Episode 43 Transcript – Rick doblin

And humane handling brain hemispheres at entertaining and mentally invented telling me right now is an excellent frontotemporal occipital I take you to the list and what’s of folks who is still good to be back to the units are in a room some time off and everyone I mean it’s great to be back and have an amazing in the citizen Dr. Rick Doblin very niche is the founder of multidisciplinary Association for psychedelic studies in this exit cover a vast range of topics to illnesses still the conversation is the far-reaching and should stick through it. Something about makes personality his persona that makes you believe that this is possible this happen and it’s it’s really amazing the experience and wisdom that comes through in this conversation also in this conversation my friend don’t want our help the cohost and you are going to be hearing more from him it was was good because I noticed dominoes working the psychedelic field and I really respect what he’s doing for the community so he degree very proud of him for his first cohost otherwise there are some major changes coming for the podcast and overhauls that were doing but they’re all good things and necessary I think because one drugs and the DMT molecule spirit molecule contest will go up I’m still manicuring that and finishing touches on that next he setting up the membership section 40 guys were you will have access to a whole other level of content so that’s what I’ve been working on we also picked up a sponsor for this episode very happy about that this is a company that I personally vetted and I would never put anything in front of you my listeners that I didn’t feel comfortable using myself these companies that that made sponsor us are going to be things that we person that you can rely on that level, and when you put thing out there that is? So thank you guys so much for all the support these messages telling us how amazing the podcast is I love those send more value the different help it helps to but after homicides and without much further do here is our episode with Mr. Rick Dalton thank you guys so much for listening this episode of the human experience podcast is brought to you by find mindfulness mindfulness these days is huge mass media is starting to understand the benefits of time to pause and reflect have you ever been interested in mindfulness in meditation of you wanted to create a practice but you just fall off track wrote Mrs. were fine mindfulness comes in the offer a community that will help you create this powerful lasting habits that keep you training
whether you are the CEO of a Fortune 500 company or a college student running a startup find mindfulness can help you find mindfulness is a very program how often are you looking at your cell phone just ask yourself how often you look at yourself and then tell yourself that you need to take this course mentions human experience go and sign up right now at www.findmindfulness.com the human experiences in session my guest tonight is Mr. Rick Doblin Dom you are is going to be helping us cohost for this conversation with my good server welcome to reach XP and really so break and have found it is this institution can you tell a pretty please tell the audience who you are and what you do please will will doctorate that when you say a PhD from the Kennedy school of Government at Harvard on the regulation of the medical use of psychedelics in marijuana so that was my dissertation obesity policy so I have a simultaneous training in working as a therapist the trend was then brought in the breastwork the hyperventilation or producing experiences similar to LSD and other of the psychedelics that my training is about helping our culture Saturday was psychedelics get over that they started maps in 1986 and the DEA had previously criminalized MDMA in 1985 and before that I had another nonprofit 1980 work that we used with EM psychedelic therapy community to sue the DEA to try to keep preserving the therapeutic use of MDMA around half million doses have been used in therapeutic settings personal growth settings quietly under the name Adam and so this was added time of Nancy Reagan and the just say no program and the escalation of the drug war in the culture wars and it felt like at the time that the only way that there would be possible to bring the therapeutic use of MDMA another psychedelics back was through the FDA science and medicine for healing purposes in particular trying to do for healing purposes of people that the mainstream had sympathy for and and so is now been almost 30 years next year is the 30th year of maps and were were close actually a lot closer than we’ve ever been there’s two moving through the FDA system were about to complete an international series of these two pilot studies with MDMA assisted psychotherapy for posttraumatic stress disorder we started these in 2000 of the first one was in Spain for two years and I got shut down by the Madrid antidrug authority after their family positive media and then we a starter for study in the US in 2004 and so without anticipating that we can make MDMA into a prescription medicine by 2021 that’s our current time on your your attitude towards this means the remarkable considering be sort of opposition that you are facing with the American government and legislation we have to go through to get this type of research regulated and done I mean how did you find yourself in a position to do this and how you maintain this requested well I first decided what I wanted to do when I was 18 years old in 1972 I didn’t know how but I knew what and over the last decades now 61 I figured out a lot more about how but what led me to that decision when I was 18 part of it is that I had decided to become a draft resister to Vietnam and anticipated going to prison for that and when I shared this discussion at a discussion about this with my parents their attitude was that you I’d never be able to get a normal job and then they weren’t opposed to what I was saying they just pointed out that there was a criminal record your can be a doctor or lawyer things like that and so I thought well if the price of of having an oral mainstream job is be willing to off to Vietnam and neither kill people allergic yelled it was worth it so I felt like what am I get a deal but what really get it was the sense that in the war in Vietnam that that there was a lot of emotion all calls to action by politicians but that it was fundamentally a terrible mistake and previously at you growing up my earliest influences in the political sense about the wide world was when I was pretty young young 1012 years old and really learning about the Holocaust and I’ve got to see relatives that are killed in the Holocaust them is them Jewish I’ve Israeli relatives and they were some of them involved in the war 1948 and so I just was starting to grapple with this idea of culture is being basically insane then and so projecting out there shadows of the others in trying to destroy and that those that they were psychological factors that were really crucial to survival and so I I grew up at a time when America was unquestionably the most powerful country in the world you know my dad was a doctor so we had more than enough to eat and to travel and so the survival needs were taking care of but I was shaken by the possibility that the crazy cultures I want to come and kill me and you when you learn about Jewish history it’s like over and over and over different kind people want to kill the Jews then what radicalized they even more are not even more but especially was the Cuban missile crisis and this concept of the terrible terrible power of nuclear weapons and how we are facing this and credible escalation arms race with Soviet Union and we possessed weaponry that could your destroy everybody on earth not just Jewish people that everybody and it then again that there was this projecting the shadow outward to say that I would’ve preferred to live in Russia which was still totalitarian state but that we ended up I just felt like that the survival human race is really unclear and it’s based more on psychological factors than on resource questions mean that the astonishing if you look at it that you know 70 billion people and we have enough with enough we were equitably distributing them we have enough food and what are we are destroying the environmental of different ways was another aspect of of people being blind a certain externalities so it just felt like first of the Holocaust secondly of the arms race and thoroughly the Vietnam War that that I got very interested in psychological factors and then also I started thinking about certain kind of spiritual questions like you are we fundamentally different then people that have a difficult skin or different religion are different country of the different ways that we identify ourselves are usually ways that we both have our own individual identity but they also separate us from other people and so I started thinking about if we really could understand our commonality that that would have political implications and I was service hearing that in the cultural around me growing up in late 60s and you kind of year about the Beatles in charge peppers lonely heart abandon the influence of LSD and only things that I would was raised to believe that LSD made you permanently crazy that if you talk at Gary were basically you have it have a very difficult time as an adult making your way in the world because you’d be off-balance from LSD and I was you race to be scared of the substances until I read one for the cuckoo’s nest by Ken Kesey and the book was fantastic in front of mine said that some of that was written while he was under the influence of LSD so I really couldn’t believe that and that maybe start questioning what I’d been told and then as a college freshman in 1971 and then early and 70 to 70 take LSD for the first time in seeing that what I’d been taught was bunches of propaganda and that there was this possibility of feeling more connected and not just the thinking about it but feeling it in a very deep and profound way and I sort of woke up to the value of psychedelics as the backlash was coming down backlash against the 60s and drugs were criminalized and research was shut down and I felt like years these tool that does seem to help people have a sense of connection and then it has implications for everything you know for the environmental movement for civil rights movement for religious tolerance for women’s rights it it just felt like if you can focus on consciousness changed towards opening towards spirituality and even what your document the human experience if we can understand that the human experience is really of life and death and growth in love and children that that the best transcends all these other ways that we try to divide ourselves and then you are part was growing up at a time of going to the moon and then eventually seeing the earth from the most you know the pictures of the whole earth it’s it just felt like there was something fundamentally healing both individually and culturally and on a planetary basis of that kind of unitive experience and for me a didn’t really come from my permits it really felt like the psychedelics were the way for me and also for many people and so I felt R&M probably cannot go to jail for being a draft resister I can of normal job but these tools have been demonized by the society that you were you are ready you’re ready to go to jail institute you you’re ready to do what you had to to win is that is that accurate yeah yeah I mean this is the middle I was 18 I mean I didn’t start maps effort or 14 years but the the idea was that through my family I felt like I could get survival support and met giant was a counterculture drug using criminal that’s out at age 18 I identified myself and I was willing to go to jail and then I thought that was happening but Yogi sometimes you project omnipotence on the system when the system is just an enormously complex and incompetent days you are turned out 60,000 people never registered for the draft and your people would shoot themselves in the flatter themselves in any number of different ways a runaway to Canada or do all sorts of things to get out of going to Vietnam and the most simple thing if you just didn’t send in your postcard at the very beginning to say hey I register for the draft nothing happened is like giving ever as though close in that way and so that was a relief for me at your Pres. Carter the first and off the Spartan all the draft resisters so I feel like the arc of my life is trying to move from counterculture drug using criminal to being a mainstream drug using legal law-abiding citizen is Dr. Bolan it seems like if you touch talk a lot on what psychedelics can offer the society and your definitely an expert and you have changed the face of psychedelic research start your career of and given the current trajectory of the research on what would you see psychedelic assisted psychotherapy in five years or 10 years are 20 years don’t like what’s the future for this conference the research okay thank you for question two so quickly feel like right now 2021 is one will have MDMA assisted psychotherapy approved by FDA of course the after of guilt raise many many millions of dollars and we have to train more therapists in the results are studies have to turn out as we anticipate but in around five years we think that both six years we think that will have MDMA approved as prescription medicine and also that I have to research Institute will have sulci been approved for people with anxiety related to cancer so once you get some medical permission for use of psychedelic assisted psychotherapy is not can be like a normal Madison the only people with certain training are to be able to prescribe that and then it may also be limit that it at least initially only certain kind of club the next so like methadone initially had to go to clinics to get it or kidney dialysis centers because what were saying to the FDA is that is not the drugs that are the healing if the drug assisted psychotherapy combination so word have to create contexts that are like the research context the combined pharmacology to drugs and psychotherapy so that I think starting in 2021 were in the be establishing a network of psychedelic clinics and I think other people be able to start their own clinics it’s not likely have a monopoly on these clinics and will eventually these clinics will be not just an MDMA clinic or sulci been clinical be people that are cross trained in how to administer MDMA are but Mr. sulci been and these clinics the best model for that so far in history for me is the hospice centers and so in 1974 was the first hospice where people can have a different approach towards dying outside of a hospital where their pain is taken care of but they’re not no longer being medicalized trying to just extend their life one more day there just being permitted to die in a more graceful way till by 2024 that might Tuesday of 2004 30 years later there was 3500 hospice centers so I think once we guess I got approved as prescription medicines in 2021 been will be a period of 1020 years of the clinics spreading throughout America and Europe and elsewhere in the world and then I think really have a population that’s really educated properly that understands the risks and benefits and then will start moving towards really fully ending prohibition and ending this whole concept that the government should step in between you and whether you take a certain substance I love this time of what you’re talking about I think I agree with it and there does seem to be the sort of ayahuasca movement that I see happening in the psychedelics and people are waking up to that but just about drug the kind of want to explore your journey and this the battles and internal things for you what do you think in your opinion was the hardest thing that you had to overcome in this journey that your on while in a way the hardest is that I identified being a counterculture drug using criminal and so trying to think of myself as not somebody on the outside you know raising this issue that they everything would be better if if psychedelics were just legal and available to people but started to think of myself as part of the mainstream because I care and that addressing a lot now to as the confessor changing you ayahuasca is spread throughout society a lot of its uses technically not religious so is technically not legal but still it’s been used by people throughout the culture and been people’s attitudes are changing dramatically and trying to think about what is the goal I mean I think part of the 60s was Timothy Leary the whole counterculture that you know that there was something essentially radical about psychedelics and signal abusers challenging the status quo and it could never really be incorporated into society and so I bought into that initially thousand be underground psychedelic therapist and try to bring it back I didn’t know that that will be possible setting and letting go that romantic rebellious idea of that on the one on the outside that knows writing to do that spin really difficult that the other part for me that spin difficult is learning how to the patient that there is just so much resistance and and has been for so long to sustain the focus I’ve had to really do a fundamental sort of mental trick I guess to say which is that instead of I live first get really frustrated about the things I would do and I be shut down in your efforts I would try that would be blocked and that I had to redefine success and so success for me became trying what I thought was most important than trying my best and whether it worked or not it’s beyond me it’s it’s a big cultural issue in its dependent upon so many other factors out of my control but if my success was depended upon actually achieving what I was trying for I will would of been frustrated are not a long time ago so figuring that out that that just trying hard and trying as best I could and that’s a listening intestine the outcomes and just thinking at least in my own little life this is what I’m trying is what I value and that’s all I can do know and that the end of the day if I was happy that I wanted to that day them whether the work was on some it is being blocked are not that it was so successful data there was one time about them 15 years ago where I was so frustrated that I just had to stop work for a weekend paint my house is this so glad that I could do something that you know I could see that I was actually making a difference and you go to bed admitted at night I’d say how getting it is all right it so after that week obtaining the house I kind of recovered my mood and was able to go back and start trying to get permission again for you research the moment around the same on same lies when you were just talking about about wanting to be underground psychedelic therapist when you’re younger I’m sure there are a lot of people in their 20s now that are also going through that phase of this resurgence of psychedelic research but it seems like now you have created framework for those people to be able to actually get careers in those and in the psychedelic research feel so welcome to what would you like to tell the generation the next generation of people that want to become psychedelic researchers and what they would have to do in a way to get into that that specific up career that’s it is well I think first time and you realize this but that love you don’t realize that there’s been roughly 50 years of work since say 1965 to make it so that the young generation your now the first generation in 50 years that if you want to have an above ground career in psychedelic research psychedelic psychotherapy that you have that possibility it’s incredible how long it’s taken but that you are generation that really can imagine an above ground career in this field so then the second thing to say is that in order to make psychedelics and Madisons it’s a very narrow pathway and the FDA basically is saying you need to prove safety and efficacy but you don’t need to know how it works you don’t need mechanism of actions to make a drug into a medicine so we are focusing mostly on studies in patients and other groups as well but there is a whole area of neuroscience and how these drugs actually work and how consciousness is structured so that there’s many many different ways that people could become involved if they wanted to and one of the most important I think is therapeutic because we have so many billions of people that are traumatized at just life itself the even people that are in a foreign down the loving families you know my aunt died of cancer when I was four years old the note everybody is exposed certain kind of traumas and and then we all need therapy in different ways so I think trying to be, psychedelic therapist is of the kind of training you get is just learning how to do regular psychotherapy and delete psychotherapies that involved of emotional expression rather than emotional suppression and also so there’s a lot of value in cognitive behavioral therapy but it and and parts of that are used in psychedelic psychotherapy but it’s goes beyond just changing your ideas so I think that people want careers in psychedelic psychotherapy could look at of the whole breastwork hyperventilation the technique developed by Stan Groff Gestalt therapy of there’s this whole range of ways we learn nothing therapy but then does the neuroscience of people want to really start teasing apart what is consciousness and how to psychedelics helps understand that that’s all area of research that there’s incredible study ring being done right now in Switzerland it’s combining science there psychotherapy and Zen meditation so for people are interested in meditation techniques there is this research is being done now where lifelong meditators are being given brain scans at the University of Zürich before and after receiving participating in about a day Zen meditation retreat during which time know get sulci that and then they’ll be evaluated for compassion altruism how it affects her meditation practice and what it does to their brains so there’s this in norms potential of science and religion coming together science religion meditation spirituality so people who want to even like Castro counseling or want to focus on meditation there’s opportunities to do that you were even from the business pineal how do you run the psychedelic clinics you know it is not the same as the bed-and-breakfast but we we got a joke that our research is like psychedelic bed-and-breakfast because you know we we have the eight hour psychedelic therapy sessions with a male-female co-therapist team and then we require the patients to spend the night in the treatment facility and then that’s for them to have timeout to reflect to integrate and then the next day we serve and breakfast them but then there’s more hours with the psychotherapist to try to integrate it which should be done yeah that’s ideal that’s the way to get the most out of it and and even if you people are doing and recreational contexts if you can give yourself the next day to rest and reflect and think it over it’s like an enormous gift to yourself to focus not just on the experience but on the integration of the experience so there’s there would be thousands eventually of the psychedelic clinics and I’ll be all sorts of opportunities for just retired careers and and part of this understanding that psychedelics is bringing to us is about that mind-body connection that is really not so separate and that before MDMA was illegal in the late 70s early 80s there were people that were doing MDMA massage and focusing on emotional expression so the there’s these like a syncretic careers you can imagine the people that learn about massage and a lot of times during massage sessions you will be tensions in the body that that when you release them there’s kind of emotional aspect to it and when you do a massage when people are the influence of MDMA were you medium dose oversteer or things like that people are sort of supported and nurtured to get deep down into their psyche and then let out these kind of feelings some of the that kind of combination your mind-body work that I there’s opportunities for people to to get involved in doing that and and even people are just in terms of rituals to try to create when people are under the influence in and we got a lot of thousands of years of development paper we are jumping around here and you your your kind of assembly artist you kind of the competition is good but you say in your opinion and were were approaching the end so would you say in your opinion is the most influential person for you in your life well I would have to say my parents and Stan Groff and wife well might make will A wife or Stan Groff so when I was supposed drop for those who are not familiar with his work Stanislav crosses of 84 years old now we still live you was a warning that Czechoslovakia now the Czech Republic in the want to become a psychiatrist and in the 50s he was working as a psychiatric resident in a clinic where Sandoz pharmaceuticals from social and send a bunch of LSD and said okay this incredible stuff it could be useful in the training of therapists because of get a temporary sense of what it’s like to be insane without a Silas D or it could possibly have therapeutic applications and so Stan ended up becoming the world’s expert on the use of LSD since psychotherapy and he helped found transpersonal psychology which is a field this an outgrowth of humanistic psychology humanistic psychology being about the human potential and self-actualization and then transpersonal psychology being about self transcendence in the more spiritual aspects and so when I was 17 years old at college and started trying to do LSD and then I turned 18 and I really didn’t have the emotional capability to handle it properly I wasn’t able to let my emotions flow and a lot of scary experiences I had a intimation that this was really helpful and useful and it was healing a split that our society was way over developed intellectually and underdeveloped emotionally spiritually and so was I supposed he was kind of this cool of you laying out but I went to the guidance counselor at my college and so that I’m really having a very difficult time with these trips and unmeasurable you stay in college and he said here’s a book by Stan Groff that I suggest you read and it was a manuscript copy before it even been published of the called realms of the human unconscious and when I read that it all came together for me is this was science this was healing this was spirituality and it had a reality testing of therapy are people actually getting better and so I thought I would reach out and actually wrote a letter to stand in 1972 and he Reaver replied back to me and that’s kind of inspires me to try answer all my mail as well because stem said that there were no opportunities the research was shut down I had to go a workshop withstand in the summer of 72 five day workshop and discover really inspired and then later in the 80s I Stan after the crackdown on LSD And he and his wife Christina were able to develop a nondrug technique through hyperventilation to keep the work going into keep explaining about the use of non-ordinary states of consciousness and I just was withstand them I took of Israel for the first time in his life in a three-week tour through Israel worries doing breath work workshops and lectures and you just been through now China through South America so Stan is been my the intellectual spiritual mentor throughout my life ever since I was 18 and I’d say my parents because when it on the oldest of four kids of those first when I was in college and then in my middle of my first year is like our dropout and study LSD and I asked them to pay for and that my dad was particularly impressive because he said I think you’re making a mistake but I think if I don’t help you were in the stick with it longer than you should just to prove to me that it’s not a mistake and so if I help you to do this you realize it’s a mistake sooner and then he said no and maybe just a shred of doubt I have maybe you know what’s best for you and so I found that I had this kind of unconditional love from my parents that even though I was going a complete different direction they didn’t want me go and they still helped me and so I feel like you both my father and stand in my mother you really help me forge distal direction of my life so it it seems like you freely given your life to a psychedelic research and of going back to the data itself regarding the the success rate of this type of therapy in comparison to conventional therapy for post about espresso something that you be able to tell us what the data tells us about the success rate you know you will that the first thing to say is that we only because for political and scientific reasons the only people that we have studied in our various research projects around the world for MDMA assisted psychotherapy for PTSD the only people he studied are those people have already failed to achieve relief with currently legal available options so there called chronic treatment resistant PTSD patients when we start with the hardest cases goes if you can show that you’re helping artist cases that makes an even stronger argument flies out our first study was 21 people mostly women survivors of childhood sexual abuse an adult rape and assault and they had had PTSD for an average of over 19 1/2 years and they had failed on both psychotherapy and pharmacotherapy and at the end of our study over 80% of them no longer had PTSD it was just a remarkable and people were astonished at the results our current study now the another part is that the currently available of what we did a 3/2 your follow-up study after it so the question is the people just take psychedelics MDMA in particular the have this beautiful experience of and for a certain kind of time there’s an afterglow in your lament phase in a problems combat or does something fundamental happened while there under the influence of MDMA that really changes their brains and changes their attitudes and the only way you can really tell that is through a long-term follow-up so once we completed the study we did a long-term follow-up and it was an average of three and half years after the last MDMA session in only one of these people had gone on to do MDMA on their own and said to us that that she would never do that again because it was not the safe supportive contact she had experienced during the therapy and what we found is that after 3 1/2 years on average the PTSD symptoms that even declined a tiny bit more now some of those people had relapsed meeting a few of them had had trauma in their life that cause them to reestablish these unhealthy patterns of PTSD we spent the rest of the group got even better and so we’ve gone back to the FDA and we said could you give us permission to give an extra MDMA session of these people that were traumatized and they said yes and two out of those three got better again without having PTSD so that’s the results from our first date and the normal treatments for PTSD of the nondrug therapies cognitive behavioral therapy prolonged exposure cognitive reprocessing therapy there’s there’s a series of nondrug psychotherapies and they have a pretty good success rate of 4050% or so but they have very high dropout rate shell a large number of people again somewhere the neighborhood of 40 for 50% can’t do the fair because when you start talking about the trauma it’s just read traumatizing it’s too painful so we’ve now just finished a new study of the first study as I mentioned mostly women the study now mostly and man is 24 subjects and it’s veterans firefighters and police officers with chronic treatment resistant PTSD we didn’t think that we would actually get any firefighters and police officers we knew we get veterans there were so many veterans coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan with PTSD but for political reasons we said okay were to say it’s also for first responders firefighters and police officers in the end we did get 20 veterans three firefighters including one who was from New York was involved in 9/11 and one police officer and we only had two people drop out of the study and so that’s of much much lower dropout rate but the reason that one of them dropped out is that after one session and this was even 75 mg they felt so much better they didn’t need to be in the rest of the study so a graphic is there cure and then the other person the dropped out was somebody who got the load sewer comparing high-dose medium dose and low-dose and this person at the low-dose and what we found is 25 or 30 mg of has anti-therapeutic effect kind of get activated a little bit but your fear of difficult emotions is not reduced so we have a tremendously low dropout rate and more and more what people are using scientists and statisticians are using a measure called effect size and so that’s the if you have a very small effect but a very large number of subjects you can get statistically significant results so statistical significance has been the measure that has been mostly use and a lot of people know about all this was statistically significant are not but that doesn’t tell you the the death of the experience of the therapeutic benefits West excises the new measure so we’ve look at all of our studies and now we’ve we completed studies in Switzerland to in the US we’ve got two more going to work one more going in the US and Canada and Israel and are effect size is over one which means it’s a very large abstract science so the statistics are great and work were about to in early 2016 go to FDA and say we would like you to consider this a breakthrough therapy and breakthrough therapies are for serious or life-threatening diseases for which there’s a patient population that other available techniques and not helped so that will be both science and politics weather will get breakthrough therapy but the the the clinical results that were getting justify in our view breakthrough therapy and the effect sizes are large and the safety profile is great so I should add that your we hear stories about people overheating arrays they take MDMA the overheating they die and sadly that does happen and it’s fundamentally different though the risk profile in the clinical setting is so the development are on those lines know there are people that you know hearing about this research will go out and try to engage with these experiences in a nonclinical setting what would you say is the best way to equip those people to better engage with those experiences using psychedelics and all clinical setting what we have what’s called the treatment manual describes our therapeutic approach and tries to standardize and that’s posted for free on the mouse website so I think of people can understand how these drugs are used in therapy that will be really effective the the other thing sadly to say is that our our government approach our system of prohibition which is falling apart but it still in existence is a harm maximization system the design that the purpose of these war on drugs is to make life worse for the drug users so people won’t want to do it and one of the main ways is that people no longer can have any confidence that if something is sold as MDMA or ecstasy or Molly it may have no MDMA and in all and so I think the people have to be equipped with a healthy degree of skepticism and doubt about what it is that they’re actually getting and what they think they’re getting may be completely different so ecstasy data.work is project run by era would the ROW ID.org and and safe mass of started so there’s a way to send and pills to be analyzed so I think that’s a big part of the other part to a quick people is to really recognize that what your attitude is makes a big difference of that if you look at these experiences is just a party drug just for fun the same as Gillard’s MDMA rosier thing like that but part of the psyche is working through difficult issues that it’s not like when people have what’s called people sometimes called bad trip you know I think they just got unlucky that is inevitable and people that are working with their psyche was thing that you will inevitably have challenging difficult things and that’s actually to be welcomed that’s instead of suppressed doubts coming to the surface of your attitude is I only want to have a good time am only doing this for fun when summing difficult comes if you try to suppress it it makes it worse is the difference between a bad trip and hard trip right that’s exactly one of the things that we say about our swimmers end of project that works at burning Man and other festivals around the world try to help people who have difficult experiences psychedelics in recent one of our principles is difficult is not the same as that and so if you go to our website and look at present of project of the psychedelic harm reduction there’s a lot of principles there that apply to therapy but also did taking these out of therapeutic settings you are interesting Rick I sincerely appreciate your time serve you are very cool person of where can working people find more about maps and and find find you well one of the ways is through our website maps.work and deal with list pretty hilarious is that around 1994 mass was about I think is like number six 600 website in the whole world and this this fella called me up and he said that you had this tragic situation of his son diameter single crash and the only way he could work through that you found MDMA pretty helpful and he wanted to donate and give back anyone to give maps a website in my first response was once a website so we been accumulating information on our website you know for more than 20 years so we have an enormous wealth of information on maps.work and I suggest to people go to that but there’s also a list of conferences and events are taking place we’ve had large international conferences that we call psychedelic science in 2010 in 2013 grit have another big one in April 2017 where we bring psychedelic researchers from all over the world is the be in Oakland California and you I make various public talks around the country and around the world all of that people could learn about on the maps website and we also have a free email newsletter the comes out about once a month that you could sign up for our Facebook page and we have an incredibly talented the social media team so there’s all sorts of information available on her Facebook page in her twitter and we can try to really recognize that while the therapy is crucial and were trying to go make MDMA and others I go to marijuana into prescription medicines the public education part is really the most crucial because the attitude of the public either will produce support for politicians want to suppress this or support for politicians and regulators wanted open the door and I think that there’s just as an example boat require the women’s magazine were particularly reaching out to to women and mothers and families as they have a lot of fears about their children in the September issue with them Irish Miley Cyrus on the cover is just starting hit newsstands it has a terrific article about our MDMA PTSD research with me Guy think you were breaking into the sort of mainstream media outlets and their actually saying positive things instead of yellow suppress all of essence of the culture is changing but I really think it’s in the hands of young people as to whether this is really going to produce a society where we’ve integrated psychedelics and the experiences that they produced was really is not about singletons about ourselves in psychedelics are just doorways into ourselves and into our deeper spiritual selves in the world is coming together the time of globalization it’s a time where we need global spirituality need to replace fundamentalism with mysticism and if and it’s clear that my generation we made some openings that were not can be able to see it all away through and so that’s where so encouraged that the younger generations will come to appreciate this and maybe some people will also develop their lives this ago psychotherapy and and to these kind of nurturing experiences to help her human race know find a way to survive on this planet rather than destroy it Unmarked think about and I think that anyone with this program is in the direction of producing record by truly appreciate your time to me on going to say here at the end read oldest thank you so much I I actually got to be human services go the Stanislav Gross of the wanted it was it was a pleasant is great rooms from now with you think you so much for forgetting is his opportunity of you know I’m am so glad that you gave me this opportunity to reach out to only the people this is the human experience my name is Xavier and guys next week


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