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we are the intimate strangers thank you
for listening ladies and gentlemen
welcome we’ve got a phenomenal show
planned for you guys this evening we’re
gonna be speaking with dr. Steven C
Hayes so if you struggle with anxiety
panic attacks self-defeating thought
patterns or if you’re looking for ways
to actively improve the relationship to
your thinking and your mind this is
gonna be a show that you want to hear so
sit back grab a drink and enjoy this
conversation the human experiences in
session my name is Xavier katana my
guest for today is dr. Steven C Hayes
dr. Hayes is a psychologist who has
spent his career analyzing human
language and cognition he achieved his
PhD in clinical psychology at West
Virginia University and he is currently
a Nevada foundation professor in the
behavior analysis program at the
University of Nevada dr. Hayes is the
author of 44 books and over 600
scientific papers he’s ranked by Google
Scholar as among the top 1,500 most most
cited scholars in all areas of study dr.
Hayes it’s a pleasure welcome to hxp
really happy to be here with you saver
so I’m I’m really amazed by this book
dr. Hayes I mean you’ve outdone yourself
I ripped through it I thought I thought
it would take me some time to read this
book because it’s about 300 pages or so
but I really really enjoyed the reads so
before we get there though let’s let’s
start with a little bit of your history
who you are how you got into this line
of work tell us that give us a little
brief you know introduction about who
you are and what you do please well if
you’d asked me that early in my career
I’d say you know I’m a clinical
psychologist I’m interested in cognition
and trying to help people but early on
in my academic career I developed the
panic disorder which gradually took away
almost everything over about a two or
three year period and in that experience
it really challenged me in terms of what
am I here for what am i up to and I had
to have that sense of almost losing
everything before I could find an answer
to that question and what I found was on
the other side of the panic and maybe we
can talk a little bit in the
conversation about a liberated mind as
to kind of how that turn was made but
what I found when I turned towards the
anxiety itself was a person who had
watched domestic violence in his home
and had made an early decision that I’m
gonna do something about it
and felt that eight-years-old completely
inadequate to that that kind of
suppressed those memories I kind of knew
them I could have said them and so you
know I think at the beginning of my
career I would have answered that
question in the way I said but really
what I was up to was trying to build my
Vita and get grants and be famous and
and I think really the person that
you’re talking to right now you know
what I’m up to is trying to make a
difference in the lives of those who
suffer and empower people to turn
towards what brings meaning and purpose
in their life and the thing that’s
different maybe the one thing is
different
as enough of a geek scientist when I
really walked through that
transformational process myself mm-hmm I
did a couple randomized trials I quit
early on I mean the idea that you’d turn
towards you know Eastern ideas in the
early 80s mmm there wasn’t the Jon
kabat-zinn it’s out there to hold your
hand to kind of walk you through it you
know there wasn’t Lenna hands there
wasn’t you know it was a very different
world and I was enough of a hippie from
California to know I was now in the
strange land of you know Eastern
traditions and the kind of things my
entire generation explored right and so
what I did is spent almost 20 years
really in almost invisible trying to get
down to the processes that lead to these
life expansion type moments and we came
up with this core we call psychological
flexibility and then finally I wrote it
up right around the turn of the century
and it’s now I was 310 randomized trials
303,000 and 500 Studies on it and an
entire community around the world tens
of thousands of people millions of
copies of act books that are out there
and so and what’s out there is this
simple story of the 20% that maybe can
do the 80% then that’s what I try to put
in the book I tell that personal story
the science story but then I also try to
reach out other people were reading it
and lift them up you don’t have to get
there through anxiety depression it’s
after all you need to do is show up as a
human being and these processes are
relevant to you and to the people you
love and that’s what’s in the book yeah
I mean I I love that there’s so much
that you went through in that little
introduction that was supposed to be
brief but I mean I I loved your story
and I loved how much how committed you
are to this research and it really does
seem like you are you know devoted to
helping other people with their
struggles in it it kind of began with
your your own you know your own
challenge with this I mean a your own
personal challenge with this and and it
started but with your own anxiety attack
would you
or yeah I think the real gut-check was
when I started having panic attacks my
first one was in a department meeting
watching full professors fight as I say
in a way that only wild animals and full
professors are capable of but it touched
something I didn’t know it was touching
but it you know I I raised my hand to
just ask them to stop and by the time
they turned to me three or four minutes
of fighting later I literally couldn’t
make sound come out of mouth I said
they’re like a you know like a goldfish
going bad you know
you know I’m an untenured assistant
professor sitting in this room and just
humiliated so my first panic attack was
you know terrifying to me and
humiliating and and I did if you
actually know people have had panic
histories when you visit it and you
realize how far anxiety can take you
down in terms of your ability even to do
the simplest thing functionally like
make a sound come out of your mouth you
know the natural human thing to do just
to watch out for it scan for it
fight it hide it try to minimize it all
of which just feed it and then you it’s
just like you had a baby tiger and
you’re feeding it chunks of meat and
you’re waiting for it to go away and it
gets bigger and bigger and bigger and
eventually it wants to eat you and
that’s what happened to me over a
three-year period I got down to the
point where I couldn’t get in front of
five undergraduates and give a lecture I
mean I’d have to show them films if
somebody called me and asked me to give
a talk my graduate students gave that
talk and I’d tell a story about what a
wonderful mentor I am then promoting
their career and yeah that’s the ticket
but it turns out you can’t run fast
enough to run away from your own history
yeah thankfully I didn’t find a way out
but it would find a way in and it’s an
ancient way I mean it’s in all her
wisdom traditions or spiritual
traditions but what Western science can
do not have to disrespect but it can
pull it at its joints and do things that
you can do in minutes that can put on
the factory floor things that maybe are
a bit of what’s inside even what you
know monks and meditators and folks have
been doing for thousands of years now
that it’s a substitute for it I’m not
saying that I’m just saying we need to
be there for people in many different
ways and maybe Western science is an
important way to mmm-hmm I mean there’s
there’s many places that I could start
here but let’s start with something that
you mentioned you you mentioned act and
that that stands for acceptance and
commitment therapy so I mean this is and
and then also our of T which is a
relational frame theory so what is what
is difference I mean first it was rft
that you coined first and then act and
what it was a difference in where those
mean please well our F T is the basic
science of cognition act which also
means acceptance and commitment training
so because you can do it with sports and
business and things like that and you
can put it inside the healthcare system
with the word therapy but really what
we’re dealing with is just how the mind
works and that’s relevant everywhere
it’s relevant right now between you and
I it’s relevant to the people listening
to this so you don’t have to have the t
Werribee therapy it’s also training but
act as a set of methods that use
acceptance and mindfulness processes and
commitment and change processes together
to produce what we call psychological
flexibility but underneath it in that 15
16 year gap where we did the early
studies and then we went silent as far
as outcomes
mm-hm because I didn’t think I should
just kind of rush out the door and say
hey you know some of the stuff monks
have been doing for thousands of years
is probably a good idea I wanted to pull
it at its joints and put it out into the
world in a different way and part of
what I wanted to do is understand why is
the mind like that sure why does it work
like that sure and we’ve tried I’m out
of the behavioral tradition I’m kind of
a probably some ears will close when I
say this but I’m kind of a Neos canarian
and I really respected what he did BF
Skinner if you know but from rats to
Walden to is what I respected you know
this kind of visionary
can we get tight principles that would
take you all the way up to being able to
organize communes okay do an old hippie
and you know Walden 2 was so exciting
utopian novel he wrote but he didn’t
figure out language and cognition and
within the behavioral wing we’ve tried
for 300 years to make Association work
and if you understand what that is like
it into the II think of it like chalk on
one hand you put it on your other hand
and knowledge chalks on the other hand
Association has to do a time and place
bringing things together or they’re
similar in form they’ve the same color
of the same shape the same smells
something is similar physically that’s
it ok you can’t build a model of mine
that way and we’ve tried and tried and
tried and what I instead I could
proposed and I might even use the word
discover so if there’s anything you’ll
get me to say that self aggrandizing is
probably that sentence is that no the
mind is organized why your family has
organized hmm it’s organized by
relationships mm-hmm what difference
does that make
well here’s the difference if I imagine
let’s say your right hand is a toxic
thought or a memory or an emotion I
could imagine that you know if I could
just cordon it off and it wouldn’t rub
off on my left hand which might be my
work my relationships you know my
sexuality my peace of mind
I could imagine I could manage that well
but what if it’s like this imagine a
picture of a big family and they’re all
related but you don’t know who this new
person walking in the door is related to
okay okay and I tell you that’s Suzy’s
second cousin on the mother on her
mother’s side you now know the
relationship between everybody okay and
that person okay and if you do the math
on it you have things like you start
getting pages of zeros as to how many
possible relationships come with the
tiniest little input if you think of
your mind more like you’d think of a
picture of your family and you’re gonna
clean that mess up really you know if
you come in let’s say with oh don’t
that think this you now have created
hundreds of thousands of new
relationships and you can’t manage that
you take anything that anything it’s
important to you and let’s just take
this one one that you like a bit you can
find things about that that you don’t
like sure yeah of course
so you’re of two lines and about
everything and it’s vast and it’s moving
and it’s even happening in your dreams I
mean even when you’re not thinking about
it these things are moving around or
like you know it’s active families of
spiders all weaving their web so what we
brought to the vision is a we can use
that to increase intelligence to work
with kids who don’t have a sense of self
to do really wonderful things when you
understand how the mind works but the
other thing is instead of trying to
clean it up which in the behavioral and
cognitive behavioral tradition that’s
what we’ve tried to do you know detect
the irrational thought dispute it
challenge it change it instead we better
learn the tools to put your mind on a
leash to notice your thoughts without
getting entangled with them do not have
them dominate and dictate to you so that
you have some flexibility as to which
kind thoughts are worth your next life’s
moments attention mm-hmm behavior and
that turns out is vastly safer and more
effective than detecting challenging
disputing and changing that gets you to
focus on things that are already hard
you know goofy thoughts you have scary
memories you have etc I’m not saying
don’t think about it I’m saying think
about it learn from it and then attend
to what’s of importance and that formula
is a powerful one and it turns out
deliberates people and every domain in
which they apply it so okay let me let
me try to unpack this I mean that was
quite a lot so I mean your brain is at
any given moment creating these
relationships at all times two things
both good and bad that are happening
within your cognition within your active
mind at all times like so it’s so
whether you think something bad or good
it’s it’s kind of copying itself
and you’re moving through this sort of
process that is is always creating this
these relationships am i close to this
right now so yeah so the better way to
kind of get using your analogy a leash
around how we’re going to control this
is not to affect the thoughts themselves
but affect our relationship to how we’re
gonna let that thought determine the
next thing that we do or how it’s going
to affect the next thing that we choose
to think about yes
although little asterisk once that is
possible then it is safe I mean you can
push into creative new thoughts it’s
such a we want new thoughts it’s not
like the form of a thought doesn’t
matter but it’s it’s almost like for
example if somebody’s afraid of a
territory let’s take take me as an
example when I’m struggling with panic
you know I was doing relaxation tapes of
course what I do I was doing cognitive
therapy of course that’s the way I was
trained well yeah but there’s this
phenomenon called relaxation induced
panic and here’s here’s the way it works
from the inside out oh I’m doing a lot
better yeah yeah that tape must have
really worked
I’m feeling really calm I was nervous
last week in the same situation but now
what was that is that a little did my
heart just good yeah now I’m feeling a
look Oh God
but now I’m with how far away is the
door boom right you know so I actually
got to the point literally I was
understand I’m a clinical psychologist
I’m trying to do therapy where if
somebody said the word we had axed I
would get anxious and then if they said
the word in motion that would remind me
of the different kinds of emotion and
then I’d get anxious and then if they’d
started talking about their body I’d get
anxious and they know eventually all
roads lead to Rome you know we can do it
right here right now you want to play
just do it a little oh my god okay yeah
put me on the spot me let’s go for it
okay okay so let’s just take a common
phrase mary had a little lamb yeah sure
okay so I’m gonna say it again but this
savor it’s really important that you
come up with something that doesn’t have
anything to do with lamb at all this
isn’t related to it in any possible way
okay okay and everybody listening give
it a shot okay we have a little podcast
awesome okay now here’s the problem I’m
gonna say some words hot cold right sure
sure
black yeah we’re going to the opposite
white right podcast just sitting at home
a little yeah yeah it’s a lamp yeah it’s
interesting yeah I like that what we
only did it once I should have done it
twice that cemented and I’m guarantee as
some of your listeners got to lamb and
you know you look at OCD or things like
that you know when you try to suppress
and push out you’ve created a new
relationship now it’s a relationship of
is nada or is different from or is
opposite – mm-hmm but it’s still a
relation and it’ll remind you so that’s
the difference between association and
relation and it gives us an appreciation
of how to program the mind we’ve done
wonderful things with that inside the
research community that we built but
also men how hard this thing this is
this is like a fractal you know just
kind of drawing pictures on its own with
this little formulas being repeated
repeated repeated and it has a life of
its own you literally will see it in
your dreams you’ll see connections
emerge in your dreams and you didn’t do
that just you noticed it so it’s good
it’s wonderful it’s a lot of where our
creativity comes from but it’s
hellacious when you start applying logic
to a process that’s psycho logic mmm-hmm
wow it’s incredible um yeah it really
reflects in the stuff that you’ve
written about and it I mean it really is
resounding it I’m not sure you know how
much Western medicine or Western
peuta Commodus n’ western psychology is
really adapting you know this model that
you’ve created or you discovered but
there’s you know there’s one thing one
of the main things that you talk about
in your book which is something like
that you call pivoting you know so what
is the the process of pivoting and you
know like give us the example of that
and the definition of that sure well i
pivoting as this concept its recent
inside the act work but that inside our
struggles is a yearning there’s
something we deeply want we may not even
know what it is but you can do the
research to find out what it is and a
lot of that research has been done and
so part of the message is you know when
you’re doing the most screwed up thing
that you can think of it’s not because
you’re a bad person it’s not because
you’re broken it’s not because you’re
damaged is because you’re a human being
and you’re doing the logical reasonable
sensible pathological thing and and
you’re the problem isn’t what you want
isn’t what you yearn for deeply not
superficially on unpack that okay but
it’s the solution itself that’s the
problem and the metaphor of a pivot the
pivot is you know the pin and the hinge
is the French word for it is that you
actually are able to move in a positive
direction more readily if you have
movement in a negative direction you
know that from dancing if your partner’s
moving this way you can swing them
around that way if they’re standing dead
still you know it’s like get moving you
know because you know we can’t play
together unless you’re moving right well
your oving when you’re suffering right
you’re moving it’s just you have the
wrong solution for the right problem and
if we can take that energy and and note
it and see what it is and then learn
this counterintuitive kind of twisty
flexibility alternative that’s inside
the research and that I walk through in
a liberated mind you swing that energy
in a new direction and very quickly I’m
in minutes you know what I went through
my panic attack my bottom one where I
think I’m having a heart attack and it’s
2:00 and 3:00 in the morning and I’m
sitting there I’m should I call the
emergency room you know I have to call
you know I have that voice with an
saying you’ve got Drive in this
condition
make the call you’re dying and I had all
that you know the weight of my chest I’m
that other and somewhere in there I
realize I’m not having a heart attack
I’m having another panic attack and in
that horror that I couldn’t even trust
my own freaking body anymore Wow
you know I’m sitting there literally the
tears coming down that face you know I
caught that there was a voice telling me
to to run and fight and hide I think
it’s always we all have it’s that
critical I call it the dictator within
right the goal finger wagging you’re not
doing it right you’re not level you have
to earn your way in what’s the matter
with you
you’ll be okay if but you’re not there
yet because that voice and I said out
loud I don’t know who you are but
apparently you can make me hurt you can
make me suffer mm-hmm but I’ll tell you
one thing you cannot do you can’t make
me turn from my own experience you can’t
do it and I stood up inside a promise
that said never again
I’m not gonna run from me well the
reason I tell that story is there’s a
pivot and I’ll unpack it in terms of
quickly in terms of what it is it’s a
simple kind of on pivot okay but within
I mean really this sounds kind of weird
but I’d say within 60 seconds as I stand
up I know my life is different I just
know it’s different because I saw
something that was a hundred and eighty
degrees from what it’s been three years
chasing and so here’s what was the
yearning what was that trying to do well
I think one of the yearnings there was I
was trying to feel and I tell the story
in there of you I mentioned earlier you
know the domestic abuse in the home and
of course a kid would try to run away
from that
there’s nothing you can do with it you
can’t step in between your parents when
they’re hitting each other or
threatening to or when dad’s drunk or
and so I just hid under my bed and cried
but I’m not eight anymore I’m 28 or 38
or you know as different points in my
life where this has been relevant that
night on the carpet and in my thirties
and you know running and hiding under
the bed isn’t needed anymore but what is
the yearning I would say it was the
yearning to feel and what I’ve been
trying to do is feel only good stuff but
eventually that means you can’t feel at
all and you just sort of try to live
life with you let’s be like if you made
your fingertips numb so that you
wouldn’t feel the sandpaper mm-hmm then
you can’t feel the silk sheets you can’t
feel your lover’s face you know you you
lose so much right by that move right
and so if we take that yearning to feel
and instead doing what the mind says
which is I got a solution only feel the
good stuff feelings don’t come packaged
that way because right inside your love
for your child is the fear that maybe
something harmful would happen to them
you know right inside your love for your
parents is knowing that they’re gonna
die I mean if you walk through anything
that it brings joy to you you know now
where your vulnerability is where your
wound ability is that’s what that word
means in other words where you can be
hurt so if you don’t want to be hurt and
you got to be numb the happy numb is not
happy so what we do instead with that
pivot of acceptance that’s the one of
the six we take that energy that you’re
going to feel and you spin it around to
instead of doing what the mind says you
can only feel the good stuff how about
if we do this other form of feeling good
feeling good I’m not feeling good
feeling good means eventually don’t feel
at all we’ve actually seen this in the
research it’s pathetic
you start running from sadness you’re
sweating from anxiety you have to run
from joy do you know that people who run
from anxiety
cannot feel joy and sit inside it very
quickly it has to be detuned because
it’s a threat the bigger you are the
harder you fall maybe we’ll be betrayed
maybe they didn’t really mean it maybe
you’ll feel later yeah it’s a success
now but you know your mind tells you
that and so the concept of pivoting for
one thing is just to validate that we’re
doing our best but we’re trying to
manage this evolutionary mismatch with
our problem solving symbolic mind and
could be instead fine what the energy is
what the earning is and move towards a
way of satisfying that that’s real and
science there is helpful as heck because
you can just do the studies and there’s
some ways that trick you into a little
bit now and less later and as others
were a little harder now but a lot more
later let’s do the second one Wow
I mean there’s there’s so much to go
through and just that as you were
speaking you know there’s so much in
myself that I’m processing about the way
that I handle my own you know scenarios
of anxiety of panic and you know when I
feel nervous or you know and something
that I’ve been reading lately is I
wonder what you would think about this
is this method that sort of talks about
facing the fear you know like accepting
accepting it and moving into it moving
through it and really allowing yourself
to feel the entirety of it what do you
think about that I think that’s awesome
however we have some pretty good data on
this that in order to do that you need a
set of additional flexibility pivots why
because I’ll give you an example I bet
you some people and I bet you you’re not
once a Rabb I know you know this heard
what you just said to say okay if my
face might fear my fear will go away and
when my fear goes away then I’ll be able
to live a more flexible and useful in a
vital life
no that’s not what that means it means
if you because and it’s right in our
language we have to get through it we
have to get beyond it we have to get
over it no you don’t you have to get
with it
it’s in your history it’ll show up at
other times maybe or maybe not let’s
find out let’s let the future decide
that but meanwhile can we open up and
feel fully and without needless defense
and then have the skills when your mind
says oh I can’t you can thank your mind
for the help notice that the language
organ inside your head is doing its job
you probably don’t need that help from
them because it doesn’t know how to feel
and it just knows how to problem-solve
so thank you I’ve got this covered I’ll
do the feeling part you do the taxes
part and the fix the car part you know
if you do the you know deciding on the
investment part I’m gonna do the feeling
part the same way you know what are you
opening up to the world of emotion for
what’s the purpose of it and my guess is
is that your yearning for some sort of
self-directed meaning you sense that in
those emotions you have is a history
that might really be useful to you and
knowing how to Nagant navigate your
relationships your challenges your job
and enrich it and kind of ground it well
then we better get that in what is this
what is this in the service of if you
don’t do that the mind will say I know
what’s in the service of getting rid of
fear well now you’ve got two messages
let’s get with the fear in order to not
get with a fear no it’s yours with
yourself right so what’s in the book is
yeah we walk through and I resonate to
the one you raise very much we walk
through it but because we’ve done the
science geeky stuff as to how they all
fit together we have a pretty complete
set I mean there’s other things you can
add for sure but this set works and
we’ve done the studies to show if you
pull out any of the elements of the set
it doesn’t work as well it’s like six
sides of a box if you started just
taking sides of the box away by the time
you got one or two
out of the box you barely have a box
anymore and it’s all floppy and soggy
like so could we gradually assemble what
we need to be able to do what you said
in a healthy way and the book would walk
through that if you’re into what you
just said it’s awesome the book the
written mind will help you in that
because I don’t care about whether you
call it Act or not I mean that’s not the
point
it’ll all be forgotten but can’t we put
processes in people’s lives that matter
put it in the culture in a way that your
children’s children will have it even if
they don’t know you had anything to do
with it that would be cool okay okay so
dr. Hayes let me let me pause you a
little bit let’s let’s let’s change
gears a little bit I want to talk about
you know something that you mentioned
and I mean I want to talk about the
previous understandings of like
psychology through Freud’s work and
Jung’s work yeah and you know Maslow
like what were those people doing right
and what were those people doing wrong
well the ones you mentioned we’re what
they were doing right is they would not
accept minimization they would not say
oh it’s only you know only one I don’t
want to hear the rest of the sentence if
you want to talk to me about human
complexity and say it’s only stop at
those words because I know what’s coming
is is reductionistic and minimizing and
you know my hero my original hero in
psychology as high school student when I
decided I was going to be a psychologist
with Maslow and what I loved about him
was the peak experiences is the idea
that psychology could be about something
more than like you know solving mental
health problems it could be about
oriented towards a life worth living and
you know but but or an Maslow said yeah
but to do that we can’t just use the
normal methods of Western experimental
science I think that was a mistake I
know I he said it I even agree with him
for the era but we didn’t have a good
way of thinking about and studying the
mind at the time so what people were
doing is treating everything simply as
over
behavior like non-human animals period
end of story
and that’s actually my tradition as a
Neos canarian that and that was wrong
that was just wrong and so his pushback
on Western science methods of a
traditional sort and wanted to go more
into qualitative methods and things like
that I don’t think was enough of a good
science filter for knowing what works
and what doesn’t
Freud the same way and you know Freud
made the decision early on if so much
what he wrote about was just awesome I
mean it’s really cool and it and it has
held up some of it some of it but but he
made the decision early on we’re gonna
vet my methods by the clinical case
study method you know so you know little
Hans said to his mum would you touch my
wiggler and that meant that he had a
secret no you know and and the glasses
he was afraid of reminded him or that
was on the horse the blinders on the
horse reminded him of the glasses of his
father because his father would have
gone after his you know what if he knew
he was interested in having mom touches
would learn you know oh please
it could be right but you’re not gonna
get so the concern I had with those is
that they’re just they don’t give you
tight processes they Orientis human
experiences that require analysis and
they’re they’re cool sometimes and
they’re misdirect sometimes so you can’t
get to the 20% that does the 80% you end
up with lots of things that turn out to
be not that important and so they’ve had
a hard time standing up to the modern
era of show me with data almost too much
I mean I really kind of weep for what’s
happened is or humanistic traditions
that I feel so attached to and
appreciative of because they were
helpful to me when I needed it but what
I so we’ll have tried to do not just me
you’ll know from the book that I’m
telling a science story that’s about a
whole community and I’ve spent a lot of
years trying to empower other people to
step forward and to try to kind of lead
from behind and that community has dug
down and
some of these issues of human complexity
in a way that if you get a freudian or
you know somebody out of the Maslow
tradition to come and do some act
training they leave smiling because they
feel as though yeah this is the real
deal this is human complexity these
folks are really trying hard to do it
without any this is just or that’s only
sentences and so I I think Western
science at its best can simplify without
reducing and minimizing and that’s the
game I want to play hmm yeah it’s I mean
it’s really fascinating to hear your
perspective about you know what’s what
history is said and you know how that’s
transformed now to where we are now you
know so for someone who’s struggling
with with something like this like what
what would you give them as an example
to do like what would be what would be
something that you would do to give
someone you know a practical way to move
through or out of you know an anxious
place well let me give an example of one
of the other pivots which is that we
come in I think just even before human
language wanting to understand but once
you get language going by the time
you’re 3 you know that do you know the
data this with children on the
schoolyard preschool and kindergarten
errs what do they fight about the most
and you might think of beagle who gets
the favorite toy no no it’s who’s right
you know who is Jonah Doug I mean and if
you don’t know what I’m talking about
just go to your staff room and listen or
go to you know we’re still doing it we
just grew up but that DOM and that’s
once language gets going and it’s so
important we need to teach ourselves to
think consistently you kind of know if
you do a multiple-choice test and you
don’t know anything about the area good
test takers can get above chance levels
on anything because they can see if I
answer it this way the
next question has to be answered that
way and you can kind of you know look
for the coherence this is make sense hmm
yeah well here’s the thing if it’s like
a big spider web you’re not gonna get
coherence that way so could I take I
wrote over a little bit that nice there
is no it’s okay please keep going
well if you take something like somebody
who’s suffering with anxiety and they
have a thought like I’ll never be able
to function normally hmm you know and
their heart sinks and it fits so much of
the data look I’ve struggled for years
and it simplifies things it’s coherent
as soon as you do that your cognitive
world starts changing do you know you
start filtering out even what your
sensory system gives you so wait a
minute so what exactly are you doing in
that moment you’re buying into a
particular thought that organizes
thousands and thousands of bits of data
into a coherent set in it so now you’ve
got a confirmatory bias it’s going to be
easier to see data that suggests that
you’re never gonna be able to okay
you’re gonna be buying into that story
and you want to be right after all
you’re smart you should know your own
life and you start actually defending it
so know what cognitive bias that proves
exactly what you’re thinking yes like a
mindset or concept of iesson that and
and then once that happens it becomes
almost self-perpetuating as a life of
its own becomes like a little core
schema and it’s sort of sucking things
like a black hole of other thoughts get
pulled in and okay so what we’re gonna
do instead is we’re gonna do diffusion
and what that is is taking the yearning
for coherence finding a way to take that
language monster that metaphorically is
like the words you know I’ll never be
able to live a life worthwhile
if you wrote it on your hand and put it
right in front of your eyes so that
that’s all you could see
metaphorically that’s the situation
we’re in and what we’ll do is use
methods that will take your hand and
kind of push it out two feet out in
front of you it doesn’t go away it’s
still there it’s in your history mary
had a little podcast right and there it
is sure sure but so right yeah so it
gives me a different perspective on yeah
well change your relationship to it so
let me give you a practical example I
know it sounds goofy but just try it
sure if somebody’s struggling with a
thought like that distill it down to a
short sentence think it again on purpose
notice how it punches you normally and
then let’s do this deliberately to the
tune of happy birthday oh no sing it
just sing it just trust me on this okay
mentally okay unless you’re a good
singer not there but okay yeah I
understand what you’re saying the end of
that song this hand that’s right in
front of your face will be at least
several inches out hmm okay and no you
can’t walk around singing off your goofy
thoughts but one of 300 methods that
have been written about and many of them
studied word repetition distill it down
to a single word say that word over and
over again for at least 30 seconds at
about rate of one per second that fast
in 30 seconds that thought will have
significantly left less believability
and it’ll produce less distress takes
you 30 seconds to try it yeah and be
careful on or here’s another one um say
the thought in a funny voice mm-hmm you
know I’ll never be able to live maybe
Donald Duck could say oh man that’s
awesome
well and when I do this with clients
than Monday even I talked about this in
one of my TEDx talks I finished with
picture how young you were when you
suffered with thoughts like that
really take the time to picture what you
look like from those school pictures etc
mentally put that little kid in front of
you take this scary thought you have
that you’re really being punched hard by
whatever it is and listen as that child
says that in his or her little voice as
young as you can go when you still had
thoughts kinda like that and listen and
then look at what does that pull from
you and my guess is it doesn’t pull
wanting to slap the kid or tell him to
shut up I mean things you would do to
the person in the mirror and an instant
you would never do and so do you deserve
less you know bring so this these things
are not ridicule methods these diffusion
methods they’re pry the monster off your
face put the dictator within on a leash
so that we can have this wonderful
symbolic tool without letting it have us
I love it love it love it I mean it’s
it’s such a great just simple way to
reframe what’s going on in your brain
and I think it creates enough and of an
interrupt like a pattern interrupt that
it will you know change your thinking or
at least the way your brain is
processing all of all of that sort of
neurological yeah you know chaos in your
mind there’s a really cool
neurobiological studies coming on this
like for example there’s one with
chronic pain where you can look at the
kind of how sensory motor information
comes up into the brain and this kind of
these heavy cognitive structures about
how much pain I’m in that’s never going
to go away I’m not going to be able to
live my life again I’m never going to be
a you know whole again you know my life
is ruined but all that kind of stuff or
this kind of conceptualized self you
know I’m only half of who I used to be
and you can show that pain actually you
know projects out into parts of the
brain that
involved in sense of self judgment
predicting the future you have this very
active default mode network you’re
looking you’re scanning you start doing
an act stuff and it looks a little bit
like very quickly like what you see in
contemporary practice with the early
data on psychedelics you know the
careful data the more recent ones not
though woohoo sure a sixties a version
okay and and what happens is these
needless connectivities start settling
down and people start feeling pain even
experimental pain there’s a study like
this with chronic pain patients who then
they have thumb screws put on them and
the pain goes up but it doesn’t produce
this thing in your brain it kind of just
you have access to it you notice it but
it doesn’t overwhelm you know the or
your capacity to orient your attention
towards what else is present and to the
whole of your experience I mean even the
thumbscrew is only one part of your
experience there’s other things
happening around you so I think we’re on
the verge of really walking this thing
out nor biologically not just
psychologically I love it I love
everything you’re saying dr. Hayes you
mentioned something that perked my
attention it got my attention which was
you know using psychedelics in a
controlled setting we’ve had dr. Denis
McKenna on we’ve had Rodolfo on the show
so you know I I really want to know what
your perspective is on this and using
tools medicines like you asked for
you know PTSD when would you recommend a
person or a patient go into you know
that realm of addressing a problem and
you know would you recommend it for
everyone or is it for just some people
how do you address that you know I think
a science a careful cautious scientist
and I hope I can put that on a Don would
look at their early trials and say hey
these are exciting be they’re not yet
fully determinative see we need more
research and D please let’s let
revisit the seventies and sixties we did
that you know I mean some of my best
friends didn’t make it out alive yeah
you know I just don’t want to do that
again because unguided it’s just not and
it’s not in any of our indigenous
cultures unguided none of them do it
that way
so that’s not Western folks just think
whoohoo you know that there’s magic and
the chemicals and it will speak to me no
that’s not really how the brain works
it’s not how psychology works and so act
is being adopted by a number of the big
centers NYU’s some other ones as part of
their randomized trials because they’ve
made the determination
I think wisely almost universally that
it’s not wise to study these chemicals
in this new era just by here’s the
chemical put on the behind hold period
you know know you need some sort of
preparation guidance etc you don’t have
to dominate you know you can let the
person go where they go but you have to
have a guide a roadmap for that that is
a kind of a psychological and scientific
roadmap and act really helps you with
that because these six flexibility
processes if I can spin around and name
them sure of this kind of witnessing and
observing sense of self instead of the
storied ego based evaluated sense of
self that then allows you to notice your
thoughts in flight without having them
write up on your face dictating to you
you don’t even notice that you’re
thinking to open up to your feelings
your memories your bodily sensations in
a in a flexible way in an open way
that’s not needlessly squeezing down
limiting information that your history
and the current situation is giving you
and then to come into the present moment
in a way that’s flexible fluid and
voluntary in terms of what you attend to
we’re always in the now what parts of
the now should we be attending to should
be broaden our view a narrower view
shifter view or stayed focused and let’s
let go of that tendency with a mind to
say you can only be in the now and you
can ruminate enough that you can predict
what’s going to happen and worried
enough that you can avoid some bad
future
let’s show up here on the now and then
connect
what brings meaning and purpose to us by
choice not wagging fingers of shame and
blame or mama wanted me to do do it or
otherwise I’d feel guilty or know that
none of those things predict progress in
life but I mean the kind where it’s a
leap of faith that I hold this dear and
this is the kind of qualities I want to
put into my behavior and then good
old-fashioned behavior therapy build
habits of values based action take what
we know about how to build behavior
change in small increments sometimes in
large leaps some things like changing a
job getting married is a large leap
thing but you can well you know step up
to that by learning how to develop
competence in the way that you knew
perfectly well how to do before a
language getting a got involved when you
as an infinite for example spent hours
and hours and hours and hours just
trying to open a box or to reach a toy
or stand up on your two legs and now
with the mind going you want to suddenly
spring forth and the head of Zeus and
know things without any trial and error
well competency doesn’t come that way
and so those are the six processes and
if you can kind of bring them in you
know life starts opening up and going
back into this psychedelic piece I think
if we can use that as a guide then we
can look for and we see it in the
literature and early literature on
psychedelics that when you help people
in that way about things that they might
view of important as importance trips
make a little more sense because people
do find experiences of oneness in
oceanic awareness this sort of sense of
self that connects us in consciousness
to others they notice they’re thinking
they’re more open to their emotions that
are flexible in their attention and
values sometimes lifelong values are
coming out where people realize that
they do care about the environment are
living things or relationships in love
or you know taking care of people who
are suffering or whatever it is and the
willingness to persist and to walk
through what you need to do to build
habits that are organized around that so
I you know I’m not here to sing the song
of psychedelic therapy but I’m really
kind of pleased that some of the early
trials that have going in that direction
are using the flexibility skills that I
walked through and liberated mine
deliberately and they’re at least saying
that they find that the model really
fits well to what the data show are the
transformational qualities of those
experiences when they do work well I
mean well I mean there’s there’s
certainly something to Speas ed about
Western psychology and it’s felt Western
medicine and its failure to really cure
its patients I mean I’ve talked to
people who have been on you know a
litany of different medications for
anxiety and other problems and and you
know like I don’t you know they end up
you know buying a ticket to go over the
jungle for you know seven thousand
dollars because they’re just you know
they’ve tried everything and nothing
works and they end up going and seeing
the shaman and it it really does you
know help them it’s it’s amazing that
organizations like maps and people like
Dennis McKenna are you know studying
this and putting out the research that
we need to to make it you know a legal
thing that we can do aided by a doctor
that’s trained in it instead of you know
in your kitchen or in your living room
by yourself which they’re not advising
whatsoever
yeah well a lot of what we’re doing with
the biomedical ization of human
suffering and human pain of selling this
vision that really if you suffer it’s a
disease if you’re in pain it’s a disease
if you’re sad it’s a disease if you’re
actually it’s it’s it’s bull it’s not
true there’s not a single not one
syndromes collections of signs and
symptoms that has turned into a disease
the last one was general paresis which
is untreated syphilis and and and good
academic psychiatrists will absolutely
say yes to what the sentence I just said
and you can look at the dsm-5 work group
document could for at all what walks
through it and says that in so many
words what I just said
and so and and people like Alan Francis
the dsm-4 guy who’s an endorser uber of
a liberated mind and you know good
academics are conscious well because
what we’re gonna do instead I think what
we need to do is yes take Western
science but walk into the processes of
change that liberate human lives or on
the negative side that walk
lives into restricted and a pathological
space and when you do that you don’t
need the labels and the cubbyholes and
the five of the nines and you know I I
worry a little bit about you know kind
of some of the hype around some of the
early psychedelic ones and you know if
you look at you know people like Baba
Ram Dass and so forth you know they’ll
late news so the dick Alpert people from
that era who are saying you know they’ve
walked down this kind of contemplative
practice road well that’s cool but
that’s not the only way to get to some
of these processes and you know the
person on the factory floor is probably
not doing a 10-day silent retreat this
has not happening I mean even in the
Eastern cultures where that happened
people were giving alms to the mumps to
do it the normal folks weren’t doing it
they were working well can we take when
out of respect not out of disrespect I’m
not saying it’s the same thing or it’s
substitutes but can we take something
that we know scientifically is kind of a
safe guide to being able to create a
more open and flexible way of being that
walks your life forward in all these
different areas and what’s exciting
about the the a quirk and psychological
flexibility work is that if you learn
the skills let’s say with anxiety if you
learn them with depression if you learn
from a substance abuse you’re gonna find
it’s relevant to losing weight or it’s
relevant to keep into your exercise
program what’s relevant when you have a
diagnosis of cancer what’s relevant when
you’re running your business or when
you’re trying to engage in high
performance at competitive sports and
you know in the book I walk through this
I mean I literally have watched people
win gold medals
that coaches at the Olympics and so we
have it’s not that one-size-fits-all
because the techniques are different and
every person is different but the human
mind is not that complicated in the
sense of what we need to do to at least
get it bumped in the right direction
once you understand how it works and so
I want to bring something into the
culture that’s why I wrote this book
it’s the first one that you
comprehensive act book you can kind of
give to people without feeling as though
you’re either tell them they need a
shrink or should be one where you just
walk through and say holy beans you know
everywhere I all these areas that are of
importance to me the science of sand
there’s some cool things I can do and in
the book I try to walk through some
learning exercises so people don’t feel
as though it’s just that here’s the
theory blah blah there’s the data sure
no you try it try it
here’s an exercise here’s another
exercise there’s no chance and on the
websites that support it and so forth if
it’s okay I mention mine later but no
you can get those tools and supports and
stuff and then all those other self-help
books I mean there’s 150 Act books and
several million copies floating around
the world you know you can dial into it
once you get what the game is and that I
don’t want to say that that substitutes
for what we’re trying to do with some of
these more innovative things including
what we’re doing now finally I think
properly but taking a serious look at
psychedelics but I would say hold your
horses be cautious you know don’t drink
the kool-aid too quickly you know let’s
let’s let the science move along and if
you do do it at least look at well some
of it you’ll find some of the folks who
are doing that kind of thing or
themselves adopting act as a method for
their studies and they must be doing it
for some kind of reason maybe you should
read about it and see if it’s relevant
to what you really want to have happen
by that trip to the jungle and that
might be useful to you I can’t say
there’s a piece of research on that but
I can
that the underlying processes have
changed and even what your neurobiology
does I’m writing a paper on this right
now on psychedelics and what did have
they work and how they relate to what we
know about how psychological flexibility
works really echoes it looks really
resonant it looks like yeah there’s
something in here that’s worth chasing
so dr. Hayes I’ve got a couple different
directions left to take this
conversation but since we’re talking
about act right now there’s a question
from Kate and she asks well she says I’m
loving the conversation how do you see
act growing in the next decade or how do
you hope to see it expand well I’m
really actively trying to do some things
there I’m really excited about where
it’s going one is that we’re you know
we’ve never been about just act act as
even our main scientific society that
has about 8,500 members and 27 chapters
around the world it’s called the
Association for contextual behavioral
science it isn’t the Association for act
you know act can come and go the names
come and go everything dies everything
passes away you know I wear a little
bracelet this is in Hebrew this too
shall pass you know and can we dig down
to the processes so that’s one thing
that I try to do in this book but what
has that what is that allowed
well now at our conferences we’ve got
the compassion focus therapy people
we’ve got the mindfulness based
cognitive therapy people we’ve got the
metacognitive therapists in a
dialectical behavior therapists and the
behavior analysts and all these you know
this the social workers and the
biologists and the other thing I’m
trying to put it inside an evolutionary
frame because I really think here’s
what’s going on I mean if you look at
all of the life sciences all of them
except one if you take any phenomena and
you say why is that like that and then
whatever answer the expert gives you you
say well why is that like that and then
whatever answer they give you you say
well why is that like that by on average
three questions out they’re going to say
the e word they’re gonna say it evolved
and they’re gonna talk about why it
evolved except one the behavioral
sciences
you can ask that question for now till
next Tuesday nobody ever said that you
were and I get that evolution sounds
like the jeans made me do it
it sounds reductionistic and well that’s
just only but modern evolutionary
thinking is looking at how variation
selection retention in context at the
right dimension level moves systems
forward businesses of all cultures
evolve people evolve I mean there’s
studies it’s so exciting that like a
learning process like classical
conditioning you know here’s a smell
there’s a shock here’s a smell there’s a
shock let’s say in a mouse model right
the pups of the pups of the mom that was
exposed to that with really good
controls startle to the smell yeah so
Lamarque is back you know there are
things going on and I mean literally
whether or not you know how you relate
to things might be based on the fact
that your grandmother went through the
Holocaust or that you know your mother
was part of the Dutch winter cohort and
at the end of the Second World War or
your grandmother and almost starved to
death and so what I’m trying to do is to
take processes and then link them to a
larger knowledge development journey
that has been powerful in every area
from economics I mentioned Lynn Ostrom
we’ve she won the Nobel Prize in
Economics 2009 and she David Sloan
Wilson a major evolutionary biologist
myself and a psychologist in Australia
named Paul Atkins have created this
method called pro-social where we
combine act with what Lynn won the Nobel
for which is showing that indigenous
peoples can protect their forests their
lakes the rivers their streams if you’re
hearing the climate crisis you should
can do that without any government
regulation and without private ownership
without an invisible hand and without
command and control but only if they
organize their groups in a way that
promote human cooperation so where are
we going
I and it’s in the last chapter
the book I want to put these flexibility
processes now scaled into the social
processes and downwards to the
biological processes that lift up human
beings connect them to others and that
empower us to step into the challenges
of the modern world instead of shrinking
and running away and fighting and hiding
and you know you can’t turn on your
television or so you can’t look at your
cell phone without feeling like there’s
something really wrong in the world you
know and you know I think these
psychological journeys people are
interested in can be scaled into a
social and cultural journey if we focus
on processes and don’t be so prideful
about the names of methods and
trademarking things and tithing to
founders and all this nonsense that is a
grasp a tent or tality instead let’s put
processes of change and into the world
and it you know from reading the book
Xavier I really try to simplify it and
put it out there in so many areas that
you can come away and say by golly these
processes are important and maybe I
should work on them and maybe I should
that’s what my kids are doing and maybe
I should think about my church group and
maybe I should look at my business and
how am I actually fostering the values
based group inside my business or
whatever it is that you’re doing and so
that’s the two things of joining and
community with all the process oriented
kind of New Wave therapies out there and
then leveraging that over into not just
psychotherapy don’t put it in a little
cul-de-sac like that but into human
transformation behavior change growth
that we can scale even to the social
problems that we either face or we’re
not going to have a world worth living
in yeah yeah I agree with so much of
everything you’ve said and you know like
I said in the pre-interview and the
conversation that we had briefly before
the show started I loved the book I
ripped through it I mean it’s I mean it
usually if I am struggling with moving
through a book it’s because it’s it’s a
difficult read and I didn’t find that to
be the case
whatsoever with this book and and like I
said it’s you know it’s it’s like 300
pages so you know just getting the book
and holding it I was just huh but you
know I couldn’t put it down and I
grabbed a pen and I was just underlying
and you know that’s a testament to how
much work there’s such an immense work
that you put into this research putting
it together into this book it you know
and and offering it to people in a
useable practical way that can affect
you know their lives in in a measurable
sense so you know I think people want
science but they don’t want to be talked
down to they don’t want to be lectured
to they don’t want to have that finger
wagging you know you I would remind
people you know that psychologists their
divorce rates you’re just about as bad
as anybody else out there their suicide
rates are actually a little higher you
know be careful about all those experts
and so forth and well the one reason I
wanted to write a really evidence-based
book but I think you’d agree it doesn’t
land that way it doesn’t really it is
Evans’s though it’s based that’s that
scientific heft to it
but I hope it doesn’t ever feel like and
here’s another study where 124 people
randomized that fall you know like yeah
yeah you know I’ll let my textbooks do
that I’ve written some books that are a
cure for insomnia I mean even I can’t
read them even though they’re elegantly
written but it’s so arcane you know
you’re just painful almost to read the
sentences and I I think sometimes we
have a responsibility as the science
folks to step forward in a way that to
be frank could I just say something it
sounds a little critical of other human
beings I understand the heart of it but
there’s a whole lot of people out there
saying things that they’ve learned by
their personal experience and all of
that and there’s basically no science
behind it and the problem with it is
just too many voices and how do you pick
them right how do you know yeah next
thing you know the voices were listening
to other commercial voices and the other
ones are trying to sell stuff yeah you
know if I can sell that you’ve got a
latent disease man you got to be on
medications
you got to be listen you look at the
long
current follow-ups and a side-effects
and you’re saying wait a minute I didn’t
used to hear the commercial frienda
depressants with a warning that it could
increase suicidality I didn’t remember
that no because as the data has rolled
along you know we find things out and so
I’m not saying there’s not a role for
antidepressants sometimes so-called
that’s a marketing term but those you
know it properly done at a particular
time but be careful because people who
are talking just about their own
experience don’t know how to simplify
necessarily and the people who are
talking out of science that’s
contaminated by commercialism sometimes
there’s other agendas and so can we put
something in there that’s evidence-based
and we’re consumers themselves you can
make the decision and here’s what I tell
folks at the beginning of the book I say
here’s what you want
does this help is a good evidence that
it helps second do you know why it works
and if the answer is no to either one of
those this is not a method for you and
this book I hope you’d agree really
walks through that we know something
about how to create transformational
change and it’s not the only thing
that’s going on but man’s psychological
flexibility is a pretty powerful set the
20% that does 80% so I hope I’m doing
this in a way that is scientifically
responsible in one hand at the same time
as a good read and really empowers
people so I think so and I mean there’s
many people in the chat that we have
that have mentioned about you know
because of this conversation they’re
going to go and buy the book and I
highly recommend that you go and do that
dr. Hayes I have one more question it’s
kind of bugging me if I don’t ask you
then I’m gonna think later you know why
didn’t I ask him and then you’ll
probably end up getting an email for me
like six months from now like dr. Hayes
I didn’t ask you this so you know I’m
wondering about a little bit of a
paradox that you know we’re in as far as
the larger picture the macrocosm of
humanity and our connection to
technology I mean you yourself and your
book you talk about how we are
social beings and you know what and you
know there’s this comparison belonging
aspect to how we relate to other people
so you know with social media and
technology and things like Facebook and
Twitter and when human beings are yes
social animals were social creatures and
you know to quote you even you say that
just having a word for something is is a
social act right so so if you know if
it’s the cooperative nature that that
drives us then and that can be useful
then you know like when I’m looking
through my Instagram for example just
not off tonight but it happens but you
know and and I see let’s say you know
someone that I’m comparing myself to
yeah like let’s see let’s say that I see
another podcaster and they’re you know
they have millions of followers and and
I have this thought process that happens
in my mind that is creating this
comparison between me and this other
persons I have no idea of like I don’t
know this person in real life whatsoever
so yeah I think that this happens often
and with other people in normal
situations where you know they’re just
on their Instagram I mean maybe they’re
younger maybe they’re in school and you
know they’re just flipping through
social media and they experience this
where it becomes this internalized
judgement or their self-reflection that
is highly negative like what do you say
about this what do you think about this
boy you’re just right on and one of the
things I’d say is if we don’t understand
the processes we’re moving around by
this technology then we don’t know how
to put in our children’s lives or in the
lies or in the things that we’ve created
like you know our school system or you
know kind of our learning we don’t know
how to put things there you know yet and
some of the folks that we need to reach
or people yeah the podcasters yeah the
the Nam
Reiter’s the the cartoon makers the
songwriters the you know we have many
allies here and you know there are
spiritual religious traditions that know
a lot and so if we can take the science
to focus on what needs to happen and put
it out there you know if you google my
son that as favorite cartoon is called
the Stephens universe and Google that
here comes a thought and it’s this
wonderful song that has been viewed on
YouTube or whatever by the different
versions something like 2025 million
times and and it was a powerful land
well in the wiki site they even say this
was based on that concepts and actually
in they tell me actually that might even
be so that Steven wore a bald wig on
bald you can’t see it but I am in the so
you know somebody forgetting her name
and sugar or something something that
songwriter
saw something and put it into kids lives
so we have allies here we can work
together perhaps and I you know I see
that in the attempts to put things in
our movies for children and things like
that so the the media you know that
little computer in your pockets it’s 120
million times more powerful and what
landed Rock you know people on the moon
right and we’re just looking at it to
see what the Instagram post is you know
you can do wonderful things and if I can
finish and just you know you said the
last question do you have enough time to
put a little bit of roundabouts this
okay you know what what lynn ostrom
won the Nobel for was showing that
indigenous peoples can cooperate to
protect their environment the tragedy of
the Commons doesn’t have to happen but
what David Sloan Wilson did in an
article with Lynn before she died my
colleague David and I’ve written a
couple books she’s a very close
colleague of evolutionary biologist at
Binghamton as he showed that this
follows the same principles of what’s
called multi-level selection which is
that higher levels of organization can
be themselves selected as long as the
lower levels or
taken care of but are not allowed to be
selfish so for example you got 37
trillion cells in your body right mm-hmm
not counting the gut biome which is you
weigh more than that if any one of them
says hey I just would like more of me
yeah well you’ve got the c-word and your
body will detect the early transcription
errors it’ll try to repair it if it
still won’t behave it’ll try to kill the
cell while functioning immune system
right so the basic message there is
we’ll all work together I’ll cooperate
you’ll do pretty well cell because I’m
gonna feed you you do a lot better than
you would out on your own but you can’t
be selfish if you’re selfish I’m gonna
rain you back in a little transcription
correction and if that’s not adequate
I’m gonna kill you I’m gonna set up a
job well we have the same thing going on
culturally right and we have the same
thing going on inside us not just with
cells but when you talked about
comparison mm-hmm that’s like a little
part of you you have that capability
right and you want it you want that part
of you that can compare because if
you’re thinking through how should I do
theirs next podcast you got to be able
to imagine a future that’s never been
you haven’t done the podcast and weigh
it in your mind and pick a good route
forward right so you want that capacity
but you don’t want to feed that to the
point that it starts eating the whole of
you now you’ve got a psychological
cancer and so can you allow it to
succeed to be used where it’s useful all
of these things ego you know pushing
away emotions there are some
circumstances let me give you one from
the research literature I was a little
surprised when I first saw it because
being open to your emotions is more
helpful in almost every area of life and
then here comes this study I mean thirty
hundreds of studies they probably now
we’re headed close to a thousand on
experience avoidance our name for
running away from emotions sensations
and memories needlessly and here comes
this anomaly ambulance drivers while
they’re out on their drive
do better if when they get out of that
ambulance they can suppress their
emotions
well of course mm-hmm I don’t want some
my ambulance driver crying those are the
brains on the street over here when this
person over here might be saved
so all of these little parts of us have
a role can we treat them with kind of
kindness and and use them and they’re
useful and let them go when they’re not
which is kind of like finding a way to
help produce healthy cooperation and
then can we scale that same sense
between you and your spouse you and your
spouse and your kids your family and
your neighborhood your neighborhood in
your city your city in your state your
state in your country your country in
the world
you start thinking this way and
everything gets global and don’t we know
that if there’s a climate crisis dude
you can’t sort of like draw some little
imaginary thing and go say well this is
a US of A I mean come on you know your
sky is darkening from what happened in
the windstorm and in the Middle East
yeah and and the same thing with what
we’re seeing with violence and
immigration and you know the clash
between us religious traditions and so
here’s my message is that
let’s take Western science to focus on
these individual psychological processes
but then that are healthy that that
essentially are like rules of engagement
how we can have a cacophony within how
we can have multiple cells how we can
have different parts of us and integrate
them in a way that they all get to
succeed but only by cooperating that
voice that wags its finger I want
sometimes but I don’t want it dominate
in my life I did that I know what
happens it’s a train wreck everybody
listening to be knows it because when
you’ve let that run you’ve got like the
psychological equipment of cancer but
it’s the same thing with your
relationships your family or community
your business can you find a way for
your success to be embedded in the
success of small groups
and then in groups of groups and then
the group’s of groups of groups where
the same rules apply and that’s the last
chapter of the book but it’s sort of the
spirit of the whole of the book make
those reeds make and know how it works
man we have so many more tools than just
a lecture or you know something that our
priest Minister rabbi might say to us or
my mom as important as that is Western
science has a role in producing and
disseminating wisdom – and we’re gonna
do it one little study at a time and I
hope people find something in the book
that his powerful uplifting in that way
I really think they will dr. Hayes we
held this interview to the wall I mean I
can’t believe how much we got out of
this conversation in just a little over
an hour and just you know from my
personal recommendation I would highly
recommend that you go and pick up this
book it’s called a liberated mind how to
pivot toward what matters my guest is
dr. Steven C Hayes and dr. Hayes why
don’t you also give your website where
people can find your work how can they
reach you are you are you on tour are
you giving a big book tour or doing
lectures or any of those things
I’m not yet on a book tour but I’m
talking with people who want me to talk
but I’m you know if they go to Steven C
Hayes comm they can find things of use
I’ll send them a little seven item kind
of a freebie thing of an act if they
don’t you want that they can go and go
over to /a – liberated – mind all
lowercase and there’s tools there’s
things that give away there’s freebies
and you don’t have to go in if you don’t
want to go into a you know like me
capturing or email and blah blah blah
I don’t spam people but if you don’t
want to just go there and I’ll give you
the freebies and including an awesome I
mean an awesome book drawn by my 28 year
old daughter man you got to see her
depiction of the dictator within I mean
you will you will not forget it it’s an
awesome image
and so you know but but how do I also
say it’s not all about me act is out
there if you just put in psychological
flexibility experience avoidance Act
you’re gonna find a vast network of
people who are trying to put
transformational processes into humans
lives one little database step at a time
and the reason we have a lot to say is
we’ve been doing it for 40 years mostly
under the radar screen mm-hmm but times
up it’s too important and there’s too
many things happening in our culture and
so you know I’m stepping forward and its
best way I can to let people know that
there’s something of use here not out of
some arrogant you know
mimimi way but in a way that it’s just a
little flashlight on here’s something
that might be useful check it out try it
out and very quickly you may sense
there’s something in there for me and if
so there’s a lot of supports out there
from my website on down perfect dr.
Hayes stick with me while I do this
close for me for a second guys thank you
so much for listening to this episode
once again the book is called
a liberated mind my guest dr. Steven C
Hayes this was such a phenomenal
opposite Wow usually what we do after
the episodes is we have a discord server
it’s just a community server that we run
and so if you’re if you’re listening to
this and you made it through the end and
you’re listening to my voice right now
you can find that link in the
description of this video and you can
get over to that area of our community
and I will be in there we’ll discuss how
the episode went but uh guys that’s
gonna do it for us here at a check back
for you next week or sorry not next mate
we actually haven’t have an interview
tomorrow night
we have a double-header this week we’ll
have dr. Daniel Amen on the show
tomorrow night so hopefully you tune in
for that and if you’re listening to this
via the podcast version please get over
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so much for listening and being here
without your presence, this would not be
possible we are going to get out of here
see you tomorrow night 8 p.m.
Eastern Time thank you so much