Transcript for Caveh Zahedi – Actor/Director/Film Maker

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Xavier Catania with the human experience

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the human experience is in session that

my guest today is mr. calving it’s a

heady and we are discussing existential

ism and life and his work have a welcome

to the human experience thank you I have

admired your work ever since you had the

cameo on waking life always the scene of

the holy moment mm-hmm and I think

that’s where I kind of found your work

and I saw that it was like a who who is

this guy and I started looking I went

through all the work that you had done I

saw in the bathtub of the world where

you recorded each day of your life and I

found that fascinating so you know how

did you get into this process I mean

where did this begin for you um well I

used to be kind of when I was young like

in a 17 or whatever I was torn between

like art and politics and it seemed like

you know part of me wanted to like you

know change the world and make it better

and part of me just wanted to like

express myself and I think I was kind of

torn and I wouldn’t you know felt like I

to go to politics I had to go to art and

I couldn’t really figure out a way to

integrate those two desires and one day

I think I was a freshman in college I

just thought oh film actually is a way

that you can do both art and politics at

the same time and that was a very

liberating realization and I just

started making films yeah and there is a

lot of that in your fill in your work

there is a sort of challenging of the

status quo and I mean you were

challenging it early I mean with your

with your first movies I was obsessed by

God to talk about the existence of God

and I mean let’s get into that I mean

where where does this come from where

does passion about finding out these

sort of answers these big questions

where does or is that originated from I

mean mostly comes from you know genetic

experiences I mean I think

rugs were a huge you know transformative

influence on my life and all of my god

stuff comes from that I was an atheist

before I tried you know LSD and stuff um

so you know my work is very I think

psychedelic inflected although not

always completely overtly although

usually every film has like a drug scene

in it but I think the the

autobiographical stuff started the

relative analogy trip and it was um I

was writing a script of the film school

about vivisection which I was against

and I was having a hard time writing it

and I was trying to sort of make like a

Hollywood movie against intersection and

I took some LSD just because I got into

Terence Mckenna recently and I would

sort of sort of exploring that realm and

I had the division uh and there was like

a vision of the Buddha and I’m not a

Buddhist at all so I came out of nowhere

and he had his hand open and in

attending was a flower and that’s all I

would but with that image was a was a

was an insight which was that anybody

was saying to me you know true this

symbol was that beauty is everywhere

it’s right in front of your face and the

flower was like beauty that’s right in

front of your eyes you’ll see and the

kind of the classical Hollywood model

that we were being taught how to do with

you know taking the stakes really high

and a certain amount of conflict and

drama and I kind of just realized you

know the thing that’s missing is that we

don’t see what’s in front of us and this

is the experience and the lesson of

drugs as well it’s like you know we just

don’t see what’s right in front of it

then what your pelvis is astonishingly

beautiful and astonishingly moving and

yet we’re not we’re not always

astonishingly move or astonishingly

stunned by how beautiful you know I’m

sitting in a basement and you know it’s

by anyone else’s description quite ugly

and but if I was on drugs it would it

would be like the most beautiful thing

I’d ever seen in my life and it is I

just can’t see it so it just became like

I think that the trick is to learn to

see the world as it really it yeah and

so I started making cells about my life

just like really ordinary thing

not dramatic things and I sort of moved

away from fiction and just towards like

how can I see what is right in front of

me and how can I represent it or show it

in a way that people see the beauty of

it and also the depth of it and I think

also because some thing about honesty

like I’m not religious or I have no like

agenda or platform and I don’t know why

anything is but I do believe that if

you’re honest about what you’re feeling

and who you are what’s really going on

with you that is the path towards

towards something better like that’s

that’s God’s path the world is just the

truth so everything just tries to be

honest and to see what is right there

that is sort of unseen

yeah that’s such a beautiful way to put

it um you know I think there was in in

the bathtub of the world I think you

were video blogging before it was even

you know a thing and there was a scene

that I remember that stuck with me where

you took I think it was four grams of

dried mushrooms and from what I remember

was a long time ago when I saw it but

you’re you’re kind of on the floor and

you’re just like we are one we are one

not two we are one because it made the

movie or made it made the film it I just

you know there’s there was such a strong

relationship between your self-discovery

and your your willingness to put

yourself in front of a camera every day

and record it that I found I mean it was

just a very vulnerable place and I don’t

think I could even do that actually yeah

thank you

you know it’s vulnerable but like if I

don’t do that I feel dead so it’s like

vulnerable or dead it’s too often yeah

but you you started I mean you graduated

with a philosophy degree from Yale and

then you went to Switzerland in an

attempt to work with jean-luc Godard and

Godard and I mean what what happened

there well I mean what was what led you

to that

well you know when I started making

films I had a very simplistic notion of

politics you know and I made like a very

like a preachy social issue kind of

films I made a film about you know

apartheid and how bad it was and you

know just like the usual tropes and and

I really just do really understand film

except in the way that I’d seen them and

sort of was very derivative what I was

doing so when I was in college I took a

class called film and politics and it

was mostly about guitars contribution to

cinema and which was you know for me

that there was this fundamental insight

that he had which I think was really

important which was that the formal

properties of a film are not only as

important as the film’s content but they

actually did an ideology that’s implicit

in the form and that unless we can

change the formal property of cinema

that has its ideology implicit in them

we’re not going to change the ideology

of our culture which is obviously a big

problem the problem with our costumes

bedi ology is in backwards you know it’s

wrongheaded so it just became a search

for form and for like what is the right

form to speak not only the truth about

the present which is constantly in flux

and changing it needs to constantly

evolve and change but also what is the

implicit ecological assumption in the

current form and so my work really came

out of that search for a different form

that would somehow be able to to look at

to deconstruct you know the the

implications of the ideology that we’re

all sort of stuck it and so that’s the

other kind of part of it I understand

the political aspect of it and your

desire to kind of reach this sort of

activism part of yourself but was there

also a sort of idea that you might get

famous through what you were doing and

that your work would become so big that

you know everyone would know about it

you did you sort of have that playful

fantasy yeah I still do I would love

that and you know aside from the ego

aspect of it which is obviously you know

always there there’s also just like in

film especially like if you don’t reach

us or a number of people you can’t make

enough money to continue it’s like kind

of goes with the art form

itself and also you know I made a bunch

of films and I would spend years on them

and you know I have a screening and like

you know five people with common most of

them would be homeless you know and it

was just like you know what am i doing

you know like if your films aren’t being

seen you know you’re not having much of

an effect on the world so there is a

there’s both a desire you know an ego

desire for fame and glory which I have

as much as the next guy but also a

political desire for for making a

difference and those two desire is you

know cohabit uncomfortably sometimes but

they’re both there always yeah

completely agree with that I definitely

think that those two things might clash

in some ways and prevent you from sort

of being famous because if you were

making a movie about you know just the

mainstream and something accessible to

just I mean people people are kind of

designed to accept you know reality

television and the Kardashians and if

you if you kind of lowbrow it that way

it you know that’s an easy way to kind

of you know just just operate all right

yeah I mean I suppose anybody can really

lowbrow it successfully unless they

already you know lowbrow like I think

there’s some kind of have to be who you

are even if you’re trying not to be you

still comes through so I think you know

there are people who are just more in

sync with the zeitgeist or with the

culture at large that others a certain

vote you know more in the vanguard or

more in some other just marginal place

so I’m always trying to make my films

more accessible you know but I can’t I

can’t quite pull it off because you know

I’m just I cannot be me on some level

and it’s just not satisfying to make

something that isn’t me and you know the

hope is that you know you’ll still hit a

zeitgeist vibrational frequency that

works and you know you do the best you

can and you don’t know what the culture

is going to do but you just sort of try

to find a balance between who you are

and what the culture requires so I think

you have a 15 director credit and I mean

that’s that’s quite a few directions

that you’ve you know had an involvement

in and and I mean where those scripts

you wrote as well well I have written

scripts and some of the films are

scripted a lot of them are you know are

more like a bit nonfiction or they’re

improvised you know like a script

writing is not the main thing I do

go on well you know each film is

different like the TV show I’m doing

right now and if you’ve seen it called

the show about the show and the way I do

that is I just tell a story about what’s

been happening since the last episode

and then I you can do a few different

takes of the story and then I said edit

together the best bits and then i

reenact things that i’m talking about

when it seems appropriate to dramatize

something and then I use documentary

footage if I have documentary footage of

the things I’m talking about and it’s

just kind of the hodgepodge of different

formal strategies but it’s basically you

know storytelling but without any kind

of pre-existing script it’s just like

you know whatever comes out of my mouth

in the present moment is is usually the

best way to say it and and then I sort

of do some you know adjusting afterwards

and sometimes all right could you not

write new lines

yeah right new lines I got say oh I

should have said it this way that would

be a more you know compelling or more

communicative so it’s a very you know

organic process yeah yeah indeed you

know is do you see one of your films as

more I kind of want us to be successful

but I mean that that’s I feel like

that’s such a bloated word do you

connect with one of your films more than

the others I don’t I mean the most

successful one in terms of just money

and viewers was probably I am a sex

addict and I usually like the most

recent thing I’ve done the most just

because it’s fresh to me and it sort of

you know it just speaks to Who I am

right now but I love them all I’m going

to really I really do

yeah and you know it really seems like

when you’re doing your movies it really

seems as if you’re exposing your entire

life and doesn’t that make you feel very

naked in front of the camera and I mean

to kind of show every aspect of yourself

to the world it must be very very

vulnerable thing to do uh it is and some

things more than others um you know I’m

a sex addict was about my addiction to

prostitutes and that was a very you know

shameful a feeling for me I had a lot of

shame around it so that was you know

very uncomfortable but doesn’t something

incredibly liberating about about being

vulnerable or naked and cents and being

seen and you know I think like like

everyone I want to be I want to be loved

and you know you can’t be loved unless

you’re known and it doesn’t really count

for me if it’s like a false perception

of you that is loved so there’s also

something incredibly gratifying about

about just being vulnerable and and

putting it out there and having the

people who do appreciate it I love that

appreciate I love that yeah and and you

you’ve been making films servers for so

long and I feel like when when we kind

of when we fall on our face and make

mistakes I think that’s when we learn

the most it is there any one point one

mistake or one thing or a few things

that that you learned the most from well

I think um all of my films I mean I used

to have a film project that I started

that never finished that was called a

portrait and coffees a heading as a

complete failure and the idea for that

film with you know my main experience of

filmmaking is a failure you know like

the film didn’t do as well as I had

hoped or you know people they liked as

much I thought they would or you know

and and you know I liked all the films

but you know they always feel like a

failure it’s a level and I think this

would be very spiritualizing about

failure much more so than about success

I think and

so I think all of my films sort of have

this isn’t certain kind of like a hidden

theme you know like that failure is good

and that failure is real and that this

is kind of the thing it’s kind of like

the shadow side of us is sort of you

know the part that needs expression most

and so can’t affirm you know my sex

addiction or my my character defects or

my failures all of that seems like

empowering for me and also hopefully for

others and so I think the whole

trajectory of my filmmaking has been one

incredible lesson of failure and

humiliation and the humility that comes

from humiliation in a good sense

wow I I it’s such a reverse way to kind

of perceive and and can’t imagine like

operating in that way I just in my own

experience I mean I’m not I’ve I’ve

always been kind of a film nerd and I

love movies and just diving into film

and I’ve always had this sort of secret

desire to write a screenplay one day but

just just with this podcast I mean if it

was continuously failing I’m not not

sure what I would do with that so I mean

but you see you’ve stuck with this and

you know where do you see people having

the most problems with filmmaking and

with what they’re doing with their work

I mean I think the big problem of the

world of humankind is ego you know like

we’re all you know in our egos and it’s

very hard to to you can’t can’t kill

your ego your ego is going to be with

you your whole life I mean it’s part of

life so I think the ego part is often

the part that motivates us you know to

get up in the morning and try to make a

film and to work hard at it and it’s

also the part that you know gets get the

most bruised when the world doesn’t

embrace it the way you would hoped so I

think the hardest part of it is with the

constant rejection I mean you know you

can’t put yourself out there publicly

and not experience rejection you know

it’s like you can’t you can’t love and


experience the possibility of loss you

know like those things go together so

you have to really you know it sound

like I’m very telling I I has a lot of

self-esteem where I can just say I could

take it like it hurt you know but it’s

it’s so grateful I don’t know it’s like

um no it’s a real real gift I mean

there’s this thing uh in Hinduism I

don’t know much about Hinduism but I’ve

heard it does something called the left

hand of God where you sort of like the

fastest way to God is your skin you know

like just do all the bad thing you know

that you want to do and you get this

much faster you know and it’s kind of

like that I think I think failure is the

fastest way to like overcome ego and

yeah and you know it’s slow and it’s

kind of kind of a twisted way of doing

it but I think you know I’m able to let

go increasingly not because I’m trying

to be spiritual because I’m really not

but because I just just just you know

you can’t keep getting hit against the

wall and not eventually like turn around

and go in a different direction you know

you said something along the lines of

artists tend to grow in self-importance

until they’re no longer a humble servant

of creation what does that mean you went

on to say that this means that they lose

their connection to the source of

creation and that all art is channeled

and I mean going back to the ego and

your struggle with that in filmmaking do

you ever feel like you’re you are losing

your connection to the source of

creation I mean I I lose it every day I

mean every day is every moment is like

it oh whoops I just lost it again you

know you know settings like meditation

you know you’re trying to focus and you

keep distracted you know it’s the same

thing your ego is constantly like

tripping you up

and yet that process of being tripped up

constantly is also the way you know and

it’s also the way you get to a meta

place where you can just sort of see it

all and have a different perspective on

it and it just happens

that’s incredibly wise I mean I find

what you’re saying incredibly in tune

with you know what people should be

saying so I mean when we were when we

were setting up this interview you were

talking about you know film school a bit

but are you are you still studying how

to be a better filmmaker or are you in a

teaching role now or I mean what are you

doing nowadays I mean I do teach

so I teach filmmaking but I’m also

obviously studying how to do it I mean I

I don’t feel like I know how to do it or

anything I mean I I feel you know I feel

like a fraud at the filmmaker I mean

like you know there’s a billion things I

can’t do like I can’t even you know I

can’t even like operate a camera

properly you know like what is this

button do I have no idea I’m going to

panic you know and you know I get by

just by hook or by crook and by cheating

and by begging and you know just you

know by avoiding I have a sense of what

I don’t like you know I’m a big fan of

the poet Wallace Stevens and he has this

expression of this idea that you know

poetry is a phone call of modern poetry

at the finding of a satisfaction and I

think that’s what I’m always looking for

I’m looking for some kind of deep

satisfaction and I know it when I feel

it that’s all I’ve got all I’ve got is

that I know when I feel that is right

and I’m like ah yes that that that is

good that that I’m excited by that I can

get behind that and most the time it’s

like no I don’t think that good I can’t

get behind that and when I find that I

find it and then that’s what I put out

there and and I hope other people you

know find it satisfying too but I think

there’s no there’s nothing else just

encompass of satisfaction and then

there’s also this kind of other compass

which is kind of like a a dowsing rod I

was like where are the fault line you

know where is where the compliment where

is the discomfort whereas the

embarrassing bits and I’m like oh

there’s something I’m seeing some some

tension here something unconscious and

unresolved and this is where I need to

go either myself when someone else you

know like why are you getting uptight

right now like what is this about and

that’s interesting you know that’s where

that’s where the growth is that could be

edge of the envelope

yeah we’re talking a lot about your work

but how has this affected your

connection to other people in

relationships and love relationships and

friendships and working relationships

how I mean how does that how does it how

does it relate to those those things

well I don’t feel like I’m very good at

friendships or the social realm I mean

I’ve never been great at the social

realm in general you know fairly well

adjusted to guests and socially a a

fearful ringing I’m just afraid of

people and usually uncomfortable but I’m

such a such a workaholic you know I’m so

obsessed with filmmaking that I don’t

really put the amount of energy into

friendships that I think would be

healthier and really my films are kind

of like my my you know my debutante

outing you know it’s like this is how I

sort of engage with the world and I

don’t have a lot of other engagements

besides it and the people I work with on

the films are really my my community and

the main way interact with people you

know I also are married and have two

little children so between the

filmmaking and the parenting you know

there wasn’t a lot of time for that but

I told thee until they for that I think

it’s wonderful and important I think on

your deathbed we think about is your

relationships not you know your movies

that you made right so I think it’s a

failing of mine it’s not something I’m

quoting I haven’t quite mastered that

part of it yeah

yeah I mean I think I think for all of

us I don’t think anyone has truly

mastered you know the art of

relationships I mean I think I think

some people are better at it than others

and or some people pretend to be better

at it than others but I think we all

kind of I mean speaking for myself I

definitely struggle with that as well

but you at some point you did eventually

choose to get married and you did choose

to have kids which from the viewpoint of

I am a sex addict in 2006 and I mean

that was a nap 11 years ago and there’s

a lot of change and growth and change

happening there but I

what led you to move to this new

progression of your life where you felt

like you could commit to one person that

accepted you and and saw you for who you

were and you wanted to kind of procreate

with I mean two things one was you know

again the left hand of God by indulge in

the sex addiction you know I hit bottom

and I was like okay this is not working

this is not making me happy this is not

where it is and I had to really go there

to really understand that the Mirage was

a mirage so you know the whole sex

addiction thing you know I was I got

that a while ago in terms of like

getting married having kids you know I

kind of had this thing like oh cinema

like my religion and I’m sort of married

to the art of cinema and there’s no room

for anything else in there and on the

purist and I’m a priest or whatever he

had some kind of image of self that was

was like that and I actually was in a

DMT group like would meet once a month

tonight we started experimenting with

sort of combinations of drugs and at one

point some would say you should try LSD

and ecstasy together it’s really

interesting I was like I never would

have thought of that okay and I think

that’s very kind of an intense trip that

was also kind of a very difficult trip

and I started kind of questioning my my

life and myself you know like I think a

really hard question to ask oneself that

I think is really an important question

as oneself is like am I wrong about

everything you know like it’s or

something just wrong with me like is all

my all my assumptions kind of based on

some fantasy and like planteth got to

that place and I was like well I’m not

happy something’s not working you know

what is it and it is it me and what am I

doing wrong and I really asked it

because I honestly to myself you know

cause usually I’m busy sort of

justifying my decisions to myself um and

I realized you know the art thing isn’t

doing it for me anymore like I can’t you

know it’s harder to get out of bed and

keep doing it like is something missing

and I realized I really need some kind

of grounding in in the humanity like in

the world and in the end the ancestors

and in the future like I needed

something to

I’m a to this earth and that I was going

to die if I didn’t

probably from illness but that you know

my will to live what sort of diminishing

I could feel my will to live shrinking

you know shriveling up and I realized I

needed something else and I and I

thought you know I think I need I need

to need a family I need a wife and

children and and then I said it was you

know in that mindset and I met Mandy and

then you know we had kids but it came

out of this feeling this drug inside

there was something wrong with my life

and it wasn’t sustainable anymore

yeah I mean it’s so powerfully human

because you have such a strong and this

is what I admire about your work and and

you and just knowing you now to this

conversation which is I feel like a

pretty deep conversation you’re such an

honest person and I think that you use

that as your advantage and whereas most

people don’t you know they will kind of

placate things and they will tell you

what what they think you want to hear

and and it’s almost as if the

detectors for you know all of us have

changed like we can tell now when when

someone is is bullshitting us and it

just doesn’t fly anymore doesn’t work


and so when you when you encounter

someone who is being honest and in a raw

sense of truth it’s refreshing I mean I

mean what is your what are your thoughts

on life after death or I mean have you

had any experiences that have have shown

you the non-physical world I mean there

has to do you believe that there’s a

sense of more than just here yeah I mean

I totally have many times usually you

know through drugs but it seems clear to

me that this is not the end and that

this is a very partial view of reality

and a very partial sliver of it and

there seems clear it seems clear to me

that there’s a God that we are God that

God is moving through us and that

there’s something you know that we are

we are the leaves of a tree and the tree

is immortal and our bodies are not

obviously and you know we fall from the

tree and I don’t know what happens in

terms of our consciousness like if if

the personality continues after death or

not or if it just the energy of the self

of the conscious that behind us just

continues in another form I don’t know

but I know that there’s something beyond

me that will continue to endure beyond

me and that’s obvious to me so then if

you have the choice I mean

would you reincarnate here would you do

it again would you like experience this

earth plane again I mean

I think I mean I don’t know I don’t know

anything and it’s kind of all I got and

that’s you know that’s like that’s a

good sum total of my of my knowledge but

you know I’m in the kind of A Course in

Miracles I really like resonate with

that book and you know when I doubt I

sort of kind of trust the course of

saying and so I think that we’re we’re

not here to reincarnate I mean we do in

contact possibly I don’t know but I

think we’re here to like become one with

God which i think is not about

reincarnating but just being the bee you

know the eternal spirit that we already

are and just realizing it or waking up

to it you know so I’m not thinking in

terms of like coming back I’m just in

terms of like moving forward to the next

level of evolution whatever that is I

mean I think you said it I think we we

know we are God and there is something

else higher or something else I I’m not

sure how much I believe in this sort of

old man figure and I feel I feel as if

religion has you know divided and

conquered us and so I’m not huge on

organized systems of being a belief in

paradigms and ways of thinking but you

know there there is a distinct sense of

connection when I’m in an ayahuasca

journey and there is absolutely no

question in my mind that we we are just

these very small expects of light and

there’s this massive framework that is

beyond our conception beyond our ability

to understand and conceive and we are

just here kind of living through you

know life and living through our

everyday and some people access that

some people get to access that and other

people have absolutely no idea about it

and you know some people when you

mentioned the when you say the word drug

and the propaganda runs so deep that

people turn off and they just stop

listening and it’s it’s quite sad that

they will never get a chance to

experience you know firsthand what it

feels like to be in the midst of and LSD

journey or an MDMA experience or an

ayahuasca just I mean it it’s it’s an

interesting state of affairs here in the

world and I just appreciate your ability

to be so open with your connection with

the drug use and film on to my next

question here with with the the larger

scope of Hollywood and your connection

to you know just actors directors and

how do you feel about that how do you

feel about the industry I’m a very mixed

feelings you know you know I love the

art form and I and I really and I love a

lot of Hollywood movies and I think a

lot of them are brilliant and wonderful

and I’m not against you know Hollywood

or anything I you know there are things

in it that you know don’t interest me or

that I find dollar you know they don’t

make me feel lives but there’s so much

good stuff and I’m always trying to sort

of move towards it I’m you know I’m

trying to trying to film for five years

with you know actors name actors

attached and I’ve got some matrix

attached and some money but not enough

money and and you know it’s a very very

bibbling thing I mean I think recently

I’ve been feeling like you know I really

been trying to like become the person

that could get into that Club and I’ve

never quite gotten into the club you

know I feel and I’ve tried really hard

and and I think maybe I just will never

get in that Club and maybe I don’t

really belong to that Club and maybe

they may understand that you know

they’re like you know you know we don’t

buy it you don’t think we don’t think

you fit in here you would not be a good

member of our club and and you know they

might be right you know I’m still trying

to sort of figure out

way to like tame I build and feed my

family and also make work that I find

you know true and alive and vital and

you kind of can’t avoid Hollywood’s

completely if you’re doing that I think

um there’s some interaction that has to

happen but you know I’m just trying to

find my way and I I trip up a lot you

know and I think part of my way how to

do with tripping so it’s it’s all good

is just a fraught very fraud and

and and I haven’t given up but on some

level I give up you know it’s like I

guess you have to do both at the same


very interesting so coffee we’re doing

something a little bit new now with the

show with 2017 I want you to just give

us for the listening audience now we’re

going to move into the bonus content for

members only here so I just want you to

while we’re still in the public realm

here can you give us your your website

and where people can find you please

sure my website is just my first and

last name comma VA is a heady calm and

the CA veh veh EDI it’s a hard thing to


okay we’ll definitely make that

available for anyone listening guys if

you want to hear the rest of this

episode which we’re about to conduct you

can get into the member side and that

will lead you there guys you’ve been

listening to the human experience my

guest has been cavae hee hee kava is a

headache I’ve been mispronouncing his

name this whole time but you can find

him at the link that we will provide

below I highly suggest that you check

out his his work his movies very very

phenomenal stuff cavae once again thank

you so much for being here guys you will

hear from us next week thank you so much

for listening



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