Episode 53- Transcript – Adrian Van Deusen


Mr. Adrian van do you send Adrian my good server welcome to reach XP is Xavier so much for having me on three during the home I mean let’s let’s start with the basics man I and I love the work that you doing the why don’t you just kind of tells about your background and let’s that set the foundation for this this conversation okay yeah the first important to this clip on the self heart is in this field who are mostly work with our mental health professionals and Dr. type that with degree and my approach to this is there as a learning person someone who teaches and so I got into neural feedback which is will talk about an minute 1995 my father exactly had a training center which was looking to help people with ADD or attention deficit disorder but without medication and that wasn’t at that time and still is sort of shocking to think that one could overcome such a difficult problem without having to taking the pill though this is the model that were in the states was sort of a literally you can stay grandfathered in our father to do the field and began studying with some of the brightest minds of the area that was 1995 supposedly intensive from 95 to 1999 right ran one of his attention development centers in Atlanta Georgia and basically you can save really also are did all of the necessary tests on myself I was person who was skeptical at first being and by applying the technology in the technique myself I learned so much about myself that it helps you my body when I had a terrible you helped me work in health physical health and mental health the power visualization that was quantified one of us work want go with with visualization but do you know the signature of that in your body if you know that signature your body can you can feel it in your body become very effective in that process of visualization and materialization so it seems like this is something that you were incredibly passionate about you got into these are learning about and you will moved forward with because you really thought he could help you and other people well it’s one of those things in life and work comes meet you so actually 1999 after having worked with well over 200 children and having amazing results in myself as well I decided that I would step away from that working go back to more natural gardening and farming whatnot and so when I did lo and behold my neighbor her daughter was the person who had autism and another fellow have was a 12-year-old boy who had little paralysis and was walking of his body and I just happen to have a biofeedback unit and we just happens you see what I’m saying we we guide carried the track forward organically even though I tried maybe to go away from it the work followed me so I’ve come to accept that really the past decade and a half that this is my life’s work and from that I’ve been able to study more than able to have more in-depth conversations with people who are understand the brain better than I brain and physiology body physiology better than I and I guess you might say establish a position for myself as a teacher in the field salutes just defined your feedback and how would you define what your feedback is okay I’m not all that you know right up front of a person who uses analogies; a lot of big words are Bible call it a mirror or the inside of your brain we can see ourselves in a glass your we can PR not ourselves book physical appearance in a glass your we can arrange her hair anyone’s ever had to say will put on makeup knows how important the glass mirror can be or for that matter any athlete or choreographer dancer would not would also say how important glass your be to perfect your art whatever that maybe and so when we put sensors on to the scalp it accept that might grow electrical pulse pattern and with the neural feedback does isn’t is it turns the screen towards the individual was being measured that’s all it creates an electronic mirror of what’s going on inside individual see regal to see a sort of reflection of what’s happening with Dean the brain the the brain waves of the personal your you’re studying more you’re trying to help your able to see your brains functioning animated brainwave but it may also be blood flow a number of measures but your able to see your brain functioning yes in real time and continuously so that’s very different from what I Dr. my due to take a test and then two weeks later you get the results back do not investing state anymore the matter fact we most noticing your is that states will change anywhere between 15 seconds and 45 seconds we constellation between statement of you can perceive that this is that this goes to that old adage that knowledge is power as if you can have knowledge of yourself shortly thereafter come self-control or self-regulation yeah I mean I’m I’m completely fascinated by this this technology in this topic and deny been interested in your feedback for out of the lease a decade and believe screen we for the preshow when we were preparing for the show you kind of had me pick up a bit I was shocked that the ability of this had become sort of cheapening the it’s something you can log into your phone now and your your your smart phone has this capacity you just open this application and liked Apple watches measuring your heartbeat and all these other things to me how how has technology changed for two realm of your feedback and behavior through the last 10 or 15 years would you say that while I started in 1995 and the computer was about the size of a large computer of those enzymes are the bikes not a computer with Exodus the amplifier what it could only pick up one channel EEG whereas today we can pick up 19 channels with much smaller device the operating system the Windows existed we use DOS now you can run on android because the power of of us will follow in his what what is a smart phone let’s say is is the processing power that devices far greater than the computers we were using that and and then let’s talk about how to get the signal and with a smartphone model what what is I think are really genius obvious the state existing technology response was people sought engineer saw that the microphone jack the line and from the microphone was listening and so that instead of her voice they had it transmit body signal in the case where in the preshow but where we did that demo with the galvanic skin response my friend this is measuring that deep inside of you that date sensation of excitement fear butterflies in my stomach is all languages words that we have in our language for a simple electro dermal response that can be measured also I’m not trying to minimize it please understand that I myself am subject to my own emotions also great but how much how much more folks home can I be about that if I know that it is a phenomenon that it’s measurable quantifiable I can have a number value to the it’s like playing tennis with the net I know when I got it right never know when I’m just shy of my Mark’s immediate again this is this is so intriguing to me because there suggests that there can be such a disconnection between a person and they are sort of connection with themselves to this type of technology mentioned GSR telephonic skin response can you get into that little bit more right was named after the guy who discovered it will region galvanic in the late 1700s discovered electricity running through the nervous system of of of a dead frog right you could make the frogs legs twitch and so that’s how old this is this is old that Carl John was using it in his psychotherapy a when he was a psychiatrist in the early 19 it’s these days the same physiology still applies and we haven’t changed the technology has changed catch-up let’s say but we haven’t changed is basically measuring okay a give you an example in real world you know when you shake someone Panama got any sweaty palm is that persons nervous immediately make a quality judgment about their emotional state well it axis, true and what the galvanic skin response does is is basically to to metal any kind of metal will do we usually is silver chloride electrodes because of the conductance value and were measuring how much resistance there is between one electrode and the other one sensor pattern the other right what happens when a person’s hands gets a little bit sweaty that reduces the appearance and makes a single past better and so we just were able to engage this this line graph goes up and down over time were able to engage the present state of the person and and also be able to not not us not the special with the person him or herself can see his own emotional state on the screen we don’t know the quality we don’t know what the person’s thinking or if there happier after angry that can be quantified but we do know that the quantity we know how intensely the feeling that he is just measuring sweaty palms” remote using the simple biological phenomenon and by measuring over time we start to see that this situation is not been a day that relates to my thoughts and emotions but it’s a simple simple technology community you you make it sound so easy in like suet it’s just a in electrical signal that your skin is sending out based on emotional factors there will you even more down-home example this is how does the do-it-yourselfers out there go to awaken go to RadioShack anymore but you can buy of DU meter can buy out impedance meter the turn it through 10,000 right milli-right that thousand and 10,000 and if you find a single that hold onto each one of those old metal rods and you will see that the needle will go up and down the number will change with sinful electrical impedance basic laws of electronics or electrical laws that were able to perceive in our own bioelectrical body and that like you said Xavier that tells us about ourselves. The exam certain to get the picture here about what this is seeming how long would you say a typical feedback session did last and we knew what are some of the type of effects that that I’m going to experiencing while I mean a session okay yeah a single session will basically be as good as looking at yourself in the mirror one time but if you want to good judging you practice over and over) perfect so a single session will last a between happen our 20 hours you spent time in front of your mirror with usually with a goal since you have a gentle moving online on the graphic represents your we can also have a top of and of the graph in the low end of the graph in your concert engage itself in space and maybe set a goal for your so sound that I make that line stay towards the top of the graph that you have a job some practice in that half hour session would you want to come back to that another time that say another time and that week and and through the principal larding principles you know repeats observed adjust and perfect right so that it becomes learned it becomes second nature that protocol which is different from a session CSS is a 30 minute time period of protocol will oftentimes between the be between 10 to 20 sessions when someone is just trying to let’s say get to understand themselves and get better control over there somatic or psychosomatic processes and if there were talking about a person with autism let’s episode with epilepsy that is organic and some to in some senses and so it will take 40 hours 40 visits right a person doing it at home will get bigger you get would you pay for in that regard there are some really high and 19 channel raise the you know a person can go to professional and you have insurance paid for to overcome some major issues like I spoke of a moment ago autism and epilepsy ADD depression of and then there’s also a simple device that you can buy for $200 a little talk your smartphone that will give you a general sense of your state of call and how to hold your attention longer without any let’s a overcome problems it’s personal enhancement in any case you want to that if a rinse and repeat that are criticizing taken time off get a feel for how you were implementing it in your own life without any senses mostly training Wilmot the perpetrating will gone you keeping you get a sense of internal balance then you take it off and see if you can stay balance on the bicycle anyway so you train and take a couple days off and practice on your own just mentally and then you go back and train and see if you improve in overtime you have no data points that will show you a genuinely measurable acceptable by every neurologist in the world same technology measurable output of how you have change or dynamite make yourself more self regulated self-controlled if we can just get into the science of this little bit of mean are you are you measuring this evening to learn that he deserves for calculating and and and measuring the emotions that you were poor processing companies prefrontal cortex mean where is all this electrical activity your occurring in front of one of okay if it’s occurring all over the brain and its it’s well them the first time that I should give you in the scientific approach to this is electroencephalography that graph is the writing so the writing the electrical writing of the encephalon of the brain is just measuring basically amplitude and frequency of the brain’s electrical signal okay now been because of the nature of this capturing there’s a there’s a lot to it but young neurons on on the globe are headed the globe around right so that the little the electrode is sitting on the court on the on the cortex itself but actually on the scout right so the electricity on the scalp and it is going to only picture pick up the field potential of the electrical output of a neuron that particular to it won’t even see the ones that are parallel to write and and also it only pics up those neurons that are non-myelinated we call it gray matter the cortex it’s it’s about a millimeter or not it will five it in the very smart person but the thickness of the cortex is very very small okay very thin film that that follows those convolutions of the of of the brains of it you have a lot of network and a little bit of space when you asked about the amygdala you are asking about what we call us sub cortical or substructure right and is no doubt that these structures like the limbic system and all of its different parts amygdala just bitching that or the hippocampus and and how it’s related to memory those we cannot seem with a single electrode but we know from anatomical science where they dissected brain we know that there are strong nerve tracts that go from these sub generators these sub cortical generators to the cortex as a you make a bit of an inference you know you make it you make up that of an informed guess that you probably are working with the amygdala if you’re electrode is placed around the temporal lobe of the cortex okay it’s it’s it’s one step away from the source but we know that the sources feeding where your reading so so you can start to have a two-way interaction with the deeper structures of the brain that’s the base level with a single electrode but again going to analogy Xavier if you were a geologist you would want to have at least a seismologist would want to have at least three measuring points to be able to discover the epicenter of an earthquake were introduced to to localize the source you need to have a triangulation and so when we use in 19 channel array is like elastic Slip on the headed with a little preparation it can pick up 19 channels all at the same time see not only triangulating your 19 Angel eating is this if it’s if the technology is a mathematical technology called Little red a low resolution electroencephalogram pick tomographic analysis and is coming up to par with what we think is the gold standard is FM a lot so we can see these deeper structures but you don’t have to go to clinical research Center to do that understand that just as with the question of degree but it’s the same basic science amplitude and frequency of the cortex so is me I’m intrigued but if you know me let’s see that I have I’m wearing one of these’s and i.e. in I’m inside it is a sort of session and what are you kind of saying to me how are you directing me to lower the feedback will will yeah I and I get this question a lot of as well as but jump in because this is really where my strength in the field has been part of the of is my ability to turn it into again right to create that that signals coming in and it’s an and I can my company my original company at least would create gaming mechanical game of design around that so they was on to win of a given example we had this one series of games that we produce called the Bayou play series that what it was with we bought the rights to some sensible/came back about a decade ago you would log into flash games online or whatever the playoff the games this is not the code to that and wherever there was a click command in the code I triggered to a catalog that we created for the brain or for any physiology than extent we we we turn it into a racing game so that let’s say you’ve decided you want to increase attention span we plot that attention way know which is the relationship between a couple of ways it’s a ratio the massive mathematical 11 goes down the other goes up and you get to try to car bastard says it really ended up like you’re in the game your it’s part point of view the drive a car down the road and as soon as you go below your own average suitable your own norm the car basically goes to idle and this is across that it starts to starts to go and has to pay more attention over time your accelerate further and further so you can start to win the race’s interest is a very interactive quality to you this this game and the device suffering in your head to your mind your brain is controlling this game right and you set interactive and bad to that into it I can all this talk the having right now will begin contact perhaps that is nothing compared to putting a sensor on yourself like a GSR sensor quiescence on yourself and noticing all my goodness this is this thing is showing me my thought I’d and I thought I was over her you know category that all of a sudden Allison my skin goes all wacky distances I think of my daughter know full whatever right so so that is very telling in it is intuitive cannot be taught to children do better than adults because children don’t have all the rules that’s they distantly play to Bloomington you see that the body stores emotions stores trauma and maybe perhaps there’s a kind of disconnect between the conscious mind and the the book your body and and when you’re in the sort of session and you have this thought about perhaps an ex-girlfriend you have this emotional response in an emotional trigger and you see that through and either GSR or one of the deprave went brain waves kind of signals right there’s different tools for different jobs in photography emotional I was in a GSR is the most directly clear measure of emotional content whereas cognitive processes or listening for creative thought the different states of mind those are morbid there are better served by analytical cyclically so depends on neural feedback the depends on what you’re trying to get at and then to your point of this the body store trauma not only trauma but the story it in my point of view in it and there’s a lot of evidence that points to this I mean… David Bertelli’s work right but there’s a number of other other people that also work on how the fascia the connective tissue will hold onto memories right and so what is pleasure if if were talking about a negative sensation kind of locking up areas of the body being stored in the body made it’s pleasurable to release those right now bright and that and that the pleasure is the root the unlocking of that the physical sense and and that can be had through gross motor it can be had through refined sophisticated feedback mechanism as well I will stay state of that the neither of those cases a medication was necessary for you to understand think the echogenic model I think is starting to be called into question where there some outside influence on the and instead were moving towards the energetic model where the person has all that they need with their them to enhance advance steel is bringing the input in the contact with that in which this is the power of the feedback is that suddenly they have unworthily enhanced awareness it self-awareness on the cellular level the neuron level right and so that awareness then with practice becomes control that’s beautiful… The most amazing thing in Hersh really it’s really simple is almost to supply at grandma talking analogies there’s a lot of science to back this up on trying to make it understandable you know an enjoyable for that matter and why do you think it seems like your feedback is kind of under the radar and not many people know about it now me people really talk on your feedback bring is this because of our serve Western pharmaceutical kind of society where it’s easier to take a pill versus kind of go into your feedback clinic yet exactly and as I said exegetic model is starting to fall by the wayside that you know but there and I’ll I can quantified at least three major international pharmaceutical laboratories will what is called all development funding from mental health disorder medications they just find that equates to a side effects that it doesn’t have the positive affect durable positive effect that they wanted and so they’re getting out of this field and so yes I don’t know about it we don’t know about right now because of synagogue in the 1990s had a $1 billion per year marketing budget and and so if we want our grassroots power as it happens on the transformation of it reads single individual who puts a sensor on measures and learns about themselves gain some self agency and starts talks friends whereas if you know that you’re going up against its Goliath you know it’s it’s $1 billion per year marketing but it’s very hard to overcome that directly and but yes over time that is shifting people are moving away people who took medications are moving away from the medication because they want to be dependent all their lives in a start having liver issues or I I you know I’m not can speak exactly to this and certainly I don’t have the young academic degree to make any blanket statements that I see more and more people coming in and say my daughter tried or my son tried Ritalin being added made them make anxious or nervous or couldn’t sleep or angry end-user something we can do when is an amazing want to sell my Douglas this was this the sticks with me after whether 2012 working with the young is a four-year-old autistic boy that lower level of our age range we want to work but he was nonverbal at four years old he still was in diapers and other was doing everything she could you know so so she brought a man and we were doing blood flow in blood flow to the prefrontal region your the decision the executive your asking and increased blood flow very much can tell of an autistic admit you know make the Bardot this kid that we found I had long what kind of movies is a like all he likes the trained show okay with the transient wanted to make a brighter and look and louder when he’s more the state is very intuitive suffered session walks out of the way to moms away from mommy but it is a like nothing you know but she to start bawling crying and hug her baby was shuttering their you know is the first time in his life is set her need and you know that he’s building a foundation that he will well from that one word to will come sentences will come I haven’t seen for four years so I don’t hundred away is now I know that he was in a normal school and he left he was potty trained of you had get a vocabulary well over hundred words because the brain is looking to be flex it’s looking for the opportunity to interact me that’s the essence of neural plasticity the body teaches the brain how it should right but if if there’s a link there in that case there was a sort of the cause of sexual link between what’s going on in my body and how my brain will adjust to that only help that link It won’t you can take it from there you see that’s durable that’s and and and and she cried you think this is I haven’t got a Christmas card last year but it up a couple years and feels really good is really good and when they say use and our family or whatever I can I have the joy of being able to say well child that it all all I did was up at the senses on I got out of the way you know that’s that’s that very empowering sense that can be gained by energetic model of stealing or learning Egypt I mean it it really seems like that’s quite a dramatic cute story about this autistic child and night I had a relation like this this should be given more attention which is why you’re here unite I really feel like that your feedback is something that people should know about as a tool into used to help themselves I will say that this is not a polemic issue this is not something that people disagree about it’s it is something that certain vested interest try to keep quiet but they cannot question the data were able to use EEG signal were able to show changes over time and we can have waitlist that show that they don’t and that we can be a sham Alstyne back and show that they don’t do it there’s no question to the validity of this stuff it’s just a warm a question of how many people ask for an interview, he people enough at it it it it it is what you’re doing is so powerful because a podcast lives a long time in the Internet it hopefully sometime maybe today maybe a year from now someone will listen to this is my gosh that’s neat I have epilepsy and I really want to stop taking medication really want to drive a car time in my life you know. And and so this voice minute you carry forth well be on my life that’s why hope is that the work can live on in practice… Which back do let’s switch gears back to kind of the research and what it’s teaching us about the brain and you mention your plasticity and a can you can get into what that means and is the believe of the brains and ability to learn and what how do we define her pussy yet well that that the word is of it is good one because it doesn’t find or a plastic flexible malleable and so on that’s firmware for the materialist invented by some chemical company term plastic it needs malleable and so it’s the malleability of the neuron let’s look at a single neuron think of is like a tree when these analogies where the nucleus is the root of the tree the axon where the of chemical where the electrical symbols to go crosses is the trunk of the trio could that no a larger body and then you have all these branches right in the call the dendrites those the number of dendrites of any neuron are going to change with a newborn baby has way millions more neurons Jan a 20-year-old adult however each neuron has very few dendrites as of neural plasticity or the malleability of the neuron is based upon what that shot now we get into spiritual stuff whatthatselfiswantingtodobeit’scrawlrolefromyourbellyovertoyourbackwhateveritisthatbodyisgoingtocreateofthemanintheneuronwillstarttomakeitbutitwillbranchostrichesanotherneuronthestreetamotorneuralandtheywillformasynapsetheywilltheywillnottouchbuttheywillcomecloseenoughtoeachotherthattheelectricalsignalwillbeabletoreachacrossanalmostlikeaforestwhoyoucanhardlyseetheskybecauseit’ssodensethatthatthebranchesarealmostnottouchingbutthey’recoveringuptheskyrightthat’sthat’sasimilaranalogythat’s00wellmatureforestwillcloseouttheotherthegreaterpartofthelightintheskywherethenewforestisjustsomesaplingswithafewlowbranchesgoingoffbuttheydon’tcommunicatewiththeforestrightyoutheneuronaneuronisatreeandinthatanalogyandasitgrowsitspecializestofillinit’stotryandmakethemostdensenetworkpossiblenowthatappliedinbothdirectionssotheysayneuralplasticitywantedoneofthefavoritesofthatthinkIcampuspurposeisfamousforhisneuronsthatfiretogetherwiredtogetherthatisplasticityandalsothatneuronsadon’tfiretogethertheybreaktheirconnectionsiftherethat’slikeyoulearnthelanguagewhenyou’re16buttheneededmusicthe10yearsandwhenyougotothatcountryislikeuscanrememberanythingIlearnedthatthat’sthat’stheothersideofneuralplasticityit’smoreliketheatrophymindwatchingmodelwhereifIdon’tuseitthere’snobloodflowtothoseneuronsthosethosedendriteswillstrokeshowwastheywilltheywillcomedecayortherewillcomefromweekendandbreaktheirconnectionsbutwhereverthereisamessagepassingthatneuronnetworkwillstaystrongthattheprincipalnotplasticityIsayit’salessonthatarebodygivestoupgradebecauseAndersonisareasonI’msayingthisthingthatthelessonarebodyisarebrainyouknowIneedtotouchthetipofmyfingertomynoteswillwhenItrieditforsomeandandworkuprightpostmightyoubeself-evidentitdidn’tworkbutovertimerepetitionrepetitionIstartedtogetitstartedwithmyeyesclosedthecoulddoitatanytimethatabodytellingthebrainthatitneedstohaveanetworkthatconnectsknowssensationwithfingertipsatsuchanwasthatestablishedbecomeseasybecomesecondnaturenowbutitalwayshasthemthebodyinthemiddleknowwhatwedowithneuralfeedbackissomethingentirelynewforthebrainwearecreatingalovethebrainhasnoproprioceptionaroughyouknowthisthemostbrainsurgeriesthepersonisactuallyawakeunderalocalanesthesiaisaneedtopersonalresponseitwillyoufeelthatthatnotfeeltheneedcocaineyourbrainbutcanyoufeelthatinyourwhateverdevisedwhichorwhateversotheycanstarttoseethatinthewakingpersonthethebraincanfeelitselfthat’swhatI’mgettingitthebraincannotfeelitselfsothebraindoesnotknowitselfinthoseinputsandoutputsit’sreceivingfromthebodyinsendingoutatsignalsofactiontothebottombutwhenweputasensorontheonthescalpweamplifythebrainsofsingleandrepeatedrightbackinthroughtheeyesandtheyearsoflightandsoundsuddenlythebrainhasitsownproprioceptivedeviceandveryquicklyneuralplasticitycantakeaffectinthewaythatyouwantedveryveryspecificyoucreatedaprogramthat’saskingmetobringtomoveinsuchandsuchadirectionandyoucanjustsitinthechairandanddothatthatwillmakechangesinthebrainisbeenshownwithoutMRIsbeenshownCATscanstounderstandtheimportantaboundingI’mtryingtothecommunityit’sit’sreallyaprofoundprofoundthingthatyouarediscussinghereimmediateitopensthedoortosomanypossibilitiesandwerepointingifweareabletousethebrainanddeleteyoucan’tseeitselfthroughthesignalsthatwereattachingtoyourheadthenImeanitsuddenlyourcapacitytolearnourcapacitytoHe’llhasexponentiallybetweenwe’rewe’renowdoingthatwerenowhealingcomesitthatokaysoCaseyyoumentionedthatopeningtojumparoundtoomuchherebutontimeislimitedtheymeofyoumentionedspiritualexperiencesuniteandthecuriousifyoueveryouknowifyou’veeverbeenwearingaAndkindwhenintoameditativestateandhadaspiritualtypeexperiencewearingoneofthesemachinesofyeahandthere’sawholeschoolofthoughtisacquirefromthebookcomeoutAlphaThetatrainingofthe21stcentury,lawofandthat’sthefieldiscalledalpha-betatreatithasofagoodhadagreatimpactintermsofthethingsspiritualawarenessspiritualrealizationororenhancingawarenessofthenonphysicalaspectsofourconsciousnessandsoIthinkit’simportantthatIciteCarlbeenwrongwhenDavidBoweyoubothandthere’sintheirstudiesofhavenotlocalizedkindorinotherwordstheyfoundtheconsciousnessnonlocalphenomenonthepersonalookinthebrainandthecoherentlyunconscioushereiswhereIdisagreethereconsciousnessagofindthefactofconsciousnesswritingoftheincidentit’snotbecausethematterfactthere’sintheplasticityspeakstothetohavethisinmyviewspiritthatenteredabodyofanewbornchildthatspiritistryingtofigureouthowtodrivethatbodylanguageonyouhowtodriveacarorairplaneisthatthatbutinhisisyouknowintuitiveandheadsgoontrialanderrororerrorandtrialkeepgoinguntilyougetitbutbutwhenapersonisdoingneuralfeedbackseeingastheyhowthisinternalitenhanceawarenessiwillnotsaythattheirseeingjustthebrainoffhowcanimakeaclearintheirtheirtheirtheirobserverswakinguptheeyesthebigidoself

Share Button