a truth back into the realm of
beliefs and ideas if it doesn’t serve
you if it’s detrimental to you which a
trauma of course would be but you can
also take ideas and beliefs that are
positive and helpful for you and
solidify them you know replace a
detrimental truth with a positive truth
and that to me is the essence of the
healing process within the ayahuasca
tradition I absolutely love that analogy
so much I mean what is the human body
mostly made of is water right so I mean
it’s it’s perfect and I mean yeah and
the cells contain memory so you know
when you experience trauma its it’s like
the consciousness is a crystalline
structure and it does store you know it
does store information and in my
experience with with ayahuasca it’s it’s
kind of like a closet door that’s been
closed and the light is off and you
forgot about it in your house in the
house in your mind you’ve just you’ve
forgotten it’s there and in my
experience what ayahuasca does is it
opens that door it turns the light on
and one at a time it pulls out you know
something that you’ve forgotten about a
trauma that’s affecting you and you look
at it you observe it and you look at you
get to play with it from different
angles and you know somehow that that
affects the the healing process without
a doubt I mean you know to give the
example of my personal healing
experience and how it relates to what
the idea is that I just put forth are I
had a you know I I feel like my life was
basically very very good you know I
wasn’t my parents didn’t abuse me they
didn’t beat me or anything I wasn’t like
in the presence of you know an abusive
relationships and in my my family in my
life or anything but I did have some
traumas and
and so I was sexually molested in in a
park by a stranger when I was young and
that definitely like had a powerful
negative influence on my life
but there was a particular moment in my
life that I completely forgot about that
I I had no idea was there and in the
second ayahuasca ceremony that I
attended I relived that experience like
all of a sudden I was eight years old
again and I was in my room my brother
who shared my room was crying and I was
listening using a glass against the wall
to my parents on the other side of the
wall in their bedroom having an argument
because my father had lost his job and
they were fighting about money and
finances and I was the youngest of four
children and for some reason my mom
decided to say that they didn’t have
money for me you know and like named me
as if like to suggest that if they only
had three kids then they would have been
okay you know and then my parents went
on to get a divorce and I totally forgot
that that moment had happened but right
there in the ayahuasca ceremony I
relived this memory and as soon as I
started you know as soon as I saw the
scene like playing out I was like oh my
god I totally remember you know I
remember this this night exactly
and then I saw like how I had taken that
moment and decided that it was my fault
mm-hmm you know my mom had said me you
know she had named me as the the person
that the family couldn’t afford to have
you know and and from that moment on I
took it on myself that it was my fault
that my parents got a divorce and I was
a burden on my face
Emily and I began pushing away my
parents love like they would want to get
me new clothes for school and I would
refuse and they’d want to like throw a
birthday party for me and I would
adamantly refuse like and refuse to
accept any presence from them and and
that like started to infect all of the
relationships that I had as I got older
and older this this one seed of an
inaccurate interpretation of a
particular incident infected my entire
life to the point where I couldn’t allow
someone to love me when I was an adult
and I didn’t feel like I deserved it you
know I had like transformed that burden
to my family to a burden of the world
and and that led to this depression that
couldn’t really be resolved and I didn’t
even know that it had happened you know
I I didn’t remember but then right there
in the ceremony I reinterpreted more
accurately interpreted that same
situation but in that heightened state
and I I was able to override the
original misinterpretation and replace
it essentially like took a truth that
had been in solid form of my life for
decades and removed it and I released it
into the realm of belief and ideas and
let it go and then replaced it with a
more accurate truth that served me
better and then the next day I wrote
letters to my mother and my father
apologizing to them and asking for their
forgiveness and letting them know that I
forgave them and starting the process to
regain all of that harmony and balance
and love in my relationships and of
course like it doesn’t just fix
everything right because the you know
the effects are there they’ve been
decades of effects so you have to like
work at it for a long time yeah but at
least I had the the right foundation to
do that
and so that’s like that was a personal
example of how it happened for me and I
think that if you were to talk to pretty
much every single person in the world
they all have some story that resembles
that to some degree you know mmm-hmm I
mean it’s it’s really interesting to me
how much of a profound effect
ayahuasca can have I remember after
after the first time that I had drank
the tea the first time I had a very deep
awareness and realization that alcohol
was a poison it was poisonous to my body
and I never drink alcohol again I still
don’t I just have no need for it you
know and I mean that there’s and there’s
also something about the Western
paradigm of Western medicine that kind
of is this sort of revolving door you
know it it it doesn’t seem to seek cures
for patient its patients it seems to
want to get you on drugs sort of you
know mask the symptoms and you know
bring you back next month and and I
think the people that I encounter that
have this interest in plant medicine or
namely ayahuasca they they’re curious
about it because they’ve met this wall
in Western medicine and they are to be
honest they’re just desperate they want
to they want to be healed they want to
be you know for lack of a better word
normal they just they want to feel like
they’re making progress somewhere within
themselves you know and so they’re
searching for you know retreats that are
thousands of miles away and it’s a weird
system that we’re in would you agree
definitely I mean it’s hard to look at
where we are now and not have some level
of some sort of kind of conspiracy
theory which is which is is such a shame
you know but I definitely feel like we
had a system of medicine that was trying
to bring about health and happiness for
people
and that somehow was replaced by this
massive profit corporate you know the
corporatism of medicine that we have now
which is exactly like what you say and
it makes total sense I mean if you’re a
pharmaceutical company and you’re trying
to make money in the way that you do
that is selling medicine to sick people
you clearly do not want everyone to be
healthy you know you don’t you’re like
hey this is our whole livelihood for
ours for our shareholders to to profit
we need as many sick people as possible
do you really want people to be healthy
if anything you want to find out ways
that you can get people to be sick
because that’s going to gain more
customers so it’s it’s that’s the kind
of the conspiracy theory theory element
of it where we have what we jokingly
kind of call a health care system now
where it doesn’t really seem like people
care about you at all and they’re not
even trying to have you be healthy and
that’s not the doctor though that’s not
the nurse like I think that human to
human interaction is like people do want
you to be healthy your doctor does want
you to be healthy except that they went
to a school that was funded by a
pharmaceutical company and they and the
curriculum that they studied was
developed by people that sat on the
board of pharmaceutical companies and so
they learned essentially to become
prescribers and now in the US where you
see advertisements for prescription
drugs which is pretty ridiculous that we
even have that but they don’t even refer
to the doctor sometimes they say ask
your prescriber for more information
like just you know go to the guy who has
to write you the piece of paper to get
this because you want this drug you know
yeah I mean it’s it’s a really amazing I
guess we could you know harp on that all
night if we wanted to but you know kind
of moving on here I
you know as I was going through some of
the things some of the videos that
you’ve done and there was there was
something that I recall that you
mentioned that I really want to talk
about because I mean I guess this this
part of it fascinates me I feel like you
know in many of the visions that I’ve
had in my ayahuasca experiences it seems
like there is a sort of battle between
light and dark you know like and I mean
that you know in exactly those terms
like the the light side you know good
versus evil and I think you mentioned
want in one of your in one of your
sessions with the tea
you um you were battling a demon is that
right yeah yeah it’s kind of interesting
my first teacher he had a particular
perspective that was very kind of in
line I would say with Western medicine
in a way in the sense that he he felt
like you needed to be a warrior and you
had to have your sword in in the
spiritual dimension I was like a samurai
and in the beginning I thought that was
super cool you know to be a samurai like
in my visions I would be this badass
samurai and like chop and stuff up with
my knife with my sword because it fit
into my view also like as a westerner
like you fight an illness you fight a
disease you know you you kill the
disease and but and so that was at that
time like I would that story which I
believe was in Lepik Canyon weren’t they
when I was talking about that I’m
thankful thank you for watching those
videos by the way but um but yeah so
early on I believe that was just my
third ceremony I found a vine like just
looked down and saw that there was a
vine growing out of my belly into the
ground and I decided to follow it so my
spirit left my body and like started
climbing down through the earth
following this vine and it followed it
like through the earth all the way to
the other side of the earth into outer
space and at the very end of it was a
giant black shiny pterodactyl and you
know you got to put this into the
context that I have drank ayahuasca
twice before this you know and now I’m
having this vision and as soon as I saw
the pterodactyl I was just like you were
driving the car because it always
bothered me like how I had blacked out
behind the wheel I I kind of it when I
say I blacked out behind the wheel and
drove into a river people often imagined
that I just blacked out and swerved off
the road but that’s not how it happened
I blacked out and drove down Main Street
took a left at the light went through
two lights through the center of town
took a left on route 10 drove like four
and a half miles took a left on the road
I’d never been down one drove this windy
road down until it hit a cornfield drove
across the cornfield through the like
cornfield and then drove into the river
you know like I had this crazy like
specific route that I had driven and so
when I woke up you know I was like where
the hell and like how did I get here
like how like who was driving the car I
kept saying like who was driving the car
you know like I was blacked out like how
was i driving and not conscious and and
so as soon as I saw the Teradek you were
driving the car and and I just pulled
out my sword this was before my I don’t
think he’d even told me that I needed
one but I just had one and I chopped
that thing up into pieces and then I was
afraid that it was gonna I don’t know
Terminator 3 like back into like melt
back into itself again so I pulled out a
laser that I had just happened to have
this is all in my vision you know and
lasered the pieces into this dust that
floated in space because we were
floating in outer space
and you know I what what was that really
like what was really happening there I
don’t know I but I definitely know that
when I did that I had just defeated a
demon you know I had just with my own
force my own power my own strength
I had just vanquished a demon that was
in my life that had been attached to me
that had been connected to me and they
were you know there’s just so many and
very fast interpretations very fast
decisions that you make it was a it was
a vine coming out of my stomach and it
was perched on this vine and somehow I
just quickly knew that it was using that
vine to take energy from me and you know
it was like putting thoughts into my
head and you know all of these things
just quickly became interpretations as
soon as I was presented with the
scenario and so in defeating all of that
I then had all this like liberation like
I’m free like I don’t have that demon
and I don’t even care really what that
whole thing was except that I knew that
afterward I was completely empowered you
know I I felt like no one was
controlling me anymore like I was in
control of my life I was taking full
responsibility for my actions and and at
that in that moment like that second I
knew that I would never do drugs again
like I was you know I was done like that
was it I connected a representation of
my addiction to that creature and when I
defeated it that and I defeated my
addiction and that was how it played out
that’s amazing what a profound story
thank you so much for sharing that I
mean I think I don’t know man I mean I
think people have you know some you know
relevance to that something in their
lives perhaps they don’t feel and you
know I feel like that that the sense of
this is increasing more and more I don’t
know if it’s just a sign that times I
don’t know if it’s like a Kali Yuga
thing you know maybe we are just maybe
it’s just the way things are now you
know and maybe this is how we
learn and grow the Moses through these
battles in our lives and whether you
know it’s it’s a demon or whether it’s
something else you know it there is that
you’re you’re fighting with that and you
know there there are some people who are
called to this this role of of ayahuasca
and I know for me it’s it’s it’s in my
DNA
it’s it’s in my blood and you know for
you you felt something similar so you
know if we could get into you know you
run a center in Peru how did you how did
you get to a point where you know you
you mentioned a little bit about you
know how much your life transitioned
into something that you you know you
changed completely but you know what’s
involved in creating a Center in Peru I
mean which is basically in the middle of
the jungle right yeah totally yeah I
mean getting back to like just what you
were describing and and the state that
we’re in right now you don’t have to go
that far back in modern history and
thankfully you don’t have to go back at
all because there are cultures that are
fully intact like non westernized
cultures still exist on the planet
thankfully and and that’s who I work
with down in the Amazon rainforest but
even our ancestors no matter where
you’re from like no matter who you are
all of our ancestors practiced a form of
plant medicine that had at its core
belief the existence of us like our
existence as spirit and that all of
nature was made of spirit like every
animal had a spirit and every plant had
a spirit and we are essentially spirits
and and that isn’t that far back you
know you don’t have to go that far back
to have that be our own ancestral wisdom
but it so as a real it’s like in the
span of human history
it’s an incredibly new idea to abandon
that concept of spirit and science is
really to blame like I don’t want to
like be negative towards science because
it made so much sense for why science
came to be and why it wanted to start
out you know from the beginning I guess
or from scratch but um but science took
this notion where you know let’s start
with with the stuff that you can touch
you know let’s start with the easy stuff
the solid stuff and we’ll work our way
up and and so spirit just kind of fell
by the wayside it was it became it it
became removed you know from our our
consciousness and and then how human
culture kind of started spiraling out of
control and and so I definitely feel
like when it comes to these concepts of
demons or the concepts that the
indigenous people still use today in
their understanding of the world it is
still within a spiritual dimension it’s
their paradigm you know the spiritual
paradigm or the indigenous paradigm and
and we don’t have that and I don’t think
it’s coincidence that we don’t have a
spiritual paradigm and we are all
suffering from depression you know we
are and and it it fits consumerism
perfect
well like the corporatism like oh you
feel like you’re empty inside because
you don’t have the understanding of what
you’re truly filled with which is love
and spirit then by stuff you’ll buy
something yeah right exactly and so
we’re all coming to find that now though
we’re all kind of waking up to that and
like you are saying we’re all starting
to like feel this intuition that we need
to get back to what our ancestors were
doing and but unfortunately we don’t
have that you know I don’t have the
ability to go see where my ancestors
nobody’s doing it anymore
it’s forgotten you know it’s gone and so
we’re traveling to the distant places
left on the planet where those ancestral
traditions are
Gong’s sure and where they’re still
being practiced and so thankfully that
they are being practiced right and and
now even science is is coming around you
know it’s kind of coming full circle to
the point where even scientists have to
acknowledge that there is certainly
something beyond what our normal
understanding is and that there’s
there’s whether you want to call them
dimensions although that’s certainly
being a word being used by science now
you know that there are many many
dimensions that are existent but we
don’t aren’t able to perceive them due
to our biological limitations you know
like we’re even within our scientific
paradigm we’re coming around it’s just
that that those details of that aspect
of understanding within current science
is not permeating into general
consciousness the way that like biology
is or chemistry is you know but I think
that that’s just a matter of time and I
feel like there’s a coming together now
where you have science actually looking
directly ad ancestral traditions and
basically opening up to a new
understanding that hopefully will be
deaf will be permeating the the future
of humankind and be what brings us back
to harmony and balance and that’s where
to get all the way back to your original
question I don’t feel like I did much to
start the ayahuasca foundation or to
start the the Research Center or you
know all of that it just played itself
out you know like I just kind of
followed the path like I just did what I
was supposed to do that’s what it always
has felt like and and so now like
looking back I I look back and my like
wow this is incredible like this is so
great that that this happened you know
but I can’t really say that I did that
much of course you know I made decisions
I acted and I had faith and I trusted
but but all of the people that it
took to make the ayahuasca Foundation
and all the people that it took to get
the research projects and the the
funding from the UK government and all
of that you know like I didn’t do much
those people just showed up
you know man and I believed in it like I
believed that it was going to happen and
the reason I believed in it is because
spirit told me no the guy I had
ayahuasca showing me the way and then I
had the the bioluminescent RINO arau
like literally just setting it all up
for the research the Research Center
belongs to a tree you know it’s so true
but I basically received an email in
2013 saying hey were a charity
organization in the US and called the
grant town Foundation and I am so
thankful for the grant town foundation I
encourage anyone to like check out their
website grant town org and so thankful
for them and they offered to fund the
building of a Research Center if I would
build it Wow and I knew it was going to
be a huge project and so to help me make
that decision as to whether or not I
should do this I went into the jungle
and I did a diet with a bioluminescent
tree called NOAA Rao a tree that’s
leaves glow-in-the-dark and if you’re
watching on YouTube there’s a picture on
the right hand side of my teacher Don
Enrique up above and down below there’s
some blue leaves those are as a
photograph of the leaves that are
actually glowing and so I did a diet
with this tree which essentially meant
that I ingested it and I chose to fast
so I fasted for eight days and so I only
and ingested the extract of a root of
the root of this tree and nothing else
for eight days and I connected with this
tree and and so when I walked out of the
jungle I had drawn the architectural
plans for the research center on piece
of paper with a pen
and and so that was like clear that yes
I was going to accept this offer and I
was going to take on this project and
but it was really like no arel this tree
that brought me to that decision and no
Arau is what I feel like brought me the
researchers because I have a degree in
philosophy and a degree in art you know
I was a graphic artist as my career in
the u.s. and I knew nothing about
research and Here I am like building a
research center in the middle of the
jungle and people would of course ask me
like how are you gonna do the research
and I would say I don’t know like I
honestly I don’t know but I feel like
once I get it close to build like the
people will show up like the right
people will show up and sure enough like
a psychiatrist from the National Health
Services came and did a retreat and he
had met one of my facilitators randomly
in like a bar in Costa Rica or something
and and he did a retreat his mind was
blown he went back and he took it upon
himself to write up all the grant
proposals and he won the grant from the
national health services the UK
government actually gave him the money
to set up his research but and so all we
did was host it and then him Simon
ruffle is his name and Nigel nets band
the two of them came and they set up
their own research and they did it and
the findings are stellar and they’re
they’re gonna be published in the next
couple months but I just like two weeks
ago I was with them looking at the
results that they just finally like
finished compiling all the data at the
end of this year and it’s it’s just it’s
gonna make people’s jaws drop to see
just how effective this medicine is Wow
I mean there’s there’s so much there
Carlos I don’t know how to package that
or unpackage it I mean okay so I mean it
this bioluminescent tree that led to
this sort of enlightened state of
consciousness where you know you you’re
inspired to draw out the blueprints for
you know this what would be the center
that you’re doing all this this research
in and you know the this grant that you
got and and the people kind of appearing
in your life as they needed to and I
I fully prescribed to that same idea
that and it’s kind of how I built this
show and everything around here is you
know the people who are supposed to sort
of appear do and you know it’s it’s
always kind of been that way and not to
say it’s not a struggle it’s not hard it
is really hard to do what we’re doing
but you know we push forward I want to
get into love you know you talk about
love talk about love and and forgiveness
if you could touch on you know though
couple those two things that would be
that would be amazing yeah definitely
well I think the way that I look at you
know the way that I look at everything
is through consciousness now like I my
philosophy if you want to call it that
is that everything is made of
consciousness so the energy of the
universe is consciousness every cell is
consciousness every atom is
consciousness like everything there is
nothing but consciousness that is my
personal philosophy but of course
there’s so many different kinds of
consciousness just like we were talking
about states of matter and ultimately
those states of matter are could be
described as frequencies you know like a
lower frequency will put you down into a
solid more solid state of matter and a
higher frequency of vibrational energy
would put you in a higher state like a
liquid or eventually gas or the highest
of all the plasma state which I didn’t
really talk about which is to me spirit
and consciousness in though in in that
reference before that I was making and
and so love is in the realm of the
highest vibration and so if you picture
a wavelength you know like a line that
goes up and down
you picture one that goes up and down
with you know very very close to each
other so the peaks and the the troughs
of that wave are so close to each other
that it almost just looks like a band
that is the frequency of love and and so
musically speaking like if you if you
have a note and it has a frequency you
want it it will sound good if it
resonates with another note that has a
symmetry to those peaks and troughs in
their vibrational frequency but love has
you can’t not be in harmony with it you
know it’s it’s so there’s so many peaks
in so many troughs that like no matter
where your vibrational frequency is it’s
always gonna resonate with love and so
when you’re in a state of love like
everything is in resonance everything
you know fits everything feels right
nothing feels wrong when you’re in that
state and we fall out of that by
thinking that love is something that we
have to get from someone else mm-hmm and
that to me is part of like the the sad
state we’re in where we don’t have
spirit as our core identity like I was
mentioning before we think that we’re
individuals that are made that our
bodies and therefore we are alone
essentially in the world and even though
we have relationships we are always like
alone and yeah as a body but when you
have spirit as your core and everything
has spirit as its core then you have
this universal spirit that you’re all a
part of something and the simplest term
for that is nature we talk about nature
as if it’s something outside of
ourselves like it’s very common to say I
love being in nature but we rarely say
that we are nature and yet we are you
know of course we are we are walking on
this planet as
and every other animal is nature but not
us and and that’s just inaccurate and so
if we could get back to an idea that we
are nature then I think very quickly we
can get back into the state that by
loving nature which i think is a pretty
easy thing to do you know when you see a
beautiful mountain or a beautiful stream
or a waterfall or just a flower blooming
or hear birds chirping or even when you
see a child smiling like that it still
has that aspect of nature if we include
ourselves in that then we can easily
bring that love to ourselves and feel
that love from nature because nature
loves us the same way it loves every
tree every plant every animal and I know
that might sound like some hippy crap or
something but but it really is the
reality like that vibrational frequency
of energy is permeating all of existence
but our consciousness is so powerful
that we can deny ourselves that and in
the same respect like you got to where
you are because you felt that you
trusted this vision you know you use you
had a vision and you knew it you know
you like knew that this was going to be
it and to the point where even if there
was an obstacle you were gonna find a
way around that obstacle or through that
obstacle because you believed in it
right and and that’s what it was for me
to like I was building a research center
and I had so many problems I mean it got
hit by lightning at one point like crazy
stuff happened but I just knew to such a
degree that it that it was meant to be
that I just persevered I just did what I
had to do and and I think that every
success story has that underlying theme
that people just knew and that’s why
they were able to persevere and when an
opportunity comes and you don’t have
that belief then it’s very easy to say
now that could never happen you know
that door could never open for me kind
of mentality and then you just don’t
walk through the open door or you don’t
allow that opportunity to reveal itself
or to you know provide the gifts that it
is there to provide but when you do
believe in it then you’re ready to step
through that door you are expecting it
you know you’re just like oh well an
opportunity is going to come I know it
will because I believe in this and that
to me is the result of reconnecting with
nature and allowing yourself to bring
yourself up to that resonance of love
and that frequency of energy I mean as
such a powerful statement I think that
that realizing you know love is within
ourselves and you know there I think so
much of something that happens is that
people are seeking that connection so
much with someone else and looking for
something that’s already inside of
themselves as you know I don’t know as
as a means to get it you know through
someone else’s validation or acceptance
or maybe it’s like a neurological thing
that happens in the brain but you know
even that is short-lived you know until
you find out that when it comes from
yourself it’s it’s the most lasting and
the most pure and the most real but you
know unfortunately the way our culture
is set up it’s it’s just it’s not very
aligned towards demonstrating or showing
you that you know that that love is in
within within yourself I mean even even
with you know this idea of you know
Christmas and you know consumerism and
the way the pharmaceutical industry is I
mean there’s so many different
adversarial sort of avenues that a human
being can experience when you know
you’re just living an ordinary life and
you’re trying to get by and you know
especially this time of year I think it
it really affects people you know they
look out
you know they look externally at the
lives of others maybe it’s on Instagram
maybe it’s on Twitter what
wherever it is but you’re comparing your
life to bears and you’re thinking in
your mind like oh okay well this guy has
it this person has it made you know this
person has everything that I desire and
want in my life
and then somehow you just feel like crap
because of that you know I recently had
someone tell me exactly that that you
know they just don’t feel like they’re
in the right place in their life because
you know everyone else around them seems
to be more put together but that’s just
that that couldn’t be further from the
truth it’s just it’s not a it’s it’s a
fault it just appears that way
would you agree Carlos 100% I mean
that’s where I am I say I sum it up by
just saying nature knows but I I love I
spend a lot of time in the Amazon
rainforest and I mean like in the jungle
you know and the trees the forest like
the whole the whole environment it just
always has the answers like every every
answer and and yet the comparisons are
just futile like in nature you would
never say oh the pine tree is so much
better than the oak tree you know that
you would never that’s the that’s kind
of a ridiculous thought the pine tree is
what it is the oak tree is what it is
they’re totally different the pine tree
has all of these qualities and that’s so
cool and the oak tree has all these
qualities and isn’t that cool and and
that’s how it is with nature but for
some reason when we working we want to
compare ourselves and try to make that
claim you know I want to like try to say
like oh that one’s better and I’m not as
good or I’m better than that one and
it’s it’s kind of just useless and and
that to me is another example of how
reconnecting with nature like looking at
the trees and and plants and seeing how
they do it like they’ve they’ve pretty
much perfected it you know they’ve got
life down that they’re not
questioning their realities much you
know they’re not wondering if they’re if
they’re worth their value their 1 in
100% faith and Trust all the time and
they’re always thriving you know they’ve
given the right environment every plant
will thrive and they’ll never question
it and and that’s like to me the perfect
example of what we’re supposed to be
doing and I know it’s weird to like talk
about plants being your mentors hmm but
but that is exactly what plant medicine
is about and honestly that is exactly
what ancestral wisdom is about like all
of our ancestors were very closely
connected with a particular plant or a
group of plants that enabled them to
regain or maintain their harmony health
and balance in their lives and I mean
this was happening for tens of thousands
of years in human history and it’s still
happening and so even though it sounds
weird to say it in the state that we’re
in now in the way that our lives are it
was certainly not a weird idea for tens
of thousands of years in human history
and I think it’s just high time for us
to get back to looking at plants again
and plant medicine again and and
thankfully that’s that is what that is
what’s happening in fact on February
20th there’s going to be the thank you
plant medicine movement the social media
movement where everyone is encouraged to
use the hashtag thank you plant medicine
and share a story about how plant
medicine helped them in their healing
process and I think that’s awesome very
cool I mean there’s yeah I would agree a
hundred percent I would say that plants
are much smarter than human beings and
probably more intelligent than we will
ever be and and there there is a sort of
networked intelligence consciousness
that that understands the nature of the
universe I mean we as humans we I think
we like to think we know what’s going on
but
but it’s not – it’s not how it works we
don’t we have no clue what’s going on
here and you know plants have and
ayahuasca you know namely as a teacher I
think it it will remind you of that and
if you fight that you will it will
remind you of that in a not so gentle
way you know so I mean if if if it if an
ego thing is your problem then I don’t
know but you know there there is there
does seem to be this resurgence of
psychedelics that I don’t really like
that that term but that’s the one that
we have right now but there does seem to
be this resurgence in awareness of you
know plant medicine and the research
that’s coming out I mean we’re seeing it
be become legalized like mushrooms are
becoming legalized and there there are
institutions like John Hopkins that are
opening and the work that maps is doing
I mean there’s there’s a bunch of
institutions right now that are pushing
this research out into the water public
totally and I love it I mean I it’s so
crazy I started living in Peru almost 16
years ago and started the ayahuasca
Foundation v eleven years ago and I
never when I started the ayahuasca
Foundation the idea that ayahuasca might
be legal and that all you know plant
medicine might be legal and that
research organizations were going to be
studying it and that psychedelic therapy
was going to be a term were not far away
like five years from now you might go to
a psychedelic therapist for your
treatment of depression or anxiety or
PTSD or something like that and that is
to me really fantastic and a lot of that
is just because people are starting to
realize just how powerful we we are you
know to me the pharmaceutical industry
will pushed it too far they they were
like too greedy if they had if they had
been like moderately greedy they
probably could have kept us go
for a while but now we’re just turning
our backs on them the human race is just
fed up with it and and so we’re
empowering ourselves and and so so
grateful for John Hopkins University in
Imperial College which also announced
their grant to build a psychedelic
therapy Research Center in the UK and at
King’s College that’s helping fund the
research that we’re doing at the
ayahuasca Foundation and the NHS I mean
how crazy is it that a government is
funding ayahuasca research that is the
the future is for me looks bright it
looks very very bright and people are
returning to using plants the way that
their ancestors did and and and not you
know they’re not going full native so to
speak it’s being blended with the
developments that we have made because
it’s not like modern culture was total
crap you know there’s been some really
wonderful developments in technology I’m
certainly not against technology the
fact that you and I are talking in this
manner and so many people are listening
is amazing so I do envision like an
incredible future but that respects and
honors the the wisdom of nature and
incorporates it and now with
environmental movements as well like I
I’m really hopeful for the future
personally like I think it’s a pretty
cool time to be alive it’s definitely
interesting time to be alive I would say
we are on the precipice or in as far as
the balance goes there is there is it
does seem to be that we’re at a tipping
point where people are becoming more
conscious of what’s going on we’re
becoming more conscious of our footprint
here we’re realizing that we can no
longer sort of sustain the way that
we’ve been living in this consumerism
based society and you know people are
starting to wake up to that slowly but
you know surely and hopefully we get to
a point where more people are acting on
on this and you know taking action and
doing something for their local
communities you know like it doesn’t
doesn’t have to necessarily be you know
an adventure or you know heading out to
the junk the Amazon rainforest I mean
you can start to connect with the people
and around you that are also interested
in this and there’s form groups that I
think that would be a really great thing
I mean if that was in my area I would I
would have gone to that easily you know
at first Carlos we’re running out of
time man this flew by I want to give you
a chance to kind of wrap this together
you know if if it sounds like you know
you this was your mission and we talked
a bit you know in the pre-interview and
I asked you you know if if this was
something you felt was programmed into
your DNA and you said no you know you
and you know so I know I’m just I’m just
curious you know how you would kind of
tie all this together maybe for the
people who are searching for this
medicine maybe they’re struggling with
different aspects of trauma they’re
wondering if I you ask us for them or
not you know how do you how do you wrap
this together right well there’s a lot
of different paths to take of course in
ayahuasca certainly one of them I I have
a bias towards ayahuasca believe it or
not I definitely feel like it is one of
the most effective ways of treating
trauma and that’s the particular focus
of the research that we’re doing and the
results have just been phenomenal like I
mentioned in the ability of ayahuasca
traditional therapy because it’s not
just ayahuasca there’s a whole group of
plant medicines that are involved in
collaboration with the ayahuasca
ceremonies but to me like I said it’s
it’s it’s all about nature and like you
were talking about it you don’t have to
go far to connect with nature there’s a
park if you live in the city you know
there there’s your backyard if you live
with a backyard there are Gardens you
know luckily there’s nature everywhere
and just by connecting with it and by
connecting with it what does that mean
you know I really just mean like just
sitting in the grass like touching the
tree like feeling the leaves of a plant
something very very simple plants are
always in this harmonious state they’re
always in a state of balance they don’t
get thrown off you know their
consciousness is rock solid and they can
share that with us they can bring us to
a balanced state but if you are troubled
by trauma and you are troubled by
anxiety and crippled by depression
ayahuasca is definitely a fantastic
option our Center offers programs that
range from one week to eight weeks and
if you feel like it is your calling also
to be healer with plant medicine we have
training programs or educational courses
that we offer too and so if you if you
visit the website ayahuasca foundation
or RG you can check out that information
and soon we’ll be publishing the the
research on our own website but that
research will be published in over 10
journals in the next few months but
beyond all of it like I I think that my
greatest advice would be to try to
condense the ideas of trusting in nature
and trusting that you are a part of
nature and that you are on the right
path you know sometimes we can feel lost
and sometimes we can think that we’re
totally going in the wrong direction and
but having trust in everything working
out it will help you put one foot in
front of the other and start moving
forward and and so there are these
little things that we can do and
trusting in the process trusting that it
will all work out putting your faith in
something bigger than yourself which i
think is nature which you are will be
helpful in allowing you to figure things
out
you know allowing you to find the right
path for you and it’s all gonna work out
like I guarantee it it will all work out
that is an important perspective I think
to have just to like you said to put you
know one foot in front of the other and
a lot of people need that a lot of
people need just to find the ability to
do that Carlos where can people find
your work yeah like I said ayahuasca
Foundation o RG is our a nonprofit
organization and we have programs that
you can check out on that website I do
have a youtube series that’s also
ayahuasca foundation on YouTube where I
just did this year
10 part series on lessons of ayahuasca
things that you can do in your life
today that were taught to me by plant
medicine and and yeah I am always
available so if you ever want to write
to me you can reach me through the
website as well through the contact us
page and I’ll definitely respond and I
also I’m happy to like do calls if
people want to speak with me in person
perfect Carlos I sincerely appreciate
your time guys that’s that’s gonna wrap
it up for us here on that HIV Wow
I mean it we didn’t drop any package
during frames tonight a pretty happy at
it the quality of the stream and I
appreciate everyone that was here and I
know it’s the holidays and everyone’s
with their family so I surely appreciate
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us
thank you guys so much for listening we
will be back here next week I didn’t
take any time off at all for you guys so
we will be back on January 2nd with a
fresh episode for you guys thank you
guys so much for listening ringing it
out of here good night
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