Tom Shroder – Transcript


***UNEDITED DRAFT NOT EDITED****

 

Whatever he has done in just the children of us thought has existed yet we just had home Schroeder on the tone for the film is apologized to listeners for how sick people were voice why is played everything we caught a couple of the homes of the podcast that has to be one of 30% of surviving almost a week is almost died him in the recording of thoughts as to your will or will you home was gracious enough to let this time he deftly seems like a pretty busy guide is working on different stuff so we were happy to have long do her hideous looking to touch mostly on his newest book is a research going on the map had a whole body of work things concerning life is gone. Do you have pulled the PAF overall it was a very close sure that elected usually go but I hope you guys enjoy this be deflated home Schroeder is his certainly lean horses and is is is a great if so check it out and Dr. G Oakley die and that we will see guys next time Schroeder has been an award-winning journalist writer and editor for 130 years his book editing projects include two New York Times bestsellers conceived and edited the story fatal distraction which was awarded the

2000 talent puerile Pulitzer Prize for feature writing he also edited and contribute it to pearls before breakfast which was awarded the 2008 Pulitzer Prize for feature writing his latest book is acid test LST XC and the power to heal fascinating transformative look at the therapeutic powers of psychedelic drugs particularly in the treatment of PTSD and the past 50 years of scientific political and legal controversy have ignited ultimately makes parents Tom is a pleasure to have you here well to your book and give the style of writing it uses is pretty interesting I really liked reading it in our you download the via this the development of psychedelics have said therapeutic tool to live of three people and only all the way back to the beginning and bring it all the way to where we are now and I wanted to read

I will do some kind of text cool yeah you deftly house of the word to use later if I can on your your website I found this really music it says I know how you feel I’m sure there are writers who don’t find writing tibia bone crushing nausea inducing festival of self-loathing I just don’t have and to be one of the well they were there were moments when I was writing this book where my wife had a lot of discredited off the wall of the standard operating procedure eldest to the stage and if you could go through the first chapter in your book just kind of explain for the people who don’t know what else to use the discovery that that Albert Hoffman made and the bicycle day about interesting your perspective why I made our is a fast moving character or something to his bat has never been pointed out as far as I know when he was who was walking through the woods in Switzerland near his home in the hapless moments of spontaneous transcendence where the in 6 g of greater reality of the sense of unity with everything in the universe and this was so meaningful to him and yet so hard to express that he really felt that he wished that he could be on where the

pain is something to convey what was and then he realized very painfully that he was an apartment in what manner and he wasn’t an artist of any kind sometimes you hundred 80° and became a scientist and is it to the table to express this is an artist and musician was a scientist actually found a substance that actually deliver those experiments to just describe the labor and that’s why I doesn’t have the 20th century’s great ironies and though what was that he was he was looking for a substance that has some kind of medical use and he was hoping based on previous compounds that were similar that maybe this would help stimulate respiration or circulation right and so he was going to be used in the basic ingredient that email was medically with was lysergic acid and different elements to it in his 2010 yeah mine which was a it was a Pokémon and you know nothing really is the people in the last as well as some activity but it’s not going to stop your So basically nausea and for some reason this one compound stuck in his head and he called it an odd percent of that there was something more to this to the point where I years later in 1943 to his decided to re-synthesize the continents in land” LST 25 and so did and as he was doing it again feel and he even took him to go online economy have a slight revisions released a start so the next day and he said that was really strange but negativity

LSD because you have been exposed to such a tiny amount of it was like hundreds of times less than any psychoactive chemicals in the rights that they could be so he’d like automation was the now I’ve been using in the lab and he likes intentionally sniffed that nothing similar so that came to the conclusion that at the LST and he intentionally took what he thought was very tiny amount of and that’s where you set the this thing would have to leave because he felt that he was maybe going insane and only his assistant news doing this and this was World War II they didn’t have access to a car so motorhome and Protestants and he said he felt like he was he felt like that he was like in time and that that wasn’t getting anywhere but that the is later said that no limit time they got to this place and he was going on he developed it wasn’t himself he thought maybe he was going to die or go crazy and and call the doctor and all signs were normal and there’s nothing physically physiologically maybe slightly accelerated already but this amazing experience and then I thought it was and he went in and he realized that he had come upon a really remarkable and so began sending this out to where researchers around the world and at first I thought it in the initial sort of letter they sent out with the same maybe this creates a 88 short duration psychosis and then maybe it would be useful or psychiatrist experiences so they know whether psychotic patients were going and was people started self experimenting with it and they had experienced is that were more like Albert Hoffman’s experience of childhood that were revelatory and that they didn’t all crazy in fact they felt like they were turned into something of a higher consciousness and higher intelligence and have remarkable experiences that are meaningful to them and it remains meaningful after the effects of the drug war and so a researcher was actually a student at the time he first took LSD became researcher in Pakistan began to see its potential for use in therapy before it was the thousands of sessions with with patients their sessions and when he began to believe was that the that the LSD basically gave the patient access to what was happening in the subconscious and the issues that were most important at that time and so that it actually brought up things that was needed to resolve whatever kind of psychological or emotional problems that were wild it every session they came up with exactly the right material that they needed to work on they also had because their perspective insights into

these issues the woman he and this was replicated in thousands of patients around the world and from the 1950s and 1960s this is a revolution in psychiatry and and is being used with great success for a wide range of things from autism alcoholism and drug addiction to depression and anxiety through traumatic stress disorder and was being used in a in a remarkable things with terrific success on the clinical conditions will remarkable amount of safety considered considering the potency of the point where it suddenly got out into the into the public and wild into the wild things being used on the street and and it people associated with the political movement the antiwar movement the and authority in general and it really threatened the people who make the laws to the point where they just stopped on they made it is illegal as heroin and they stop all research and of course always laws did very little if anything to stop the illegal and uncontrolled use of it but it was extremely effective in wiping out all research and as long researcher said it was almost as if psychedelic drugs were undiscovered by no as the years went by the general public almost completely forgot that this drug started out as being a tool for site a success psychiatry don’t know and in this story in acid test really I tell his small group of people who couldn’t live with the idea that we were riding on this incredibly promising kind of the a parameter and against jobs and incredible bias they basically labored for years to get to the point where we are now aware it’s once again being tested under FDA approved in FDA approved clinical trials no surprise to the people who have followed this all on his having really remarkable success in dealing with. Difficult issues that are not successfully treated by many other fascinating is that how am the antidepressant medication was first expounded from

LSD research with the early serotonin receptor receptors neurotransmitter is the whole science of the brain really started with LSD because I around the same time just after all LSD which you should should transfer information on perception and awareness they discovered that this compound serotonin which had been known to constrict the employer to constrict blood vessels but they were surprised to find that there was Billy Wagner mounted in the way they had no idea what it did there and then they suddenly noticed that the chemical structure of serotonin was extremely similar to LSD and I went off in their head on my gosh you know this is something that has an effect on the banking visit serotonin is is a compound that is involved in the way we think and feel and so that was really the beginning of grandson’s and that was also inaugurated this you are really began to use oversight of psychotropic medicines in psychiatry and the mercy of these antidepressants and anxiety drugs they all effects the neurotransmitter systems in the brain just as psychedelics to everything about the way that uses that those drugs on an unconscious level if you take an antidepressant you are not aware of any immediately feel things but it’s not like you’re thinking about your problems conscious right psychedelics the ceiling cons because you everything being brought into your awareness and what healed in is not like feel like penicillin if you have an infection you take penicillin and completely literal level of awareness penicillin kills infection and then your wound heals but you have in your doing psychedelic therapy what happens is this also bought into your awareness and you are actually aware of the insights that are queued up for unraveling these psychic tangles the cost of problem in the first place so you really where the ceiling and in fact awareness is what’s

doing heal not drop drugs enabling this heightened awareness this heightened access to what’s going on in your normally subconscious part of your benefit what you think that heightened axis is to think that some actors to sink of hyper dimensional realm war some other kind of him universal consciousness that’s been Continued that I the simplest explanation is the one that I was actually came up with way back in 19 when he took masculine and he thought that he saw not a alternate reality or not made a kind of the yellow hallucinatory reality dollars in the same reality in its entirety for the first time ever and when he decided was that the normal function of normal consciousness is much of reality to kind of its because the other guy. Being that reality is too big to also to sort of go about our daily business survival without this distraction of this unbelievable goals would only mind blowing reality that’s out there that is the true reality and basically learns to use are trying to kind it was like a camp for your wedding and less like so you can focus on some will keep up the brand it was that kind of everything down and try to screen out stuff and keep things in sort of manageable categories syndicate our daily business of doing the hunting in the in the gathering etc. and that what psychedelics as was shut down that that filter and allow the unit is magnificent whelming also missed out in which you are doing it in a situation where you are safe and protected and you were under secure circumstances that incredibly valuable because you know it was a lot to learn from reality that we normally screen out so I think that actually use

MRI research is going on this kind of showing the same thing when showing his is that you originally thought it made sense that because of the subject because the psychedelic experience substantially. So sort and colorful it bigger than life they thought it must that the psychedelic drugs must increase my connected but when it did happen on what they found was not only reduces] so how can we then they realize was that the parts of the brain it reduced work that the parts of the brain that that screen that sort of work things that that sort of the created construct of and diminished which meant that the parts of the brain that we see the raw input from from the outside world better and and so again and again tomorrow I stuff went right in with the idea that it psychedelics what it does is it shuts down the reducing bowel on

and allows in a much sort of Lauren and Richard reality it’s fascinating so you think do think that you think that through this server coming Rick Doblin and guests founded in the woods you: right he found the mountains to and all of the work that they were they were doing their immediate really took a long time and is just one of these the great American originals totally self invented you know use in what he was basically a college dropout who actually one point went to his father like through his freshman year in college and said you have a basis LSD experiences that I find very difficult but I still like the report and so I want to do is I want to drop out of college and go to California and study LSD support

did you know what I said in my same in the intestines is like maybe one father in 100,000 would say would not say you want to do and what to labor At one father and 100,000 and he and the and so he went out and actually studied withstand drought is when he realized was what was he sounds difficult experience with LSD where he felt like he was seeing the laws of his personality but they Shutting down for you to do anything about right you remember that yet yet he kind of hit a wall is all fear, and he couldn’t get past it and then he read the moment going crazy is the synopsis and then he read Stan Brock that describe the process that got observed that people help therapy with someone there helping some that you could get past that actually that difficult was reading was actually an opportunity and what it did was was growing up is his biggest problems and allowing him that conscious access to and possibly unwell but he wasn’t able to do that by himself and so suddenly reading prosperity but I’m not crazy this actually is valuable and it could be valuable, 102 psychedelic therapy and input want to do it all myself and in get better get around the block so he went out to California and he and just this is just exactly the time that they were making LSD is illegal in all psychedelics by you in picture and make all psychedelics legal also was sinking him just as discovering this it in the shutting it down so McGraw was doing was in a prompt of the attitude was it’s not drop is doing the it’s the altered state of consciousness’s that’s allowing the ceiling and said throughout the centuries humans have found nondrug ways to alter consciousness and so that’s what I need to do is identify a way it’s legal to achieve the same state of altered consciousness and he came up with this combination of books with hyperventilation and loud pounding music that got people into very successfully is in a lot of cases is called breath work and and so he was using that and so Rick went out to learn that he know he won the principles of help people who situations where there altered states and having difficult tour, and but at the same time he was going out to the beach without cross knowledge and doing LSD etc. and so then

what happened was in one of these retreats somebody said you want to try this its MDMA and and at first he didn’t think much of it but then he took it and he realized that it was ace estate again where you know he was sort of put out of himself into an altered state but there wasn’t that the ability there wasn’t that fear it is almost actually took that fear what so he thought this is the even more important therapy and LSD potentially or at least its conservative any important and slow somewhat different purpose especially in cases like PTSD were a blockage to this that the traumatic memory that’s causing all the problems is repressed it is repressed because the brain regards as to threaten to frightening to go near there you but because MDMA letters that fear that allows people to approach that member which they have to do to get over it and without the disorder panic reaction that causes all their symptoms and the other advantage was this was in in the early 80s and the end was kind of drugs of the regulatory people so it wasn’t yellow legal you know what was going to be but you know he felt like Number of universal course he got in touch with the way a high of the UN written a book about how there was some kind of there needs to be some kind of spirituality in order to get around all this work would keep And work well you know I agree with your block but you didn’t mention psychedelic drugs and I think that’s an important and so unbelievably beguile] says you know you make a good point and I think there are others who would like to cure for any listed some spiritual leaders of different base and much and so Rick Hendrix is saying he wants me to send them MDMA and he did so he sent the meadow like you notice is world renowned the religious figures and some of them actually did it and and they said this is really valuable and so they were making statements like that right about the time that the government was in a make this legal and instruments are just by the sheer force of his intent Insinuated himself in this it is sort of culture of people who have been important in the psychedelic movement of the 60s and kind connected it as long in California and Rick Scott insinuated himself back and he kind of this you can’t just let them make this legal because it says in the law that if the drug the India recognized medical value it cannot be placed on schedule 1 and since then the question using the successfully for years everybody knows that this essay and accepted medical purpose and so we got like this and leading this charge to win the DA said that the open MDMA on schedule 1 and she and he sort of got all these some of the psychiatrist and therapist to write these letters the DA protesting some of your long here in which the DA brawler evidence against against MDMA and Rick and his colleagues got the evidence or in every point the judge ruled for written is called St. MDMA definitely has accepted medical use it’s not highly addictive and its and it’s not dangerous one given under medical supervision and just why it was a slamdunk unfortunately was administrative hearing not a court and so DA said sorry we reject the judge and the fact DA called to bias which they later apologized but anyway a the they can they just said a soccer

ball so were taken and going. So so MDMA became illegal that point some of the people arrested in working with Sarah well we have to just drop it or go underground reality is to do that and he and he found the multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies and he made it his mission and people I was crazy some people still think it’s crazy but but he actually made his work and it took him 15 years to really get the first FDA approved clinical study of MDMA at the ground and asked where the third person in my book Michelman overcomes and he was a psychiatrist who had really become interested in the power of altered states in psychological to the point where he went down when spent the week or 10 days doing while Oscar what a shame and came back and he wanted he felt he was can have to go out of the country somewhere to do this research in the library couldn’t find a psychiatrist who would do it in and put his name to this research because they caution when people destroy lucrative but even suggesting the psychedelics might not be this unit was so when Michelman overcame up to Rick at a conference and said I’d like to do this research on using psychedelics for therapy what country do you think I can do it in the same you a psychiatrist and he said yes you can do it here in your abdominal help so that’s what became the team another person in acid test that I follow is a Marine who Nicholas and he you know he joined the Marines in time to go to rack you have horrific combat experiences where people at the watch his friends get sort of got shot and lead out in front of them as well as you don’t shoot kids like 1214-year-old to suit somebody had given an AK-47 and told shoot the Americans and had white sticker on his 50 caliber machine gun long awaited his children while which he felt horribly guilty for course and he felt guilty for not being it will save his friends so it was a real mess and he was injured himself anything back with really terrible PTSD and to the point where he really thought he wasn’t crucified that can stand it is so and when he read about these studies that they were doing treated with the MDMA and he basically the the climax of the book is when he gets the therapy himself right have extensive time with the predominant as as result of the researcher minister was Alec was the prime history of Rick Collins is a synchronistic that I was a escape goes all the way back to 1975 when I was a student journalist at the University of Florida was the editor of the college newspaper there and I crop in Sarasota’s arms home for spring break and there was like a whistleblower in the local paper about this heavy album was building this magnificent house and it was like a huge cedar beams stained-glass windows in Little Rock warriors really spectacular and so I recognized what is philosophy now I have some experience with psychedelics in college you know what it was in Gainesville Florida and that is Pastors out there and Pastors who the psilocybin so we go out the pastors sneak under the fences and grandpa mushrooms right out of the And you know we either boiled them in a non-tourist frivolously I was seeking in on you first experience I knew that this was something important something they started experiences that I know when the drugs law they were every bit as valuable as they were when that what was happening and just as an example there was one time were right I did the mushrooms and I started obsessing about anxieties and concerns I have and then build links is is worried about something that was happening that day I start worrying abou

t the future is in the slightest display and I could feel like it was a real person on my chest and I had this vision suddenly noticed out worse and worse when one could barely breathe and I suddenly have this breakthrough vision where I saw that it was a builder the reason was on my chest as I was holding it to myself with my own arms that is actually choosing that all I have to do is let my arms go bowling with drop in my day off anxieties of murders and so the rest of my life since then really I’ve known about the possibility of understood that to a certain extent all negative feelings and emotions that you have choice your choosing the field’s extent and you can somehow develop muscle and let go incredibly valuable thing that I never would’ve gotten to be if I hadn’t had this vision because you know the psilocybin experiences it’s not just an intellectual Bob… Thinking of maybe I’m choosing to some actually feeling and seeing it in in a very concrete way so that I actually could let the Boulder going to feel all so I knew that it was valuable and I needed it from the days Rick was saying that what is really saying was just trying to take the things you learn in the in the art in the psychedelic experience and put them into literally in the concrete by building this house so I went down there and I did a story on improve the Sunday supplement of the college newspaper announced in 1975 about my business and why gynecology knockout career and family were Pastors around us is still legal so I stop doing the psychedelics and doing what I still remember about and then I was 10 years later I was the editor of the Miami Herald Sunday magazine and I saw her in the Tampa paper that there is while wild man hit was proclaiming that this new drugs to psychedelic MDMA was the magic silver and psychiatry and psychotherapy is reading and I thought about that. That’s the same back so I signed a reporter to we went to go and do a cover story’s and I think we call the headline was a Timothy Leary for the 80s so and 15 years go by and the and I am now it are 18 years and doesn’t now editor of the Washington Post and I see will or the New York Times about how far is doing the first clinical study of psychedelics since th

ey were to malaria, rail and as I’m waiting for turns out that it’s being sponsored by this organization called maps and that the boundary director of the organization is a guy named McDonald is with this is the same size and this time the story on it and call alongside and he not only remember who otherwise you set the story college paper in the story you wrote the Miami Herald Sunday magazine on my desk right now is just this morning I was showing my Board of Directors and what he was trying to do was make a point that he, long way in his image from this wild man to malaria character somebody who is able to successfully deal with you the most important conservative institutions country like the horror claim psychiatric hospital right is granted except that it wasn’t entirely true because the client hospital change leadership and the new president said I don’t want anything to do with rooftop because crazy and so they said when I can accept money from basically it’s a long story but basically that study never really got off the ground of the same time he done his work with my permit (in and was just started studying South Carolina where they were using MDMA to treat mostly women victims of rape and sexual abuse so I went down there and I was so impressive was the one you want to write a book about this but I also knew that you know publishers might you might look at this little and and so I needed it at the time the or restarted and already we were beginning to see an unbelievably high person is mana

ged 20% of people who served in Iraq, PTSD is close to being amends for all and so and I knew that Michael and Rick were planning to do the next that it was good be veterans combat related PTSD and I said that’s the thing that will get people take this seriously because everybody is aware I think guilty that were sending these people these young people who serve us in the coming home this badly injured 100 and the way for that to happen a man I also had to wait a certain amount of time after the therapy before it even talk to these people and I find somebody to reveal all her most intimate enough parking scary secrets that they were like talking about under the influence of psychedelic drugs and to do with her name and everything unfortunately that’s that’s when I found that blacks the was so moved by how does it help them in so guilty that he was leaving his comrades behind when they could have access to this that he decided he was willing to put himself out there and thought maybe it would help answer their very very interesting summer night definitely feel like you you spent some time covering ayahuasca and Tian Tian and psychedelic like across the spectrum of

psychedelics there is this sort of breakthrough that happens and were able to somehow connect with how would you terminology term not that moment I know that it said that it allows you to see reality for what it is but a mean all these drugs that are legal are now helping all these people who are they coming where those very still legal in helping people for thousands of years is the trip I mean this is been used to initiate and spiritual development in almost every other culture around the world you have anything Western culture in hell in the ancient Indonesian times they had these ecstatic visions and then people think that yes they were some kind of psychedelic drugs that they were using so it’s it’s new to us as in our materialistic science-based Western culture but it’s not the world and I think that always drugs you know In common is that it’s it’s about the experience it’s not about drunk really it’s about the experience that the drug spring about Dr. G units into that and I definitely hard personal experiences that realm it seems to be the case when you anticipate any man should be restricted drug well then that’s the thing was really important to focus on I think that given the fact that there always faced two trials and they’re all having you know you can you supposed to protect success of ongoing studies but remember this they had almost 20 years of successful use of these drugs in the 50s and 60s so it’s not really are not released this summer will suspend me knows one of the researchers said we know this works you have not trying to discover whether it works because works were just trying to put it in a way that the mainstream will accept and invest it happened but the problem is that the phase 3 trials which are required before it becomes a prescription drug involves hundreds of subjects that has to be done in like a dozen different locations cost tens of millions of dollars and meanwhile masses is little white nonprofit and the raising money in like bias in tens and 20s on antigovernment campaign since the so is this really stressed this out and Rick is like you are forecasting in in like under 10 years but I hope every forecast is made is incredibly overly optimistic and at the rate of going I would be surprised if

we take 15 years before this is prescription drug best walkaway way to an end of really tragic thing is that there are about as many as 1 million that’s coming home have lifelong PTSD without appropriate treatment without treatment that can really help them get to the root of it and this is cost us in disability and medical treatment of why haven’t we always best that the estimate is the cost is like showing dollars in the next 30 years Islamic candidate Has more supersized and debts for permanent and ended now +22 best but they are successfully committing suicide twice that many are attempting and a significant portion of that is related to unresolved PTSD so you would think that the Pentagon which has no a a multibillion-dollar budget notebook. The unit of our site is Enough change in the couch cushions the fund’s research and moving along quickly but so far I have not contributed single diamond why is that it’s because of this lingering stigma that LSD is somehow like a demon driver that psychedelics are you are or know about you notice it’s about some kind don’t you think that they’re making money through these for pharmaceutical companies now have no that there always can make money and psychedelics because you can’t because unlike other drugs that are given in psychiatry you have to keep giving it over some reason you do there you were a handful of times and the problems are resolved only need to come back once Everest region really that’s minutes white still legal is considered the last item that’s why they’re not getting investors because there’s no money to be made in this really you so you know cannot really getting investors do it so that really means that you know that an plus the FDA could declare this an urgent need and track all his incredibly time-consuming trials and to give but they’re not doing that and in the government is not contributing

at times this is what I was going on NPR said Diane show and I was trying to find somebody from the Pentagon to go on discusses and I had a contact in there and in the military and he communicated was appropriate and he showed me the email got back is no this is much too dangerous for folks in uniform to talk about this and just drove me crazy because it’s dangerous to talk about it you don’t leaving the million best with severe PTSD untreated is not dangerous was dangerous to discussing the possibility that this might be an effective therapy help it really is is insane it’s a mistake sickening doesn’t seem to be some kind of almost global consciousness shift were enough people are actually because of podcast because back’s information because the Internet are referred to recognize that your these are valid forms of not even just psychotherapy is deserved these are almost in it.you can I want skin of user inalienable rights but be able to control your consciousness is it is a distinct human right and what’s it going to take me and we go to be shifts at the 60s had another seem to be the other a present right out if this can be the next wave when people kind of tell the government to go screw themselves and how long is it going on until ballot is certainly there are a lot of people who do it legally but why do it illegally I want to do it legally but that no baby that’s another question because this is the to the eyes this is not just something that is important for people with no known psychiatric conditions and Johns Hopkins the

study were a game suicide to normal completely healthy individuals never done psychedelics before and 70% of at the end said described it as one of the five most significant experiences of their lives is just normal people about any of the presenting problems so that suggests that it has value is one of the Bible significant experience in their lives and in the third person that it was the single most significant experience in the… Taking the high dose of suicide and in a note basically in in a lineup office last so obviously this has some value for it in terms of personality development in an and life satisfaction that it could be a real help to almost anybody but that’s a whole different thing because you know that the course that is bi within the medical establishment grouping that is an effective therapy for a given condition that’s the chapter on the there it shouldn’t take 15 years but it might because you know is kicking in with the big government monitored Chris Locke is urgent need to use of it you know there are people concerned about saying what induces Steinbach Jesse found; Council on spiritual practices and he said well I know what will it take so that these drugs can be judiciously used for people without religious experiences that primary religious experiences and you know there’s not really an answer that question yet I didn’t even see what’s happening with marijuana were first became approved for medical uses in our states are legalized I think that psychedelics even have a bigger stigma than marijuana is just experiences is so powerful I think that people want up I mean it’s almost like helping the first time Hoffman took it when he didn’t know what is him do it was afraid it was driving this can make them go crazy and I think people don’t understand it seemed to have the size of the experience in Bank of it’s about making people go and say reefer madness so yeah that’s a different question about be sort of integrated into our site and are approved religions who legally can use dialogue in the case of the Native American Church peyote mescaline as part of the religious observance right so maybe don’t be churches that pop-up chat that right to join the church was trying to do the habit they had a

typist like in Institute this idea that you psychedelics etc. you think there’s almost like an agenda behind it that they don’t want people having access arrhythmias that the government doesn’t want people having access to these higher realms consciousness because of some form understanding of racks of enemies realms now I think they just don’t understand them and they just want the man with you know all all sorts of other things of cause problems in society like your alcohol infant event pink and how they think that person with other like a lot of people think and even on some comments you know when excerpts of the book upon in various places and some people say you know how crazy is a bank that have these people about these problems can solve them by escaping reality that’s what they think is that this is that these drugs create an imaginary world you know image of the world and that it’s an escape from reality and want the original researchers who was using it to treat alcoholism was saying no say it’s an emergency of burgeoning of reality and enhancement and pick up it) Of the research says that elves to use non-toxic nonaddictive rain while yet yes I mean it’s it’s that while some in the again like 1960 of the psychiatrist did a survey of all research and the number of thousands of those is that it been administered and said that for such a powerful psychoactive drug it was it was remarkably say you know it does have some dangers. There’s there is a syndrome that sometimes happens rarely

happens where you you have this all through visual perception that lingers after the drug process certainly uncontrolled use can be dangerous because people have these anxiety reactions to it if they don’t have somebody in this note to prepare for the experience that’s why seven setting is always been seemed so important someone who goes into it with understanding what experiences can be like their intent is to know this sort of useless for personal exploration have somebody there was protecting them from the outside world is there doing this and also reassured that is given to one of these anxiety reactions needed hospitalization as a result of this when those conditions haven’t been met so far this is not something to be the lightly or casually or in any kind of situations that aren’t out of control had a of our rotation traditions had a year for each PPD that was in persistent test order I think it was a limited weighing in at information patient but he repeated over 100 times we were interviewing him and he just Having these like hallucinations of our memory we were asking for what you see fictitious demon all over like we mean it’s like these are all over you… It is not the visual distortions that sounds like psychosis may have the other things that people who are properly screened people who have a history of mental illness could have their mental illness sort of exasperated by the psychedelic experience so that the best and other dangerous prequel people who have this pre-existing issues with mental health and psychosis etc. that’s certainly not advisable for them to be doing psychedelic drug and it sounds like this guy certainly had a psychoactive psychosis on the plate along well I’ve been using good guys just the bat from his demons and angels appeared to have lost all public psychotic that’s sure I just I just think the people to get involved in the same purposes this is incredibly important promising research and know not only don’t want to get in the way of it but you know are the institutions that are responsible for all his men and women who coming back from the wars they providing on our behalf severely wounded and with this persistent PTSD and they need to get together and get this research completed as quickly as possible to get his room promising treatments out there and available to our needs and their millions of people out there not just best but millions of people with all kinds of of psychiatric difficulties that could be helped by this right question you advice for any aspiring writers out there you I was recently website it resonates

is reading Stephen King’s on writing one is what something that you’d you’d recommend some people that are interested right well I have that the think that I discovered was I will I wanted to be a writer was interested in writing fiction when I was in college and so I thought about it a lot and then I suddenly realized you know there’s one thing missing here I’m not actually writing everything was either dead or erotic story if I had a class I wait until the deadline and then I’d suddenly get it done but when I didn’t have a class I did write a story so I decided to put myself in a situation like the deadline so that I join the golf paper so the first the ideas you are right you want to be a writer you have to write into far and and then you know I think that you really have to think about what is it that I have the same as original and that’s meaningful and so I know it’s not really about writing it’s about what it is that you’re communicating so instead of just this idea that just pushing out always works it’s really what you’re trying to do to try it understand something well enough so that you have something valuable to say about that becomes an issue of trying to say that is economically in his powerful as possible but the first thing is that something really important to set so I think that you know I think anybody wants to be a writer needs think about what it is that I have been interesting to other people important for them to learn about that I know you said that’s a good point to dominate your pressed for time working people find your work with you to now why I am I feel right now I’m still doing a lot of the things like this document as a test which you know I’m certainly willing to do whatever it takes to promote that because I think it’s important you know that people get this perspective where they understand is people are doing this research and where was

drugs are coming from them to understand the whole history of the thinking behind it the personalities behind it is crazy these are very smart dedicated accomplished people who have led exemplary lives so I want you know I definitely want people to understand that and also to understand that the this is in some weird process by which the drug works that you can actually turn transparent in that you can see the people sort of having these insights. Consciously that solve their problems so yes that’s important to me I’m working on another book and as you as is pointed out my website I’m in that best self-loathing right now you are you doing all day today I’m the important for its it’s about you know I’m I’m 60 now I think a lot of people reach an age where animated and ignoring their family roots most of their lives but that sentence and recently start wondering about them and often it’s when everybody who could possibly do about them and that my case my grandfather was a writer and so that gives me a particular connection with them and credited him with making me want to become a writer but now that I think about it it seems like maybe there is something to that but unlike most people who suddenly get curious about that relatives with nobody to ask about them will be on Facebook I can really this information is lost forever but I’s unique situation where because my grandfather’s letters and papers in all his manuscripts and articles about them from the 20’s onward are stored in these series of like

180 boxes at the Library of Congress which I’m looking at so this is about me going through in looking through all that stuff you what it is I want about him and myself and also it’s a movie about the science of why we care about our ancestors so that’s that’s understanding the next couple years of my life mess around with cool sounds interesting look forward to that user is replace people can find what you were doing right now is it to my prototype.keep my there’s an acid test Facebook page that sort keeps people updated on what’s going on with acid test like this podcast and whatever and also I have a website.com website to find ourselves riding and I wrote one of the nation’s community is a man of what is available a and he will and you will see the homeless and the public in

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