Transcript for Episode 153 – Carlos Tanner – Healing Trauma/PTSD – Plant Medicine, Ayahuasca

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thank you for listening ladies and

gentlemen welcome thank you so much for

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sit back grab a drink and enjoy this

conversation the human experiences in

session my name is Xavier katana my

guest for today is mr. Carlos tanner

Carlos is the director of the ayahuasca

Foundation a nonprofit organization

based in Iquitos Peru the IUS co-found a

ssin is an organization that was created

in 2008 from Carlos’s desire to spread

the science of plant medicine and

healing to the wider world

Carlos later went on to open the Risso

Bo ayahuasca Research Center in 2017 a

research and healing center which will

study the effects of ayahuasca and plant

medicine on such issues such as

childhood trauma chronic pain PTSD drug

addiction and much more Carlos it’s a

pleasure very excited to have you here

welcome to hxp thanks thanks so much

Xavier it’s great to be here so I mean

Carlos is such a large anticipation

thank you again for making time to do

this and Christmas was yesterday so you

know it’s time for the holidays and no

one really wants to work you know today

but I’m glad I’m glad you’re here we

could talk about such an important topic

I mean but let’s you know let’s start

sort of from the beginning how did you

get to a point where you you know you

wanted to to work in this field yeah

well it’s always a challenge to try to

pick a place to start you know when

you’re talking about a life path I often

say that it all started with the movie

Return of the Jedi because

when I was just a little kid I saw the

Ewoks and they had a shaman at least it

was depicted as a shaman and that was

became like my favorite figurine for

some reason and and that was the first

time I ever really knew that there was

such a thing as a shaman I guess but

later it kind of became more real for me

I guess when I started reading Carlos

Gaston ate his books in high school and

then of course when I started

experimenting with psychedelics like

mushrooms in high school and and then

into college I started to feel like that

there was something a little bit

different about me I guess I didn’t

really want to like go to a party or

something I enjoyed being out in the

woods and then my life just continued on

after college I got a job career job

working as a production manager of a

non-profit I mean sorry have a news

weekly called the valley advocate in

Western Massachusetts and that was kind

of like oh I Here I am you know this is

gonna be my life I have my career so I

got a nice house and a nice car you know

started checking the things off of the

list that we’re supposed to do when we

become successful but a couple years in

I I wasn’t happy I was actually like

starting to feel more and more depressed

and I really felt like this was like not

satisfying this concept of success was

not what what I had imagined it to be

and I began drinking more started using

different drugs not like psychedelics

for exploration anymore I started using

opiates to try to dull myself to try to

tolerate the success I guess and and

that led me to kind of spiral out of

control and slowly like spiral my life

down into the depths of addiction became

a heroin addict but still worked you

know I I was you know keeping my job and

tolerating it by

myself be numb to it to the

dissatisfaction until that culminated in

me waking up in my car at like two

o’clock in the morning under water I had

blacked out behind the wheel while

driving high on drugs and drunk and had

to figure out where the hell I was

climbed out the window of my car swam to

the shore and at that point realized

that if I didn’t do something drastic my

life was going to end and so the concept

of success and you know tolerating it

whatever all of that didn’t matter

anymore it was more about survival and

being coming healthy again

sure and two weeks later I got an email

from a friend seemingly randomly that it

informed me that she was in Iquitos Peru

that she had met these two men from

Russia who had found a shaman that they

were drinking ayahuasca with and she had

no idea that I had driven into the river

she you know I was travelling and didn’t

know any of that news but decided to

write to me to see if I wanted to come

down so I took that as an omen and I

booked a flight and flew down to Peru

met her drank ayahuasca and I guess you

could say the rest is history but that

that the reality was that I spent the

most profound three weeks in my life in

a healing process that uncovered the

traumas that were at the root of my

addiction and the root of so many other

problems in my life and came to an

understanding what healing was on such a

deep level and also an expanded view of

what reality is on such a deep level and

during that time the shaman or as they

call them in Peru curandero whose name

was Don Juan he told me that this was my

path to be a healer my experiences in my

own process were pointing me in the same

direction and he invited me to become

his student

and be his apprentice and live with him

and I accepted his offer and so that was

in June of 2003 and then in January of

2004 I moved to Iquitos permanently and

I lived with him for four years and at

the end of really at the end of three

years I started coming up with this idea

that would eventually become the

ayahuasca foundation Wow

I mean um it’s such an amazing story you

know we’ve we’ve covered you know

various aspects of addiction on the show

we’ve had dr. Gabor Matta I’m sure you

know who that is in Krush he does a lot

of work as you know on on addiction and

I mean that there’s there’s there’s

something about being here I mean

whether it’s being incarnate here or

what but there’s something about being

in pain and and wanting to somehow mask

that suffering and and according to dr.

Mattei you know the what’s happening

with an addict is that they you know

that’s what they’re trying to do they’re

in so much pain that they’re just trying

to mask that pain level they’re in I

agree completely I mean I’m so fortunate

to be able to read his work and and I am

so thankful for his contributions for

sure but that’s exactly it you know

that’s exactly what it was for me as

well like the the addiction to drugs was

an attempt at self medication and I

think that’s what’s happening for so

many people when it comes to what you

could call emotional or even spiritual

afflictions modern medicine just doesn’t

it’s not very adequate at treating them

and you know people go to therapy for

years and years and years and and don’t

really get that far because in my view

they’re the trauma that’s caused or that

causes the the need for drug addiction

or or other addictions people express

their you know that they try to medicate


necessarily with substances but maybe

with actions you know gambling

addictions or shopping or whatever it

might be like there are other ways that

it gets expressed but all of those

causes the root causes which I refer

generally to as traumas they are all

happening at heightened sense of emotion

they’re heightened emotional states

heightened perceptive ability States

which comes from having those heightened

emotion States and so if you’re just

sitting on a couch and you’re relaxed

then you’re not going to be able to

reach the depths that those heightened

states allowed you to achieve and that’s

where psychedelic therapy becomes so

valuable and that’s why ayahuasca is so

powerful because it replicates that

heightened state except it doesn’t have

fear to replicate it and so you have a

controlled environment where you

actually have access to those deeper

levels of consciousness where the roots

are planted so to speak and you can then

pull those roots up as in the metaphor


I’ve come to like look at it a little

bit differently which is using the

reference of states of matter and so you

know we’re very familiar with the three

most common states of matter of water

which would be vapor liquid and solid or

gas liquid and solid the common three

states and those I feel could be related

to the three states of our being which

would be our mind our thoughts and the

liquid related to our emotions and then

the solid related to our physical bodies

but those can also be related to the

three states of matter in consciousness

the gas state being the state of ideas

and the liquid state being the state of

beliefs and the solid state being the

state of truth and you know the truths

reside in your body

and the truths essentially become the

foundation that you build your realities

on your personal truths and and beliefs

though they flow more like your emotions

they can change you know it’s it’s

easier to change your beliefs than it is

to change your truths and the ideas are

the the most fleeting you know like you

can have ideas come and go all the time

and then you condense them into beliefs

when there’s a particular resonance to

an idea and then a belief can sink down

into freezing so to speak you know you

can solidify a belief into a truth but

when you solidify the belief into a

truth it then begins to reside in your

body and that we would call the

subconscious because it’s just much more

difficult to access it’s solid you know

and so once you solidify a belief into a

truth it’s very challenging to liquefy

again you know to bring it out of the

realm of solid and that to me is what

happens when you have a trauma you know

you’re you take an idea that becomes a

belief through the heightened emotional

state and then it becomes solidified in

into a truth inside your body and it’s

just very very challenging to to liquefy

you know to transform that truth back

into the state of beliefs and ideas so

that it can be let go

but when you use a substance like

ayahuasca which is essentially an

amplifier of perceptive ability then you

have a much greater access to the

solidified state you know you have an

expanded awareness of what is what you

are and and what the world is around you

because you can see beyond the visible

spectrum and here beyond the audible

spectrum and all of your senses can

sense beyond their normal limitations of


and by doing so you can gain much

greater access to those truths and then

you can liquefy a truth you know you can

transform a truth back into the realm of

beliefs and ideas if it doesn’t serve

you if it’s detrimental to you which a

trauma of course would be but you can

also take ideas and beliefs that are

positive and helpful for you and

solidify them you know replace a

detrimental truth with a positive truth

and that to me is the essence of the

healing process within the ayahuasca

tradition I absolutely love that analogy

so much I mean what is the human body

mostly made of is water right so I mean

it’s it’s perfect and I mean yeah and

the cells contain memory so you know

when you experience trauma its it’s like

the consciousness is a crystalline

structure and it does store you know it

does store information and in my

experience with with ayahuasca it’s it’s

kind of like a closet door that’s been

closed and the light is off and you

forgot about it in your house in the

house in your mind you’ve just you’ve

forgotten it’s there and in my

experience what ayahuasca does is it

opens that door it turns the light on

and one at a time it pulls out you know

something that you’ve forgotten about a

trauma that’s affecting you and you look

at it you observe it and you look at you

get to play with it from different

angles and you know somehow that that

affects the the healing process without

a doubt I mean you know to give the

example of my personal healing

experience and how it relates to what

the idea is that I just put forth are I

had a you know I I feel like my life was

basically very very good you know I

wasn’t my parents didn’t abuse me they

didn’t beat me or anything I wasn’t like

in the presence of you know an abusive

relationships and in my my family in my

life or anything but I did have some

traumas and

and so I was sexually molested in in a

park by a stranger when I was young and

that definitely like had a powerful

negative influence on my life

but there was a particular moment in my

life that I completely forgot about that

I I had no idea was there and in the

second ayahuasca ceremony that I

attended I relived that experience like

all of a sudden I was eight years old

again and I was in my room my brother

who shared my room was crying and I was

listening using a glass against the wall

to my parents on the other side of the

wall in their bedroom having an argument

because my father had lost his job and

they were fighting about money and

finances and I was the youngest of four

children and for some reason my mom

decided to say that they didn’t have

money for me you know and like named me

as if like to suggest that if they only

had three kids then they would have been

okay you know and then my parents went

on to get a divorce and I totally forgot

that that moment had happened but right

there in the ayahuasca ceremony I

relived this memory and as soon as I

started you know as soon as I saw the

scene like playing out I was like oh my

god I totally remember you know I

remember this this night exactly

and then I saw like how I had taken that

moment and decided that it was my fault

mm-hmm you know my mom had said me you

know she had named me as the the person

that the family couldn’t afford to have

you know and and from that moment on I

took it on myself that it was my fault

that my parents got a divorce and I was

a burden on my face

Emily and I began pushing away my

parents love like they would want to get

me new clothes for school and I would

refuse and they’d want to like throw a

birthday party for me and I would

adamantly refuse like and refuse to

accept any presence from them and and

that like started to infect all of the

relationships that I had as I got older

and older this this one seed of an

inaccurate interpretation of a

particular incident infected my entire

life to the point where I couldn’t allow

someone to love me when I was an adult

and I didn’t feel like I deserved it you

know I had like transformed that burden

to my family to a burden of the world

and and that led to this depression that

couldn’t really be resolved and I didn’t

even know that it had happened you know

I I didn’t remember but then right there

in the ceremony I reinterpreted more

accurately interpreted that same

situation but in that heightened state

and I I was able to override the

original misinterpretation and replace

it essentially like took a truth that

had been in solid form of my life for

decades and removed it and I released it

into the realm of belief and ideas and

let it go and then replaced it with a

more accurate truth that served me

better and then the next day I wrote

letters to my mother and my father

apologizing to them and asking for their

forgiveness and letting them know that I

forgave them and starting the process to

regain all of that harmony and balance

and love in my relationships and of

course like it doesn’t just fix

everything right because the you know

the effects are there they’ve been

decades of effects so you have to like

work at it for a long time yeah but at

least I had the the right foundation to

do that

and so that’s like that was a personal

example of how it happened for me and I

think that if you were to talk to pretty

much every single person in the world

they all have some story that resembles

that to some degree you know mmm-hmm I

mean it’s it’s really interesting to me

how much of a profound effect

ayahuasca can have I remember after

after the first time that I had drank

the tea the first time I had a very deep

awareness and realization that alcohol

was a poison it was poisonous to my body

and I never drink alcohol again I still

don’t I just have no need for it you

know and I mean that there’s and there’s

also something about the Western

paradigm of Western medicine that kind

of is this sort of revolving door you

know it it it doesn’t seem to seek cures

for patient its patients it seems to

want to get you on drugs sort of you

know mask the symptoms and you know

bring you back next month and and I

think the people that I encounter that

have this interest in plant medicine or

namely ayahuasca they they’re curious

about it because they’ve met this wall

in Western medicine and they are to be

honest they’re just desperate they want

to they want to be healed they want to

be you know for lack of a better word

normal they just they want to feel like

they’re making progress somewhere within

themselves you know and so they’re

searching for you know retreats that are

thousands of miles away and it’s a weird

system that we’re in would you agree

definitely I mean it’s hard to look at

where we are now and not have some level

of some sort of kind of conspiracy

theory which is which is is such a shame

you know but I definitely feel like we

had a system of medicine that was trying

to bring about health and happiness for


and that somehow was replaced by this

massive profit corporate you know the

corporatism of medicine that we have now

which is exactly like what you say and

it makes total sense I mean if you’re a

pharmaceutical company and you’re trying

to make money in the way that you do

that is selling medicine to sick people

you clearly do not want everyone to be

healthy you know you don’t you’re like

hey this is our whole livelihood for

ours for our shareholders to to profit

we need as many sick people as possible

do you really want people to be healthy

if anything you want to find out ways

that you can get people to be sick

because that’s going to gain more

customers so it’s it’s that’s the kind

of the conspiracy theory theory element

of it where we have what we jokingly

kind of call a health care system now

where it doesn’t really seem like people

care about you at all and they’re not

even trying to have you be healthy and

that’s not the doctor though that’s not

the nurse like I think that human to

human interaction is like people do want

you to be healthy your doctor does want

you to be healthy except that they went

to a school that was funded by a

pharmaceutical company and they and the

curriculum that they studied was

developed by people that sat on the

board of pharmaceutical companies and so

they learned essentially to become

prescribers and now in the US where you

see advertisements for prescription

drugs which is pretty ridiculous that we

even have that but they don’t even refer

to the doctor sometimes they say ask

your prescriber for more information

like just you know go to the guy who has

to write you the piece of paper to get

this because you want this drug you know

yeah I mean it’s it’s a really amazing I

guess we could you know harp on that all

night if we wanted to but you know kind

of moving on here I

you know as I was going through some of

the things some of the videos that

you’ve done and there was there was

something that I recall that you

mentioned that I really want to talk

about because I mean I guess this this

part of it fascinates me I feel like you

know in many of the visions that I’ve

had in my ayahuasca experiences it seems

like there is a sort of battle between

light and dark you know like and I mean

that you know in exactly those terms

like the the light side you know good

versus evil and I think you mentioned

want in one of your in one of your

sessions with the tea

you um you were battling a demon is that

right yeah yeah it’s kind of interesting

my first teacher he had a particular

perspective that was very kind of in

line I would say with Western medicine

in a way in the sense that he he felt

like you needed to be a warrior and you

had to have your sword in in the

spiritual dimension I was like a samurai

and in the beginning I thought that was

super cool you know to be a samurai like

in my visions I would be this badass

samurai and like chop and stuff up with

my knife with my sword because it fit

into my view also like as a westerner

like you fight an illness you fight a

disease you know you you kill the

disease and but and so that was at that

time like I would that story which I

believe was in Lepik Canyon weren’t they

when I was talking about that I’m

thankful thank you for watching those

videos by the way but um but yeah so

early on I believe that was just my

third ceremony I found a vine like just

looked down and saw that there was a

vine growing out of my belly into the

ground and I decided to follow it so my

spirit left my body and like started

climbing down through the earth

following this vine and it followed it

like through the earth all the way to

the other side of the earth into outer

space and at the very end of it was a

giant black shiny pterodactyl and you

know you got to put this into the

context that I have drank ayahuasca

twice before this you know and now I’m

having this vision and as soon as I saw

the pterodactyl I was just like you were

driving the car because it always

bothered me like how I had blacked out

behind the wheel I I kind of it when I

say I blacked out behind the wheel and

drove into a river people often imagined

that I just blacked out and swerved off

the road but that’s not how it happened

I blacked out and drove down Main Street

took a left at the light went through

two lights through the center of town

took a left on route 10 drove like four

and a half miles took a left on the road

I’d never been down one drove this windy

road down until it hit a cornfield drove

across the cornfield through the like

cornfield and then drove into the river

you know like I had this crazy like

specific route that I had driven and so

when I woke up you know I was like where

the hell and like how did I get here

like how like who was driving the car I

kept saying like who was driving the car

you know like I was blacked out like how

was i driving and not conscious and and

so as soon as I saw the Teradek you were

driving the car and and I just pulled

out my sword this was before my I don’t

think he’d even told me that I needed

one but I just had one and I chopped

that thing up into pieces and then I was

afraid that it was gonna I don’t know

Terminator 3 like back into like melt

back into itself again so I pulled out a

laser that I had just happened to have

this is all in my vision you know and

lasered the pieces into this dust that

floated in space because we were

floating in outer space

and you know I what what was that really

like what was really happening there I

don’t know I but I definitely know that

when I did that I had just defeated a

demon you know I had just with my own

force my own power my own strength

I had just vanquished a demon that was

in my life that had been attached to me

that had been connected to me and they

were you know there’s just so many and

very fast interpretations very fast

decisions that you make it was a it was

a vine coming out of my stomach and it

was perched on this vine and somehow I

just quickly knew that it was using that

vine to take energy from me and you know

it was like putting thoughts into my

head and you know all of these things

just quickly became interpretations as

soon as I was presented with the

scenario and so in defeating all of that

I then had all this like liberation like

I’m free like I don’t have that demon

and I don’t even care really what that

whole thing was except that I knew that

afterward I was completely empowered you

know I I felt like no one was

controlling me anymore like I was in

control of my life I was taking full

responsibility for my actions and and at

that in that moment like that second I

knew that I would never do drugs again

like I was you know I was done like that

was it I connected a representation of

my addiction to that creature and when I

defeated it that and I defeated my

addiction and that was how it played out

that’s amazing what a profound story

thank you so much for sharing that I

mean I think I don’t know man I mean I

think people have you know some you know

relevance to that something in their

lives perhaps they don’t feel and you

know I feel like that that the sense of

this is increasing more and more I don’t

know if it’s just a sign that times I

don’t know if it’s like a Kali Yuga

thing you know maybe we are just maybe

it’s just the way things are now you

know and maybe this is how we

learn and grow the Moses through these

battles in our lives and whether you

know it’s it’s a demon or whether it’s

something else you know it there is that

you’re you’re fighting with that and you

know there there are some people who are

called to this this role of of ayahuasca

and I know for me it’s it’s it’s in my


it’s it’s in my blood and you know for

you you felt something similar so you

know if we could get into you know you

run a center in Peru how did you how did

you get to a point where you know you

you mentioned a little bit about you

know how much your life transitioned

into something that you you know you

changed completely but you know what’s

involved in creating a Center in Peru I

mean which is basically in the middle of

the jungle right yeah totally yeah I

mean getting back to like just what you

were describing and and the state that

we’re in right now you don’t have to go

that far back in modern history and

thankfully you don’t have to go back at

all because there are cultures that are

fully intact like non westernized

cultures still exist on the planet

thankfully and and that’s who I work

with down in the Amazon rainforest but

even our ancestors no matter where

you’re from like no matter who you are

all of our ancestors practiced a form of

plant medicine that had at its core

belief the existence of us like our

existence as spirit and that all of

nature was made of spirit like every

animal had a spirit and every plant had

a spirit and we are essentially spirits

and and that isn’t that far back you

know you don’t have to go that far back

to have that be our own ancestral wisdom

but it so as a real it’s like in the

span of human history

it’s an incredibly new idea to abandon

that concept of spirit and science is

really to blame like I don’t want to

like be negative towards science because

it made so much sense for why science

came to be and why it wanted to start

out you know from the beginning I guess

or from scratch but um but science took

this notion where you know let’s start

with with the stuff that you can touch

you know let’s start with the easy stuff

the solid stuff and we’ll work our way

up and and so spirit just kind of fell

by the wayside it was it became it it

became removed you know from our our

consciousness and and then how human

culture kind of started spiraling out of

control and and so I definitely feel

like when it comes to these concepts of

demons or the concepts that the

indigenous people still use today in

their understanding of the world it is

still within a spiritual dimension it’s

their paradigm you know the spiritual

paradigm or the indigenous paradigm and

and we don’t have that and I don’t think

it’s coincidence that we don’t have a

spiritual paradigm and we are all

suffering from depression you know we

are and and it it fits consumerism


well like the corporatism like oh you

feel like you’re empty inside because

you don’t have the understanding of what

you’re truly filled with which is love

and spirit then by stuff you’ll buy

something yeah right exactly and so

we’re all coming to find that now though

we’re all kind of waking up to that and

like you are saying we’re all starting

to like feel this intuition that we need

to get back to what our ancestors were

doing and but unfortunately we don’t

have that you know I don’t have the

ability to go see where my ancestors

nobody’s doing it anymore

it’s forgotten you know it’s gone and so

we’re traveling to the distant places

left on the planet where those ancestral

traditions are

Gong’s sure and where they’re still

being practiced and so thankfully that

they are being practiced right and and

now even science is is coming around you

know it’s kind of coming full circle to

the point where even scientists have to

acknowledge that there is certainly

something beyond what our normal

understanding is and that there’s

there’s whether you want to call them

dimensions although that’s certainly

being a word being used by science now

you know that there are many many

dimensions that are existent but we

don’t aren’t able to perceive them due

to our biological limitations you know

like we’re even within our scientific

paradigm we’re coming around it’s just

that that those details of that aspect

of understanding within current science

is not permeating into general

consciousness the way that like biology

is or chemistry is you know but I think

that that’s just a matter of time and I

feel like there’s a coming together now

where you have science actually looking

directly ad ancestral traditions and

basically opening up to a new

understanding that hopefully will be

deaf will be permeating the the future

of humankind and be what brings us back

to harmony and balance and that’s where

to get all the way back to your original

question I don’t feel like I did much to

start the ayahuasca foundation or to

start the the Research Center or you

know all of that it just played itself

out you know like I just kind of

followed the path like I just did what I

was supposed to do that’s what it always

has felt like and and so now like

looking back I I look back and my like

wow this is incredible like this is so

great that that this happened you know

but I can’t really say that I did that

much of course you know I made decisions

I acted and I had faith and I trusted

but but all of the people that it

took to make the ayahuasca Foundation

and all the people that it took to get

the research projects and the the

funding from the UK government and all

of that you know like I didn’t do much

those people just showed up

you know man and I believed in it like I

believed that it was going to happen and

the reason I believed in it is because

spirit told me no the guy I had

ayahuasca showing me the way and then I

had the the bioluminescent RINO arau

like literally just setting it all up

for the research the Research Center

belongs to a tree you know it’s so true

but I basically received an email in

2013 saying hey were a charity

organization in the US and called the

grant town Foundation and I am so

thankful for the grant town foundation I

encourage anyone to like check out their

website grant town org and so thankful

for them and they offered to fund the

building of a Research Center if I would

build it Wow and I knew it was going to

be a huge project and so to help me make

that decision as to whether or not I

should do this I went into the jungle

and I did a diet with a bioluminescent

tree called NOAA Rao a tree that’s

leaves glow-in-the-dark and if you’re

watching on YouTube there’s a picture on

the right hand side of my teacher Don

Enrique up above and down below there’s

some blue leaves those are as a

photograph of the leaves that are

actually glowing and so I did a diet

with this tree which essentially meant

that I ingested it and I chose to fast

so I fasted for eight days and so I only

and ingested the extract of a root of

the root of this tree and nothing else

for eight days and I connected with this

tree and and so when I walked out of the

jungle I had drawn the architectural

plans for the research center on piece

of paper with a pen

and and so that was like clear that yes

I was going to accept this offer and I

was going to take on this project and

but it was really like no arel this tree

that brought me to that decision and no

Arau is what I feel like brought me the

researchers because I have a degree in

philosophy and a degree in art you know

I was a graphic artist as my career in

the u.s. and I knew nothing about

research and Here I am like building a

research center in the middle of the

jungle and people would of course ask me

like how are you gonna do the research

and I would say I don’t know like I

honestly I don’t know but I feel like

once I get it close to build like the

people will show up like the right

people will show up and sure enough like

a psychiatrist from the National Health

Services came and did a retreat and he

had met one of my facilitators randomly

in like a bar in Costa Rica or something

and and he did a retreat his mind was

blown he went back and he took it upon

himself to write up all the grant

proposals and he won the grant from the

national health services the UK

government actually gave him the money

to set up his research but and so all we

did was host it and then him Simon

ruffle is his name and Nigel nets band

the two of them came and they set up

their own research and they did it and

the findings are stellar and they’re

they’re gonna be published in the next

couple months but I just like two weeks

ago I was with them looking at the

results that they just finally like

finished compiling all the data at the

end of this year and it’s it’s just it’s

gonna make people’s jaws drop to see

just how effective this medicine is Wow

I mean there’s there’s so much there

Carlos I don’t know how to package that

or unpackage it I mean okay so I mean it

this bioluminescent tree that led to

this sort of enlightened state of

consciousness where you know you you’re

inspired to draw out the blueprints for

you know this what would be the center

that you’re doing all this this research

in and you know the this grant that you

got and and the people kind of appearing

in your life as they needed to and I

I fully prescribed to that same idea

that and it’s kind of how I built this

show and everything around here is you

know the people who are supposed to sort

of appear do and you know it’s it’s

always kind of been that way and not to

say it’s not a struggle it’s not hard it

is really hard to do what we’re doing

but you know we push forward I want to

get into love you know you talk about

love talk about love and and forgiveness

if you could touch on you know though

couple those two things that would be

that would be amazing yeah definitely

well I think the way that I look at you

know the way that I look at everything

is through consciousness now like I my

philosophy if you want to call it that

is that everything is made of

consciousness so the energy of the

universe is consciousness every cell is

consciousness every atom is

consciousness like everything there is

nothing but consciousness that is my

personal philosophy but of course

there’s so many different kinds of

consciousness just like we were talking

about states of matter and ultimately

those states of matter are could be

described as frequencies you know like a

lower frequency will put you down into a

solid more solid state of matter and a

higher frequency of vibrational energy

would put you in a higher state like a

liquid or eventually gas or the highest

of all the plasma state which I didn’t

really talk about which is to me spirit

and consciousness in though in in that

reference before that I was making and

and so love is in the realm of the

highest vibration and so if you picture

a wavelength you know like a line that

goes up and down

you picture one that goes up and down

with you know very very close to each

other so the peaks and the the troughs

of that wave are so close to each other

that it almost just looks like a band

that is the frequency of love and and so

musically speaking like if you if you

have a note and it has a frequency you

want it it will sound good if it

resonates with another note that has a

symmetry to those peaks and troughs in

their vibrational frequency but love has

you can’t not be in harmony with it you

know it’s it’s so there’s so many peaks

in so many troughs that like no matter

where your vibrational frequency is it’s

always gonna resonate with love and so

when you’re in a state of love like

everything is in resonance everything

you know fits everything feels right

nothing feels wrong when you’re in that

state and we fall out of that by

thinking that love is something that we

have to get from someone else mm-hmm and

that to me is part of like the the sad

state we’re in where we don’t have

spirit as our core identity like I was

mentioning before we think that we’re

individuals that are made that our

bodies and therefore we are alone

essentially in the world and even though

we have relationships we are always like

alone and yeah as a body but when you

have spirit as your core and everything

has spirit as its core then you have

this universal spirit that you’re all a

part of something and the simplest term

for that is nature we talk about nature

as if it’s something outside of

ourselves like it’s very common to say I

love being in nature but we rarely say

that we are nature and yet we are you

know of course we are we are walking on

this planet as

and every other animal is nature but not

us and and that’s just inaccurate and so

if we could get back to an idea that we

are nature then I think very quickly we

can get back into the state that by

loving nature which i think is a pretty

easy thing to do you know when you see a

beautiful mountain or a beautiful stream

or a waterfall or just a flower blooming

or hear birds chirping or even when you

see a child smiling like that it still

has that aspect of nature if we include

ourselves in that then we can easily

bring that love to ourselves and feel

that love from nature because nature

loves us the same way it loves every

tree every plant every animal and I know

that might sound like some hippy crap or

something but but it really is the

reality like that vibrational frequency

of energy is permeating all of existence

but our consciousness is so powerful

that we can deny ourselves that and in

the same respect like you got to where

you are because you felt that you

trusted this vision you know you use you

had a vision and you knew it you know

you like knew that this was going to be

it and to the point where even if there

was an obstacle you were gonna find a

way around that obstacle or through that

obstacle because you believed in it

right and and that’s what it was for me

to like I was building a research center

and I had so many problems I mean it got

hit by lightning at one point like crazy

stuff happened but I just knew to such a

degree that it that it was meant to be

that I just persevered I just did what I

had to do and and I think that every

success story has that underlying theme

that people just knew and that’s why

they were able to persevere and when an

opportunity comes and you don’t have

that belief then it’s very easy to say

now that could never happen you know

that door could never open for me kind

of mentality and then you just don’t

walk through the open door or you don’t

allow that opportunity to reveal itself

or to you know provide the gifts that it

is there to provide but when you do

believe in it then you’re ready to step

through that door you are expecting it

you know you’re just like oh well an

opportunity is going to come I know it

will because I believe in this and that

to me is the result of reconnecting with

nature and allowing yourself to bring

yourself up to that resonance of love

and that frequency of energy I mean as

such a powerful statement I think that

that realizing you know love is within

ourselves and you know there I think so

much of something that happens is that

people are seeking that connection so

much with someone else and looking for

something that’s already inside of

themselves as you know I don’t know as

as a means to get it you know through

someone else’s validation or acceptance

or maybe it’s like a neurological thing

that happens in the brain but you know

even that is short-lived you know until

you find out that when it comes from

yourself it’s it’s the most lasting and

the most pure and the most real but you

know unfortunately the way our culture

is set up it’s it’s just it’s not very

aligned towards demonstrating or showing

you that you know that that love is in

within within yourself I mean even even

with you know this idea of you know

Christmas and you know consumerism and

the way the pharmaceutical industry is I

mean there’s so many different

adversarial sort of avenues that a human

being can experience when you know

you’re just living an ordinary life and

you’re trying to get by and you know

especially this time of year I think it

it really affects people you know they

look out

you know they look externally at the

lives of others maybe it’s on Instagram

maybe it’s on Twitter what

wherever it is but you’re comparing your

life to bears and you’re thinking in

your mind like oh okay well this guy has

it this person has it made you know this

person has everything that I desire and

want in my life

and then somehow you just feel like crap

because of that you know I recently had

someone tell me exactly that that you

know they just don’t feel like they’re

in the right place in their life because

you know everyone else around them seems

to be more put together but that’s just

that that couldn’t be further from the

truth it’s just it’s not a it’s it’s a

fault it just appears that way

would you agree Carlos 100% I mean

that’s where I am I say I sum it up by

just saying nature knows but I I love I

spend a lot of time in the Amazon

rainforest and I mean like in the jungle

you know and the trees the forest like

the whole the whole environment it just

always has the answers like every every

answer and and yet the comparisons are

just futile like in nature you would

never say oh the pine tree is so much

better than the oak tree you know that

you would never that’s the that’s kind

of a ridiculous thought the pine tree is

what it is the oak tree is what it is

they’re totally different the pine tree

has all of these qualities and that’s so

cool and the oak tree has all these

qualities and isn’t that cool and and

that’s how it is with nature but for

some reason when we working we want to

compare ourselves and try to make that

claim you know I want to like try to say

like oh that one’s better and I’m not as

good or I’m better than that one and

it’s it’s kind of just useless and and

that to me is another example of how

reconnecting with nature like looking at

the trees and and plants and seeing how

they do it like they’ve they’ve pretty

much perfected it you know they’ve got

life down that they’re not

questioning their realities much you

know they’re not wondering if they’re if

they’re worth their value their 1 in

100% faith and Trust all the time and

they’re always thriving you know they’ve

given the right environment every plant

will thrive and they’ll never question

it and and that’s like to me the perfect

example of what we’re supposed to be

doing and I know it’s weird to like talk

about plants being your mentors hmm but

but that is exactly what plant medicine

is about and honestly that is exactly

what ancestral wisdom is about like all

of our ancestors were very closely

connected with a particular plant or a

group of plants that enabled them to

regain or maintain their harmony health

and balance in their lives and I mean

this was happening for tens of thousands

of years in human history and it’s still

happening and so even though it sounds

weird to say it in the state that we’re

in now in the way that our lives are it

was certainly not a weird idea for tens

of thousands of years in human history

and I think it’s just high time for us

to get back to looking at plants again

and plant medicine again and and

thankfully that’s that is what that is

what’s happening in fact on February

20th there’s going to be the thank you

plant medicine movement the social media

movement where everyone is encouraged to

use the hashtag thank you plant medicine

and share a story about how plant

medicine helped them in their healing

process and I think that’s awesome very

cool I mean there’s yeah I would agree a

hundred percent I would say that plants

are much smarter than human beings and

probably more intelligent than we will

ever be and and there there is a sort of

networked intelligence consciousness

that that understands the nature of the

universe I mean we as humans we I think

we like to think we know what’s going on


but it’s not – it’s not how it works we

don’t we have no clue what’s going on

here and you know plants have and

ayahuasca you know namely as a teacher I

think it it will remind you of that and

if you fight that you will it will

remind you of that in a not so gentle

way you know so I mean if if if it if an

ego thing is your problem then I don’t

know but you know there there is there

does seem to be this resurgence of

psychedelics that I don’t really like

that that term but that’s the one that

we have right now but there does seem to

be this resurgence in awareness of you

know plant medicine and the research

that’s coming out I mean we’re seeing it

be become legalized like mushrooms are

becoming legalized and there there are

institutions like John Hopkins that are

opening and the work that maps is doing

I mean there’s there’s a bunch of

institutions right now that are pushing

this research out into the water public

totally and I love it I mean I it’s so

crazy I started living in Peru almost 16

years ago and started the ayahuasca

Foundation v eleven years ago and I

never when I started the ayahuasca

Foundation the idea that ayahuasca might

be legal and that all you know plant

medicine might be legal and that

research organizations were going to be

studying it and that psychedelic therapy

was going to be a term were not far away

like five years from now you might go to

a psychedelic therapist for your

treatment of depression or anxiety or

PTSD or something like that and that is

to me really fantastic and a lot of that

is just because people are starting to

realize just how powerful we we are you

know to me the pharmaceutical industry

will pushed it too far they they were

like too greedy if they had if they had

been like moderately greedy they

probably could have kept us go

for a while but now we’re just turning

our backs on them the human race is just

fed up with it and and so we’re

empowering ourselves and and so so

grateful for John Hopkins University in

Imperial College which also announced

their grant to build a psychedelic

therapy Research Center in the UK and at

King’s College that’s helping fund the

research that we’re doing at the

ayahuasca Foundation and the NHS I mean

how crazy is it that a government is

funding ayahuasca research that is the

the future is for me looks bright it

looks very very bright and people are

returning to using plants the way that

their ancestors did and and and not you

know they’re not going full native so to

speak it’s being blended with the

developments that we have made because

it’s not like modern culture was total

crap you know there’s been some really

wonderful developments in technology I’m

certainly not against technology the

fact that you and I are talking in this

manner and so many people are listening

is amazing so I do envision like an

incredible future but that respects and

honors the the wisdom of nature and

incorporates it and now with

environmental movements as well like I

I’m really hopeful for the future

personally like I think it’s a pretty

cool time to be alive it’s definitely

interesting time to be alive I would say

we are on the precipice or in as far as

the balance goes there is there is it

does seem to be that we’re at a tipping

point where people are becoming more

conscious of what’s going on we’re

becoming more conscious of our footprint

here we’re realizing that we can no

longer sort of sustain the way that

we’ve been living in this consumerism

based society and you know people are

starting to wake up to that slowly but

you know surely and hopefully we get to

a point where more people are acting on

on this and you know taking action and

doing something for their local

communities you know like it doesn’t

doesn’t have to necessarily be you know

an adventure or you know heading out to

the junk the Amazon rainforest I mean

you can start to connect with the people

and around you that are also interested

in this and there’s form groups that I

think that would be a really great thing

I mean if that was in my area I would I

would have gone to that easily you know

at first Carlos we’re running out of

time man this flew by I want to give you

a chance to kind of wrap this together

you know if if it sounds like you know

you this was your mission and we talked

a bit you know in the pre-interview and

I asked you you know if if this was

something you felt was programmed into

your DNA and you said no you know you

and you know so I know I’m just I’m just

curious you know how you would kind of

tie all this together maybe for the

people who are searching for this

medicine maybe they’re struggling with

different aspects of trauma they’re

wondering if I you ask us for them or

not you know how do you how do you wrap

this together right well there’s a lot

of different paths to take of course in

ayahuasca certainly one of them I I have

a bias towards ayahuasca believe it or

not I definitely feel like it is one of

the most effective ways of treating

trauma and that’s the particular focus

of the research that we’re doing and the

results have just been phenomenal like I

mentioned in the ability of ayahuasca

traditional therapy because it’s not

just ayahuasca there’s a whole group of

plant medicines that are involved in

collaboration with the ayahuasca

ceremonies but to me like I said it’s

it’s it’s all about nature and like you

were talking about it you don’t have to

go far to connect with nature there’s a

park if you live in the city you know

there there’s your backyard if you live

with a backyard there are Gardens you

know luckily there’s nature everywhere

and just by connecting with it and by

connecting with it what does that mean

you know I really just mean like just

sitting in the grass like touching the

tree like feeling the leaves of a plant

something very very simple plants are

always in this harmonious state they’re

always in a state of balance they don’t

get thrown off you know their

consciousness is rock solid and they can

share that with us they can bring us to

a balanced state but if you are troubled

by trauma and you are troubled by

anxiety and crippled by depression

ayahuasca is definitely a fantastic

option our Center offers programs that

range from one week to eight weeks and

if you feel like it is your calling also

to be healer with plant medicine we have

training programs or educational courses

that we offer too and so if you if you

visit the website ayahuasca foundation

or RG you can check out that information

and soon we’ll be publishing the the

research on our own website but that

research will be published in over 10

journals in the next few months but

beyond all of it like I I think that my

greatest advice would be to try to

condense the ideas of trusting in nature

and trusting that you are a part of

nature and that you are on the right

path you know sometimes we can feel lost

and sometimes we can think that we’re

totally going in the wrong direction and

but having trust in everything working

out it will help you put one foot in

front of the other and start moving

forward and and so there are these

little things that we can do and

trusting in the process trusting that it

will all work out putting your faith in

something bigger than yourself which i

think is nature which you are will be

helpful in allowing you to figure things


you know allowing you to find the right

path for you and it’s all gonna work out

like I guarantee it it will all work out

that is an important perspective I think

to have just to like you said to put you

know one foot in front of the other and

a lot of people need that a lot of

people need just to find the ability to

do that Carlos where can people find

your work yeah like I said ayahuasca

Foundation o RG is our a nonprofit

organization and we have programs that

you can check out on that website I do

have a youtube series that’s also

ayahuasca foundation on YouTube where I

just did this year

10 part series on lessons of ayahuasca

things that you can do in your life

today that were taught to me by plant

medicine and and yeah I am always

available so if you ever want to write

to me you can reach me through the

website as well through the contact us

page and I’ll definitely respond and I

also I’m happy to like do calls if

people want to speak with me in person

perfect Carlos I sincerely appreciate

your time guys that’s that’s gonna wrap

it up for us here on that HIV Wow

I mean it we didn’t drop any package

during frames tonight a pretty happy at

it the quality of the stream and I

appreciate everyone that was here and I

know it’s the holidays and everyone’s

with their family so I surely appreciate

if you’re listening to this on you to

make sure you click like and subscribe

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at the top of that you can come and join


thank you guys so much for listening we

will be back here next week I didn’t

take any time off at all for you guys so

we will be back on January 2nd with a

fresh episode for you guys thank you

guys so much for listening ringing it

out of here good night

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