Paul Lynn Transcript


Hey guys the episode of the human experience here this was pretty good all has been teaching for a long time with 32 years so a lot of my questions about possible answers after this interview and there’s centering calm feeling that Paul kind of carries with it when you’re talking to is simply does enjoy this one I know the years rotting up here and is only should have one more episode were 2014 feels weird to say that it’s almost 2015 so how were you podcast is doing really well we are completely booked to March of next year anyway… Shut up and let this absolutely does enjoy it explicitly rehear with Paul Lynn of the past society and polished like to take a moment to locate or commute to the human experience Paul is very much good to have your manic think that meditation is is definitely an important part to our everyday experience and know what the apostle sounds like another words people into another Sanskrit kind of word that is probably know the meaning two was so does meet actually it’s a it’s a poly word Paul is similar to Sanskrit it was the language of the common people where Sanskrit was more for the higher class or higher echelon people in the work of Boston and it’s got different translations but I think the most effective translation in my view is it means insight means to see clearly now that’s really intrigued tells more so what is what is on was possible to involve well cost not mean it’s it’s a one since it’s a meditation technique or set of techniques in another sense

it’s it’s a way of really understanding of receiving life and you know the point of the meditation is to open our understanding to really open your mind open our hearts reality and this has to occur in a way that’s now I potential it has to be direct and in order to come to that in most cases a practice or a method might say is helpful for many women some people just get lucky and I can’t wake up and see clearly you know through sometimes there’s a trauma and people will see clearly know beyond conditioned mind that circumstance and bipolar have this experience and when the dying from other people are going to nature and no experience a deep connection that opens them know beyond their typical ordinary perception but for you know you might say are handy daily use meditation comes in extremely well and it’s very very simple practice like to just make a differentiation between what sometimes called mindfulness process also translated as mindfulness mindfulness meditation and concentration concentration something that happens all of us to grant degrees as we live our lives and concentrations that point part of a Posner but the point of concentration if we were able to concentrate our mind would be to direct the concentration into clearly seeing things as they really ours to what is often spoken in the teachings to see things as they really are not as we think they are not as we believe they are not as we been told they are but as they really are so so it seems like Western culture is a

bit behind in regards to meditation versus Eastern culture why do you think that these this systems are kind of starting to pervade our culture here in Western society one thing is because it’s it it it it so effective that mean you know it’s it’s such a buzz word nowadays meditation and mindfulness the National Institutes of Health is spending more money right now as we sit here studying meditation than anything else in history about institution it’s an amazing process it’s primarily based at the University of Wisconsin in Madison and what Despina do eventually I think this can take meditation is just blown wide open and in and pull off sort of the religious connotations even the spiritual connotations as can bring it right to this level of deep and profound practicality and I think that’s one of the things that’s really really intriguing about it is that enters education and medicine as it enters the arts this and I just hear more and more and more all the time about always different ways of people applying meditation applying mindfulness and because it works it really it helps people in so many different ways so do you do think that attend a course is something that you would recommend to everyone or is it suited for some people not others let me just give a little background that particular course that attend a course that is that that’s a style of a Posner if you and I went into Burma right now we would find somewhere between 30 and 40 or more very potent you know powerful lineages of the pasta meditation and and all of these would be styled slightly differently that particular ten-day course that is taught worldwide in the tradition of the SN Goenka who recently passed away is a beautiful course is a very effective course and yeah I would recommend it to just about everybody on it is intensive and it’s nice to know what you’re getting into and be committed and ask you if you come on that count of course they say look ELR basically you notice what were doing in you know it’s like to get into it of course but you know you know what the ability for serious committed people to come and do that remember when I did my first course back in the 80s but I didn’t really know what I was getting into and there were these very good-looking actors that showed up from New York City and they were watching us almost like we were like specimens that conflict will looking at us and we were having dinner and watching us and they were they were very slim attractive people dressed very well and they will watching us with big eyes and eventually they just disa

ppeared and I think the Pope is that you know what this is in front of you don’t assist my imagination but it out for me like many people that that practices very very intensive and it works very very well when the downsides that is it it it does have a lot of concentration and and and and so there’s a recommendation to keep up that practice if you’re going to utilize that is for me there was kind of a split between that style of a Posner concentration practice and the rest of my life I have these wonderful experiences in the meditation I get very concentrated and focused and I come out and be know pretty much as neurotic as ever when I engaged in the rest of my life and they took some years to really kind of in a way so to bring these these different aspects of my experience together such that the mindfulness and some of the effects of the mindfulness were actually not directly translating into my life and in a more complete and whole way that a inner during the research for this interview was kind of watching the going cup videos and on YouTube and he mentions these subtle realities that in first you kind of start focusing on your your breath and you’re watching your breathing and then he mentions he sort of subtle realities that start the service what are some of those subtle realities is talking about the outcome that the really not that subtle and he might be talking about something that that I don’t know about but things like calmness and tranquility and contentment and equanimity you know these kin

ds of qualities are they are in all of us and what happens when you sit down and and meditate and begin to actually release yourself from you know a lot of excessive thinking most of us probably think a lot more than we need to in our minds get very habituated into conceptualizing and viewing life to our concepts and ideas and as you settle down beneath that he sort of go no underneath or behind your cerebral cortex just can’t relax and settle down start to experience the subtle things in their and their and their imported direct in their pretty easy to to get in touch with as long as your life is so chaotic and and stress that when you sit down that’s all you really experience while until that that dissipates beyond that you know it’s certainly in the way the Goenka talks about the possibilities for for human realization on these really even talking about the sort of realms of existence that is hard to come to talk about like is this this is in the body ours is something that happens when you are done and you leave the body knows for sure I don’t mix is conjecture but not for me this does no point in ruling these things out nor if I had at the same I have an experience that t

hat is not a lot of value I think in clinging to it as you know this is the truth and seen a dentist not really the truth but things like loving kindness and compassion sympathetic joy these qualities you know like for example lovingkindness would be really feeling love for all things and all beings when your heart is really opens up compassion would be the most intelligent and true and fundamental response to suffering and difficulty synthetic joy would be like somebody wins the lotto instead of by Geico God 99 nothing good happens to be like actually feel like really good for that other person’s good fortune like I really just by cop on that in a wave of goodness they are in happiness and experience that and equanimity which is really emphasized a lot in that particular style of a Posner is this balance this capacity to be with what’s happening in a nonreactive and open responsive way and that really is a very very subtle and ever deepening thing to really define what it means to not just feel balance physically but feel balance menta

lly emotionally and in a way to even transcend your perceptions of balance such that resembled the time the Buddha there was some a story about you know how he he meditated with this teacher is anyone as far as he could with them and then he said look my mind is still afflicted I still have suffering like how I deal with this they set out out out on you know you can really take that out now you can really fix that just hang out with us you got it real quick you learn the method just study your stay in a lot of students will learn this testator is not good ago I need to find an ultimate truth of release from this thanks that I feel as subtle as it may be cited meditating and then he found his meditation he called it: even on the note of even a means sensation about how means extinction is extinction this is really interesting to me very subtle distinction elimination of all feeling pleasant unpleasant of his three kinds of feeling and Buddhist psychology pleasant unpleasant and neutral in all of our emotions would be classified in those three feelings these were mental feeling in a predominantly psychology but imagine most of us feel very conditioned by feeling now if it feels good we like it if it doesn’t feel good of it until good enough we start not like it it adjusted just adjusted just as one fellow that one-on-one is ten-day retreats very smart guy medical doctor in a very open-minded guy many ways he never stopped and that the technique the whole 10 days is going like this and he never stopped and he didn’t get anything out of it anyone away very just mentally so that was a waste of time cycle course was a waste of time didn’t do it you didn’t stop but you know that would be like agitation based on a lot of in a difficult feeling that he was having a gas so this they… Which would be just a very deep state of transcendent absorptive spacious freedom while still in the bod

y Xavier still in the body but they than on their own and I’m nobody’s apparently at that time Buddha had found this Soviet name it yet again to come up with those those those words he went further now like in terms of experience subtleties there was like at that time there was a word for the Adam was called collaborative level was that the poly word for the Adam he said he saw something more subtle in his meditation in the Adam initially a name that he called it optical up is a more like a cork I guess it’s something but just even more subtle so you know are what happens when we settled down as we begin to see and experience words CME directly experience with indirectly experienced things much more intimately much more subtly much more closely and it seems to me at least that that deepening is infinite it’s not it’s it doesn’t have a limit to it that that that waking up or realizing our potential is is is not like a state that we arrive at and it’s done is an expansive opening into infinity while so there there does seem to be an aspect of putting your body and your mind into the sort of uncomfortable state how how does that kind of relate to what you’re talking about well hopefully not not too much in the sense that you know if you sit down to actually begin some say formal meditation because the point really up of this formal meditation would be to open you up so you could see that the awareness is ongoing it’s the context of our life and that and that that that that the formal meditation begins is something that helps you realize it is possible to actually live meditatively more and more of the time what that means is to actually be relatively free from affliction living and doing all the things that we do so when it comes to the other sort of discomfort and some people experience when they both first sit down well if your life internally or externally is untidy know if you’re if you know dies not good if you know heaven exercised if you take care yourself and you probably can be uncomfortable for a while until you settle down and hopefully get past some of that surface tension some that surface stress can peel off but as far as sitting down and sticking your legs up in a full lotus that’s pretty dumb unless you know what you doing in your hips opened up in your knees is a nice posture of you know how to do it and it works but in ongoing discourses yet to sit on the floor and there wasn’t any walking meditation is pretty intensive United sit for an hour and they asked you not to move it all and it was incredibly painful until you “up and get through some of that surface tension and not usually takes in a ten-day course you know most people by 67 they really start to open up a nine day and it’s like while you know like whole new world of experience is available there and then the 10th day comes and you stuck up talking everybody in everybody’s full of energy and that you know if they know each other kiss and h

ug and if they don’t know each other they might be kissing and hugging and tell them… Recorded over might see these people again but you know you feel extremely intimate because you sure this very very deep no expense of silence and meditation so ill that discomfort was that the first noble truths of these noble truths of truth of existence you said it suffering what’s that mean it means that that life is is is as an element of unreliability about it but everything is happening here is his transient and changing and if your minds attached to that which changes you suffer writer and so that’s where the real pain comes from that’s where the they the misunderstanding is not that’s that that’s the perception of that’s the conditioning that hopefully the meditation can help help alleviate what you think that the breath is so important to understanding meditation because it’s an object that’s there all the time you don’t have the manufacturer don’t have to imagine it is thing about it is that it’s both the physical and mental process other words obviously you know breathing is working in particular body alive to the physical process but also to mental process and that our state of min

d are motional state influences of breathing and so if you start observing your breathing and I’m talking about like the natural breathing not doing like breathing exercises we read a certain way like the pranayama that’s that’s okay too but that’s different what happens is you start to actually your mind starts to actually be seen through the breathing you experience your state of mind expansion motional state there when you state of mind changes to save mine becomes more calm your breath is so there’s a visible linkage there anything that’s helpful about the breathing is that a psychological perspective you know we could just say to use a simple model is a is a conscious or subconscious and unconscious mind and the unconscious in the senses you know everything were not a conscious subsoil would be some peoples minus super conscious mind as well the gate toward the door between the conscious and the unconscious can be softened and opened by attending to the breathing and is pretty interesting because what tends to happen then is in on this is what people have a hard time with that first sometimes of the gun laws stuff unresolved inside sitdown start a tension of breathing okay, right away they are secure, like the feel stuff coming up because the breath is actually helping their mind open and so whatever’s there is going to start to surface of the person a lot of fear and Nanette a lot of sadness maybe they have a lot of confusion Dell Delta start to surface no start to see that if they if they understand how to practice meditation correctly that responding to that by opening by being curious and interested rather than bailing out going and having an ice cream and watching television right when you will you say to people who have deep rooted traumas that attend courses well it it it can be challenging if if you have a look if you have a lot of trauma and you, on a meditation retreat sometimes you can have a hard time unless you have good good guidance and oftentimes oak savanna benefit from from psychotherapy who have, if they’ve got a lot of unresolved things meditation is really good for some things it’s not particularly the greatest thing for trauma and less the person has a real stability of mind at a fellow once it came in he was a really had profound epilepsy very very bad grand mal seizures and he was a really interesting guy was a martial artist and he took himself off the medication while he was in them in the course the meditation and he let himself go through the experience I don’t know whether this was good or not but he let himself go th

rough the expense and he said it was fine he was okay with it I was nervous and this guy was like you know an unusual human being in the sense that he was was like a real warrior and I’m like okay you not hang with human watch this and to learn from you but that your you’re really doing something unusual here psychological trauma emotional trauma it can be tricky and so I think what has to happen there is united you got a kind of person needs to make sure they’re getting proper guidance perhaps they are ready to perhaps not meditate quite as intensively and I had a good friend that one point years ago I did three months continuously of the meditation and I had a guy is a roommate and and this guy would do a three-month course every year so you cannot use up to like his 10th year ago means like three months out of 12 he’s an intensive meditation the hold all three months is like on his 10th retreat and and he and I were like roommates of the will of talking is the silent at the end of that like we were like 2 1/2 months into that and the teachers told him to stop meditating and I asked about after the course is over as it was at about you sit well he was really really really really badly abused as a child and he started encounter some that materially told him to just use off just take it easy just go for walks is going towards you walk around don’t meditate intensively and I think they made a choice there because they felt perhaps this one the best way to approach this moment if you have a lot of trauma in your life th

at came from say early childhood with parents or with caregivers who were treating you correctly one most expenses won’t tend to come up so much in meditation they might but but what of there was no come up in intimate relationships and the best place to heal those experiences in it is in a corrective intimate relationship therapeutically meditation can help cut us off and you and make it available but in terms of actually working experience through oftentimes a therapeutic relationship is very helpful for that a necessary series very interesting so try to formulate my next question here why do you think that this type of activity affects evolution so much understand that there is a conscious we have conscious mind and a subconscious mind and it all seems like the two are at war or in competition for something so how does h

ow does the Posner allow you to recognize these things as it is at the aspect of canceling out all of these external influences like your phone and the Internet and information that the only reason for that is that most of us wouldn’t get all that settled it if we Being attentive to those things if you want to get to a more sensitive undefended and open space in a width let’s just say now the body my process of the meditative setting a quiet meditative setting is very helpful for the as far as this conflict yet either pointing to something that’s really kind of fascinating once said that the best thing you can have is ordinary typical human sadness I got this good as it gets and he didn’t do as much as he had insights into the unconscious mind some wonderful insights he he he met the needs of transcendent understanding of things as exhibited by t

hat statement the best you can get his ordinary human sadness of just go with it no good they did that the rub of the conflict between what we want and what we actually have his profound it’s a extremely subtle and not-so-subtle thing so I’m not trying to sort of just take what you said and pulled into this one little configuration here of what we want contrasted to what we have the illusion is that we can have a happiness through our senses and to contact with this world of things that will ultimately satisfy us and it never does because all these things in this world are constantly changing my relationships my objects of my comfortable mind states my emotions is things that I’m not talking about this in a pejorative way these things by nature come and go so part of the resolution of this of this you might say Rob between what we want and what we actually have is you when you begin to see the nature of experiences what insight happens most people to say what’s going on they can tell you they can say while thinking about my car and up to change the oil and now many don’t have dinner with my friend and I get to bed early worked Monaghan tell you what’s in them mind ho

w you feel in my guilt but how they feel that your body to take about that they’re aware of the content of their experience and they can describe that when you meditate what happens is you go inside the content you begin to see the process of experience and this is where all experiences the same you see the actual process of everything the process of your thoughts your emotions are sensations your breathing perceptions you see the process of consciousness itself and what this processes is change its transformation everything is becoming something other than what was the moment before this second this millisecond this incident is dissolving never to happen again in exactly the way just Over over over and so we really asked to see this experientially this this grasping claim this friction in the mind this conflict you mentioned leases might release just a little bit or might Liselotte won some cases, where it totally releases completely releases and doesn’t come back and in that was happening then as it is it is a is a human being is experiencing and is absorbed and is established in the true nature of the mind the true nature of the mind is liberation freedom suck while at the interesting man it you are just a roommate and she recently attended a ten-day course and is to research I found Mr.’s Indian guy who took the course and he started experiencing the sensation of sort of disconnecting from his bo

dy like you try to feel his finger in his finger was no longer there and he was he was starting he said that he was starting to feel like he was completely outside of his body and he was kind of watching the experience happened from above himself is that something that is common or of the Somerville commented happen spontaneously sometimes the people where they were you you can couple things can happen the body can dissolve meaning like the sensation the body become so subtle that it just the body disorder disappears effortlessly out of the body but it’s a very different experience of the body it’s it’s really actually seeing the body for what it really is an experiencing as it really is which is itself from all its changing is literally more space between the molecules that supposedly make up this form than there are molecules in the movement which scientifically true out of the body’s little bit different like sometimes people will go outside the body and LB experiencing the body sitting there no ceiling note down on it is nothing really special about that it just for some people it lets you know that you’re not just your body that’s conical and in some cases it will actually dissipate fair amount of fear of dying if you have that in you like well it happened to me once I was doing yoga and I just lay down to do like a corpse pose as this one outside the body knows will condemn it was like well cool that I got like nervous I felt your business come up in the house back in the body like it never happened to me before that I will actually cool know some people correctly practice that that’s that’s like not part of a traditional Posner is meditation they pretty much consider that stood like extrasensory phenomena and don’t really put a lot of emphasis to discuss a world just observed that it what happened there of you seen the nature of things are you saying that things come and go

okay that came and went okay no big deal… Same process everything comes and goes the mind sometimes what’s the make something special out of this that of the other thing that is a prison in a way because if I say this is special and I’m excluding these other things when I begin to really open up everything is equally special that’s really really cool to me that’s like justice finally so is it’s not just that we have pot negative thoughts that were trying to eliminate but also we it’s it’s boat that’s all the qualities of thought it any thought so too then is it that your you become sort of more pure by a by a disconnecting the attachment you have good assignment that you have to thought were actually what happens this isn’t so much like a disconnection from thinking or even a necessarily a diminishment in thinking although that sometimes happens it seeing thoughts clearly what they really are as you see the thoughts are by nature they just it’s just energy really constantly transforming then your mind spontaneously spontaneously this is something that happens to effort it’s happen spontaneously your mind stops being is attached the thoughts therefore then it doesn’t quite so much

matter whether this thoughts are not thoughts people who sit in this is a very common this misconception is said and what they want to try to do is get quiet with everything that you’re going for generally in manger threatened by the opposites of five point ago for peaceful mind and amenity threatened by confusion and chaos think about the sick if I’m if I’m very attached to my youth and threatened by old age attached that heterosexuality threatened by homosexuality attached to vegetarianism threatened by mediators attached the mediating threatened by vegetarians attached to Republican debits are threatened by the Democrats goes on on on when you begin to actually see the nature of experience and that means thoughts as well naturally the mind opens and doesn’t continue to be as attached that’s how it works this effort to be not attached is another kind of attachment or people who say I may try not to be identified with anything another busy trying to be not identify with anything so identified with not identified the so much Chasing its tail of Möbius strip just goes around that’s actually with protocol that called that some sorrow for the perpetual wandering is the human being wandering in the mind wandering in the place to this place the place seeking what seeking to strange but seeking actually hopefully the end of wandering while Bob Dylan how life that he called it no direction home at school there is there is an aspect of what makes the Posner meditation so much different than the other meditations that we hear but we hear about not really that much the foundation of a ball meditation really is awareness itself I actually back in the 70s began with transcendental meditation which is like a mantra and it worked great I mean I get really blissed out very happy but I was still quite unintegrated and no fairly neurotic and other places and I was having some wonderful experiences relaxing in a calmness happiness things like that the Posner has a wonderful gift in that at least as I understand it and teach it it it opens up the full integrative you might say framework for your whole life mindfulness or awareness itself is the context of our life and as you begin to see this experientially then you k

now what we would call ordinary human awareness like I mentioned that before like what you doing on sitting in my room talking to the Xavier were doing a podcast know what time visits nine… So forth that’s when awareness meditative awareness is inside ordinary awareness is hiding inside or near awareness meditative awareness is seeing things observing things without interfering with such right here and everybody experiences this this am extent meditative awareness is this meditative awareness wakes up to start the permeate more and more of your life and it has wonderful health benefits discussing benefits and of course it has the benefit of bringing insight nestled transforms our life that’s where real happiness comes from the consummate inside it doesn’t come from getting what one doesn’t come from things i

t doesn’t come from even states of mind and states of body goes those can make you happy to some extent but they all change in site insight is what really brings happiness in going to said that he made an analogy about a tree he said that I by looking at our root issues and going down into the roots because the tree can’t be healthy unless you treat its roots in and everything else so he said that by going down in addressing the root issues of our of our problems really looking at the roots of our of what causes suffering what causes all these uncomfortable feeling stats where the real transformative change occurs you grew that are absolutely absolute no question that end in the classic teachings that going to is very very classical mean he is a staunch true Hindu by birth who was awakened to the meditation but said I’ll keep my religion even though this note Buddhist meditation could just post to shift purist that Hendry don’t jump out and become a Buddhist that spike that imagine that it altered but yeah agreed hatred and delusion greed wanting what I don’t have hatred not wanting what I do have delusion being confused about it those three forces are rooted in ignorance ignorance not meaning like I’m stupid necessarily could be ignorance means ignoring the truth of the way things really are not the not experiencing things as they really are experiencing things through this lens of condition thought and perception so right away week when I say this he could think all of the thing is I got to give her the thoughts and I can

get rid of thoughts the party might try to get rid of thoughts the more you can be a conflict thoughts may dissipate within a not dissipate important thing is to begin to see the nature of the thinking so you see the nature of that agreed hatred and delusion and you see you know what is the call these things the five elements these are incredibly interesting forces that do generate suffering when and not seeing clearly when they were missing clearly they come they appear may dissipate since it will have some people as they start to sit must say they have a lot of wanting in the mine a lot agreed they start to see that clearly and they start to see that unfolding the start to see that dissipate and all of a sudden their happiness smiling sitting there watching them mindful of wanting because their demise not reacting suddenly amazing or they have a lot of hatred it might have a lot of anger a lot of confusion that’s that’s probably the hardest people I think if it isn’t fear its confusion when they start to experience confusion really experience that dealt uncertainty which is a kind of fear that’s where it starts to become very tricky and people will sometimes want to stop that one cannot meditate in other want to pull away visits it can be very frightening know you can you can start to feel very very lost even into Proper guidance of those times incredibly important because you can probably let you have some kind of affliction when you cannot go often take drugs or something and no harm yourself you could be okay but you get spun out because

as you did you go into your experience with really depletes like surgery do you think it’s dangerous for a person to leave a course early it depends on what motivates them to leave you know if they if they were feeling very violent and they left the course unit could be a little tricky they could go often maybe do something really unskillful to handle Gen. Gallardo happens the intensity of the meditation you known the pain that they’re experiencing is usually what drives people to want to leave and then they’ll just go back into their habits and not not that much bad things will happen you know they won’t they will continue to progress to come away sometimes like my friend Dr. Amir he was okay but he am came away with so much more he was very soda from the word subtly judgmental human being he was very cynical as cynicism about it and I think maybe the course and his experience of the fact that he didn’t do it strengthened a certain amount of cynicism in his mind for a while that you know is nothing really last so even if a person goes in a bender you know it’s it’s it’s going to sort out in time hopefully the issue would be of if somebody had some real neuropsychological d

isturbance in the left the course early you that would be a little bit tricky know it be to be a little bit like an analogy would be summary goes into intensive psychotherapy in an inpatient setting and paste the side of pullout halfway through when that really engage with some very painful material and probably would be the best idea right so is looking at your your your history and I noticed that you are a transpersonal psychologist yes how did you does this kind of go hand-in-hand with what you’re doing with transpersonal psychology and meditation, paralleled there or two separate entities live very very complementary note the psychology you know the forward edge of psychology is in this interface with the wisdom traditions and it’ll go to summons so it was the tradition not just a religion but this interface is where the transpersonal in a wakes up it’s it’s where psychology opens into spirituality really end up so for me it’s been a very natural blend of very no easy blend and it turns out that no a fair number of people that I see in therapy

wool at one point or another engage in some meditation and some will will do it quite intensively and really integrated into the life some people come into meditation in the night they see the need for some therapy and so that do some therapy as well but they picked this complement they just break really really beautifully together it’s it’s very easy I find an almost seamless, very cool men were approaching the end here is anything that you wanted to kind of get out any messages or suggestions to people who are looking into the possible end and find it interesting out thank you that’s a wonderful offer you make there to to just some at emphasize the know the opportunity to experience it directly reading about it is interesting is a lot of great books and more and more all the time but I would say you know actually having in the setting aside some time to to not just may be sit for 10 or 15 minutes but to actually not do a course of meditation that’s what you really can see what meditation can offer is that even if it’s just a weekend in the and you stop and give yourself to the case in point in all my have two children there are ones in mid-20s and the others early 20s that the youngest one is a third-year college student and he became on the last retreat that I taught in a kind came out of the blue cinema come on the sites of really great said can I ask you why he said well you been doing it for 40 years and must be something to it and number two is set I I I want this to slowdown I want to give myself a chance to shift at a really p

rofound experience and he said I wanted to more he hasn’t read much about it and then every now and then you know he’ll ask a question ghost that what about that third market existence can we talk about the new pullout something from that in other teachings but mostly he’s just been enjoying the experience of it and and that’s what I would recommend to people is that Tom know they really give themselves a chance to taste it directly through to an actual no period of time where they practice it and that’s I think it’s like I was in the other people play the piano I might like the piano play the piano myself but when I really start to experience it to my own direct playing and I know what it is right eyes are a website that people can find more information about you sure to websites that does the possible website etc. and then is a website that I have fervent psychotherapy etc. and that means transpersonal somatic therapy is the best therapeutic practice very very cool man on thank you so much for doing is a really think that Austin does have something to it and we can we can learn a lot by looking at ourselves and with that you wish you guys good holiday and Xavier human experience will catch you guys

thank you so much they be appreciated explore

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