The Human Experience
Transcript for Episode 139 – A Drink With Dr. Dennis Mckenna – Part 2
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tonight we’re gonna be continuing our
series called
a drink with dr. Dennis McKenna dennis
is a good friend of the show he’s been
on the show many times I’ve known Dennis
for many years so sit back grab a drink
maybe a smoke enjoy this conversation
the human experiences in session
my name is Xavier katana my guest for
this evening is dr. Dennis McKenna
dr. Dennis McKenna is an ethnic
ecologist who has studied plant
hallucinogens for over 40 years he is
the author of many scientific papers and
co-author with his brother Terence
Mckenna he holds a doctorate from the
University of British Columbia
he received postdoctoral research
fellowships in the laboratory of
clinical pharmacology National Institute
of Mental Health and in the department
of neurology Stanford University School
of Medicine he’s the founding board
member of the after research institute a
nonprofit organization focused on the
investigation of the potential therapy
therapy utak uses of psychedelic
medicines Dennis it’s a pleasure my
friend welcome
back to a Jaques it’s so good to have
you back here it’s a pleasure to be back
same here
how are you I’m doing well so we’re do
we’re doing this we’re doing this drink
with dr. Dennis McCann on a thing again
what do you what are you drinking over
there I grab some white wine available
okay I’m drinking some red wine so we’re
set with diets
you’ve been you’ve been pretty busy
these days I mean I talk to you I talk
to you about a week ago and you were
down in in Peru I think right that’s
right yes we just finished up two
retreats down there that’ll be the third
retreat of this year that we’ve done and
yeah so it’s keeping me busy and and
then we have another one coming up in
November which I think will be a very
interesting retreat not like anything
we’ve done before we’re going to have my
friend Alexandra Thomas joining us he is
a specialist in sound sound therapy
sound residents the use of sound and
ceremonial space and probably the
world’s expert on just about every
aspect of sound that you can imagine
I’ve had experience all sessions with
him many occasions and he really knows
how to use Sonics and residents in
conjunction with altered states to
produce rather amazing experience
programs I guess you can say that many
people resonate with I couldn’t resist
the pun but anyway if you look at my
Twitter feed or my Facebook page you can
find information about it or you can
send an inquiry to events at McKenna dot
Academy okay getting that out right away
I mean since you mentioned it tell us
about a little bit more
the Academy because this is something
that something new that you’re doing it
you’re calling it the the cattle a
catalytic Nexus for the transformation
of global consciousness Wow close we’re
calling it we’re calling it’s the
McKenna Academy of natural philosophy
right and it’s going to have its
operations mostly focused in South
America but not confined to that and I
call it a catalytic Nexus for the
transformation of global consciousness
in the sense that the programs of the
Academy and our our goal beyond just
psychedelic retreats or ayahuasca
retreat although we certainly do that
but we do we’re offering a variety of
educational programs even courses other
types of of programs to help people
educate themselves or re-educate
themselves about their relationship to
nature which is something that we really
need to be thinking about because we’re
all aware of the crisis that we face so
my idea with the Academy is I guess I’m
basically a back into mission at heart
you know and I love teaching and I love
sharing information I love bringing
brilliant minds to a place where they
can share their wisdom and ideas and
that’s what you do with an academy right
so I this will be our first official
event sponsored by the Academy this one
in November and I’m excited about it
Alexander is an amazing character a
teacher of mine for many years and he
has so much wisdom and so much knowledge
to impart I think it’s gonna be a really
stimulating 10 days and you’re designing
it as a sort of modern-day mystery
school and I mean you’ve been doing this
yourself for you know what like 40 years
or more so and you’ve been you know now
it seems like you’re
to take the charge on and take the lead
on this by witness in this institution
yeah exactly
many I mean I have been doing retreats
in the Sacred Valley since basically
about 2012 and as we’ve done those the
concept has evolved so you know and and
I as you know I’ve been involved with
ayahuasca and other psychedelics for as
you say more than 40 years but it’s only
in the last sense since 2012 a little
bit before that but I’ve been doing
regular retreats in the Sacred Valley
and this time we decided to take a
slightly different direction and did not
only include you know the the medicine
experiences but also provide a context
where people can appreciate the pre
incan culture and their understanding of
sound of altered states we have one of
our faculty members of their sub coming
retreat is a guide who we work with in
our in our ayahuasca retreats who has
made this quite an in-depth study of all
this and kind of the esoteric energies
and technologies that were available to
the Incas and the predecessors of the
Incas and a lot of that had to do with
the use of sonic energy you know sound
energy I mean sound basically but turns
out there’s a lot more to sound than you
might think no I agree with that I mean
me yeah we’ve had a bunch of authors
recently on that and we’ve been
exploring the history of psychedelic
usage through ancient times it turns out
you know Plato was on the stuff Socrates
like a lot of the modern philosophy that
we you know kind of operate on today and
are learning from today was influenced
by psychedelics and if you look at
someone like Graham Hancock he talks
about how you know
or DMT was the reason that these
cultures were sort of you know
collecting and moving around to
different parts of the earth so and this
has been imbibed into ingrained into our
culture for thousands and thousands of
years yes yes yeah good that you
mentioned Graham I have just finished
his latest book I mean I am a total fan
of Graham’s work yeah and his latest
book America before have you read it
yeah I got through it yeah I mean okay
so long read it’s like a 500 page book
but it’s worth it because he really
study it’s definitely worth it he brings
more documentation in together in this
book than he has with any of the
previous ones so he builds a very solid
case and the case you know the picture
that it gives us of the ancient past is
nothing like conventional the
conventional view of history or
archeology I mean for one thing it goes
back and now you know these are not
crazy numbers these are well-documented
numbers in the new world humans arrived
in the new world at least a hundred and
thirty thousand years ago probably much
earlier and so that just completely
overturns you know the conventional view
of when hominids they weren’t even you
know when hominids when humans made it
to the New World
and and indicates that you know they
probably didn’t come over the Land
Bridge initial they actually probably
crossed the ocean which is you know I
mean it just vastly exceeds anything we
thought that such such an ancient racist
would be able to do so so it’s very
interesting to his theory that there was
a more or less advanced like not not
computers and lays
but more like an 18th century level of
civilization these people had you know
ocean-going ships basically and they had
you know writing they were cartographers
than they actually generated maps of
parts of the world that for years were
not even known you know to the Western
world not admitted at that time so em
you’ve read the book so you don’t I mean
why Dennis do you think then you know
for us publicly why’s the history of
this been hidden why are psychedelics
namely you know plant medicines so
demonized in in mainstream culture or
mainstream media I mean the 1990s you
got that just say no campaign were Nancy
Reagan doing her whole speech mean at
the war on drugs why why suppress this
technology that’s been around for so
long well I think it’s I think it’s
numerous numerous factors being for one
thing you know psychedelics are
dangerous because they not because
they’re dangerous substances but because
they make you have dangerous ideas you
know unorthodox ideas and the powers the
be are never receptive to that you know
they don’t really want people to make
their own discoveries don’t think for
themselves because they have they have
an agenda
you’re supposed to aspect except a
certain societal or religious or other
you know sets of dogma and if you insist
on thinking for yourself and push back
against the conventional wisdom and
something like Graham’s work does you
know and it’s very well done it’s very
well documented so you can’t you know
you can’t really fault it in terms of
being sloppy scholarship or anything
like that why are people so threatened
by it I’m not sure it’s because there’s
a certain narrative you know that we’ve
accepted
for a long time for instance the idea
that you know humans originated in
Africa they moved out of Africa thence
into Europe and Asia the possibility
that they might have reached the the
so-called new world much earlier than
anyone imagined I don’t know why people
are threatened by it I mean I I think
that science you know if it purports to
call itself a science should be looking
for the truth you know but I think
something that that you know Graham’s
work and the fact that he has been so
denounced by the so-called archeological
community of it as he makes very clear
it’s because it’s not a science anymore
you know it’s a cult it’s become a set
of accepted doctrines and views of
ancient history that you know that are
not to be challenged and so he comes
along and challenges it and he he makes
a lot of people mad but I think I think
anyone who’s curious you know and who
was really honest can’t review what
Graham has written can’t look at that in
an objective way of say wait a minute
you know the picture that we thought we
had of the ancient past it just does not
fit right these new facts that have come
to light yeah you know and to me that’s
exciting
but I mean I’m not a dog but just you
know I’m not invested it in some set of
dogma and and you know academics is you
know unfortunately I mean it’s a
notoriously sort of hidebound
institution it’s not it’s not generally
open to new ideas because of threats
threatens the status quo have you ever
have you ever had your tenure threatened
with any of your work well threatened
good what sales I mean I don’t know has
has anyone has it have you ever received
pushback from you know exploring
psychedelics and plants in the way that
you do
not really that’s a good yeah it’s been
surprising I mean I I’ve not gotten you
know death threats or anything like them
a lot of people disagree with me sure
you know they’re they’re free to do that
that’s what you know what free and fair
dialogue is about I in fact you know my
whole shtick is don’t believe me you
know I mean and not being asked to be
I’m not asking to be believed
I’m asking or suggesting people should
think for themselves you know and they
should use these god-given parades that
we have to you know figure it out come
to your own conclusions that’s the one
thing that’s quite you know that’s quite
attractive and beautiful about
psychedelics because you know you you
don’t have to accept any set of dogma
you don’t have to have faith you can
just have the experience you know it
does not take faith or belief to benefit
from psychedelics what it takes is
courage you know and if you have the
courage to to smoke the pipe or drink
the cup or whatever it is you do and
actually trust yourself enough to have
that experience then you can decide for
yourself what it means
hmm you know and that’s important thing
and any spout powerful spiritual
technology there are legions of people
who are ready to tell you what it’s
supposed to mean you know and how you’re
supposed to think about it what I like
about psychedelics is it gives you the
opportunity I mean you can listen to
those people there are lots of people
ready to tell you how to interpret this
and so on but in the end of the day it’s
the encounter between you and the
medicine and whatever the medicine
renders accessible to you and so you
know it throws you back on itself on it
on yourself and it basically throws down
a challenge like here’s something that’s
going to completely blow your life
that’s going to completely you know
disrupt your what your reference frame
right and what you thought you know and
it’s your job to make of it what you
will
you know interpret it according to what
they don’t trust yourself enough to to
interpret it for yourself you know you
can benefit from reading about other
people’s experiences you can benefit
from people’s you know thoughts about
you know what it what it’s really about
and so on but at the end of the day you
have to you know you just have to draw
your own conclusions absolutely that’s
yeah that’s it let’s talk a little bit
about what occurs in the brain when a
substance like DMT or psilocybin or
those you know for compounds LSD I boga
what’s happening in the brain as far as
neural receptors and neurogenesis
because I think in the 90s there was
this idea that the brain was a sort of
you know like closed system like once
you once you’ve burned off this gray
matter once you burned off brain cells
they never regroup back and that was it
you know lowered your IQ you were just
dumb for doing this you know and then in
I’m not sure what year was the early
2000 maybe 2004 neurogenesis the idea
neuroplasticity came out where this
understanding of the brain and and its
flexibility and I mean we really don’t
know much about the brain at all
so you know why are these compounds you
know namely DMT psilocybin right what
impacts are they having on the brain why
are they so crucial to you know mystical
experiences and and learning and and
evolution we’re gonna be here all night
you know what you’re talking about
basically the calm house that you named
EMTs
saipin mescaline LSD ayahuasca these
things are that what we think it was the
classical psychedelics right there were
there plenty of psychoactive substances
plants and so on
that are psychoactive and some will
induce profoundly altered states of
consciousness but they are strictly
speaking in the pharmacological sense
they’re not psychedelics and I kind of
adhere to a almost a reductionist
definition of psychedelics because just
as an arbitrary thing under my
definition the definition of a lot of
people and the definition that I like
but simply because it kind of defines it
is the true psychedelics the classic
psychedelics are what they call 5ht to a
agonist right hmm
so what’s v HT v HT is my hydroxy trip
to me that’s serotonin right one of the
neurotransmitters so one important
neurotransmitter in mediated states of
consciousness so you could call them the
serotonin 2a receptor zuv not 2a
receptors are the target for these
classic psychedelics there are about 14
or 15 different kinds of serotonin
receptors they have numerous functions
all over the body there’s more serotonin
receptors in the gut than in the brain
but the 2a receptors appear to be those
receptors that are critical to the
action of psychedelics of having these
mystical experiences and all that goes
with that
you know this neurogenesis phenomenon
this sort of you know the the altered
state itself the psychedelic experience
itself rearranges connections in the
brain that neural plasticity thing that
you’re talking about and it creates new
connections and probably does in fact
induce neurogenesis the growth of
new neurons right now oh as you say a
few years ago we thought that was
deficit forbidden right like it just
didn’t happen once you had given
complement of neurons at Birth you only
lost neurons after that it was a long
slow you know from birth to death
a long slow state of neural degeneration
that’s not the current picture at all
the brain is enormous ly adaptive it’s
plastic and it responds to stimuli from
what’s and from its environment and it
can actually change its structure can
change its wiring can change a lot of
things about how it operates and that’s
in relation to environmental clears you
know and and and if you if you reflect a
moment you know you think you know it’s
like it’s obvious right how could it be
otherwise you know and and these these
models that we created just overlooked
something very important which is that
you know especially in primates
especially in hominids with our you know
big brains I mean it is a lot it is
because of our enormous brains of the
adaptability that that brings about that
we are such a successful species mm-hmm
so okay so you know when we’re defining
intelligence I mean how how are we
looking at you know what is Intel do we
mean when we talk about intelligence or
weed because I mean because no pre
hominids I mean were they capable of you
know learning and reasoning and you know
are we as well our plants intelligent I
mean there’s I mean there’s something
happening there and I’m trying to
understand better what that means what
that relationship is like why drinking a
cup of pasta tea is opening you know
this this mystical experience for me and
helping me on my journey through you
know through life
well because it happens to activate
those receptors the that network of
serotonin 2a receptor z’ of other
receptors it’s you know nothing in the
brain happens in isolation but it
happens to activate that that network
that mediates this kind of experience
you know I mean that’s really all it is
and never you know a more more maybe
important question is why what is the
value of mystical experience to our
existence to our consciousness to our
adaptation to the environment you know
and that’s a deeper question and I don’t
know that anyone knows the answer but
what we can say is that you know that
the notion that essentially that the
that the universe is full of mystery and
meaning I mean that that’s that’s the
you know that that’s the consequence of
these mystical experiences you know if
you look at the data if you look at
people in the psilocybin studies who
have with terminal cancer for example
they take psilocybin and it completely
reframes their reference frame you know
many of these people are terrified of
dying because in fact they are dying and
you know that’s all they can think about
but then they with the psilocybin as an
aid to sort of step outside their
reference frame and examine their
existential situation they come away
with a tremendously beneficial sort of
re understanding of their situation
which can easily be put in many of them
say well I was terrified of dying but
guess what I’m alive now you know and
I’m I’m gonna focus on that going
forward the fact that I am Alive now in
the moment everybody dies sooner or
later we all have to face that what use
does it do to
just focus on that and get all depressed
about it better to focus on the fact
that you’re alive now you know and
you’re with your loved ones and you’re
more or less functional but definitely
you know on the on the way out but we it
helps to come to terms with that so I
think that I think and what keeps coming
up again and again in these studies to
kind of get back to what you were saying
is the term meaningful people say this
was the most meaningful experience of my
life or the fifth among the top five
most meaningful experience of my life
what is so valuable what’s so important
about having meaningful experiences
right I mean why should we even care
like you know who cares why should we
care
well but obviously we do I mean our
whole lives you know most of our lives
are you know routine I mean it’s not
that they’re not enjoyable and that sort
of thing but they’re not these profound
spiritual revelations most of the time
they’re more or less routine people long
for something beyond that I think they
long for reassurance that you know we
are not the limited beings that we
appear to be and the psychedelic
experience or spontaneous mystical
experience for that matter you know
brings it to people and it brings people
of experience of something beyond
themselves and so it’s meaningful it’s
because I think it’s reassuring doesn’t
even matter if it’s true
you know it I mean it doesn’t it doesn’t
but you know I mean it’s true in the you
experience you know and I think you I
think it’s safe I think it’s not
inaccurate to say that anything you
experience is true because you
experience it to the extent that it’s an
experience whether it has an objective
reality well then we don’t know you know
but you know people have these
experience
and they are personally meaningful for
them and somehow we really value that
you know we in fact you know many people
with the mystical inclination they spend
years trying to you know achieve that
kind of a reward so it’s interesting
that you know pretty much any schmuck
can have this kind of experience you
know 25 milligrams of psilocybin and the
right sentence setting and you’re pretty
much there you know if and and so people
say well that’s not that’s not a real
mystical experience you know because you
took drugs right you took a drug and so
it can’t be genuine I’m here to tell you
that every state of consciousness is
reflected by a neurochemical set of a
neurochemical brain state sure we’re on
drugs were made out of drugs and we’re
on drugs all the time any kind of
experience that we have is a
drug-induced experience you know because
our brains are engines that run on
neurotransmitters neurotransmitters or
drugs you know so this idea that well
it’s not a real experience because you
took a drug III don’t buy it if you
experienced it it’s real if it’s
meaningful who’s gonna tell you that
it’s not meaningful that’s for you to
decide that’s your judgment it’s not for
anybody to tell you what that it wasn’t
meaningful you can say well gee you felt
pretty meaningful to me that’s all that
matters but there’s there’s something
that Graham said when he was on the show
that that really struck me is you know
when you’re when you’re in the Amazon
there’s you know what a hundred thousand
plus species of plants and to realize
that there are these two plants that
when combined together you know create
this brew that it creates this
experience it indicates that there was a
science that was active you know in this
ancient period a long time ago so
awareness or cognition of how this could
affect you know us what do you make of
that I mean how how does that fit into
the larger perspective of where we are
now well I think I think it’s easy to
look at this in a simplistic way you
know and it’s it’s not quite the way you
described it in the first place you know
in in the 80,000 or so species that that
we think are in the Amazon okay you know
out of a total of about 250 260 thousand
species of plants worldwide I think in
the 80 in the Amazon has about a third
of them maybe eighty eighty-five
thousand species the fact is that most
of these plants are full of biodynamic
compounds and DMT right is is the one
that gives ayahuasca a psychedelic kick
there are certain admixture plants that
are prepared with ayahuasca and the
other the the vine as you know isn’t
monoamine oxidase inhibitor that
prevents the the breakdown of DMT and
the gut makes it orally active right hmm
many many plants contain DMT it is not a
rare compound you know I mean it’s not
rare in the Amazon it’s not rare
anywhere it’s again indigenous in the
human body
right if said doggedness in the human
body that’s right that’s right it’s it
is in fact a neurotransmitter in the
human body you know we don’t understand
its function as well as something like
serotonin but it appears that it is a
neurotransmitter and because DMT is only
two steps away from tryptophan or eye
tryptophan is an amino acid universally
of all organisms it’s one of the twenty
that go into proteins two trivial
enzymatic steps will convert tryptophan
to DMT
so it’s very very common in plants you
know and animals and fungi probably and
you know I mean it’s certainly fungi
have their own tryptamine derivatives
like like the psilocybin so it’s common
and there are many plants that
conceivably could have been used to make
ayahuasca and in fact people do they
make they make analogs of ayahuasca
because the other component of the brew
is the vine which contains the
beta-carbolines that do the MA
elimination but again beta-carboline z’
they’re not as abundant in nature as DMT
but they’re certainly not that rare
either so potentially I ayahuasca or
ayahuasca ad logs could have been made
from completely different plants and you
in fact do that you can do that and with
a little knowledge of botany and what we
know now a little bit of knowledge of
chemistry and what’s been published you
know you can expect to be quite
successful you can make an ayahuasca
analogue that will be every bit as
active as ayahuasca but how did this
comeback
how did this come about back in the day
well most likely it just came about
through trial and error experimentation
you know but not random not necessarily
random experimentation when we did this
conference this ESP d50 conference a
couple of years ago there was an
archaeologist ethno botanist there mint
manuel torres who gave an excellent talk
about the probable origins of ayahuasca
and he was talking about a particular
area in the in where Colombia Venezuela
and Peru come together the northern
walkways region and there was a very
active chicha technology making beers
of various kinds of beers or fermented
beverages that you make roots or usually
from roots like manioc you can make him
fruit sometimes these are just basically
a fermentation technology right but the
the people that made the these teaches
they were curious and they were in a you
know in an environment where you know
there were these other plants some of
them have medicinal uses including
ayahuasca I almost get the vine was used
by itself you know not as part of a
hallucinogenic brew but probably as
treatment for for parasites or something
like that but you know human beings have
gotten to where we have with with
respect to plants on the way that we
exploit plants because we’re curious you
know and you know you can see much the
same kind of curiosity and operate in
operation that in a modern-day craft
brewer you know a craft brewer is always
looking for new stuff new ingredients to
put it is his beers right to make them
taste different or to make something
that the other guy doesn’t have and
there’s innovation that goes on maybe if
I put some of this in it’ll make it
taste different give it a different
effect Manolo makes the point that there
was a lot of that going on in this area
at that time and he thinks that you know
it it that ayahuasca really sort of
appeared out of that you know that
atmosphere of experimentation just
trying out different combinations and
seeing how it was and then at some point
they tried the right combination and you
know they got they got their minds blown
you know so so that was a successful
experiment and yeah
hmm so I think maybe that’s how it how
it how it might have take it off is is
there a specific role that has been
identified for the existence of DMT in
humans and nature it seems kind of like
it’s a bit elusive as to why you know it
even exists man is there I mean I’m
gonna get a little goo here about this
but I mean it does it is it a molecule
that connects us into some hyper
dimension some you next level of reality
perhaps you know we don’t see every
sorry I was pulling up the the text to
Manolos talked here which which is worth
looking at and I’m going to I’m gonna
paste it into our text box here people
couldn’t look at this link okay that’s
some think about if we all like you can
watch Manolos talk at the ESP D
conference oh well we’re 40 there okay
okay sorry no problem
distracted so so the question is what is
what does it mean the no the it seems
like the role of DMT in humans in the
role of DMT in humans in nature can you
hear me Dennis hello Dennis okay hang on
guys it sounds like Dennis can’t hear me
I’m gonna I’m gonna call him right back
[Music]sorry it’s a live show
just hang tight
[Music]mm-hmm
still trying hang on guys
that’s strange not answering all right I
think he might have lost his internet
connection let’s try again
that’s one more time hang on
Denis what’s going on there hi hey how
many drinks have you had
then it’s can you hear me you tried to
paste that link and then it just went
sideways u-turn okay we’re back okay
we’re back so no worries okay so let’s
let’s go to let’s just go back to the
question you know it and it seems like
the role of DMT and humans and nature
seems elusive to me it’s like this
access to this mystical realm or
compound mystical space this hyper
dimension that were accessing when we
ingest this compound do you have any
theories about that is there something
specific about the molecule that could
result in you know discovering more
about why it’s so important or why it
has this effect that it has well it’s a
you know it’s a it’s a difficult
question to answer
I mean you so you take DMT you have this
experience you seem to be in this
parallel reality in a certain sense you
could call it you appear to encounter
entities other intelligences in that
space that that don’t appear to be you
or anything like you but you have to
remember you’re bringing your
interpretive frameworks to this you know
just because that’s what it appears to
be doesn’t mean that’s what it is you
know and and you know it’s difficult to
resist the temptation to say well I you
know it opened a portal into another
dimension certainly you know that may be
our subjective impression and maybe it
does but
how do you how do you test that you know
I mean you know I I can be a wet blanket
or I can say well you know certain like
dopamine is a neurotransmitter it will
have these effects you know serotonin is
a neurotransmitter will have other
effects DMT is a neurotransmitter maybe
it’s just that when you smoked DMT this
is what happens you know and it’s a
reflection of brain architecture brain
chemistry maybe rather than any other
dimension so you saying that the
spiritual context that some cultures add
to the experience of DMT could be just
you know just that their interpretation
of something and an event like I was
watching a lecture that you gave today
and you were talking about this this
this culture in the Amazon that you know
that the value the purge that happens
when you drink ayahuasca and they
thought that it was like some sort of
energetic release you know like an
energy leaving your body so you know
these cultures identify with some sort
of spiritual aspect to this compound and
you know so I mean that’s that’s why I
mean you’re the scientist so of course
you would say you know it’s it’s just in
the brain but I’m wondering if it you
know if it has a spiritual something
else context well yes of course but it’s
not the drug that has the spiritual
aspect it’s the experience you think all
the newer drug noses trigger that your
experience has spiritual aspects to it
the drug seems to facilitate that
experience but you know this goes back
to you know I think a mistake that a lot
of people made back in the day I
certainly made it this idea that somehow
the trip is in the drug you know the
it’s it’s not it doesn’t work that way
you know the drug is simply a molecule
it has the effects of the
as when you mix it with a human nervous
system
you know the nervous system the the you
can think of the drug in some way is
like a musical score you know I mean
when you and the instrument that plays
the plays it is the brain actually the
brain body you know when you put it into
that biochemical soup but it goes
through its pharmacokinetics it goes
through its metabolism the symphony
plays out and the symphony is what you
experience as the psychedelic experience
the drug on the shelf is simply a
crystal on a shelf it doesn’t have any
of these properties you know it’s a
trigger it’s a catalyst that lets the
nervous system express itself in this
way now you know so then you can take
this totally you know sort of subjective
experience they will it’s all it’s all
in my head you know there is no extra
dimension there is no portal two
parallel universes or anything like that
it’s just a subjective experience you
know it’s like a dream you know but then
so you say okay well there’s nothing to
it beyond that but you know you’re
getting into some difficult
epistemological territory because really
what what else is there but the
hallucination the experience that our
brains synthesize and present to us as
reality you know I mean is there
anything beyond that but it maybe maybe
not but it’s very hard to you know it’s
very hard to objectively know about it
because we’re caged we’re trapped
or I mean trapped as a bad term because
it implies that you know we’re
constrained but in some ways we are
inside of this neural falou
nation that we create for ourselves and
that we inhabit it’s a model of reality
I very I very often said this you know
our brains construct a model of reality
essentially a hallucination that we
proceed to inhabit you know so we’re
living out our own movies all the time
we’re not really direct directly
experiencing reality we know enough to
be pretty sure than there’s something
out there that’s not the self but we
never experience that direction
hmm I mean I I really connect with your
idea of you know like when you look at a
musical sheet on a piece of paper that’s
all it is is to justice like you know
writing on on these notes on a piece of
paper but then when you apply the
instrument and you play the music then
you’re adding it to this this extra
dimension of you know time and space so
perhaps perhaps the psychedelic
experiences the same way you know the
the molecule DMT is just that it’s just
a molecule but when ingested and the
brain being the instrument that’s when
it allows us to play inside this reality
that that we’re creating you know for
ourselves that’s exactly it
so it plays out through time to put it
to play the musical score with an
instrument brings it to life it
expresses it as a fourth dimensional
object or a fourth dimensional not
object but process same thing I mean I
mean the drug in the end the absence of
the of the instrument to play it which
is our brains is pretty abort inert and
frankly fairly boring you know but once
you put it in the right context and then
you know then it plays it plays in
fourth dimension and of course we are we
are fourth dimensional entities you know
because we’re you know you
could a person and they appear to be
solid and they are but they’re a process
you know the fact that they are alive
means they’re metabolizing and
metabolism is something that expresses
through time you know so that’s the
fourth dimensional aspect of personhood
when metabolism ceases then there’s not
much to talk about because the person is
dead right so so we you know we normally
don’t think of these things we operate
within this set of these assumptions not
really thinking to too much about what
you know about these interpretive
structures that we put on to it but when
you when you actually sort of focus in
on those then you have just you know you
have to admit to yourself there’s all
sorts of assumptions about the nature of
reality the nature of your own
experience you know and and this comes
up again and again with the notion that
you know for example encountering
apparently non-human intelligences in a
psychedelic state you know do are these
entities real or are they fabrications
of your own imagination or are they in
that sense are they a part of yourself
you know that is presenting as something
that isn’t the self so these are tricky
tricky questions and we don’t normally
think about them we use all these terms
you know without really thinking about
it’s a mystery I mean that’s that’s a
are the mystery list of it and the
question is too big for us to really
understand and answer definitively right
can we accept that well so far so far
yeah right yeah right and what about
what about at the moment of you know
cardiac arrest the moment of death and I
mean is there any relevance or truth to
this idea that there’s this sir
dmt that’s being generated at the moment
of cardiac arrest it’s very possible
that there is you know and would not be
surprising that you’re probably thinking
of Edie freqs cos work on this and it’s
just a neuro protective function is it
just true well that that that’s enough
right if I mean it is in fact neuro
protective it’s a very good antioxidant
and if if you’re having a ischemic
attack a stroke essentially you know if
the body can mobilize those stores of
DMT in the lungs and they’re actively
transported into the brain then they
they would have this this neural
protective effect they would prevent the
degeneration of the neurons through
hypoxia through lack of oxygen they
would they would buy some time you know
and it’s perfectly reasonable and in
fact you know that the body would have
these these protective reactions to that
kind of event I mean a stroke probably
mobilizes all kinds of responses but
that might be one of the conference one
of the you know one of the responses is
the mobilisation of massive amounts of
DMT now the fact this might also induce
a profound psychedelic state may have
nothing to do with the fact that it’s
neuro protective and I’m saving your
life but it might be it’s kind of a
benefit it’s kind of a convenient side
effect because you’re you know you know
how you go to the mat you go to the
dentist and they put the television on
so you mean it it won’t pay attention to
what they’re doing in there well
something like that
you know the body maybe say well you
know you can watch the movies well you
know where we’re trying to you know save
the save your brain and then it may not
have any me mean beat on hmm
interesting I want Ennis I really want
to get into like the the ecological
nightmare that were in I was reading
reading this article
do you remember remember this this movie
that that came out several years ago it
was by M night Shyamalan I think it was
called the the happening where these
plants start releasing this compound
that makes humans commit suicides or
something like that
it was really about their movies
interesting and I mean it’s it was like
the earth was protecting itself because
humans were killing it and I read this
or this article out of route Reuters and
it’s I guess these this us-led team of
scientists were drilling into the Arctic
and they found that now they found a
bunch of plastic in the they drilled
down into you know the core of the earth
and they in the remotest waters on the
planet found pieces of plastic there so
you know this is an ecological nightmare
that were that were in the middle of and
it seems like it seems like people
people don’t care I mean do they I mean
until it until it’s at their front door
do people really I mean there’s some of
us that care but for the masses do they
care about what’s happening with earth I
don’t think so I don’t think they care
and I think until if it affects their
lives directly maybe it affects the the
price of gas then they start to complain
that’s right well I think a lot of them
don’t know about it and you know and you
know there is a very active
disinformation campaign to keep people
distracted and to keep their attention
away from you know these ecological
processes which are actually threatening
the existence of our species certainly
and maybe all of life on Earth I don’t
get it Savior it’s some kind of
cognitive dissonance you know we’re you
know in the the real consequences of
what we’re doing to the planet are so
horrible they’re too much to to
contemplate in in some ways and so
people you know naturally they retreat
into denial
but denial is not going to fix the
problem and you know and I as you know
I’ve often said these plants and
experiences that they can catalyze our
wake-up call in that sense I mean I do
think that the plant that the community
of species in the biosphere is
intelligent and I think that these
plants are like ambassadors of the
community of species they just happen to
make these neurotransmitter like
messenger molecules that impact our
nervous system in in these particular
ways and help us to wake up to the you
know to the crisis that we faced the
question is what happens when you wake
up what’s the next step well it’s not so
clear you know I mean I mean you the in
part the mission becomes we have to get
everybody woken up and then maybe we can
come to a consensus about what to do
about it
if anything you know it may be that it’s
too late that we’re there were so far
beyond any remediation that we could
take for this kind of thing that you
know we I mean I’m not sure that the
solution is a human originated solution
at this point you know we can stop to
some degree we could try to stop what
we’re doing to you know not compound
that the damage you know they say when
you’re digging a hole the first thing
you do is stop digging right if we could
do that literally then we might be able
to turn it around but you know every
time a new report comes out on the
climate how rapidly is changing and so
on the timeframe becomes becomes shorter
and and
you know a few years ago was that we
have 30 years you know now maybe 20
years maybe only 10 years you know the
window is becoming shorter and shorter
are we going to wake up I think that’s
the question Wow a record checkup and if
we wake up will it be too late what what
can we do to mitigate this and you know
I don’t really know I mean Terrence was
talking a lot about this before he died
and he was really big on this and it
didn’t connect back then and I I think I
agree with you I think it might be too
late I mean I’ve read the studies on
this I’ve really dug into this and I’m
not sure there’s a practical solution
that we supposedly hit peak oil like I
think in the 90s and we’re still
dependent on fossil fuels there’s just
not enough happening there’s not enough
awareness there’s not enough taking
place that’s that’s is you know counter
indicating that something is going to
shift in our favor and so so if it’s if
it’s too late for you know humanity so
be it the you know humans they seem to
do this you know like wherever they go
is is they they take from their
environment and and take and take and so
you know it’s it’s a process of
destroying you know their the ecology
that’s around them and I find that
fascinating I find it you know
fascinating that we can’t find an
equilibrium or a harmony within
ourselves the way we live and the earth
the home the planet that we exist on
right we we can’t we don’t and it’s
dismaying I think a lot of this as I’ve
often said there’s a reflection of the
the the sort of poison the the poison
that has seeped into Western
consciousness you know particularly West
the West but
really it’s it’s a human disease but
this under this this perception that
we’re not part of nature and that we own
it you know it exists to serve us and
that sort of top-down hierarchical
perspective is what’s gotten us into
this mess that were in because we think
that nature exists only to be depleted
that I exploited nature probably
disagrees with that you know I mean it
has its own program and we you know I
don’t worry so much about the survival
of life on the planet I think that life
is very resilient but and we’ll adapt
there have been massive extinction
events at various points in in
evolutionary history different costs you
know we’re 95% of all terrestrial life
has gone extinct and so on sure we
shouldn’t imagine that that can’t happen
again we will likely be among the first
to go
life will persist you know but it won’t
be as interesting as we are it won’t be
as complex or problematic after some
millions of years it may read Aversa phi
and who knows what will replace it but
you know we are the problematic species
we’re the ones that are putting all this
pressure on the equilibrium states that
maintain the smooth functioning of the
biosphere we are pushing all those
envelopes at a certain point it won’t be
possible for it to snap back and then
we’re up the creek without a paddle as
it were you know is it going to happen I
don’t know they’re like in there yeah it
seems like a when question to me it’s
it’s like when is it going to occur not
not if it’s going to occur well and I
mean who knows who knows maybe there’s a
millennial out there that comes up with
this really great idea and
and it’s it’s mainstream adopted and
maybe right maybe corporations back off
of this at any cost
you know profit paradigm that we are in
the middle of and it’s not like we have
a backup place to go to there’s no
there’s no God yeah no I mean there
there is no other and and you know yeah
there really isn’t any place to escape
to
in fact these all this talk about
putting a colony on the moon a colony on
Mars in the first place the time frame
for those things is much longer I mean
we’re likely to be confronting this
crisis long before we could have any
kind of colony on another planet and I’m
I’m sort of irritated by the idea why
does it have to be on a planet why don’t
we try to get ourselves a permanent
presence in space that’s where all the
energy and material are that’s where
more or less infinite resources are we
need to you know become build space
colonies or whatever if we’re gonna look
at a technological solution I can’t see
that that building another you know a
settlement on Mars so that we then have
another planet to pollute and destroy
you know what’s to be gained in that in
space you can have all of these fairly
dirty process that’s going on because
space is already full of radiation and
dust clouds and all of this stuff you
know so so it’s a great if you’re a
polluting species space is a good place
to do it
well maybe within limits you know I mean
we’re already terming near-earth
near-earth space into a junkyard much to
our detriment
so I don’t know I mean I really don’t
know I I don’t I talked about this a
little bit and you know they described
it as like we are in
you know this age of Kali Yuga the Dark
Age and as and these ages last you know
so long like a hundred and fifty
thousand years but it turns out someone
on Graham Hancock’s website actually
posted this article that I read recently
and it was talking about how this this
Dark Age I mean that’s what it
translates to the Kali Yuga is supposed
to end and shift into this new age
around you know 2025 or so so you got
about six years until we see this this
shift and an awareness change in people
and and if you look at if you look at
what’s happening politically you know
it’s just in America specifically but
just not not just America but all around
the world people are protesting and I
mean everything is so charged up it
seems like we’re on the precipice of
something huge something big yeah that
could change the course of where we’re
going and how we’re getting there yeah
exactly
everything seems to be getting
destabilized I mean that’s not going to
be business as usual you know and then
the question is you know there may well
be solutions to some of these some of
these climate you know climate crises I
mean there are technologies that could
be solution people are talking about
geoengineering and all that you know and
on the one hand this is a radical
solution it’s not something that you
know a few years ago people would
consider but right now things are going
to hell so fast we might need to
implement some some radical measures you
know and I but but the problem is it’s
it’s not that there are not solutions
there are solutions but the problem is
on the policy level you know the the
people who make the policy who should be
stepping up to the plate and saying look
we have a problem here we need to have
all hands on deck to solve this problem
all
you know this is this is something that
threatens not just the United States or
any country it threatens us as a species
so Earthlings Earthlings need to be
responding to this I don’t see that
happening I mean I think you know the
the program of governments particularly
the US government but as you say a lot
of others seem to be very invested in
denial and even making it worse
you know we reversing what pathetic
policy initiatives they have made
because you know now we don’t believe in
it or you know Trump says get global
warming is a hoax and everyone buys that
well it’s not saying you know it’s not a
hoax and you know we live in this in
this environment created by the media
where it actually distorts reality it
seems like you know because we the
reality that we inhabit is created out
of memes you know and the power of
social media and all this can propagate
these memes you know throughout the
global consciousness so quickly is there
anything we can rely on in terms of good
information how do you separate good
information from from lies and
propaganda that’s no any point very hard
to know yeah I mean have you noticed
have you noticed Dennis that I mean
people have changed the world has
distinctly changed since this advent of
like the smartphone like I mean in my
encounters with people when I’m out I
mean I don’t notice people ever looking
up from their phone they’re so
completely addicted it’s like they’re
did they’ve devolved into these like
lower species monkeys there’s actually
this question that segues into this
perfectly Bandar loop as he says what
does Dennis think about Tony writes
theory on fruit symbiosis being involved
in our neural evolution and how humanity
is now degenerating back into
a typical mammalian brain well I think
there may be something to it I like Tony
writes theory in fact I wrote they wrote
the foreword to his the first edition of
this book which was which one it came
out was called left in the dark and it
just makes sense to me
Tony’s theory just makes sense that we
we grow up we evolved in this bio
diverse environment biodiversity as
reflected by chemical diversity we were
pretty much omnivores we consumed lots
of different plants and animals we
consumed a chemically diverse diet we
existed we lived in a complex chemical
ecology right so it just makes sense
that these plant compounds are going to
have an effect on you know our neural
evolution on many aspects of our
revolution either either directly
effecting mutation rates or even through
epigenetics and that sort of thing so I
think it’s a perfectly reasonable
hypothesis and the idea that Tony that
brings forward is that you know we’re
we’ve we’ve sort of you know we’ve
evolved into a place where we’re
actually in a neurodegenerative state
now with the with the deterioration of
the human diet and all that many many
fewer fruits more meat more synthetic
processed food all of that kind of stuff
you know has has an GMOs all of these
things have an influence on the quality
of our diet and the quality of you know
you are you eat right I mean that’s a
common cliche but it really is true you
know what you take into your body for
plants or animals is what your body is
made of and you know so
processes that Tony is talking about
again are you know there co-evolutionary
processes they take place over large
amounts of time but you know I think
that there’s some some validity to what
to what he is talking about I mean it’s
it’s interesting to look at the just a
larger perspective of you know where
things are headed how people seem to be
behaving and you know just looking I
mean in the Information Age I mean
that’s that’s where we are now and where
we’re you know I can transmit at close
to light speed you know across the world
a tweet or something like that and
instantly make aware you know so many
people about a certain topic but you
know what’s in what seems to be
important is just the most trivial you
know it doesn’t really matter to your
everyday life like what the Kardashians
are wearing or you know it’s it’s
something like that it’s nauseating
right well this this is yeah I mean I
mean I think this is this is you point
out this is the two-edged nature of
these kinds of technologies you know I
mean I like the name of a hold in my
hand on the instrument that will you
know let me tap into probably 90% of
human knowledge you know if I am if I’m
persistent enough you can get a lot of
useful information out of these things
unfortunately that’s mostly not what
people use them for you know people IV
it’s not clear i I don’t you know people
value their tribe
you know they value their group and
these these communication devices like
social media and so on they potentially
they sit to reinforce our tribalism
rather than facilitating communicating
outside our tribe
our tribal comfort zone I’m not sure is
it the instrument or is it the human
just human nature you know I tend to
think it’s human nature I think that you
know McGann I’m again
you know technologies don’t have moral
qualities humans have moral qualities
you know and it’s all about the
decisions that we make about how to
behave toward each other how to utilize
these technologies you know they can all
be utilized for beneficial purposes they
can also be utilized for for destructive
purposes you know and what we lack you
know I mean we’re we’re very clever in
in what we can invent these these
devices what they can do we’re not very
clever in how we use them you know so
there’s a there’s a disjunct that has
arisen between our innate wisdom which I
don’t think you can get from you know an
external source necessarily and our
cleverness we’re very very clever we are
not very wise that’s the problem you
know we we have too much of the
technology of the mindset that you know
well we can do these things therefore we
will do these things we should do these
things and we don’t have the wisdom to
step back and say is this really a good
idea you know and and that applies to
things like you know AI genetic
engineering and you know all of these
tremendously powerful technologies that
we can manipulate you know which which
have the potential to be extremely
beneficial but also completely
destructive if we misuse them where
where is the wisdom in you know where is
the wisdom that we can bring to bear on
that and either how they use it in
beneficial ways or how to make it how to
make a conscious decision
let’s don’t do that you know let’s not
use it even though we could do it let’s
don’t do it you know and that takes a
lot of courage that it takes it takes
moral insight to come to that conclusion
I mean the time is now you know it’s
it’s not like we can wait around and and
figure this out later it’s time to
create awareness now and it’s not just
talking about it it’s actually going out
and doing it you first you you you
create the awareness you you demonstrate
that you understand what the problem is
which is that the planet is dying if we
don’t do something about this now like
now I mean 10 years ago then I mean I
think it was Terrence that said that you
know we would we would hand our
children’s children the bones of a dying
world
yeah and that’s pretty much what’s
happening yeah unfortunately so I mean
that’s that’s why this this Academy that
you’re creating is is so important you
know and and things like this and you
know I feel like our our mission
collectively is the same
we’re aligned in this idea of you know I
don’t know collectively helping the
planet each other you know escaping this
sort of result of you know extinction I
guess yeah yeah yeah the Academy like I
said it’s a catalytic Nexus for the
transformational global consciousness so
it is a place that is you know in the
spirit of Lewis and Lewis was the
longest-lived and and really one of the
last of the mystery religions and you
know the Academy is founded in that
spirit you know to be a place where you
can bring the best minds on the planet
together with the help of plant
medicines help people understand reframe
their relationship to nature and to each
other and hopefully come out come away
with
some solutions so it’s a kind of a a
think tank I guess it’s an academy but
think tank is you know to me the term
implies that well you know you have you
have all these educational activities
you put out reports you do these things
but you’re kind of scratching your own
bellybutton
you know you’re not really having any
any impact
I want the Academy to be different in
the sense that it can be at Nexus it can
be a place where brilliant minds can
come together and try to come up with
solutions and and not only brilliant but
also influential you know bring people
together bring people there to have
these transformational experience as
much in the much for the same reason so
that people went to aloose
you know this was a lifetime experience
that you had you were expected to have
and it it you know it was an influence
for your worldview for the rest of your
life that’s what I want the Academy to
be a place where people of influence
power and brilliance can come and you
know think of confront our existential
situation look at it from a different
perspective with the help of Platt
medicines and try to come up with with
some creative answers you know so so
it’s important that people share this
but then then the next step is what do
you lose what you do when you leave the
retreat what do you do when you go home
yeah and some people are in a position
to make some big changes I really hope
so you know that and I mean as it says
and it’s for sure that there are
illnesses of the spirit and the soul and
you know the plant teachers that’s
that’s it’s what’s teaching us you know
it’s it’s showing us ourselves and
uncovering that I’d like to think of it
as you know like in your mind there
being
a closet and you know like you haven’t
opened this door for years and you know
when you drink I you Oscar have one of
these compounds you it it kind of forces
you or makes you encourages you to open
that door and turn on that light in this
dark space and and then pulls out you
know one by one all these traumas and
things that you’ve pushed away you know
like you let manifest into disease and
you know PTSD or anxiety or you know
panic disorders are so many mental
things that are going on in the body but
I think primarily it’s it’s it’s a
connection to the spirit world where
where they are the roots of you know
where these problems occur and that’s
what we need to need to look at and
that’s what plants give us the
technology to do yeah that’s right
that’s right I mean it’s interesting
psychedelics you know I I do say they’re
medicines for the Soul in a certain way
they are you know that they they they
speak to us at the collective level they
speak to us at the species level at the
cultural level and at the individual
level right that’s kind of interesting
they are medicines for all of these
things you know as a species we are
wounded you know and as a culture we are
looted and you can’t live in this
culture without being wounded
psychedelics can address all of that you
know from the individual level to the
collective level you know to the species
level they’ve always been there they’ve
always been capable of that and this has
long been recognized by you know in the
indigenous people who’ve been kind of
the stewards of this knowledge now the
rest of us have to acknowledge it and
and get on board with it you know if we
can if you could persuade people but you
know its dismay
you know it is this mean that that
things like reason you know and truth
and this sort of thing are not
necessarily respected anymore I mean we
live in a world of you know memes and
many of the memes or faults and
deliberately made to to be that way so
I’m not sure how you will look from that
it was er today we’re gonna wrap here
soon Dennis but was there a reason that
you picked the sacred Valley of Peru for
the location I mean it’s a beautiful
place well that’s a good reason you know
right there yeah it’s one of the most
spectacular places that I’ve ever been
to just in terms of the energy that’s
there it’s in the heart of the plant
medicine tradition that’s that’s also a
big reason that not only is there
ayahuasca but there of these other
shamanic medicines that are used so
there’s a tradition around it it’s also
in some ways it’s a microcosm of what is
happening on the planet I mean even
though the sacred valley is a beautiful
place you know all of these things are
going on it also has its own
environmental issues you know due to
climate change
shrinkage of the glaciers on this sort
of thing so partly you know it’s a good
it’s a good it’s what’s not exactly
isolated but many people may be thinking
of this isolated it’s a kind of a
shangri-la in a certain way it is a you
know mountain retreat I mean the the
factors that led me to you know focus on
the sacred Valley here are as much
personal as anything else you know
because I’ve been going there for quite
a while now I’d love it
and I’ve been working at this guesthouse
there with my retreats a place called
will katika
which is ideal location if we ever are
able to afford to buy a physical campus
or acquire a physical location for the
Academy hopefully this would be the
place but just just for a combination of
personal preference and and also the
fact that in some ways it’s you know
it’s a microcosm of the rest of the
world so it’s a place where people can
come and share these experiences and
also get the cultural experience you
know of the Incas who you know and and
the Priya cos I mean this was a society
that worked pretty well you know until
the degree that any society works
there’s a lot to admire about think and
create good cultures so you know there
was not any one thing that made me focus
on the sacred Fowler
Denis I I appreciate your time so much
your presence I always enjoy you know
having these conversations it’s been a
while since we kind of caught up I’m so
glad that we had you here and I’m so
thankful that you’re you’re creating
this this organization to you know
further spread this it seems like this
will be you know a huge part of your
legacy and really wish it the most
success in the world where can people
find more information about the Academy
out what is their website yes our
website is under construction we’re
we’re building it as rapidly as we can
we’ve received some donations a little
bit of seed money that’s gonna let us go
ahead with that so they can always look
at you know www.mckaymagic.com II and my
and Christina who handles registrations
and so on we’ll we’ll get back to you
right away with an email and tell you
for example about this retreat we’ve got
happening in November and anything else
that happens to be on the agenda so
numerous ways and eventually within I
would say within a couple of weeks we
should have we should have at least a
basic website up and open so perfect I
mean so so this is all you know
happening as we speak and it should have
more concrete as time develops and it
sits there as a resource for people very
soon and and I’m glad that you were able
to put this together I think that amazed
is there got some great people it’s not
just me you know it’s got my name on it
but we’re a collective effort and I’ve
got some really creative beautiful
people working on this with me so cool
yeah so so stay tuned for sure Dennis
hang tight for me I’m just gonna do the
clothes here really quick just hang
tight guys that’s gonna do us for hxp
the show today I hope you guys enjoyed
this it’s really fun to talk to Dennis
and get his perspective it’s quite
sobering but I mean this is the reality
that we’re in and that we’re facing so
it’s important that we acknowledge it
and recognize it and do some take action
do something about it if you’re
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