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strangers thank you for listening he not
only had that ability with humans but
with other animals and even with birds
and the eagle was squawking and
screaming and they brought the Eagle to
Rolling Thunder ruling thunder picked up
the Eagle headed it and then the Rolling
Thunder said you carry now you can take
the picture immediately after the
picture was taken that Eagles flew off
back to the nest injuries no more
healthy eagle and that picture is one of
the pictures in our book the shamanic
powers of Rolling Thunder
what’s up guys Xavier Crisanta here with
the human experience and wow what an
interesting episode here with dr.
Stanley Crippler where we get into his
work with Native Americans and
specifically his book called
the shamanic powers of Rolling Thunder
we get into some really interesting
stuff on consciousness dr. Kempner has
been in the consciousness field for 40
50 years so years and is very much
regarded as a pioneer when it comes to
consciousness studies we talk about dr.
Crippen errs work with Alan Watts dr.
Gardner’s work with Jerry Garcia of the
Grateful Dead so this is one of those
once-in-a-lifetime interviews that only
happen once in a while so hopefully you
guys really enjoy this thank you guys so
much for listening the human experience
is in session my guest for today is dr.
Stanley krypter dr. Crippen or welcome
to hxp welcome to you and thank you so
much for inviting me to your show oh
yeah the honor is all ours
sir dr. Crippen you know Europe very
much a pioneer you’ve been in the field
of consciousness study for a very very
long time for anyone who doesn’t know
who you are can you just give us a short
kind of about me a short biography of
what you do and who you are please I am
a professor of psychology at Saybrook
University pounds this is a graduate
school which means that I work with
students who are doing doctoral research
in the area of consciousness studies in
other words they’re doing work with
dreams with hypnosis with shamanism with
parapsychological phenomena and these
are all topics that were not part of the
university curriculum 50 years ago when
I first started out and so when you say
that I am a pioneer I didn’t realize it
at the time because I have always been
interested in these topics from a
scientific perspective
I’m in the position where I can actually
train and educate students who can do
their own research who can continue this
particular tradition yes indeed dr.
caprera
for my own sort of edification how old
are you sir
I’m 84 so you’ve been doing this for a
long time I mean like how much has this
field of research changed for you you
said that it wasn’t part of the
curriculum at first when you first
started sort of lecturing how has this
evolved as you’ve kind of witnessed this
evolution in civilization and the way
that we learn things well let me give
you a few example when I was at the
University of Wisconsin I took my first
psychology course and dreams were only
mentioned one time the professor said
one of the signs of the person is
schizophrenic is if that person dreams
in color well I looked at my friends and
we were a little bit in shock
because all of us dreamed in color well
this was back in the middle 1950s so you
can see how much progress has been made
since that theory ill-informed remark
was made and I’ll give you another
example when I was in graduate school I
was taking a course in anthropology and
one of the professor’s said that shamans
traditional healers were probably
schizophrenic psychotic mentally
unstable and this is one way that the
tribe head of controlling their madness
well now we know that this is not true
at all that shamans and traditional
healers are some of the most stable and
most intelligent and most innovative
members of their society so back in
those days anything that was a little
bit deviant was the sign of
schizophrenia give you another example
when we were talking about schizophrenia
in class one of the sure signs of
schizophrenia was the people claimed to
have dreams about the future well now we
know the dreams about the future whether
they come true or not dreams of
the future are perfectly normal dream
about what they think might be future
events and there are really no signs if
this is schizophrenic at all that’s just
part of the human condition so these are
three specific examples that I can give
you
we’re topics that I was interested in
we’re all consigned to symptoms of
mental illness unfortunately that is no
longer the case so it’s no longer
considered mentally ill if a person is
dreaming color certain dreams of
schizophrenics are usually very blase
they’re usually very simple-minded
they’re not extremely interesting or
exotic at all the exotic dreams there
are signs of creativity not to the
schizophrenia hmm okay I want to move
into your work with this book that
you’ve written called these shamanic
powers of Rolling Thunder what led you
to this book how did you get to a point
where you felt like you had to put this
in a readable format well for those
listeners who do not know what a shaman
is let me just give you a brief
description this is an anthropological
term because each tribe has its own name
for these special people but shamans are
men and women who give information from
unusual sources that people in their
culture or their tribe don’t have access
to they can give information from dreams
they can get information from taking
drugs and going into altered states of
consciousness they can get information
from intuition from hunches and they use
this information to help them to heal
members of their community so rolling
thunder’ is somebody who I met more or
less accidentally several decades ago
and we became close friends and we saw
each other and even did some work
together up to the time of his death and
now in this book the shamanic powers of
Rolling Thunder I’ve worked with rolling
thunders grandson Sid Morningstar and
we’ve pulled together a couple of dozen
accounts of people whose lives were
ducted is in some cases radically
changed by their contact with Rolling
Thunder as his name implies he was
Native American Shoshone Cherokee he
drew upon his Native American tradition
to do all of the helpful acts of
kindness acts of compassion and also
militancy standing up for Indian rights
over the course of his life
he had a uncanny ability to look at the
person and yet some hunch as to what
that person’s ailment might be and the
best way to heal it he not only had that
ability with humans but with other
animals and even with birds one of the
people who contributed to the book Kerry
Garnier was given six months to live by
his doctor and so he went off to find
Rolling Thunder and the Rolling Thunder
let him stay at his camp Kerry was a
photographer and Rolling Thunder said I
don’t like my photograph taken so don’t
take any photographs until I give you
permission
so period read and he took the sweat
lodge the Bears the herbs the prayers he
did all of the things Rolling Thunder
told him to do if the other six months
he was still alive and he’s still alive
today even though the doctor said he of
the fatal disease during his last week
at rolling thunders camp
Terry’s friends had come to pick him up
and a little Eagle had fallen out of the
nest and it was in bad shape
maybe the wing was broken and the eagle
was squawking and screaming and they
brought the eagle to Rolling Thunder
Rolling Thunder picked up the eagle and
petted it and the eagle calm down and
then the Rolling Thunder said you carry
now you can take the picture and Harry
took the picture immediately after the
picture was taken that eagle flew off
back to the nest injuries no more
healthy eagle and that picture is one of
the pictures in our book the shamanic
powers of Rolling Thunder as well as the
story
so dr. Crippen if I could just back you
up for a second there was a an
experiment that Timothy Leary ran a
psilocybin experiment do you recall the
aim of the experiment and its effects on
you and what is your current take on the
usefulness or not of researchers using
psilocybin or similar substances in the
pursuit of testing parrots psychological
phenomena well this was back in the
1960s when I volunteered for a
experiment with psilocybin and again for
listeners who don’t know what psilocybin
is it’s a mind-altering drug similar to
LSD so this was another area in which
you might say I was a pioneer because I
could see the usefulness of these drugs
for psychotherapy for creativity for
exploring the drain and its function in
altered states of consciousness and then
there were several decades in which this
work was illegal unfortunately we lost a
lot of time even lost a lot of lives
that could have been saved now
psilocybin is being used in different
parts of the world even in the United
States and a few locations to treat
people who are mentally ill especially
people who have what we call bipolar
conditions where they’re very excited
and happy one minute and very low and
depressed the next one that they go back
and forth and psilocybin seems to be
helpful for many of these people so
again something that I foresaw back in
the 1960s I wasn’t the only one that saw
this of course and so now it’s being
used and it’s being written up in
psychological and psychiatric journals
and so finally the what we might say
psilocybin time has arrived psilocybin
by the way is the chief active
ingredient in a mushroom and I actually
had a chance to disarm ins
in central Mexico who were using the
mushroom in sacred ceremony – was their
way of contacting God their way of
making contact of the spirits
so it sounds like this is a key part in
these shamanic rituals and continues to
be a key part in these shamanic rituals
that correct well not all shamanic
rituals use drugs and I have to keep
emphasizing this over and over again
drugs are only one way the shamans to
get information just think of the letter
D drugs is one way dreams is another way
dancing is another way drums is another
way deprivation going without sleep
going without food all of those are ways
that shamans change their consciousness
alter their attention get inspiration
get insight in non ordinary ways that
other members of their tribe don’t have
the skill or the patience to do hmm very
interesting also during these shamanic
ceremonies it’s very common to have
ritual chanting is that correct oh good
heavens chanting is very important
that’s something that I’ve experienced
myself because almost all shamans use a
great deal of singing and chanting and
dancing drumming and music that’s an
integral way of getting in touch with
shall we say parts of the brain that are
pretty far removed from our verbal
rational logical discourse puts us of
touch with unconscious information in
some of the deep sources of our wisdom
I’ve been with the Rolling Thunder when
we’ve gone into a sweat lodge which is a
little hot usually made out of animal
skin and wood and in the sweat lodge
there are prayers and there are chants
and you sweat all the impurities out of
your body sometimes you have visions
sometimes you hear voices I’ve done many
many sweat lodges with Rolling Thunder
with other people and I’ve seen him use
sweat lodges as a way of helping to heal
people and to symbolically physically or
both extry the poisons from their body
that have been holding them back hmm
very interesting is very very important
in the shamanic tradition it’s also
important
in other traditions the Christian Orion
chance for example which go back
centuries the Tibetan chant the Buddhist
chants this rhythmic repetition of key
words and sacred phrases over and over
again has been a part of spiritual
traditions for millennia okay so dr.
creepier what’s happening during these
chants during this chanting process as a
scientist is the brain going into a sort
of trance state when it’s tearing this
rhythmic kind of repetition of sound you
just mentioned the key word rhythmic yes
a rhythm is set up and the rhythm can be
done by chanting it can be done by
drumming it can be done by a mantra
meditation any repetition of a phrase or
a word or a song shall we say
synchronize the brain can pull it
together can put it into a condition
which is far away from ordinary
discourse ordinary logical thinking
chanting and drumming and singing in
prayer are all excellent ways of
shifting from the logical and rational
to the deep unconscious to the imagery
to the inner knowledge that exists in
all of us but most of us don’t take
advantage of yeah yeah I can truly
understand that
so dr. Crippin let’s say that I was
interested in participating in a
ceremony in a shamanic ceremony with a
Native American tribe is it set up to
heal us was the goal of one of these
ceremonies well first of all there are
some 500 Native American tribes that
have been listed and registered by
anthropologists and even by the US
government that’s a lot of tribes but
before the Europeans came there were
closer to a thousand tribes millions of
Native Americans died when the Europeans
came of diseases and of warfare and
infections
it was a massacre even worse than the
Holocaust during the Second World War
tens of millions of Native Americans
died then many of the tribes died too
however there are many tribes left and
there is now a renaissance there is a
new interest in Native Americans Rolling
Thunder was part of this he was very
militant he thought through length under
Rights there’s a whole chapter in our
book about the ways that Congress passed
laws to protect Native Americans and we
see that played out today in terms of
the protests that Native Americans are
holding when corporations threatened
their tribal lands and their burial
grounds so back to Rolling Thunder in
his typical eeling ceremonies he used
drumming and I’ve been with him when he
has it maybe 50 people in a circle and
while the drums are going on they chant
a typical Native American song which he
has taught them and the sick person is
in the middle of the circle the sick
person is absorbing the attention and
the energy and the music and the rhythm
and of course the sick person goes into
what we call an altered state of
consciousness and then in Rolling
Thunder gives a suggestion about that
person getting well or gives a
suggestion about a power animal or a
power bird that is going to be helpful
that person is very suggestible it’s the
same type of skill that people in the
psychotherapy profession draw upon in
the use hypnosis people become very
suggestible to outside influence and if
you can make a connection with their
inner source of healing what I call
their inner shaman then they can
mobilize all of the bodily defenses all
of those wonderful endorphins and
neurotransmitters that can begin to
restore a person to health well Rolling
Thunder didn’t use fanciful terms but he
also spoke about contacting one’s inner
healer he often said I don’t heal
anybody I try to get my patients to heal
themselves
that was the essence of his whole
procedure and everything he did was to
empower the patient to give the
patient’s the skill in the insight so
they could start on their own route of
self-healing okay very interesting so
one of the things that you’ve talked
about in your previous book was the
effect that Rolling Thunder had on the
Grateful Dead’s Mickey Hart what was the
experience that happened there if you
could if you could tell us that well
very kind of you to mention our previous
book the voice of Rolling Thunder and we
call the book the voice of Rolling
Thunder because Mickey Hart the drummer
for the Grateful Dead now called
deadened company had several dozen hours
of rolling thunders lectures tape
recorded and we transcribed all of those
tape recorded lectures and use those in
the book so that people could actually
get rolling thunders own words but
Mickey Hart is actually the person who
introduced me to Rolling Thunder when I
would visit Mickey Hart at his ranch at
California he kept saying I’ve got to
introduce you to Rolling Thunder you’ve
gotta meet Rolling Thunder this Native
American medicine man who I know and so
finally when I visited his ranch he sent
a private plane to Nevada to pick up
Rolling Thunder and being Rolling
Thunder to California so that we could
meet and let me tell you it was quite a
remarkable meeting that’s what our
friendship started and for the next
several decades I was in close contact
with Rolling Thunder visiting him at his
ranch but also we did workshops together
in Germany and I was able to introduce
him to people all over the United States
including Doug Boyd who wrote a
wonderful book about Rolling Thunder
many many decades ago the distill in
trim so Rolling Thunder and I have a
long history Mickey Hart and I have an
even longer history and Rolling Thunder
was the product of the contact I had
with Mickey Hart and the Grateful Dead
and with Roth music that goes back of
course many many years but the
again you talk about me being a pioneer
back in those days when most of the
people my age thought that rock and roll
is a passing fancy I said no this
appeals to something basic in the human
body this is a type of music that goes
deeply into the unconscious this is
going to become a major art form and
early on identified the Grateful Dead as
being in the vanguard because not only
did they draw upon rock and roll but
they told they use Soul Country and
Western jazz and even some Native
American music from both North and South
America in their music mm-hmm yeah so
dr. Cabrera I’m really curious to know
you know how did this persona impact
your life in the greatest way I mean was
there something that you learned from
Rolling Thunder that that’s stuck with
you through the years yes I learned many
things of from Rolling Thunder and one
thing that is very important ruling
Thunder was very much of an activist
back in the 1960s and 1970s
but he never resorted to violence all of
his methods are very nonviolent in the
tradition of Martin Luther King and
Mahatma Gandhi and young our book the
shamanic powers of Rolling Thunder I
give an example of that corporations
were illegally tearing up the pine nut
trees and taking over the land this was
against the law but the Indians didn’t
have good lawyers they didn’t know how
to fight this takeover of their land and
many of growing thunders young Draves
said well we’ll get our rifles and we’ll
just start a rebellion against them and
the Rolling Thunder said no we do not
resort to violence first of all let’s go
and get a camera and do a video showing
the way that the land is being torn up
because it had bulldozers tearing up
these pine nut trees and pine nuts are a
cheap source of protein for the Native
Americans they’re very very important so
they got a photograph and then at night
they wasn’t they put sand in the gas
tanks
the bulldozers so the bulldozers are out
of commission for several days and in
the meantime somebody through the
Washington DC and showed the video to
politicians said to say most of the
politicians were not interested however
senator Ted Kennedy took a great
interest in this and he went to
President Nixon Kennedy of course is a
Democrat Nixon was a Republican but they
both agreed that this this had to stop
and Nixon issued a presidential order
that stopped the exploitation of
American lands Nixon was obviously
guilty of many many serious breaches of
the law but when it came to Native
Americans he did the right thing he had
the Native American athletic coach and
that contact remained with him he
probably did more for Native Americans
and then the other recent American
president so anyway that’s the example
of whether stayed with me in terms of
using one’s intelligence to become
active rather than to resort to anything
that might be violent now a completely
different aspect in terms of what I
learned from Rolling Thunder is to find
the source of healing within yourself
and the natural environment and not
become too dependent upon pharmaceutical
drugs you can do a great deal of diet
you can do a great deal with exercise
with prayer with meditation with
thinking positive thoughts you could use
more natural ways of recovering from an
illness and keeping healthy by becoming
shall we say linked with nature because
we’re all a very important part of
nature the Western tradition has been
for people to control nature
Rolling Thunder felt that we were a part
of nature and that’s a another learning
that I’ve had from him over the years
so dr. Crippin I mean because it seems
like Western civilization is so behind
on so many things
how can we learn from these other
cultures that seem to be so far ahead in
a regard to consciousness and what can
we learn from these other cultures that
the West hasn’t picked up yet well of
course as I mentioned earlier I teach
the Saybrook University and it’s a Brook
University emphasize humanistic and
transpersonal psychology and these are
approaches to psychology that emphasize
the link between people and the natural
environment not that there’s anything
wrong with other psychological
approaches but they don’t pay as much
attention to the connection with nature
and also with cross-cultural traditions
as humanistic and transpersonal
psychology do there’s a lot that we can
learn from other cultures there’s a lot
that we can learn from being in nature
and Alan Watts another one of my great
friends and teachers made the point that
the earth gives birth to people just
like an apple tree gives birth to apples
well the earth peoples were part of the
earth
Rolling Thunder realized this and as a
matter of fact one of my students
arranged for Rolling Thunder Alan Watts
and myself to do a week of joint
lectures and seminars at the University
of New Mexico so there are a lot of wise
people today who are teaching us to
learn from other traditions not that
there’s anything wrong with our
tradition there’s a lot that’s right
with it and not that other traditions
are always perfect they are not they
make many many mistakes one has to think
critically one has to evaluate one has
to use common sense but by broadening
the scope of our knowledge in learning
from what Rolling Thunder and other
Native American leaders have been
teaching us we can all live better lives
and healthier lives and we can find ways
to bond more closely with other humans
and also to take better care of
ourselves and also to form spiritual
bonds with nature and the world beyond
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