Transcript for #38 Love in the time of CoronaVirus, Pandemic Policy Failures, Campaign Trail w/ Marianne Williamson

the human experiences in session my name

is Xavier katana my guest for today is

marianne williamson marianne is an

American author spiritual leader

politician and activist she has written

13 books including for New York Times

number one bestsellers she is in the

she’s the founder of project angel food

a volunteer delivery service food

delivery program that serves homebound

people with HIV and AIDS and other

life-threatening illnesses she’s also

the co-founder of Peace Alliance a

non-profit education and advocacy

organization supporting peace building

projects she later received national

attention attention attention as the

results of her frequent appearances on

the Oprah Oprah Winfrey Show and she is

quite regarded as Oprah’s spiritual

advisor Mary Ann is such a pleasure

thank you so much for being here you you

spent some time running for the

Democratic National Convention so I

can’t think of a better time to have you

here than tonight with everything that’s

going on in the world today

welcome to hxp thank you thank you so

much for having me so Mary Ann I mean

let’s let’s just lay the foundation a

bit you know if you could tell us what

brought you into the line of service and

what brought you into this frame of work

why did you decide to run for the

nomination I grew up in a generation you

know we would when I was in college we

would read Alan Watts and ramadasa in

the morning and we would go to vietnam

war anti-war protests in the afternoon

the cultural generation revolution at

that time the 60s and the 70s was all of

the above it wasn’t bifurcated between

spiritual social political it was sexual

it was musical it was political it was

spiritual and that’s always been my

comfort zone that when you’re seeking to

change change

just multi-dimensional as my life

developed my what felt to me like the

greatest service that which just

unfolded in front of me had to do with

teaching metaphysical principles and

writing about metaphysical spiritual

principles particularly those based on

set of books called A Course in Miracles

but I’d been raised with a lot of

political reference and activism and

that had always been important to me it

had just been sort of the minor chord

and the major chord interprofessional E

had had to do with my work in the

spiritual world and from that came

activism having to do with nonprofit

organizations the things you mentioned I

was very active during the AIDS crisis

founded aids organizations and so forth

peace organizations etc and I my

political evolution is mirrored in a

story I once heard that was written by

Protestant theologian and the story I

don’t know what the title would be but

for me it’s the story of the transition

to a conscious form a good Samaritan to

a conscious Samaritan I was a good

Samaritan in the sense that the Good

Samaritan was someone who saw a beggar

and gave the moms but the Good Samaritan

continued down the road and saw another

beggar and gave them alms and then the

Good Samaritan continued down the road

and saw another beggar and gave them

alms and the way the story goes is that

at a certain point the Good Samaritan

said to himself why are there are so

many beggars so what I’ve seen and that

to me means he became a conscious

Samaritan he asked what is going on

systemically here that this continues to

be the case for so many people and what

I’ve seen in my career over 35 years is

that something started to change

something started to change in the

eighties but at first it was situational

first of all I had to do with something

like AIDS which had nothing to do

specifically with the social economic

system although it did with the slowness

of the

of the system to respond but what

started to happen then let’s say after

2000 etc there is a level of despair

there’s the level of economic tension

and economic anxiety that is experienced

by what seems to be the average person

in a way that makes no sense in the

richest country in the world so I began

to see up close and personal the ravages

that so many people are experiencing

simply because the resources of this

country have been squeezed too much into

the hands of too few and so it felt to

me like we that the people who are

seeing this up close and the people who

have a deeper understanding of cause and

effect and how these things operate on

deeper systemic levels should be the

last people sitting out these larger

questions and so I began to realize how

many of these these reduce ravages that

people experience are due to simply bad

public policy if people can’t get it if

people are living with chronic tension

and anxiety because they don’t know what

will happen if they get sick they don’t

know what will happen if one of their

children get sick they don’t know how

they’ll send their kids to college they

don’t know how that will get out from

under these college ones they don’t know

how they’ll ever be able to get in the

game in their life then they can see

every therapist and every coach and

every plural person and meditate all

they want but we’ve got to deal with the

fact that that’s treating the symptoms

we’ve got to treat the cause and to me

that meant that meant a much higher

level of consciousness within the

political field that I didn’t see and

out of that I thought well if you want

to hear those things said maryann oh

you’re gonna have to say them and so I

did Wow and you know you so you know

very much so you have been in the belly

of the beast and you’ve seen you know

the inner workings of the system you you

got in front of the bullet as it were

you – you’ve got into the line of fire

and you know now you’ve seen sort of the

pratfalls of what it’s like you know to

run for president

and you know what did you what did you

see the inner workings of the system how

did how did you relate to the way things

are set up when you when a person runs

for office the system is even more

corrupt than I feared but the people of

the United States are even more

wonderful than I would have hoped that

was my experience the what we have is a

campaign media industrial complex and it

amount to the equivalent the modern

equivalent of backroom you know men with

cigars who in the backroom were deciding

who the candidates would be that’s what

happened in 2016 and the Democratic

Party and we know how that worked out

and it’s basically what happened here as

well but let me be very very clear and

also very careful here the overriding

need I believe numero uno is to make

sure that Donald Trump does not get a

second term that is where I live in my

heart is where I live in every part of

me so I don’t want any criticism of the

of the system to be mistaken for any

comment that I believe you know we

should not support the Democratic

nominee but this is a very serious

problem I’ll tell you that I know what

my experience was which was that after

the second debate i am i hi was the most

googled person in in 49 states and you

saw my name and a lot of media and then

three days later after the second debate

boy the hatchet came down somebody had

clearly said clearly had said get that

woman off the stage and the way I can

say it so clear it’s because it was so

clearly strategized all the words were

the same clear talking points she’s an

tiebacks which I’m not actually I and

you know you we’re living at a time when

if you

the most nuanced conversation you can

have the slightest questioning of

anything having to do with Big Pharma

and boy they come at you so she’s anti

Docs it was said that I’m anti medicine

which once again could not be further

from the truth anti science which once

again could not be further from the


she’s dangerous she’s crazy she’s a

grifter like we’re talking about some

you know which is in the Middle Ages

here or something and that that

narrative was created it was every way

you could you couldn’t open a computer

you couldn’t look on television that

somebody wasn’t talking about how I’m

this dangerous crazy wacko and so that’s

how it works they they get rid of you if

they don’t like it and you say is there

a day yeah there’s definitely a day and

however however there are two different

political universes and this is this is

this is extremely important there is

that that I’ve just described the

pundits and media and the political

operatives and the DNC and all of that

yep it’s true it’s real however there’s

another political universe and that

other political universe is magnificent

and I saw that as well and that has to

do with the voters particularly the

voters in those early primary states

Iowa New Hampshire South Carolina and

Nevada the people in those states are

very aware of the importance of their

the importance of their their vote and

they I’m telling you they are up to the

job and to stand in front of voters in

those states it’s it’s it’s a humbling

experience it is such a privilege they

they are tough on you but rightfully so

they kick the tires but rightfully so

they ask you tough questions and you’ve

got to know what you’re talking about

and what I was very clear about was that

if the DNC had just gotten out of the

way you know those those debates are

nothing but a reality TV show it’s

ridiculous we had 20 people

at the beginning or 21 some very very

intelligent people with very very good

ideas but what the DNC did was they

created bars that made it and only

people in their club could possibly make


with a token here okay I mean it was so

obvious to anybody like really stepping

back to look at this and you know the

political parties are not even mentioned

in our Constitution George Washington

warned us against them in his farewell

address saying that they would form

factions of men who would be more

concerned with their with their faction

than with their country now I think that

in 2016 for instance if the DNC had not

put their fingers on the scale it would

have been either Hillary or Bernie but I

think whoever it was the people would

have felt good about the vote and I

think that Trump would not be president

today so then I think the role of the


should be to facilitate democracy it

shouldn’t be to dictate democracy

shouldn’t be manipulate voters I believe

and going forward you know this is this

is going to be true with everything

related to the coronavirus – we’re going

to have to make a lot of changes on the

other side of this and I believe for

instance that everybody who is a serious

candidate for president should have been

given the equal amount of time in front

of the voters and so forth so anyway

that was my experience my experience I

experienced the vilification chin I

experienced the demonization it’s very

odd to be hated for being someone that

you’re not you know there there are

reasons for people to dislike me based

on my policies or even based on maybe

some truths about me I’m certainly not a

perfect human being but the narrative

that was created that’s it’s not even

who I am

so that was my experience but that was

then and this is now and I haven’t

endorsed Bernie Sanders and because I

believe that his policies I mean

obviously every person who runs for

president does so thinking well I’d be

the best you know once I was out and I

do regret leaving actually because I

could have

through New Hampshire and when I saw

what Yang and steyr the votes they got

in in New Hampshire and I thought well I

got it done that I thought that that was

the amount that you leave because it’s

do you Milly aiming to stay whatever it

was what it was and now we got we got a

much bigger fish to fry

and then just our own personal dramas

now I have endorsed Bernie Sanders but

as I said whoever the Democrat is I will

be there with all my heart and with all

my soul I think that this president his

policies are nothing short of a menace

in it and a true threat to our democracy

and I am filled with passion as I’m sure

many of your listeners are we’re making

sure that there is a he goes into

retirement as of November so you know

Mary and I truly respect and appreciate

your experience and your perspective of

you know what you experience on the

campaign trail and and with the

Democratic convention the nomination the

way it works I mean it does seem like it

is very much rigged and so I think

getting that inside sort of perspective

I think is crucial

so I you know thank you for helping me

set the stage now if we fast forward to

present day we are up against the wall

against you know a pandemic global

pandemic that you know is now an

everyday reality for us where we are in

a crisis now and it seems like the

policies of the current administration

are so backwards that you know it’s

putting people’s lives in danger would

you agree with this yes unfortunately I

would agree with him and you know I

wonder to know how what do you think we

should be doing differently right now in

regards to the coronavirus well there

there are a couple of things here first

of all is personal and

second is political on a personal level

we all have to take care of our own

nervous systems as we go through this

you have to emotionally and

psychologically change gear in order to

be able to emotionally psychologically

survive this and thrive in the

experience we are a very adrenaline

driven Society it is the the common

manner of things for people to run

around like chickens with our heads off

chopped off and a lot of the rushing

around that we do really at the deepest

level is a way of avoiding some of the

deeper work that we need to be doing as

human beings on the planet at this time

Blaise Pascal the French philosopher

said that all of man’s problems can be a

stem from man’s inability to sit quietly

in a room alone so this is is forcing us

to be reflective it’s forcing us to go

deeper it’s forcing us to maybe read

some of those books that we’ve always

talked about how we wanted to read but

never one got around to it’s forcing us

to be available should we wish to deeper

conversations with friends and loved

ones that maybe we had thought it’s

forcing us if we really want to get

through this to not make it only about

ourselves to realize that there are

people for most of us who were in far

more of a risk category than we are

people who are older people who live

alone people who have underlying

conditions that this is definitely time

to check in with your friends and I have

if if people go – Marianne calm I have

quite a few video sharings and

meditations also I’m making one of my

meditations just putting them out there

for people meditation is a way to

literally emit different brainwaves so

that the fear and panic that is among

other things so depressive of your

immune system begins to dissolve

otherwise this thing can emotionally

overwhelmed people and so that’s what I

meant by taking care of your own nervous


now secondly however

there is a political issue a big

political issue here this virus did not

emanate did here in the United States

but there is a huge political issue that

has to do with how unprepared we were

why we were so unprepared and the almost

criminal neglect that was displayed by

our government which allowed weeks to

pass by before we even began to get on

top of it the way we needed to and which

in some ways is a trajectory that

continues today that has to do with the

fact that for the last 40 years as we

know there’s been this massive transfer

of wealth in this country change and tax

laws through corporate subsidies through

the unbelievable undue influence of

money particularly corporate money on

our government we have transferred huge

amount of wealth into the hands of the

proverbial one percent so that one

percent control more wealth in the

bottom 90% now where’s that money come

from the money has come from withdrawal

of resources to education withdrawing of

resources to to public investments and

that public investment is investment in

the common good we and we have we have

laid aside what has traditionally been

an accepted balance in the United States

between the the protection of individual

liberty and protection of the common

good and we’ve moved so far in the

direction of individual liberty but

remember that individual liberty for

instance the individual liberty of

capitalism it can only be it can only be

enjoyed by those who have the capital to

participate but when people are so

living you’ve got tens of millions of

Americans who have been living with

chronic tension and anxiety

because of the things I said they don’t

know what they’ll do if they’re if they

get sick or their kids get sick or how

they’ll send their kids to college or

how they’ll get under these kundur these

college loans

back took us to a place where

40% of Americans did not have the means

to cover an unexpected $400 expenditure

we were in that place before this crisis

so when you said we’re in a crisis for

those people they already were in a

crisis let’s remember that we talked

about lockdown there were people who

tens of millions of Americans who were

economically locked down before this so

when you say that that money was

withheld from those resources one of the

things that was held from withheld from

are all the various agencies that you

don’t necessarily hear about on a daily

basis you only hear about them when

something goes wrong everything from The

Weather Service to the CDC and the FDA

you know we had the Boeing max disaster

why because the FAA was to under the

thumb of Boeing we had the opioid crisis

why because FDA is to under the thumb of

Big Pharma and on and on and on we have

so many of the environmental dangers

that we have why because they because

the EPA has been under too much the

thumb of fossil fuel industries etc we

had 47 pandemic centers and the

president had closed 37 of them he has

been he has been withdrawing resources

from the CDC etc and then even when it

happened and even when we have in

America we have in every area and every

area of problem we have the geniuses

here we have the best practices we know

what to do but what but but the

president is among a group of people who

are so ideologically obsessed with

allowing the marketplace like the

marketplace has become some false God in

America start 40 years the whole idea of

trickle-down economics was the idea that

marketing forces market forces should be

the organizing principle of the unit of

Western civilization certainly American

civilization and government should get

out of the way which means deregulate

they called all regulations job killers

well excuse me they were health

regulations and safety regular

so that even when this began and that’s

what we’re living through right now even

today when the president had signed the

defense production Act this is what FDR

did after after Pearl Harbor after Pearl

Harbor FDR brought together all of the

car manufacturers and that I need this

many planes and I need this many tanks

and I may need as many ships and the car

manufacturer said well President

Roosevelt we are patriotic Americans and

as soon as we’ve sold the cars we need

to sell we’re gonna get together and

we’re gonna build those cars and we’re

gonna build those tanks I’m gonna build

those ships are looking to build those

planes and President Roosevelt said

gentlemen I don’t think you understand

you will not be building cars until I

get this many ships and this many tanks

and this many planes it was a mimicry of

that which led us years later to pass a

defense production Act which gave

President Trump the the power should he

have chosen to to say to all kinds of

industries get these ventilators may get

these respirators may get these masks

made before you do anything else now

what happened he got pushed back from

from a from business and I I want to

know who those we need names of who gave

him that push back because people have

died because of that push back and

President Trump gets on it says oh it’s

so great they’re all calling me and they

want to help well of course they want to

but this is a national emergency we

can’t take that time so you have the

governor such as Andrew Cuomo in New

York saying we need this material and

the president even iterating today we’re

not a shipping clerk go get your own

because he is so ideologically opposed

to the federal government directing

anything as opposed to letting the free

market do its thing beep in a moment

like this of national emergency so

that’s the moment we’re living it now

when you said what does the average

individual do with the

every individual should do you know

Martin Luther King said we are

materially passive but we are

spiritually active let’s be

intellectually active right now

everybody needs to be clear about the

issues that I just talked about

everybody needs to be clear about what

what is the argument going on even right

now in Congress where there are those

who say no we need to have this

multi-billion dollar bailout of these

huge industries now remember these huge

industries already got the two thousand

two thousand seventeen two trillion

dollar tax cuts where we three cents of

every dollar went to the very richest

Americans and corporations so even as is

the President himself has said they have

a cushion the people we need to be

bailing out are those people who have no

cushion and honestly don’t know for sure

if they will be able to eat a week from

now yes so when you say what can we do

for obviously in your own community find

out what’s happening in your community

how you can help drop off groceries many

people are volunteering make masks I

mean there are all kinds of things on

different and it’s beautiful what you’re

seeing people being there for each other

but we also have to recognize the lack

of conscience and ethics that not only

has been part of public policy but is

even now and the people need to be loud

and the people need to be aware and the

people need to be very active you know

we I I I talk about this stuff so much I

don’t know if I already mentioned it on

the pass but you went oh I know what it

was you and I talked about it before the

podcast yeah Tennant lieutenant governor

of Texas said the other day that he

thinks that there are grandparents in

America who would be willing to die so

that their grandchildren would have a

better economy in the future that’s Jim

Jones talk that’s saying literally die

we should die for a particular kind of

economic order and by the way know those

kids need their grandparents is who they

need yes Oh so every America needs to be

deeply aware

we need to be aware of what’s happening

who’s saying what and in November and

that’s gonna be a problem too

we could all the voter suppression

effort which could be aided by this

thank you very much we need to remember

who got it right right now and make sure

they’re in Congress they’re in the White

House and they’re in the Senate and

those who are talking in ways that would

would destabilize the lives of so many

millions of Americans further please

make sure they retire from political

office Wow

I mean there’s there’s so much there

Mary and I loved each and every single

one of your words because you’re so


you’re so pinpointed on exactly what we

need to do to look at this we need to

communicate more clearly this is

something that you said to me and we

need to be very precise on you know

what’s going on in the system what has

been going on in the system and what we

need to do to adjust and to fix this so

that it doesn’t happen again

and you know it seems like we are in a

crisis of of and where we’re we’re

screaming out for you know this battle

cry of visions and you know we we need

to be very careful how we respond to

this because if we don’t respond in the

right way we’re gonna be catapulted back

into the system that led us here in the

in the first place well as you and I

were talking about before the podcast

it could even be worse than that because

you know William bar our Attorney

General was floating just the other day

the idea of suspending just for this

period of time

certain constitutional protections also

another thing I have some concern about

I have to say you know everybody’s

talking about bringing out the National

Guard we need to have a bit

sophisticated conversation and ask very

meaningful questions what exactly are

they coming out for know on one hand

they’re coming out to build field

hospitals great I’m all for that they’re

coming out to be able to help with with

medical situations I’m all for that but

let’s be very clear here where

the thing that I’m very concerned about

in addition to the medical issues have

to do with not only how are sick people

going to self-harm those but how are

well people going to survive this how

wealthy people going to survive this who

don’t have the money and aren’t working

now I believe what we should have is I

think it should be a $2,000 stipend

every week that this is that this lasts

for every American I think we should

immediately halt all those college loans

etc we should be talking about you know

you see all those trucks that

everybody’s showing on the online and

everything all these videos of people

are seeing all these trucks coming in

and they’re gonna have National Guard’s

people well we need to be really careful

here what are they going to be allowed

to do what are they not going to be

allowed to do if you tell me they’re

going to be building full field

hospitals etc I’m so glad they’re coming

but they’re going to are they going to

be patrolling the streets I mean what

are they going to be doing exactly

because if things get too rough I’m

sorry but you know Americans are so

reactive we own it we wait until the

problem happens and we talk about what

are we going to do we need to be

responsive in this moment we need to be

several steps ahead that’s how we got

here was because collectively we don’t

talk several steps ahead so let’s say

there are food shortages that’s what I’m

concerned about what if people cannot

get food there could be food riots I

want to know the National Guard is not

going to be squashing the rioting of

desperate people I want to make sure

they will not be rioting which is why

money has to get to people quickly so so

we have all of these things that we need

to be thinking about and I think that

the conversations that we’re having

among ourselves your podcast is an

example am i putting out videos on my

sites etc a lot of people are the

conversation the buzz the people that

people are the things that people are

talking about makes a lot of difference

and Americans are very good about that

when we get a buzz about something when

we’re having a conversation about

something there’s nothing we can’t do

the problem is that we are too easily

distracted and we’re too easily

‘lord away from the conversation about

things that matter most yeah I mean

Marianne I’m not sure if you’ve heard of

this yet or not but I just read an

article today I posted it in our

community there you know this the

stimulus bill that they’re they’re

passing you know it’s it blows my mind

because the the 1.5 trillion dollars

that they were able to with you know the

the swipe of a pen

it was immediately released that they

were gonna put out 1.5 trillion dollars

but when it comes to helping people like

normal people like you and me you know

it’s taking them so long but something

that I saw in you know to your point was

that the stimulus when it comes out it’s

going to create a new digital dollar you

know so now I I think you know in this

in this idea that things can be worse

you know this third option that when

it’s reassembled when it all comes back

together that perhaps they can push us

into more control um you know how about

a cashless society for you I don’t know

I hear so much I see both sides you know

it’s almost like you know there’s a

there’s a part in the course in

miracles’ where it says nothing in the

material world is unholy or holy except

as determined by the purpose it is given

the consciousness of people so I agree

with what you’re saying you could say

things about the digital dollar I don’t

care what the policy is if it’s in the

hands of conscious people it’s going to

be one thing if it’s in the hands of

unconscious people is going to be

another thing and I think that what we

have to be is extremely alert that you

know this is how we got here people

checked out from politics people thought

oh you know there are other people

handling those things other people are

thinking about those things and not

voting and not participating this is you

know so much of what is of what is

happening now including the fact that

our position president this did not come

out of nowhere this the this this this

this deeper problem has been

accumulating for 40 years now where our

government has been so taken hostage

by forces that were just there they it

is capitalism without a conscience yeah

it is capitalism completely untethered

to any ethical and moral concern for

people or for planet but in too many

cases we we weren’t careful when we

voted or we didn’t vote so there’s only

one antidote to any of this and that is

a mass awakening of the American people

and when Jefferson said that the only

safe repository for power in the United

States is in the hands of the people boy

the older I got the more I realized that

is so true you know it’s kind of like

when I think that women are told us a

lot that if you know you’re attacked in

a parking lot or anything like that just

start yelling just start yelling Martin

Luther King said that your life begins

to end and the day you stop talking

about things that matter so we have

plenty of time we have plenty of time to

to to read about what’s going on to read

about the intelligent you know read the

intelligent voices don’t check out

whatever you do don’t check out this is

as important a moment in American

history as we have ever had I agree I

agree I think this is so crucial of a

moment now more than ever now is I mean

if anything I think you know I’ve always

felt Marianne that this is there was

something on the the threshold that we

were you know on the precipice of

something huge massive that was gonna

change everything and you know now it’s

here it is here and you know what I see

with people you know I get it I

understand their GABA receptors are full

with cortisol they’re stressed out

people are stressed their 401ks are

eviscerated they have nothing left

you know the financially they’re hurting

everyone is sort of locked you know in

in their houses and you know I mean

that’s that’s if people are you know

doing their job in in response to this

virus I mean there are people in Florida

and they’re on the beach you know

it’s it just shows a lack of respect a

lack of responsibility a lack of

leadership I mean there’s so many things

wrong with the way people are perceiving

this and it’s I think it’s crucial now

because Marianne I mean I don’t think

that we’re the worst of it has hit us

yet and I’m not trying I don’t want to

scare anyone you know I’m not I’m not

trying to fear porn this whatsoever I’m

just being as much of a realist as I can

be and you know based on the data that

we see it seems like you know the worst

of this is yet to come you know when

when they tell you when they tell you

that there’s no more room in the

hospitals because you know there was not

enough action taken and you know no

matter what you cannot go there you will

not be seen it’s it’s a very frightening

possibility it’s a frightening it’s so

you know I understand that people are

panicked you know I I had a moment to go

to the the grocery store the other day

and it was so eerie

so post-apocalyptic I mean everyone was

so panicked there there each staying six

feet away from each other you know what

I understand I get it and you know they

but you know there was this palpable

fear that you just don’t you don’t I’ve

never seen before experience I think

also a palpable recognition that we’re

all in this together and so this is a

you know there’s a line that every

problem comes bearing its own solution I

think we also have a common sense of our

vulnerability right now not only a boner

ability in common with other people in

this country but a sense of our common

vulnerability with people around the


now remember social change does not come

about and never has because the majority

wake up and get it the majority didn’t

wake up one day and say let’s end

slavery the majority didn’t wake up one

day and say let’s give women the right

to vote the majority didn’t wake up one

day and

let’s end segregation in the American

South social change comes about because

of a few people usually considered

outrageous radicals by the status quo of

their time who have a better idea so

let’s remember many people are awakening

right now yes you’re right there are a

lot of people who are just going into

isolation and fear and panic but they’re

out of people having deeper

conversations deeper thoughts deeper

recognitions now than ever before

let’s let’s remember that a lot of a lot

of what’s most important is not visible

to the physical eye so when you said

it’s going to get worse you know hello

at the during during World War two when

Churchill famously said this is not the

end this is not even the beginning of

the end it’s but it is the end of the


you know Roosevelt and Churchill and

those guys didn’t talk to people like

they were children they didn’t pretend

this wasn’t going to last a while you

know I have felt for a long time I’ve

talked about how in America we have a

crisis of adulthood too many generations

since World War two too many generations

didn’t have to go through anything

didn’t have to cut their teeth didn’t

ever grow up too many American men have

acted and been like little boys to

American women have acted and been like

little girls we’re not going to be

immature children after this man and you

know what there’s a there’s a lot in of

course in miracles’ where it says it

isn’t up to you what you learn it is

merely up to you whether you learn

through joy or through pain the the

human race must evolve we will not

survive we must otherwise we must shift

from an economic to a humanitarian

bottom line the the guarding principle

of American public policy has got to

shift from that which creates short-term

corporate profit to that which helps

people thrive we must get there or we

will not survive and it is experiences

like this it is proving it

not even that are going to that is

proving to us even right now with what’s

happening with the president and others

saying yeah we don’t really need to

direct it you know what we can let the

private sector handle this people are

dying because of that Oh

so this is deep it’s transformative but

you know where there’s love there cannot

be fear just like where there’s light

there cannot be darkness darkness is the

absence of light it’s not a thing of

itself and fear is simply where the mind

goes when it’s not concentrating on love

the question is who can I help how can I

be of service how can I contribute and

we are being called to co-create and you

and I are doing what we can here on this

podcast by having a conversation we’re

joining our resources yours and mine and

we do our best to have a conversation

that matters

you know Werner Erhard said you can live

your life one of two ways you can either

live your life out of circumstance or

you can live your life out of a vision

so if all we do is react to circumstance

that’s one way to live but if you’re

living your life out of a vision you

were understanding where things are

wrong and you are you are creating a

vision for what you want things to be on

the other side of this and yeah it’s

tough and you know what all that means

is that we need to toughen up now it’s

so true it’s so pristine and I mean it

it we you know we are we were a culture

of you know people at the most minor

inconvenience you know we would you know

throw a fit you know you’re sure in your

car you’re you’re aging out you know at

the most little thing so you know I want

to rewind a little bit I want to talk

about you know what you say about the

American government and democracy you

know I want to talk about you know on

your website you talk about you describe

the American government as a little bit

more than a system of legalized bribery

where you say that it’s abandoned its

primary function as stated in the

Declaration of Independence

you know what function is it that the

American government has abandoned and

you know how has the influence of

corporations and autocracy how are those

things playing into what democracy

has been abandoned well first of all I

want to make clear I’m a romantic about

American democracy

so my criticism of what has occurred in

no way as a statement that I don’t

believe in the possibilities of American

democracy I very much believe in the

possibilities of American democracy and

we have too many people in America today

we seem to have these two major

categories one are people who only want

to talk about what we’ve done right and

have no listening for what what the

shadows are that we need to correct and

there’s another category though which I

believe is just as unbalanced people who

only have a listening for what America

has done wrong and don’t have any any

any listening for what we’ve done right

we haven’t done everything wrong so

let’s go back to the beginning in our

Declaration of the independence it says

and that is think of the Declaration of

Independence as our mission statement it

says that we are as as Lincoln would

refer to it later

dedicated to the proposition that all

men are created equal it says that all

all men are created equal it says that

all men are endowed by God all men have

god-given inalienable rights to life and

to liberty and to the pursuit of

happiness then it says that instance

that governments are instituted to

secure those rights now that was radical

in 1776 and it’s radical today because

it was a complete repudiation a complete

overthrow of them anarchical and

aristocratic system in the monarch

achill and aristocratic system the idea

was that God had given power to the king

and his rich friends the aristocracy and

that they were entitled to the major

resources and no one else was we were

completely turning that paradigm on its

ear instead we would create a society in

which all men had the inalienable rights

of God of life liberty and the pursuit

of happiness that governments are

instituted to secure those right and

wait for it that the people have the

right should that government not be

securing those rights it is the right of


people to alter it or to abolish it that

was extraordinary

it created a this was not just a step

forward and the political possibilities

on earth but also morally and

spiritually it was the idea that we

would to the best of our ability create

a society in which all people would have

a chance to soar that’s where it began

which was an extraordinary an

extraordinary light within you

humanity’s consciousness but it’s also

where it got gnarly because out of the

56 signers of the Declaration of

Independence 41 of them were slave

owners so what that means is we have

always from our very beginnings been

both we have this character illogical by

polarity in the DNA of the a of the of

the United States we are on one hand

built on principles more aspirational

and more enlightened than any that have

ever been the founding core of a nation

and we have been from the beginning we

have had forces that represented the

most wicked the most violent

transgression against the principles on

which we purport to stamp that is the

American story it is played out

generation after generation and you know

what no less in ours than than any other

now if you look at it over time we tend

to self-correct we had slavery but then

we had evolution we had the

institutional and the institutional

suppression of women but then we have

women’s suffrage

we had the institutionalized violence

against black people in the American

South and then we had the civil rights

movement it’s simply our turn and so

much of what we are experiencing today

is the struggle that is simply playing

itself out again in our time one of the

difficulties of this one

is that the slave owner was obviously a

slave owner the person who denied women

rights was obviously the person who was

denying women of right right the

segregationist was obviously a

segregationist today those who represent

this kind of corporatism corporate

control without without conscience they

are sometimes you know they’re the ones

wearing the really nice pinstripe suits

and talking about how much they love


so today it’s not one evil institution

it’s more like that we just have to

surgically remove which other

generations have done and brilliantly

today it’s more like a cancer that is

metastasized because it’s an economic

mindset which is made short-term

corporate profit this this this false

God under under the the this masquerade

that this trickle-down economics would

be good for everybody that all oh there

would be the small group of people that

would make so much money but it would be

good because there would be the job

creators so all that money would trickle

down now after 40 years we see what


it hasn’t trickled down and lifted all

boats the way they said it would it has

created millions of people without even

a life vest so that’s where we are today

and it was starting in the 1980s that

this that this it came out of the

University of Chicago there’s this whole

idea that from market principles

completely untethered to any kind of

government regulation to the organize

our society although I want to mention

something that I think is very

interesting Milton Friedman who was the

main articulator of the trickle-down

economic theory he himself said that the

only way it would be safe is if there

was a universal basic income but the

forces the Koch brother type forces that

promulgated it they didn’t want that

part so then that started in the 80s

with the Reagan presidency and so many

of the forces around that but then what

happened within ten years of that that

really put the nails on the coffin of

our better nature at least for a while

is the undue influence of money so you

first you have the Supreme Court saying

that money was free speech and then

of course a few years ago Citizens

United which gives unlimited power of

corporations to influence and that’s

what turned our our government into a

system of legalized bribery and so at

this point I’m reminded of the JFK quote

those who make peaceful revolution

impossible make violent revolution

inevitable we need a political

nonviolent peaceful revolution and

overthrow of the corporatist


which has been diminishing and

corrupting our democracy for years now

Brandeis Louis Brandeis the late Supreme

Court Justice said you can have large

amounts of money concentrated in the

hands of a few or you can have democracy

you cannot have both yeah I mean it’s

it’s amazing I think you you answered my

next question was gonna be you know if

if there is a main threat to our

democracy would you say that it is you

know hands power in the the hands of the

few or you know corporate lobbying and

you know gerrymandering and you know

what you know what can we do to you know

lessen the impact of this this negative

influence on you know normal regular

elections we have got to show up in

November with such a massive wave what

concerns me are too many people who are

already saying no if it’s not Bernie I’m

not gonna vote oh whatever

please please please please please we

must you know people say well I’m not

gonna vote for the lesser of two evils I

suggest you do vote for the lesser of

two evils

because one evil is handleable you know

you know one woman I remember in the

last time when she was going to vote

their party shit Mary and you cannot

make me vote my fear and I remember

saying to her I wish you would because

this is a case where we must in November

we must we must show up and I know

listen I’ve been you you said earlier

I’ve been in the belly of the beast

pretty literally if anybody has a right

to say those motherfuckers I do I get it

I know I know what it’s like to know I

know that game is played I don’t care

right now that doesn’t matter we have a

more serious issue at hand and that is

the the power of the presidency in the

hands of Donald Trump and so when you

say what what do we have to do look do

we have problems that we’re gonna have

to deal with the way the Democratic

Party has been so taken over by

corporatist elements in there yeah we do

do we have a problem with the DNC yeah

we do do we do we have things to discuss

about after this next election of

whether or not you know what about third

parties you know abolition came from the

abolitionist party women’s suffrage came

from the suffrage party Social Security

came to the Socialist Party should there

be discussions all of those discussions

should happen however none of it will be

possible if Trump wins again

and you better believe we’re good we we

have yes do we have a very very serious

problem on our hands yes we do do we

have the specter of voter suppression

yes we do do we even have the specter

that certain forces are going to use the

pandemic as an excuse to make it even

harder for the will of the people to be

registered in this year yes we do show

up for the for the struggle that’s all I

can say show up we have to show up you

know even when you talk about whether it

was the Russians when you talk about

whomever whatever the only places where

elections can be messed with

are in states where it’s closed so you

just got to make sure it’s not even

close you’ve just got to be involved

even if it means that the Democratic

candidate is someone you’re like I

cannot believe it came to this I don’t

care I don’t care

by the way Joe Biden is a very nice man

you’re nice to me on the campaign his

wife is very very lovely

you know what be doing to have to go

into that conversation

I just cannot stress enough how

important it is the answer to your

question and that is that we simply must

make sure that Trump does not get a

second term yeah I mean Mary Ann I I

really feel your struggle I just you

know at the outset of this conversation

we said I think we agreed that it’s so

corrupt it’s it’s like the secret

handshake thing and and then you you

clarified your answer and you said you

know if it’s not close it’s harder to

mess with right but then also I heard I

read uh during the research for the show

I read that you I think I mean if it was

correct that you declared a coup that

you said clarify that thank you because

I did the lead at five minutes later

because it was it was not the best

choice of words what I was referring to

remember when I said earlier in our

conversation tonight I about what I

would I myself experienced that someone

clearly said get that woman off the

stage and that this false narrative was

created about me and you know everywhere

you looked on crazy and anti back so I’m

anti medicine I’m anti science all that

we do even gantt that gay for goodness

sakes okay you know awful stuff so I’ve

seen how it works I did not like what

happened the night before Super Tuesday

in that last debate people who did Judge

was clearly not planning to leave the

race Amy Klobuchar was clearly not

planning to leave that race the fact

that the night before Super Tuesday

all of a sudden Buddha jet is out and

I’m endorsing Biden Koba car is out

endorsing Biden Beto comes out in Texas

I’m endorsing Biden I didn’t like that I

didn’t like because it was like with

bear spray when you’re hiking and you

are you have bear spray let’s say or

Montana or someplace or like Beartooth

Mountains and you have to have bear

spray but yeah the bear has to get

really close before you can before you

can spray what happened by doing that

night before Super Tuesday it didn’t

even give people a chance to process it

it was to me I know some people say no

they just did that it was not I remember

down a Bosch on a CNN had just said it

was just this organic thing that

happened no it was not an organic thing

that happened it was very strategized

and I didn’t like that so I didn’t call

the vote

a coup I called what happened the night

before a coup it was however it wasn’t

the kind of language I should have used

and um and I that’s why I deleted it

five minutes later but you know it’s

interesting I I’m a writer you edit but

in Twitter world born once you’ve

tweeted it so having said not a good

choice of words it was a drama I didn’t

like I didn’t appreciate it I didn’t

think it was cool and it had the

signature of clearly it was this huge

massive stop Bernie thing and I didn’t

like it and I don’t like it but that is

not a reason not to just surrender our

democracy to those people that is not a

reason to surrender our democracy okay

well I mean thank you for clarifying

that I did find that choice of words a

bit curious and I mean it it’s just very

charged you know I was not it was you

know I look back at it I actually had

received a phone call from somebody in

the Bernie campaign would you please

take that down and I looked at it and

realized oh my goodness yeah that was

not cool on my part

no I I regret that so mariann if we can

switch gears a bit you know and talk

about you know health and wellness and

how people can sort of connect in with

themselves because now I think is a time

where you know more than ever you know

when you were so tired that you were

working from your 9:00 to 5:00 and you

came home and you’re exhausted and you

don’t have time to read that book you

don’t have time to spend with your kids

you know you don’t you say you don’t

have time for all this stuff now you

have time to do all those things now you

have time to really connect with

yourself and and look for that part of

yourself that you’ve lost over the years

and you know so so how can we

encourage people to do more of that you

know do we need to meditate do we

exercise more you know how can we

connect into that part of our self our

spirit by that that higher self of ours

that’s out there in there I’ve talked

quite a bit about that and written about

it I hope once again that people will go

– Marianne calm because I have my videos

and check out my my sharings on


the first thing and also I’ve downloaded

my my meditations this is extremely

important if you meditate even five

minutes in the morning that will help to

fortify your immune system it will help

to fortify your nervous system in moving

through this it’s very very important

that we take responsibility for our

emotional and psychological well-being

as we go through this there is no more

powerful tool than meditation prayer

mindfulness that’s number one number two

the important issue is to remember it’s

not just about you there is a temptation

to isolate in our own fear but as I said

earlier where there is love there cannot

be fear make this about checking out

checking up on other people people who

are more at risk and even if not

physically of despair then you might be

and also when you were talking about

your kids while you have time to be with

your kids now use this time this this

period will be over this will not last

forever but mine up for the gold that is

available to us now and I have quite a

you know I have some videos about this

so I hope people will go to Maryanne

calm and I have guided meditations I

have quite a bit of sharing on what it

will take to emotionally and

psychologically be the people we need to

be who as we go through this you know

sometimes you can’t control your

circumstances but you can always control

who you to

to be within the circumstance sure

that’s that’s a conversation we need to

be having now perfect Maryann I mean

this absolutely flew by and I mean I

we’ve we we touched on the things that I

really wanted to talk about but you know

is there anything that you’d like to say

for the people that are gonna hear this

there’s going to be an immense people

amount of people that listen to this

episode so you know if there’s maybe a

message for them that you have you know

now is that time to kind of reach out

and anyone that’s listening to this that

you know anything that you’d like to

take that in well I think I just want to

thank you I think that what you and I

are doing tonight and what the listeners

are participating in is they hear this

podcast is the kind of thing we all need

to be doing we’re trying to have deeper

conversations than usual and in every

moment you create the future in the

present so it’s in the vertical you know

we’re very limited on the horizontal

plane right now but you’re never limited

in the vertical how how deep you grow I

think there are a lot of people thinking

about relationships right now some

forgiveness going on some deeper more

intimate conversations going on this is

the time to realize everything that has

happened on our planet is a reflection

of the people we have been the planet

will change as we change as we allow

ourselves to become more deeply

committed to love then we won’t

by definition become more deeply

committed to being of service and abuse

to each other and we must evolve into a

higher more powerful more practical love

you know when you and I were children we

learned about evolution and we learned

that when a species began to exhibit

behavior that was maladaptive for its

survival that one of two things would

happen it would either mutate or it

would go extinct

well that’s what’s happening on the

planet today our collective behavior is

maladaptive for the survival of the

species we too much too recklessly too

irresponsibly and we are actively

involved in the destruction of our own


we will involve now we will evolve or we

will continue to march closer and closer

to the precipice so you know we all know

the word opportunity and China means I

mean of crisis means both danger and


so I think as we’re all in our own minds

right now and in our own way go deep

into our hearts and dedicate ourselves

to be of use and to be of service at

this time of opportunity

the more things could happen including

even miraculous things than most of us

could even imagine Marianne thank you so

much for your time I sincerely

appreciate if you just want to say your

website one more time for the people

listening Marianne calm Marianne calm ma

RI ne and I know that you were supposed

to be touring at this time but you’re

sheltering in place now you know

absolutely I’m sheltering in place I

have a very generous friend who I happen

to be visiting when this happened and he

said wanted to hook her down here so I’m

grateful for the opportunity and the

friendship it’s someone I’ve known for

30 years he’s an old friend what are the

godfathers to my daughter and I I’m a

fortunate woman and very grateful that

is a great point to end it on guys you

heard it here I mean what an amazing

program with Marianne and you know she


like you heard she’s been in you know

the the center of all of this and she

it’s I think it’s really amazing to hear

her perspective and to get an idea of

you know what we’re dealing with so I

really appreciate her time and for you

guys who are listening to this and

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