Transcript for Episode 149 – Matt Wallaert – Succeeding as an entrepreneur, Building Products that change the world


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incredible show planned you guys this

evening we are going to be discussing

behavioral psychology and building

products that create change thank you so

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you’re here now live with us right now

this is going to be a highly informative

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enjoy this conversation the human

experiences in session my name is Xavier

katana my guest for tonight is Matt

Wahlert matt is a behavioral scientist

and entrepreneur for over 10 years matt

has been applying behavioral science to

practical problems from start up exits

to fortune 500 to an array of pro-social

side projects he’s given hundreds of

talks on the science of behavior

behavior change and is currently the

healthcare industry’s first chief

behavior officer at Clover health a

Medicare Advantage plan changing the

model of insurance by changing behavior

Matt is a graduate of both the Lee Pope

Sean United World College of Hong Kong

and Swarthmore College he also spent

time in a ph.d program at Cornell he has

given hundreds of talks on sign the

science of behavior of change at such

places such as TEDx virgin and Microsoft

Matt it’s a pleasure welcome to hxp

Xavier hecta having me

yeah um thank you so much you gave me a

little bit of a panic attack before the

show when it’s okay we’re here we’re a

little bit late but it’s good well we’re

right on time my friend the one of my

favorite West Wing episodes the the

president Bartlet has to go out and and

to a debate and his wife cuts off his

tie just as he goes onstage so that they

have to Curley rip his tie off and put

on a new tie and it helps him sort of

stay in the moment I sometimes think you

know when it doesn’t work out when I

have to rush on stage sometimes those

are the most fun because I come in just

live totally live and since this is a

live podcast this time this is kind of a

fun experience yeah there’s an

adrenaline rush definitely when that

happens a bit of a pattern interrupt as

well so tell us you know tell us how you

got into this world of studying

behavioral change

give us sort of the background set the

stage for us a bit sure so I’m a little

bit of an unusual psychologist in the

sense that you know I grew up in very


oregan I don’t think there were any

psychologists anywhere near me where I

certainly if there were I certainly

didn’t know them and I grew up with a

very sort of you know traditional

American view of what psychology was you

know you go to some you know guy with a

grey beard and you lay on his couch and

he asked you very for he’d like

questions then he tells you how you feel

and you know when I got into college I

really got an opportunity to discover a

whole different kind of psychology and

so I fell into something that we call

social psychology which is not about

sort of individual psychology not about

sort of abnormal psychology but instead

sort of about what makes us similar

across people right and how we interact

in very similar ways in reaction to our

environment and then one of the things

that sort of comes out of that is well

we then can change the environment to

change how people behave and so I got

very interested in sort of making the

world better by improving the

environments in which people behave to

help them change their behaviors and you

know had some really I had a wonderful

experience where I had this professor

and we read a paper about something

called the IAT the implicit association

test okay so some of you may be familiar

with it you know it the most traditional

version that people know of is the

racial IAT so it flashes good and bad

words and black and white faces and you

have to very quickly categorize them

left or right left or right and what the

authors proposed is that it shows

people’s implicit bias and I didn’t

disagree with the data they had

collected but I felt they were

overreaching their interpretation and my

professor this wonderful wonderful

teacher named Andrew Ward said this

really amazing thing to me he said look

the field agrees with their

interpretation but this is science means

in science there is an orderly way to

respond which is to run your own

experiment and prove that things are

different than the way that we had

understood them previously for sure and

that’s just like a I mean it’s just sort

of blew my mind as an undergraduate

because up to that point you know I had

seen you know privileged articulate you

know being smart those were the things

that sort of made people win arguments

and gave them power and the

approach to science was like no it

doesn’t matter that you’re like a first

generation college kid from rural Oregon

like you can be empowered by evidence

and so that just got me totally hooked

and I ended up you know sort of going

through and getting my social psych

degree and and and it’s sort of defined

the rest of my career hmm yeah I mean it

really does the book start at the end it

really does get into the science of it

all I’m not sure what I expected when I

opened it I mean I I’m really not sure

what I expect maybe I judged it by the

cover or something but it really does

dig into the science and sort of the

meat of creating these products that

that can build change for us

is this is this your first book it is my

first and only book and and certainly

it’s as far as I know and intend the

last I I was not looking to be an author

but but this wonderful imprint portfolio

which is part of Random House came to me

in and really convinced me that you know

they felt like I had something to say

and wanted to help me say it and they

did an amazing job of helping you know

sort of get it out of me and you know

it’s it’s it’s an amazing experience

writing something I have a four year old

and one of the things as save you know

from reading the book it is in a very

you know it’s it very much is in my


there’s cursing you know it you know it

sort of it’s very self referential I use

myself as an example my family is an

example I make fun of myself throughout

it and someone pointed out to me after

it came out they said you know if

something happened to you you know

you’re your kid now has this amazing you

know sort of artifact that is very

clearly you and a summation of your

life’s work to this point

mm-hmm and it’s sort of a lovely thing

and so I’m very glad to have written it

I don’t know that I have anything more

to say but quite glad that I had this to

say right now well I mean you never know

I mean things might change later down

the road you might find yourself you

know writing another book but let’s get

into this one okay so at the beginning

of the book you talk about Apple I mean

that’s that’s a go-to when you’re

referencing products that that changed

the world right so I mean you talked

about how the narrow

around its success doesn’t really tell

the true story of of Apple and then you

get into something you call the two

why’s what are the two wise and and how

do they they affect the way we build

products yes so Apple was chosen sort of

deliberately because to your point it is

sort of the canonical example and people

are very often associate Apple success

with its brand which I think certainly

the brand is a component of it but you

know the way I always sort of think of

products is to your point these two

why’s so once we’re talking about

designing for behavior change right once

we’ve established what behavior it is we

want to change which is a very important

and not always easy first step but once

we’ve done that then it essentially just

boils down to two questions which are

why would anyone ever want to do that

and why aren’t people already doing it

mm-hmm and so if you said you know I

want to get people to eat pistachio ice


you know you would you need to start

from the place of well why would anyone

ever eat pistachio ice cream and why

aren’t given that there are reasons to

eat pistachio ice cream why are they not

already eating pistachio ice cream and

that’s what allows us to then

systematically go you know start to

build interventions that act on the

reasons that people would ever want to

do it and then remove the barriers to

acting on those motivation right right

uh-huh I mean I find it fascinating to

study this so then you you talk about

different types of pressures promoting

and inhibiting pressures and I mean this

is serene the two wise are sort of at

the heart of your book but it’s it’s

linked to promoting pressure and then

second to inhibiting pressure what do

you mean by these different pressures

and how they how do they affect

behavioural change yeah sure so

promoting pressures are anything that

makes a behavior more likely inhibiting

pressures make a behavior less likely

and so the canonical example I use in

the book is mm who’s right you know we

eat them because of taste and brand and

color and all these wonderful things and

then you know we things that make them

less likely our you know availability

cost etc and so those are you know those

are sort of mapped to those two

questions right you could think of

promoting pressure

as what are all of the things that make

what are all the reasons that one might

eat M&Ms I I’m always a little I don’t

love the word reasons because it leads

us to this very logical place and you

know identity and emotion can be some of

the most powerful reasons there are but

it’s not all logic but you know there

are these reasons to do things which we

call in hip promoting pressures and then

there are these inhibiting pressures you

know the reasons not to do them things

that make them more difficult and you

know that we have predictable errors it

turns out as creators of things so for

example when you ask people to create

you know to create a behavior I want

Savior to go to the gym more often they

gravitate towards promoting pressures so

we have this bias where it turns out we

are more likely to generate promoting

pressure based interventions when when

it’s phrased as more and if I said you

know how do you get Savior to go less to

the gym right then you gravitate towards

those inhibiting pressures well I’ll

punish him I’ll make it harder to do and

so what that implies is that there is

almost always opportunity space on the

opposite side we don’t think enough

about the barriers that prevent people

from doing things instead we just

automatically think well they just don’t

want it enough and so I think by you

know moving from sort of the the madmen

world of just you know going with what’s

natural instead mapping out these

pressures and and more directly

addressing them we can get to a better

place you know one of the examples I

often use is helping women get raises

right one of the really problematic

narratives has been you know sort of

well women just need to want it more

than you to be more aggressive they need

to lean in etc but I don’t know any

women that don’t want to be paid fairly

right there’s no women that I know that

are like yeah I really want to be to

make less than I’m worth I want to get

less than my business value sure right

but but because we sort of phrase it as

a well they need to do X more they

gravitate towards those motivations when

in reality you know women face a number

of barriers a number of what we would

call inhibiting pressures that make it

harder and so if we want to change their

behavior what we really need to do is

remove those inhibiting pressures not

focus on

on sort of the promoting pressures huh

god that’s so fascinating I I was

actually watching and when I was when I

was reading this book I it made me think

of something that I saw of Steve Jobs

and it’s like it was this video of him

explaining how to market their products

and it was a phenomenal video and he was

talking about I mean he brought up Nike

and he brought up Apple and he was

talking about selling a you know like a

vision and he talked about how you know

in these commercials that were do

performing the the most well that nor

Nike was never talking about shoes they

weren’t giving these technical like

examples of how their their shoes you

know make you walk better or run better

or whatever it is it’s really

interesting to me how we can play with

these different perceptions to the

success of a brand or the the failure of

a Brian

Brent absolutely and and I actually know

the clip you’re talking about that

except would send it to me earlier this

week so I was very fresh in my mind the

thing I think that maybe people miss in

that is it’s not just the brand it’s the

connection of the brand to what they

actually do so I’ll give you a Charles

travail over at Interbrand and I had a

conversation once and he actually made

and he did an experiment once where he

made something I can’t remember the name

right now it was like an expectations

index but basically he measured you know

if we show Savior a commercial for an

iPhone and then ask him you know what do

you expect this iPhone will do for you

and then we give it an iPhone and let

him play it play play with it how well

how can grew into are those right so

just the does the advertising accurately

portray the experience that you will

have using the thing and so he called it

you know sort of the expectation gap or

something where he looked at brands

where you know they’re they’re

advertising gave you a false perception

and brands where it gave you a much more

real life expression and I think the

thing about Apple that was quite magical

is yes they had these very lofty

commercials about you know creating

things using the iPhone but then they

actually delivered on it right like

using an iphone to create something

actually is sort of magical and they

have created an amazing device for

creation right and so you know it wasn’t

just an empty brand promise this is

where I think you know coke you know

shows you images that would make you

think if you drank a coke that you would

you know dance really well or look

really fashionable or you know have a

really great significant other or

whatever and in reality drinking coke

will do none of those things for you

right and so I think it’s that marrying

of you know the promoting pressure that

is that as identity and brand etc to the

actual experience of using the thing

that is that creates the sort of true

magic hmm yeah that makes a lot of sense

and you know I was really thinking about

promoting and inhibiting pressures and I

was thinking about I was trying to think

of examples of ad campaigns or products

that had shifted in you know the only

thing that I could think of was like

smoking right like there there was this

whole trend of celebrity smoking that

was a big thing through the 60s and then

it started to change right so when you

talk about you talk about inhibiting

pressure and how that is kind of your

your favorite why why do you prefer that

over promoting pressure well I think you

know part of it is the thing we already

talked about a little bit right there is

this notion that the it just turns out

that people ignore inhibiting most of

the time when we think about changing

behavior we’re trying to get people to

do something more right unless you have

a kid then you’re often trying to think

about them to do something less but in

many you know in most professional

context it’s about more of a behavior

and so that means that the predictable

error that they miss is not putting

enough emphasis on the inhibiting

pressure side but there are some other

special characteristics of inhibiting

pressures that make them particularly

attractive to me one of them is the

homogeneity it turns out that promoting

pressures are art tend to be relatively

heterogeneous so if you know we talked

about going to let’s go back to going to

the gym we want Savior to go to the gym

like Xavier goes to the gym because he

wants you know six-pack ABS Matt go to

the gym because of the way it makes him

feel and Bob goes to the gym because you


there’s a pretty person at the who you

know there’s a pretty person at the

front desk right those are all different

motivations but the inhibiting pressures

are the same you know distance he said

the inhibiting pressure constant for all

of us the cost of the gym is an

inhibiting pressure for all of us right

and so it turns out that in general and

debating pressures are more Universal

and so what that means is you know sort

of pound for a pound if I can remove one

in promoting pressure or one inhibiting

pressure the inhibiting pressure will

pay off across more people because it

turns out that the that that you know we

all tend to be affected by the same

inhibiting pressures hmm yeah I mean it

again it’s resoundingly accurate does it

does fall true I want to talk about IDP

in intervention design process I mean

this is the first time that I’ve

actually read this word heard this word

before so or this term before so I mean

why don’t you explain that to us

nothing I made it up

yeah we just needed a way to so so I to

the horror of my publisher when they

first talked to me I was like I really

want to wait a handbook right like that

my original title for this thing was

like the handbook of applied you know

behavioral science they were like you

can’t call it that no one will buy it

but like I wanted something that was

really intensely practical you know I

love pop psych books there’s a number of

really great books out there but I think

that they well they stir up our interest

they don’t actually tell us they don’t

change our behavior I sort of at the

beginning of the book point out the

whole point of my book is to change your

behavior right if you don’t walk away

from the book more likely to actually go

create behavior change then I have

failed in my job and so one of the ways

to reduce the inhibiting pressure to

changing your behavior is to give you a

very structured process to follow and

that’s what the IDP is it’s not meant to

be the be-all end-all I’m sure someone

will come up with a better version right

and I think that’s great I hope people

do but what I can do as the author is

sort of say here’s a template that makes

a little easier to do so that the IDP


a you know roughly eight to ten week

process in which you articulate a

behavior that you want to change do

something we call the behavioral

statement you then go out and do

quantitative and qualitative insights to

try and understand by looking at data

and observing humans like what the you

know how to answer those two questions

why would anybody ever want to do this

and why are they not already doing this

you then map that out into those

pressures and start to design

interventions and then really key

because remember this is science you go

out actually pilot interventions right

so you actually go try things in the

world and measure whether they are

effective which is I think really really

key to to you know sort of the

advancement of the human species and and

sort of better products is the notion

that we can actually go try things first

see if they work iterate iterate iterate

iterate before we’re like ready to

actually bring things to scale right

yeah I mean this there’s so much I want

to ask you Matt so there’s okay there

are these few examples Facebook has it

creates no content

uber owns no cars whatsoever Airbnb


owns no hotels there do what are they

doing that is so different that has led

to such a great success that they’ve

they’ve sort of encountered the success

of a company is never one thing right

it’s timing

it’s the zeitgeist of many things that

are that are going on in the world but I

mean I think if you look at something

like Facebook we know Facebook was

tremendously effective at changing

people’s behavior and and Facebook in

particular you know I think often

companies that are very successful are

changing our behavior see something or

and often stumble on it that you know

maps to a very core motivation or

something that we hadn’t previously

realized I think Facebook’s sort of

version of that was identity I don’t

think they realized I don’t think people

prior to that had had really clearly

articulated and understood that as

disposable income goes up people will

spend the dama

and amount of their time and money on

you know sort of trying to stand out or

fit in or both and so by creating a

really handy tool you know I mean

Facebook has an amazing dual purpose

right it both makes us feel connected to

everybody else but also gives us a

chance to be unique special individuals

and so that combination I think prior to

Facebook was very rare you know in

roomers case for example I really do

think it was payment right I don’t think

people realized how strong the

inhibiting pressure of payment was and

it’s actually interesting to me in many

ways I feel like people still haven’t it

is shocking to me where what you know 10

15 years out from from uber I think it’s

been 10 years why are we still paying in

restaurants I don’t understand it like

given the complete you know people are

like it’s a hard problem yes I get it’s

a hard problem lots of things are hard

problems it is astonishing to me that I

still have to wait for a check hmm given

the I think what uber is demonstrated

the incredible power of just what I’ve

done I get up and leave mmm I can’t

chucking to me that we have not removed

that inhibiting pressure of payment

across more across more sort of places

in the food chain

sure sure I mean it what has changed in

the last you know 10 years is it

information is it the way is it the way

that we connect socially because of the

Internet and is it a platform that we’re

giving these new spaces

I mean entrepreneurship has kind of

exploded in last 15-20 years or so yeah

you know entrepreneurship has I think

there’s two factors that have really

made entrepreneurship sort of there’s a

promoting pressure and there’s an

inhibiting pressure on the uninhibited

pressure side it is now much easier to

to sort of get to a minimum version of a

product quickly across almost every

across almost every part of creating a

product so meaning is now easier to

market something than it’s ever been

before it’s now easier to actually

literally build something than it’s ever

been before right it’s it’s it’s easier

to then measure

the effectiveness of things more than

it’s ever been before so I think that

those sorts of things you know that

reduction of inhibiting pressure around

just the creation process right is so

much you know I think people would be

blown away you know if you transported

somebody from a hundred years ago you

would be blown away by how easy it is to

create right and I think a hundred years

from now will experience that as well I

think that you know if we could fast

forward you know it’ll just be it is

even to me right so I’m 37 years old

right in my lifetime you know in my sort

of teenage years onward there has been

digital photography but it used to be

really really hard right you had to like

you take a picture onto a camera then

you know to connect the camera to a

computer then you had to like process it

in facebook and the kit and the pictures

were all really bad until you have to

color correct them and you had to like

you know edit out all the dust and the

bits and whatever you know and now write

almost essentially seamlessly I can take

a nearly perfect picture like

automatically I don’t have to download

or upload it or do anything anywhere at

Liz Rabbids it on my phone it’s backed

up in the cloud I can auto share it on

whatever right set up appropriately the

inhibiting pressures are almost nil

which is why the creation velocity has

gone up so much the other thing about

entrepreneurism entrepreneurism that has

changed is you know I’m I’m a sort of

perfect age to have watch this happen

when I was younger nobody talked about

entrepreneurs right it was not an

identity based segment and if it was it

was sort of like you know a negative

identity based statement right it was

sort of a sketchy thing to do now it’s

you know everybody wants to be it it’s

an incredibly desirable thing to be

right and so I the way that I am so

often struck by this because that is not

universally true globally and so as a

guy who gets to travel a fair bit and do

speaking engagements in other parts of

the world you know I often get to be in

environments where you know being an

entrepreneur is still considered a

little bit sort of risky and edgy and

something that you know sort of it’s

like little like being a starving artist

right and so watching that play out and

watching the struggle of entrepreneurial

people as they you know try and interact

in an environment where everyone is

telling them that that’s the wrong

choice I think is really is really

interesting yeah I mean there there is

there does seem to be a sort of feature

of the entrepreneur ships or vision or

role that is regarded in a very starving

artist’s sense it may be culturally it

is that is there is there a single thing

that you see when you’re in the startup

world quite a bit so I mean is there a

single thing a resounding universal

truth that you see founders doing that

you’ve you know that you think or you

regard as this is the right move this is

what you did correctly this is how you

saw through a problem is anything like

that yeah I mean the number one thing

that I think people do correctly this is

very hard to do I think is figure out

how to run the right-sized pilot right

meaning too small and you can falsely

abandon an idea or falsely confirm

something and really think it’s the

right thing and too large you know you

can just run out of sort of resources

before you have time to pivot right and

so there’s this very interesting sort of

threading the needle effect where you

know you just want to hit just the right

size that you still maintain enough

resources to be able to pivot around and

sort of you know get the right thing but

that you’re not you know so small that

you reach a sort of a false confirmation

or a false rejection of an idea hmm okay

fair enough

has there have you noticed or seen like

the sort of unicorns that maybe would

give a false impression of you know the

range of time it takes the success of a

product or launch yeah yes and I think

part of the problem is narrative right

like you know I feel like I’ve talked

about uber a lot and given how much I

sort of the sexism if their founder but

like uber is a good example where I

think what people tell the narrative

they’re like oh

overnight right it took over the world

and I’m like you mean over the course of

10 years right right like that’s not

quite overnight man right like it was

very very long and you know it’s sort of

taking you know it has had a profound

change and relative to its change I can

understand what people are saying right

they’re saying well you know given the

size of the magnitude of the behavior

change it sure seems short but it out

tell you’re a long time and I got a four

year old and he changes every week right

like I think that people just have this

this narrative where and you know it’s

part of the way that you know sort of

human recall works you know we have this

tendency to not accurately understand

time and having done start you know been

successful at building and selling

startups it’s long it’s a slog you know

it may look like an overnight success

and part of the problem is there’s a

tipping point right you know there are

not all startups by the way have a

hockey stick but many of them do and so

there’s this tremendously long period

where you’re working very hard and

nobody knows who you are and then all of

the sudden it seems like everybody knows

who you are right and that’s true medias

are really another you know we don’t

have to go to startups to that media is

a great example of that right there’s

this artist that nobody’s heard of and

then all of a sudden it feels like

everybody’s talking about right right

and then you know either they have

staying power they don’t books great

example you know like you know it’s it

takes a really long time to write a

really good book and it’s not just the

writing I mean it took me 10 years to

figure out how to do this right the

writing was the easy part for sure and

so you know that journey is very very

long and I think that people

misunderstand you know so many ideas

people just give up too early yeah I

mean I I think I think that’s there’s no

question I mean I think a lot of people

see the end result of whatever a product

might be or you know whether it’s an

artist and a new album that they’re

releasing or you know the the growth of

a company and sort of the mapping of a

product to launch and then you know you

receiving it on this this end and you

thinking oh well wow you know they they

struck gold here

and you know they were able to do

something no one else did and that’s not

often the case it’s usually a lot of

failure that comes with you know true

successes just failing over and over and

over until you finally kind of get it

right yeah 100% and I think that you

know it’s like any expertise right you

spend years learning how to make

something look look easy right

people often sort of a comment on my

speaking style right because I’m a very

unusual speaker every one of my talks is

different I don’t prepare at all I have

no notes and no slides I just go up and

talk about my thing and love that and

people often sort of comment on that and

they’re like you make it look so easy

and I’m like yeah because I know my

topic super well right I spent a

really long time like getting really

good at this one thing right and so yeah

if you ask me to talk about that thing I

do really well I I often think about you

know what if you asked a company to

solve another kind of problem right so

this is sort of my my way of staying

humble as a founder and as a start-up

executive right it’s still like you know

sure but if you went to the you know

Travis and you said okay Travis now

solve you know medicine like yeah baby

he’ll do OK at it but you’re terrible

right like no prior success when success

is one is a data point of one right

predicts almost nothing about the future

right it’s only repeated success that

does and so you know the people that are

that my heroes in the entrepreneurism

space are people like Dave cancel right

David cancel over in Boston you know you

just look at his resume of stuff and

you’re like dude like you’re like 10

companies in and everything you touch

turns to gold so either you’re the best

company picker I’ve ever seen

we’re just really good at this right and

so I mean there are some people who are

just sort of born to do this and to

create products and solve problems and

then there are others that you know go

the other direction and it’s it’s a hard

Road to learn that you know you’re not

that guy you know you’re just not really

meant to lead a company lead the charge

yeah I there’s a there’s a very

formative experience for me I I often

lecture Columbia Lee Columbia and they

had a one of my friends that runs a

summer program for for young

entrepreneurs it’s you know it’s run out

of business school and so you know young

kids high school kids come around the

world to participate in this

entrepreneurs program and I remember

giving a talk what summer and I said how

many of you want to be the CEO of your

startup and every single one of them

raised their hand and I said and I said

look do you how many of you think I’m

really cool and everybody raised their

hand because they’re required to and you

know because I’m old and they’re young

and so they were like oh yeah you’re

really cool and I was like I have no

desire to be the start of the CEO of

anything ever I’ve never been the CEO

and I never want to be the CEO and this

was really challenging for a lot of them

because in their minds right they had

that was that was you know what it means

to be an entrepreneur is to be this one

thing I think it’s not that find the

thing that you’re good at it hopefully

you love that thing and and you know but

find the thing that you’re really good

at and do that startups need GMOs and

they need CTOs and they need you know

heads of bizdev and they need product

people and they you know they need all

of these things in order to function

mm-hmm and you don’t have to be good at

all of them you just have to be good at

one of them and and then have a broad

interest in the rest you know I talk

often about I have a very very very

diverse team at Clover of the people

that work for me you know I only have

one white guy and recently added a

second a white woman but everybody else

is a person of color and the everyone

else is a person of color and a woman

actually and so and they come from

really tremendously diverse backgrounds

personally professionally cetera and so

the first time we ever had a team

meeting you know I have a very ask me

anything sort of stale style and so one

of them was like why us right you’ve

built this really weird-looking team and

this doesn’t look like any team I’ve

ever seen like why us and so I gave them


a scale from psychology called the need

for cognition scale and it’s basically a

measure of like how much do you take

pleasure in thinking and so and it’s a

lovely scale because I think a lot of

scales sort of Telegraph what the right

answer is and I don’t think it does this

you know it has it has items like I

really hope everything in my life is a

puzzle right not everybody would say yes

to this lots of people would say man

that sounds really terrible I don’t want

everything you might like to be a puzzle

but they all of course score off the

charts high on the need for cognition

and so I talk about you know having a

t-shaped team they all have individual

expertise that they’re very good at but

they have really broad interest and so

we talk about you know the bottom part

of the tea is their legs and the and the

top part of tea is their arms and the

thing I always tell them is you know

your legs help you stay grounded and

your arms help you fly right so having

really deep deep expertise at something

gives you the ability to always be

employed and employable right because

you know you can always get a job in

that expertise but you know having broad

interests create you know being curious

about the world being really engaged is

what gives you the ability to really

have exponential sort of job growth is

that is that ability to sort of spread

your arms and sort of be interested in a

little bit of everything while still

maintaining that deep expertise and I

think that’s one of the one of the hard

parts for for the generation directly

below me is I feel like people often

only get one of those so they’re sort of

jack-of-all-trades folks who or Jill of

all trades who sort of like you know

have done a really good job of curating

their curiosity but they haven’t really

found something that they can have deep

expertise in and vice versa there are

some people who are incredibly skilled

at one thing but have sort of neglected

being interested in in and engaged in

the rest and I think that’s a that’s a

real challenge for through that

generation that and you know one of my

fervent hopes is that we find ways to

make it okay for them to to you know

sort of both curate expertise and go go

gonna be interested broadly yeah I mean

it’s amazing I there I’m watching the

the chat go by right now and there are

people writing about you know running

startups and

so it’s interesting you know but I

wanted to ask you about a situation I

guess I mean it’s it’s it’s the the

early 1900s like just the turn of the

century and it’s a battle of two minds

Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla and there

was something that they did completely


right and I guess Edison was able to

take his product to market better that’s

why we you know use I mean that’s why we

know more about him and Nikola I mean

he’s he’s not really talked about you

know in in the mainstream so why why do

you think that is what do they do

differently there well they I mean first

of all I’m gonna talk about it but I

should point out that there are people

who have have thought very deeply about

this and are much more to kill it that I

am about it I think actually one of my

so so weirdly there’s a wonderful author

Graham Moore who I know very well and in

during when we were doing the second

startup he wrote his second book in our

space and it is actually it’s he writes

often sort of historical fiction and he

actually writes specifically about

Westinghouse Nikola Tesla and and Edison

and sort of the race to two to the

lightbulb and sort of like broad

lighting and electricity across the

United States and you know sort of

highlights the way that they ran very

very very very different labs you know

Edison essentially ran a factory his he

he in many ways I think actually was

doing what unfortunately I think were

too often encouraging you know

entrepreneurs to do these days which is

just endlessly iterate right so he was

I’m gonna throw a thousand scientists at

it and they’re all gonna try slightly

different variations and then one of

those variations will work which was

very very different than Tesla Wright

who had very few economic resources

until he was very pointy right he was

like you know he was chose very

carefully what he was doing he pursued

in a sort of very narrow way very

specific theories and so you know

of those if you try to hit a target you

can aid or you can get a shotgun and

they’re both valid ways of doing the

thing you know I tend to I think the

sort of notion of the IDP is to like aim

your shotgun right meaning it do need to

run probably more than one pilot but you

shouldn’t just be aiming like only a

fool doesn’t aim right you have the

opportunity to him it takes only a very

short amount of time to spend some time

looking at the data you know and doing

the quantitative and qualitative things

that will allow you to derive insight

and so why wouldn’t you do that which

you know it just always seems sort of

weird to me that people have have you

know constructed a world where they’re

not yeah I appreciate that answer and

just bringing it back onto you topic

here we kind of went off the rails my

fault so behavioral statement you know

what you talk about this in the book

how important is a behavioral statement

to the the process of building a product

I mean I think it’s it’s absolutely

critical and and anything I think it’s

hard right because when you build a

process you’re like no every part of it

is essential and depending on what time

of day you catch me I might be like the

thing people screw up the most is blank

right I think even earlier in this

interview I said you know the problem is

that people don’t do the the piloting

the science part right but I do have to

say that like certainly it all begins

with with clearly articulating a

behavior and so we talk in the book

about writing be hero statement which

has you know motivation and a population

and limitations and a behavior and a way

to measure it but it really is of all of

that it’s articulating a behavior that

you want so so often people articulate

things that are not behaviors to me

right they’re like I want people to love

my product I’m like what does that mean

and they’re like well I want them to

love it and I’m like okay well but what

does that mean like how would you know a

person loved it

and they said yeah we’ll talk about it

okay I’m like okay great so your goal is

to get people to talk about your product

right is it is it okay if they talk

badly about your product no well I don’t

want that okay so great your behavior

you want people to talk positively about

your product right that’s a behavior we

could go design to create something that

people will talk positively about right

and we can remove the inhibiting

pressures you know we can make share

buttons and we can make it easier for

people to talk and you know all these

things it’s so interesting to me many of

the things that you would even use on

the promotion of this show are

psychological in nature right the very

notion of a share button is the removal

of an inhibiting pressure sharing the

share button does not make the content

any more interesting at all right

there’s no promoting pressure of the

share button the share button is simply

inhibiting pressure reduction right and

so consciously articulating I want

people to share it creates is what

creates the share button you can’t get

there unless you are consciously

articulate the behavior that you want

and so I think writing a good clean

behavioral statement is sort of the

fundamental part of the process and you

know it’s all downhill from there if you

know the behavior you want to create in

my experience having watched people do

this a lot the rest tends to sort of

fall in line right it becomes

increasingly obvious how to how to make

that happen if you can get to really

being really really really clear about

the one thing you actually want people

to do mmhmm yeah I mean the next thing

that you bring up is anchoring and

adjustment and you talk about how this

is you know key to developing writing a

behavioral statement that is in line

with sort of your vision what are those

two things if you could get into that

please yeah sure we could talk about the

anchoring adjustment factor so this is a

well-known effect in psychology the the

canonical example right is if I said you

know Xavier how tall is the is the is

the Empire State Building taller or

shorter than a hundred feet taller okay

great so how tall is the Empire State


do you think it’s like 13,000 something

feet but that’s probably too much right

I don’t know that’s gonna be your guest

okay that’s a good guess I like it right

and so then i go to i go to bizarro

xavier right I go to katana where you go

right to katana I say the same thing I

say okay well he’s the

our state building taller or shorter

than a million feet huh I just looked it

up by the way it’s 1,454 feet oh my god

some way off and we say you know it’s a

taller or shorter than a million feet

and and you would say shorter right

because it’s obviously not a million

feet and then I’d say well how tall is

is you know the sort of vampire State


and you might say 10,000 feet or a

hundred thousand feet right because

you’re adjusting down from that piece

and so in a behavioral statement one of

the reasons that we always articulate

the behavior as absolute so meaning I

want you know people to – you know a

hundred percent of the time to do this

thing not fifty percent of us I’m not

twenty five percent of time is because

the moment you actually you know sort of

go down from the absolute it leaves

wiggle room for well I you know I just

don’t need to get those people or I

don’t need to have that happen there

right and so when we express absolutes

we’re actually much more likely to hit

the target if we sort of you know we’re

so much more likely to get to the ninety

percent you know if we say a hundred

instead of fifty hmm and so that’s why

we write very concrete absolute

behavioral statements right when someone

wants to go somewhere they will take an

uber 100% of the time now obviously that

will never happen right people will walk

and take buses and subways and all sorts

of other things but by articulating it

in that way we we don’t artificially

limit ourselves from what we can achieve

hmm okay you you bring you know raising

your kid up in the book quite a bit and

you talked about using these different

types of pressure to change his behavior

so what what are pressure mapping and

validation one of those two different

things yeah sure so pressure mapping is

is the notion after we of sort of

formalizing the the insights that we

have into promoting inhibiting pressures

right and so if I you know want to get

my son to go to sleep right what are all

of the things that might make him less

likely to go to sleep like light and

sound right and what are all the things

that make him more likely to go to sleep

like being tired

right or you know being full and so you

know what you’re doing when you’re when

you’re writing out this sort of

promoting inhibiting pressures is you

know mapping giving yourself a map to to

sort of formalize those pieces so that

you then can build interventions against

it right because if I say you know the

next step that comes after that right is

if I can if I say well you know light

isn’t inhibiting pressure and sound is

an inhibiting pressure then it becomes

fairly obvious that what I need to do is

get blackout curtains and ana noise

machine right and so the intervention is

derived from the pressures sure sure

yeah and I’m glad you brought that up

that’s the that’s the next on my list of

questions but you you open the chapter

with a description of how creativity and

the pursue not novelty can derail the

process of intervention design how how

does that work yeah and so I think you

know we sort of talked about this

touched on it very briefly earlier right

one of the hobgoblins is that we have

have become vastly over anchored as a

society on the sort of like sexy

interesting creative approach to a thing

right but often you know sort of the

boring is very effective at changing

behavior right making it so that you

there’s nothing particularly sexy about

being able to get out of a car without

paying right

you know payment is not a sexy space and

yet payment innovation can very

powerfully change our behavior right and

so I think that when people pursue the

novel instead of the effective it can

often lead them to sort of you know fall

in love with ideas that are not very

good at actually changing behavior right

no sometimes novelty changes behavior

it’s not that you know novel is always

bad but novelty itself is very unlikely

to change behavior things don’t get

different just because the solution is

is you know sort of sexy and attractive

right things get different because they

do right that’s a beautiful thing about

science is that the goal and the measure

are the same right meaning if the

Gorillaz behavior change and what you

measure is behavior change

then you don’t have to worry how

attractive something is or rather like

you and I don’t have to get in intubate

whether a or B is better because there’s

a there’s an absolute ruler for doing

that right we can measure how much

better a or B is because when we’ve

articulated a behavior in a way of that

measuring that behavior then all we have

to do is deploy a and B and observe

which one creates the behavior right huh

I mean I find that fascinating I mean it

that’s that’s really curious it seems

like that works against the grain

because you know when I think about

designing something I’m thinking about

how to make it attractive and sexy I’m

not thinking about okay how can we make

this more boring right yeah I mean but

but one of the things that’s really

interesting is like not everything we

want attention on right we want to spend

attention very carefully and so you know

when we try to make everything

attractive and sexy like you know uber

is a fair example here since we’re using

it all night long like ubers a fair

example here because like uber works

really well when you don’t think about

uber at all right the perfect version

like let’s not run it uber killer let’s

say you said to me Mac okay let’s go

design the thing that’s better than uber

I would go build many many many

integrations so that you never had to

think about uber ever again instead of

taking out the app and telling it where

you are and where you want to go I would

you know I don’t know build it on top of

your calendar so that as soon as you

were done the ubirr just pulled up right

and it automatically knew where your

next thing was because it had predictive

AI and figured all that out for you and

so you never had to think about it right

which is really in some ways what uber

did right you know as a we talked about

how freaking travelers right so before

Ober I had to rent a car I had to have a

map right you know before smartphones I

don’t printed out a map right MapQuest

directions right I had to think oh I

just spend tremendous mental energy to

the to getting from A to B and now if

it’s a major city I could just kind of

assume that uber can get me from A to B

and so all I really need to know is

where I am and where I want to go right

and so the way to then iterate on that

and improve is to make it so that I

don’t even have to know where I am

I want to go all of that is taken care

of for me wow that’s fascinating I mean

it reminds me of I was reading about

Steve Jobs and part of the technique

that he used to create sort of more

mental energy so that he could create it

was just reducing the number of

decisions that he made in any given day

so which is why you see him wearing sort

of the same turtleneck every single day

is because he’s just removing that

energy expenditure you know that so his

brain doesn’t have to make that decision

anymore and so I mean it’s that part of

the process just eliminating that

inconvenience of having to think about

you know doing something well it’s

interesting right because sometimes

inconvenience you know causes us to have

epiphanies right and so I for example at

Microsoft when I worked there I was

there were people who were like oh we

should have free lunch like Google has

free lunch and I was like no because if

we do that we will never create any of

the things that make lunch easier right

because for other people right will

never create you know automatic payment

if you’ve never experienced the pain of

paying you never create automatic

payment right you have to experience

unpleasantness in their world but that

said you know I do think and and you

know Steve Jobs was was one practitioner

of this but I think there been many

right you know Obama got rid of blue

suits right so that he didn’t have to

tell the difference between black and

blue which can be quite hard to do and

suiting like there are many examples of

people doing this I for example I don’t

wear the same thing every day I just

thought I I went a step farther I just

automatically on eBay that just buys

like John Varvatos 40-hour Blazers below

a certain price point well they just my

computer buys them and puts them in my

closet and presto

right like I wear the same thing every

day it’s not exactly the same thing but

it was all bought by a computer for me

right I often think about there’s a the

movie training day and there’s a great

scene where Ethan Hawke’s character who

you know has been sort of tricked into

getting high by buttons on Washington

yeah yeah so denzel sort of tricks me to

getting high and they go to visit this

older cop right and you know ethan hawke

sort of slumped in a chair

kind of

and Denzel and the older copper talking

kind of about the secret of the streets

and sort of hi Ethan pipes like I know

the streets and you know

Denzel yeah shut up man and but the

older cops like an island I’m talking

and and what he says is you know the

secret is to control your smiles and

cries control your smiles and cries and

that I always think has had a lot of

effect on me I was very interested in

you know the sort of recipe for

happiness is controlling what things you

allow to make you happy or unhappy right

you have some control over that right

the beautiful thing I was talking to a

friend of mine yesterday who happens to

run international business development

for Conde Nast and therefore VOC and so

he’s very fashionable and we were

talking about my sort of automating my

clothing I said one of the things that

is beautiful about it is if the guy and

we were we were sitting in a hotel bar I

said if the guy next to me spills his

drink all over this you know he is

brightly colored drink all over this all

over this jacket and stains it that’s

okay because it only cost me twenty

dollars and it was already reset you

know like it was reused when I got it

right meaning because it was clothing

yeah and so I don’t have a negative

environmental impact if I literally

throw it away and I have a very small I

cannot make impact on myself whereas if

this was I shall repay this blazer that

I bought do for $1000 sure right now I

have to take it to the dry cleaners

which is terrible for the environment I

have to feel bad for the rest of my day

I gotta get a fight with this guy in a

bar he feels bad I feel bad I lost a

bunch of money I gotta take it to a

dragn it’s like it’s a negative

experience all around right I have the

ability to control those things that are

brought to me and I’m not suggesting

that you shouldn’t care about anything I

think people sometimes hear this story

and what they take from that is well no

one should care about their clothes no

what I’m saying is if clothes are

incredibly important to you you should

make that a focal point of your life

spend your time and your money and your

mental energy there I think that’s

important but if they’re not don’t my

you know the Contra example is I built

every desktop computer I’ve owned since

I was you know 15 years old and I would

never let someone else build my computer

I like that process I I do sweat that I

do sweat it I spend way too much money

it you know I do get sad when it breaks

right like I I do sweat those things

because it gives me pleasure the act of

doing that is part of my animus and so

you know I think thinking carefully

about what you you know what you want to

allow to have impact in your life is

really critical and important I want my

kid to be able to both make me

incredibly happy and incredibly sad yeah

and that’s that’s a desirable end State

for me I mean it makes a lot of sense it

fits we’re running short on time so I

apologize if I’m speeding through these

priming moderation mediation you know

you get into this in your book so you

know what what do each of these mean you

don’t have to rush but what do these

mean and and what you know what is

required of us to sort of understand

them and that’s a really hard one to

explain these shortly so probably so

mediation moderation are statistical

terms for how you know sort of some

mathematical relationships between

variables work but basically the notion

here is that what matters for behavioral

change is sometimes you you will have to

create new pathways right you can create

a direct connection between for example

and identity in a behavior and sometimes

you have to go through another third

point in between right so meaning you

know the identity is correlated with

with you know the third point and the

behavior is correlated with the third

point and so there is a connection

between the identity and the behavior

but only as a monotheist it’s moderated

through through this third point and so

understanding the the causal

relationships versus the correlational

relationships between things can help

you build better things hmm okay okay

how important is the ethical check when

we’re talking about IDP okay so the

ethical check is is absolutely vital

right so as you noted in the book there

is a chapter on ethics I believe very

strongly that behavioral science

behavioral science is is morally

agnostic right the ability to change

behaviors is not good or bad right so

people use

I haven’t get it getting you know sort

of interviewed and people are like well

you’re manipulating people and I’m like

well manipulation is about like

manipulation itself like is is agnostic

right for example when I say my son

manipulates those Legos he’s not like

morally offending the Legos right it’s

just literally he’s moving them that’s

what manipulation means and so behavior

science itself is agnostic instead what

is key is how you use it and you know as

I frequently point out to people like

you don’t want to get on my bad side

right like if you go to war you don’t

want to be on the other side of me and

so cuz I’ve been doing this a really

long time and so if what you do is read

my book and use it to you know sell

sugar water to kids hmm I can’t stop you

from doing that but I can fight you and

I will and so you know the ethical to

chuck is about making sure that when we

change behavior we change it in a way

that someone if you made obvious the

behavior you know it doesn’t require

that you always make obvious the

behavior change it what it requires is

that if you did make obvious that

behavior change the person would agree

to it and if you I think if you made

obvious to someone you know the

devastating effects of selling sugar

what are the kids they would not agree

to it and thus that is not a an ethical

use of behavior okay I’m not sure if you

mentioned I wanted you to cover this the

the different gaps in tension action gap

and the intention goal gap sure yeah so

let’s use the flu shot as a really great

example so the intention action gap is

what we usually talk about in social

psychology I mean to go to the gym I

don’t go to the gym man right like you

know there I have the intention of doing

something but I don’t actually do it but

there is another kind of gap that we

don’t often look at that is actually

incredibly important which is you know

sort of the the you know action outcome

gap so where I don’t I never had the

intention of doing things in the thing

in the first place despite the fact that

I wanted that outcome right so with a

flu shot there’s a difference between i

man I meant to get a flu shot but I just

didn’t get a flu shot right I was busy

or they were out of it when I got there

or I had to pay money that I wasn’t

acting right those are all you know a

sort of intention action gaps right

intended I didn’t need you but there are

also people who don’t want to get the

flu but have no intention of getting the

flu shot right an intention outcome

Gavin and and that’s a huge problem

right and too often we assume things our

intention in action gaps right everyone

wants to get the flu shot and they just

don’t do it though some people genuinely

have no intention of doing it but they

don’t want to get the flu and so that’s

an opportunity to help change their

behavior and help them recognize you

know where the behaviors that they have

aren’t gonna get them where they want to

go hmm okay okay so you know after the

ethical check comes the testing period

where you know how can you describe what

a pilot is and you know how it would

vary in size and scope yeah so so we

talked about pilot testing scale right

so piloting is you know running very

very small and you’re just trying to see

if there’s anything even there right is

this a valid route to changing a

behavior so you’re still measuring

behavior change you’re probably not

going to get statistical significance

you know the the sort of rule of thumb

sometimes that I always you know sort of

use and it changes a lot depending what

the behavior is and so I don’t want to

get people to get over lang chord on

this but you know a pilot is 20 people a

test is 200 people you know a scale is

two million people right and the idea is

you know you try lots of things on 20

people you relatively fewer on 200

people and then very few one on two

million people and so but the purpose of

pilot so people often are tempted to

skip out on that step right because you

know they want to rush to the two

million and and many things are never

tested at all I just rolled out to the

two million and and I think you will

learn really interesting things from

piloting right and I think a lot of harm

could be avoided if we first make sure

that things actually create the behavior

we want okay so getting to the the final

stages of IDP which you talked about

something called the Parana effect what

is yeah what is that how does it relate

to sort of the affective cognitive

attention what is the Parana effect yeah

so the Parana effect is this

this sort of notion accorded by a

psychologist I anticipated up all of the

interventions often they would they

would equal more than 100 percent right

so imagine I have three different

interventions and intervention a is

about fifty percent effective at getting

people to do something and intervention

P is about forty percent effective at

getting people to do something the

intervention C is about thirty percent

effective at doing something well math

you know in our minds were like a plus B

plus B forty percent plus you know fifty

percent plus forty percent plus thirty

percent one hundred twenty percent right

it should make everybody do the thing

but in reality if I deploy ABC you’ll

get to fifty percent and the reason is

that you know a was clear the best

intervention but you know a plus B you

know they cannibalize each other a

little bit that’s where we get the

Parana they you know sort of swim around

and eat each other and so when we talk

about something of like you know mental

attention you know I could deploy all

the anti-smoking things I want but

they’re not gonna get me to 100%

anti-smoking because they sort of

compete with each other for your

attention and sometimes sometimes less

is more

that’s why pilot testing and scaling is

so important right is because you know I

I’m not just trying to find something

that works I’ve tried to find something

that works given all of the other things

that are also currently working right

because very often you know once you

deploy it you’ll find that you know the

sort of juice is worth the squeeze yeah

it incrementally makes it slightly

better but not the massive thing that

you saw in sort of scaling very sort of

in piloting and so I think that’s why

you know you really need to manage your

portfolio of intervention as well

because you know a company isn’t one

intervention it’s thousands of

interventions it’s a million tiny

decisions that we make and can change

and they all compete with each other and

so we need to to view them and practice

them in harmony even if we sort of test

them in isolation

so I mean would there be one part of

this process that is more important than

the other or is the whole process sort

of key here you know I would say I’ll

answer that I’ll answer that in the

framework of the book itself right

so meaning if what we wanted if the

intention of the book is to get people

to you know create things that change

behavior the all of the things in the

book are important interventions towards

doing that but by far the single thing

that will have the most effect is

getting people to write a behavioral

statement consciously articulate the

behavior you are in fact trying to

change you know we could take this show

for a second right like have you

actually really thought down sat down

Savior and thought about okay when

someone listens to my show what do I

want them to do differently hmm right

this interview will be a failure if

people walk away from it and they don’t

behave differently hmm right and so you

know everything else sort of falls away

in comparison to the critical critical

point of spending time articulating what

we want people to do yeah I love that I

wholly agree on that point um you know I

I know Matt I know that there are you

know startup founders that follow you

and it you know it almost seems like

some of these kids are kind of looking

for this secret code that’s hidden

somewhere and it’s gonna solve this

formula of how to make them their

company succeed maybe but I mean do you

do you have any advice for them do you

any and we’re about to we’re about to

end the show and is there anything that

you want to touch on that we didn’t

cover maybe man what would I share with

them we talked a little bit about it but

I think I’ll go and sort of close to

where we started which is the beautiful

and powerful thing about behavior change

in the focus on behavior changes that it

levels the playing field right in a

world where we don’t focus on behavior

change basically whoever has the biggest

ad budget wins right and and you can

pick whatever your version of ad budget

is most followers on Twitter you know

knows natural beauty or biggest boobs or

I don’t care read and like pick

your thing right

whatever raw natural resource draws


they win and I’m not cool I’m not

particularly physically attractive you

know I’m a very rural part of the

country I’m a first-generation college

kid power there is immense power in in

and an egalitarian power in behavior

change and so if I you know there was

something that the young entrepreneurs

of the world you know took away from

this I I what I would hope it would be

is that they can have power in the world

they can create change and that can be

big change small change it be whatever

kind of change they want to create if

they are you know thoughtful about what

is the impact that they want to have

right and so you know I set out to write

this book what I decided was that what I

wanted my legacy to be was empowering

people to create behavior change and so

I got very very focused on doing the

things I needed to do to make it

possible for other people to to create

behavior change and I think whoever you

are out there whoever needs to hear this

you know you have the power to change

behavior your own and others and I hope

you use that wisely and thoughtfully and

and not only ethically but also in a way

that brings you a satisfactory and and

sort of lovely life and hopefully in a

way that makes the world a better place

right yeah 100% I mean as I said you

know I think you are free to use it

however you want but it is always a

useful thing to say if I do this who

will I put on the other side of the

table from me you know there’s the old

the old ethical check that everyone uses

which is I would I be ashamed to tell my

mother about this right I think that

that you know thinking really

thoughtfully about who am i aligning

myself against and with particularly in

this time at least in the US where you

know we are I don’t know that I think

that I agree that we’re in more divided

country than we’ve ever been before

although people like to say that but I

think we people are displaying their


you know in very obvious and visible

ways in a way that you know you have to

be very thoughtful about about what

you’re gonna create in the world now

more than ever it is so important what

you’re gonna create a new for and and I

hope you use that thoughtfully but but

you know it’s been a lot of fun to talk

to the Savior and I appreciate you

taking the time and fighting me on what

do you want to talk about that we didn’t

get to talk about I mean I think we

covered you know pretty much every want

everything that I wanted to touch on in

this conversation I really enjoyed it as

well you know it kind of flew by how do

I see your last name

because you you didn’t it’s perfectly

okay wonderfully I first of all I don’t

really know how to say it it’s French

Belgian and you know is funny I gave a

talk at the French Embassy maybe a year

or so ago ironically actually the very

night I found out that the the the that

I was offered the book deal they like

called me in the middle of the party and

said you know we want to offer you this

thing you should check your email

amazing but it was an amazing party

because everyone said my last name

perfectly and beautiful right like you

know everywhere I go no one really knows

how to say it including me and then

there’s this room full of people who are

like oh well yeah it’s so nice to meet

you I’m like oh that’s amazing

nobody’s asking it’s beautiful but it so

you know Americans mostly say it Wohlers

I’m sure it’s something beautiful in

French like wow yeah or something like I

don’t know so you know that guy that guy

usually worked that guy over there the

behavioral science guy you know

hilarious man it’s really fun to talk to

you Matt where do people find your work

if they don’t know about you website

yeah everything is just my name it’s

Matt Waller calm and I met while I on

Twitter and all those sorts of things

and and you know one of the things that

is a little bit different about me is I

I don’t believe in double opt-in intros

or any of those sorts of things which

easy sort of insist on these days I try

and keep an open calendar and so there

is a link on my website on LinkedIn

other places where if you feel like you

need to talk to me you can book a

30-minute slot it’s free I’m happy to

talk to you you know it sometimes it’s

booked six months in advance so you may

have to be a little patient but but you

know you can you can

my time and I will find time whatever it

is you’re struggling with whatever you

know help you need please use one of

those channels whether it’s booking a

call or Twitter or sending me an email

or whatever it is to ask for that help I

think you know underrepresented folks

people from backgrounds that that aren’t

necessarily privileged they don’t learn

to ask for help because you know it’s a

you know totally rational way by the way

I don’t think it’s a rational actor

problem they don’t ask for help because

so often they have not gotten it or no

they won’t get it but the problem is as

you grow in power you necessarily need

help from other people and so you know I

invite you to take this opportunity that

if you do need help you know as Xavier

asked me ask someone for the help that

you need

amazing I love that Matt what a pleasure

to just hang out with you and talk about

this it it was really fun and that’s

such a huge service that you’re offering

to people guys we’re gonna get out of

here but this what an amazing interview

my guest

Matt Wohlers and the book is called

start at the end how to build products

that create change thank you guys so

much for listening if you made it this

far and make sure you click like and

subscribe to the show if you’re

listening to this on YouTube if you’re

listening on the podcast please get over

to iTunes leave us a review good or bad

we really learned from those I really

learned from them as well so yeah thank

you so much for being here and next week

we have dr. Bruce Lipton I’ve been

sending him emails for six years so it’s

gonna be a really good show that’s on

Tuesday next week thank you guys so much

for being here

good night

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